Convolution?

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fisherking111
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Convolution?

Post by fisherking111 » Sat May 03, 2014 10:48 pm

Has anybody here experimented with and/or mastered the art of convolution?

I started a thread in "general gear" about how I love the sound of 80s and early to mid 90s ADCs and DACs.

Would it be possible to just sample a noise burst or sine sweep through an old Alesis Quadraverb or Ensoniq or Akai Sampler, and then use that in a convolution effect in software on top of any sound or synth to achieve the sound of that hardware unit's ADC/DAC?

Thoughts?

Any other interesting use of convolution (non-reverb) you've looked into?

The Plogue Chipcrusher seems to be doing a bit of this to achieve the sound of something coming out of your mid 90s built in computer tower speaker and 1970 arcade machine... http://www.plogue.com/downloads/#chipcrusher
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Post by haven » Sun May 04, 2014 12:13 am

Check out this thread. viewtopic.php?t=110902

The software they are talking about uses convolution to sample all kinds of gear like tape machines, transformers and EQ. People sell impulse packs of high end gear they have sampled into it.

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Post by fisherking111 » Sun May 04, 2014 1:21 am

this is a link to convolution software?

art project? or both?
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Post by Ginko » Sun May 04, 2014 1:22 am

Not quite what you are looking for but I was asking for advice on convolution reverbs on here a short while ago and got recommended Valhalla DSP - they have a retro reverb that has 70s and 80s hardware simulation - I think the vst is ok but I rarely use those modes
Last edited by Ginko on Sun May 04, 2014 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by fisherking111 » Sun May 04, 2014 1:22 am

The Missy Elliot remix in box 1B (column, row) sounds like skipping CD.

This is related to convolution?
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Post by Ginko » Sun May 04, 2014 1:24 am

fisherking111 wrote:
this is a link to convolution software?

art project? or both?
Haha that website is a bit wtf? :hihi:

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Post by thetwlo » Sun May 04, 2014 1:27 am

fisherking111 wrote:
this is a link to convolution software?

art project? or both?
both, click on the first "block" it will start the dl but mac only.

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Post by fisherking111 » Sun May 04, 2014 1:27 am

haven wrote:Check out this thread. viewtopic.php?t=110902

The software they are talking about uses convolution to sample all kinds of gear like tape machines, transformers and EQ. People sell impulse packs of high end gear they have sampled into it.
Nebula3 looks pretty rad, however, there are free convolution algs, like the one in Csound that you can load your own impulse response or sine sweep into.

Does Nebula3 encourage, allow people to sample their own noise bursts/sine sweeps through gear?

I'm interested in capturing the sound of DACs and ADCs I know and love already. Has anyone here done this before?


Thanks!
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Post by fisherking111 » Sun May 04, 2014 1:31 am

thetwlo wrote:
fisherking111 wrote:
this is a link to convolution software?

art project? or both?
both, click on the first "block" it will start the dl but mac only.
Cool, I'll check out out.

There's also a scientific paper on chaos theory on this site.

The first block is a convolution plugin?


A description of your experience and use of this would be helpful.
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Post by fisherking111 » Sun May 04, 2014 1:36 am

That website brings back memories of discovering Gieskes' old mindfuck myspace page from Autechre's non-myspace page.


Anyone here ever make an IR not related to reverb tho?

It seems like the same principle should apply...

I already have a couple of convolution reverbs (csound, m4l), just need confirmation if this the right approach to "capture a sound" of a hardware DAC?
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Post by Ginko » Sun May 04, 2014 3:39 am

fisherking111 wrote:
There's also a scientific paper on chaos theory on this site.
Sweet! Will dip into this properly later

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Post by Ginko » Sun May 04, 2014 3:47 am

If I can find it...

peripatitis

Post by peripatitis » Sun May 04, 2014 3:52 am

I've been playing a lot with this, not for reverberation though.
if you are into max you might try hisstools by alex harker, pretty much everything you need to experiment with the technique

http://cycling74.com/2011/08/25/convolu ... -workshop/

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Post by Ginko » Sun May 04, 2014 4:25 am

The mangle software is fun!

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Post by listentoaheartbeat » Sun May 04, 2014 4:52 am

You can measure any audio transmission chain and use the impulse response for convolution effects. I really like exciters and contact mics with various objects and materials, for example.

I use sine sweeps for measurement as it increases the SNR. MLS (Maximal Length Sequence) measurements are even better, but I think when you are looking for effects and experimentation it's not worth the effort.

You will need to deconvolve the sine sweep measurement in order to get the impulse response. Lots of the convolution effect plug-ins include a deconvolver, but there are also stand-alone options.

If you are on PC, the Voxengo Deconvolver works very well:

http://www.voxengo.com/product/deconvolver/

On Mac, there is FuzzMeasure (have not tested this):

http://www.supermegaultragroovy.com/pro ... zzMeasure/

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Post by 101010oxo » Sun May 04, 2014 7:06 am

Image

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Post by fisherking111 » Sun May 04, 2014 7:42 am

great links. thanks!
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Post by leeski » Sun May 04, 2014 8:35 am

Hello i love this stuff for reverb and use Nebula tape
This was real good http://www.tritonedigital.com/index.php ... &Itemid=20
But it's dated they never ported it itel mac's damn hippies

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Post by thetwlo » Sun May 04, 2014 11:58 am

oh, also Speakerphone is fun:
http://www.audioease.com/Pages/Speakerp ... phone.html

and McDSP has something similar:
http://mcdsp.com/plug-ins/futzbox/

oh, and as the Argeïphontes Lyre software isn't very clear, "Faltung in Zeit" is the convolution process.

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Post by madronalabs » Sun May 04, 2014 1:21 pm

Convolution can only reproduce the parts of audio processes that are linear time invariant (LTI). While this is good for certain things, like capturing the reverb of a complicated room recorded by a stationary mic, it is really bad for other things. The sounds of a distorting preamp or the liveness of algorithmic reverbs are examples where convolution doesn't work. The preamp because we like the nonlinear bits, and the reverb because we like the time-variant bits.

So, using convolution to capture the sound of an older DAC? My guess is is that it would be disappointing. The interesting qualities an older DAC has are likely to be from digital quantization and subtle nonlinearities in the analog parts, neither of which the IR will capture. But hey, try it and find out.

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Post by secretkillerofnames » Sun May 04, 2014 8:49 pm

fisherking111 wrote: Nebula3 looks pretty rad, however, there are free convolution algs, like the one in Csound that you can load your own impulse response or sine sweep into.

Does Nebula3 encourage, allow people to sample their own noise bursts/sine sweeps through gear?

I'm interested in capturing the sound of DACs and ADCs I know and love already. Has anyone here done this before?
Nebula3 Pro comes with NAT software to extract responses from gear and yes it is encouraged - not only is their a community producing and sharing free stuff but also a fairly deep pro/am marketplace associated with it.

I'm not sure if it is technically impulse responses though. If you check the article linked my first post in that thread it explains the technique better than I can but my understanding is that the Nebula approach creates multiple snapshots of a signal whereas IRs are essentially static single snapshots.

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Post by fisherking111 » Sun May 04, 2014 10:55 pm

Wow! That does sound pretty awesome!

and multiple snapshots sounds like it would produce a more accurate sonic signature of a device than a single IR...

Thanks for the info dude!
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Post by fisherking111 » Sun May 04, 2014 10:57 pm

madronalabs wrote:Convolution can only reproduce the parts of audio processes that are linear time invariant (LTI). While this is good for certain things, like capturing the reverb of a complicated room recorded by a stationary mic, it is really bad for other things. The sounds of a distorting preamp or the liveness of algorithmic reverbs are examples where convolution doesn't work. The preamp because we like the nonlinear bits, and the reverb because we like the time-variant bits.

So, using convolution to capture the sound of an older DAC? My guess is is that it would be disappointing. The interesting qualities an older DAC has are likely to be from digital quantization and subtle nonlinearities in the analog parts, neither of which the IR will capture. But hey, try it and find out.
Thanks for the insight Randy.

I will keep my expectations low for now. Gonna do some experiments this week probably, and I'll update you all with the results.
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Post by fisherking111 » Sun May 04, 2014 11:53 pm

Ok, just did an experiment getting 4 different impulses from noise bursts through my Quadraverb, then A/B'd the results running it through the max 4 live convolution reverb (which I also used to get the impulses).

The results sound nothing at all like the orignal, but do add an interesting transient to the sound I'm running through (a DX7 preset sample).

This makes me interested to experiment more with convolution, but I think Randy is right... the non-linear aspects and digital quantization of the DAC is probably something which convolution alone cannot capture...

interesting results nonetheless! I added a couple m4l lfos to modulate the convultion parameter for predelay and panning, and it sounds pretty awesome!
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