Ableton Live- I cannot believe how bad the Arranger is !!

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Blingley
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Post by Blingley » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:55 pm

Panason wrote: I don't think there is another DAW ever made with a linear mode that has this insane behaviour. I would so love to know the thought process behind this design choice!
A fair amount of trackers (FamiTracker for one) always start from the beginning of the pattern you are editing, unless you use a specific hotkey to start where the editing cursor is.

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Post by arthurdent » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:22 pm

GEE, which pickup truck is better, a Ford or a Chevy???

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Re: Ableton Live- I cannot believe how bad the Arranger is !

Post by hamildad » Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:44 am

babybrown wrote:You have to press Shift + Space to resume from where you stopped...
If you've ever DJed with Live, you learn that keypress real quick....
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Post by forestcaver » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:24 am

To be honest - I really love Live. The only thing that really annoys me is that Live 9 is no longer able to run on a Mac (with the latest OS). Live 9 is only 6 years old!

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Post by orangehexagon » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:17 pm

The playback always starts back where you have your cursor, which i find much more useful than the point where the transport was stopped.

Live isn't perfect, but hell it's lightyears better than all the software used to make all those aphex twin albums that everyone loves.

"It's a poor craftsman that blames his tools"

@Panason -- if you spent half the time you do complaining on forums, you might actually make some good music.

And of course we won't get any thoughtful responses from Panason, since they seem to use this forum as their own personal toilet.

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Post by Panason » Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:48 pm

"It's a poor craftsman that blames his tools"
Yes I know you can make masterpieces using nothing but spliced tape loops...

I am here to discuss the imperfect tools- don't like it , Ignore.
I'm sorry I'm not an accomplished producer- maybe you need a VIP forum.

If you think Live's transport behaviour (and how it works with hardware controllers using the Mackie protocol) is acceptable then good on ya.
If you've ever DJed with Live, you learn that keypress real quick....
Yeah unless you like DJing using equipment with, you know, a proper Start/Stop button, and not a computer keyboard and a key combination for the most basic function.

These aren't complaints, because this isn't the Ableton complaints department. These are criticisms and a warning: Ableton sucks if you want to work on a timeline! :party:

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Post by arthurdent » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:23 am

Panason wrote:Ableton sucks if you want to work on a timeline! :party:
So help me out here. Ableton sells a lot of product, and people seem to be using it successfully as far as I can tell, at least from the comments I've seen here and on other discussion venues. So I would guess that working on a timeline is not the ONLY way to achieve something. Or are all of the people using Ableton unaware that there are "better" ways to do things? Maybe you could help us, possibly put together some sort of training/instructional program, set up a website or utiize YouTube, maybe even go on the road, hit the big shows -NAAM, Knobcon, etc - so that you can share your wealth of knowledge and experience with us and bring us up to a better level.

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Post by commodorejohn » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:34 am

It's not a software discussion on the Internet until somebody tells somebody else "well, I don't have a problem with this, so clearly it's all on you!"
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Post by arthurdent » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:04 pm

commodorejohn wrote:It's not a software discussion on the Internet until somebody tells somebody else "well, I don't have a problem with this, so clearly it's all on you!"
No, that's not what I'm saying. In Panason's opening salvo, he's says that Ableton is garbage because it's doesn't work the way he expected it to work:
Panason wrote:How the hell this garbage has become some kind of industry standard is beyond me.
The fact that a lot of people use Ableton successfully doesn't make the product garbage, it just means that his preferred style of working is different than the product configuration of Ableton. From reading his post, it appears that he started a (significant?) project with a new software before he was familiar with it; to me this indicates lack of preparation on his part and now he's trying to blame Ableton for it.

In MY opinion it's a:

Mac vs. PC
Ford vs. Chevy
S&W vs. Ruger
Browns vs. Steelers
he-said/she-said

kind of argument.

If something doesn't work for you but it does for a lot of other people, don't blame the something!

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Post by orangehexagon » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:22 pm

forestcaver wrote:To be honest - I really love Live. The only thing that really annoys me is that Live 9 is no longer able to run on a Mac (with the latest OS). Live 9 is only 6 years old!
That is by no means Ableton's fault. This is all a result of Apple's brazen OS release.

peripatitis

Post by peripatitis » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:45 pm

francoprussian wrote:
I could go on. Them and Cycling 74 deserve each other, a load of namby happy clappers who don't make organised extensible future-proof products.
what's the issue with Cycling74?

peripatitis

Post by peripatitis » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:53 pm

Ableton's problem is quite classic. It just started from another origin.
Cubase started as a midi program and it sucked for audio editing for ages,
Samplitude started as an audio editing program and sucked in midi for ages,
Ableton started as a clip remixing thingy for Dj's,
and the list goes on.

However all of them got under the daw ubrella, with shared blame between developers of the software and their marketing colleagues (magazines, websites, blogs, etc) at some point regardless.
And yes Ableton is very popular and probably the easiest program out there to start and writing something (it used to be Cubase), so there is a role out there for it.

Btw everyone with some sense understands that Live's arrangement view sucks, there is nothing new in that.

peripatitis

Post by peripatitis » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:18 pm

But if you think about it, it is the customers problem as well and it ends up being a very difficult balance to keep.

We cannot accept a tool for what it is and often ask a million features from other daws. Live would be a perfect app without the arrangement window.
Samplitude the first program working non linearly with the objects did not need a vca, vsti's, etc.
Very few apps kept true to themselves (renoise is one of them) and it is hard to fault them for not being what they shouldn't be in the first place.

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Post by dubonaire » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:47 pm

peripatitis wrote:But if you think about it, it is the customers problem as well and it ends up being a very difficult balance to keep.

We cannot accept a tool for what it is and often ask a million features from other daws. Live would be a perfect app without the arrangement window.
Samplitude the first program working non linearly with the objects did not need a vca, vsti's, etc.
Very few apps kept true to themselves (renoise is one of them) and it is hard to fault them for not being what they shouldn't be in the first place.
I agree with this. Every single piece of gear in my studio has some kind of limitation. In fact everything I own has some kind of limitation. It's a bit odd to think that products should have everything you can dream of in them. It's a conceited view really and these limitations don't seem to stop people making music.

I don't have a big problem with Live's arrangement view and with multiclip midi editing and improved automation in 10 the problems are even less pronounced. I know some producers tend to do the final mix down in other DAWs but the reasons they state are often not to do with arrangement view limitations.

I suppose I'm so used to the Ableton workflow now. I actually tend to do composition using scenes and follow on in session view.

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Post by vromr » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:54 pm

Editing in Ableton is juvenile compared to Logic Pro & Cubase.
How's this ClyphX Pro for customizing default behavior?
https://isotonikstudios.com/product/clyphx-pro/
I haven't used it much yet, but I venture it will get me past :bang: when the time comes.

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Post by scozbor » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:04 pm

dubonaire wrote: In fact everything I own has some kind of limitation.
The phuture is so exciting! ONE device with NO LIMITATIONS! :hyper: :lol:

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Post by francoprussian » Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:50 am

peripatitis wrote:
francoprussian wrote:
I could go on. Them and Cycling 74 deserve each other, a load of namby happy clappers who don't make organised extensible future-proof products.
what's the issue with Cycling74?
They are quite incapable of differentiating the relative locations of the arse and the elbow.

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arthurdent
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Post by arthurdent » Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:34 am

francoprussian wrote:
peripatitis wrote:
francoprussian wrote:
I could go on. Them and Cycling 74 deserve each other, a load of namby happy clappers who don't make organised extensible future-proof products.
what's the issue with Cycling74?
They are quite incapable of differentiating the relative locations of the arse and the elbow.
So now that you've gotten that off of your chest, how about telling us factually what is wrong with Cycling74. Or are you just going to be as cryptic and ascerbic as Panason?

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Post by francoprussian » Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:56 am

Acerbic seems a bit strong for a simple coinage of phrase.

Cryptic i can 7a0c3ac0d35f7d3b985ef0e678fab3f36ef28c158cc62d095183e9589d084ae5 with.

Can't be bothered to list all the issues for you. So long and thanks for all the fish.

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Post by Martebar » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:22 am

Well that was a constructive read!

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Post by djphoto7896@me.com » Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:14 am

:bang:

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Post by ZargZorg » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:09 pm

Love Ableton, don't even use clip view unless I'm recreating a track live.
It's an amazing sampler 1st and most of all.
Shift + space rules.

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Post by Riggar » Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:00 am

Panason Also, some After Effects for work. All this software features linear editing on a timeline and behaves like a tape machine as one would expect.

You said it - 'behaves like a tape machine' - haven't touched Cubase since V 5.0 - a truly awful piece of software - with the most idiosyncratic menu system - multi diving to huge depths of levels often scattered across a number of different menus in itself. Then I realised that it (Cubase) and many other DAWs at that time seemed to have one over arching goal - to mimic a classic tape based studio. Fine for no doubt a large number of people who grew up with tape recording, a stereo machine, then 4 track (remember the old TEACs - please don't sigh), then the Tascam Portastudio (pretty hideous all round), then Fostex 8 track (everyone wanted one), then the 16 ......

Thank god for Ableton that broke that mould. I didn't grow up with tape recording so I have no expectations or desire for software to look and behave like that. Ableton IS different and people reject it because it takes a new approach - which is fine. Now where did I put that tape splicer .....

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