AIRA modular doesn't work with iOS 13. Roland doesn't care.

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AIRA modular doesn't work with iOS 13. Roland doesn't care.

Post by Tumulte » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:32 am

Hey,

I've filed a comprehensive bug report to Roland, because their Aira customizer stopped working with iOs 13 beta…

…their answer

"Hello sir,

it is possible that the torcido won't work with iOS 13"

Quite frankly I'd have been less offended by a middle finger on my face.

If you're a owner of such device (Torcido, Bitrazer, Scooper or Demora) what can we do to force them to upgrade the software ?

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Post by ranix » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:10 am

business as usual from Roland

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Post by ym2612 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:59 am

ranix wrote:business as usual from Roland
and Apple

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Post by Yes Powder » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:23 pm

That sucks, but this isn't new behavior for Roland- or the industry in general. :despair:
This is exactly why you should never trust hardware that has a software element to it.
And if you ever must get a piece of gear that relies on software running on another device, plan on never upgrading that device again.

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Re: AIRA modular doesn't work with iOS 13. Roland doesn't ca

Post by arthurdent » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:28 pm

Tumulte wrote:Hey,

I've filed a comprehensive bug report to Roland, because their Aira customizer stopped working with iOs 13 beta…

…their answer

"Hello sir,

it is possible that the torcido won't work with iOS 13"

Quite frankly I'd have been less offended by a middle finger on my face.

If you're a owner of such device (Torcido, Bitrazer, Scooper or Demora) what can we do to force them to upgrade the software ?
A lot of this type of stuff is Apple's fault. They change/update/modify their operating systems so frequently now that other companies can't (i.e., don't have the resources) or don't want to bother with updating - and then testing/verifying - their drivers/firmware every 6-12 months. I run both Apple and Windows computers at home, have had this conversation with a number of vendors over the last few years. Things went to hell at Apple when Jobs died and Tim Cook took over.

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Post by mskala » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:03 pm

Yes Powder wrote:This is exactly why you should never trust hardware that has a software element to it.
It's why you should insist on free software, with source code.

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Post by Gonzbull » Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:39 pm

I believe the development of software(Apple) shouldn't be held hostage by slack developers(Roland). Quite a few companies don't bother with software upgrades. They make something that works and call it a day. No added features, system optimisations or keeping up with hardware advancements.

Very sad actually as it renders gear obsolete when it shouldn't.

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Post by Astrolabe23 » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:12 pm

This is nothing new to Windows users. I can't even count the number of times I have been forced to buy new hardware ( midi & audio interfaces ) because it is made obsolete only a few years after purchase due To changes in OS and changes in card slots or connections. For the Roland ARIA modules I have repurposed a 5 year old cheap android tablet to run the customizer. For my setup, I do not need to use the USB to my main computer to do what I want.

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Post by Tumulte » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:21 pm

mskala wrote:
Yes Powder wrote:This is exactly why you should never trust hardware that has a software element to it.
It's why you should insist on free software, with source code.
Sadly this is no solution. It’s been 30 years of floss and companies will never risk to share industrial secrets (or potential income). Also an open source software without any dev to maintain it is as good as closed... (It’s not magic : time and skills are required )

Also if the source is open but the documentation is inexistant or gone it gets thousand times more painful.

So yeah, public outrage and bad press remains the best option.

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Post by ranix » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:26 pm

Gonzbull wrote:I believe the development of software(Apple) shouldn't be held hostage by slack developers(Roland). Quite a few companies don't bother with software upgrades. They make something that works and call it a day. No added features, system optimisations or keeping up with hardware advancements.

Very sad actually as it renders gear obsolete when it shouldn't.
mskala wrote:
Yes Powder wrote:This is exactly why you should never trust hardware that has a software element to it.
It's why you should insist on free software, with source code.
I totally agree with both these wigglers. If Roland wasn't slacking they'd provide the source code for their application. If they don't have the resources to ensure their software works long-term, they don't have the resources to be releasing closed-source applications. Put it on github like everybody else with a brain

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Post by mskala » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:31 pm

Tumulte wrote:Sadly this is no solution. It’s been 30 years of floss and companies will never risk to share industrial secrets (or potential income).
Well, there are companies in the synth business that do release source code for software and firmware, and technical documentation like schematics for hardware. Mine is one, and I don't think it has hurt my profits although it also hasn't helped as much as I'd hoped it would. It's true that just having this information doesn't magically make the equipment maintainable; but having the source and documentation open is a necessary condition for maintainability even if it's not a sufficient condition. I wish more customers would make this issue a priority in their buying decisions. I don't really expect it to happen.

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Post by Yes Powder » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:33 pm

mskala wrote:Well, there are companies in the synth business that do release source code for software and firmware, and technical documentation like schematics for hardware. Mine is one, and I don't think it has hurt my profits although it also hasn't helped as much as I'd hoped it would.
I think there's a matter of scale to be considered here; as you're comparing yourself— a small Eurorack manufacturer— to a multi-hundred-million dollar publicly traded company.
No company at their scale will ever do that because "iNdUsTrY sEcReTs" and doing so would most likely be a suicide in the eyes of their shareholders. Only way something like this would fly with them is if all their competitors were getting on board too, and from where we're standing now, that's an absurdly long way off. Most of the people who would care about this kind of thing have already discovered smaller companies (like yourself) that don't do their users dirty like that and wouldn't care enough at this point to advocate, and there are still tens of thousands of jerkoffs just getting into music who have never been burned, buying their first [insert major brand here] synth at Guitar Center, who actually believe that having half of the controls on an app is a good thing and won't make their shiny new piece of gear a paperweight in four or five years.
Forced obsolescence is part of their business model now. That's why they refuse to do a direct reissue of the TB303, even though it'd make them a ton of money in the short-term, and be a relatively simple undertaking for a company of their size. Despite its initial failure, it had enough staying power to experience a sort of renaissance years later. They don't want that; they're playing the long game now. They don't any of their current lineup to still be passed around on the used market in 40 year. They want their users to be buying the "latest and greatest" new from them, because they don't make money off the used market.

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Post by thetwlo » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:17 pm

ym2612 wrote:
ranix wrote:business as usual from Roland
and Apple
yup, done buying anything that "works" with Apple, it won't in a year or two.
Why would a maker keep updating their software, for a product that no longer is supported? Or they never made money off it??
If Apple gave a shit about audio they'd help resurrect the great ones they killed with OSX. It wouldn't cost them much.
Or, the great ones killed with later versions on OSX.

This is on Apple, they need to keep these apps working, or, why support them if your shit will be useless after a couple updates, or years.
Not buying another ipad for that reason. No more apps! dumb.

(and never owned a windows machine, a mac plus and now a mini)

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Post by ranix » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:00 pm

Yes Powder wrote:I think there's a matter of scale to be considered here; as you're comparing yourself— a small Eurorack manufacturer— to a multi-hundred-million dollar publicly traded company.
No company at their scale will ever do that because "iNdUsTrY sEcReTs" and doing so would most likely be a suicide in the eyes of their shareholders.
that's right, the small tiny companies who barely make a living can afford to give stuff away for free and the multi-million dollar publicly traded companies with swimming pools full of money they waste on the daily can't afford to take such an insane risk

no, wait. That's not right. It's obviously stupid. Stop paying money for garbage

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Post by dubonaire » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:51 pm

I have an iPad that I keep at iOS 10.

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Post by Tumulte » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:06 am

mskala wrote:
Tumulte wrote:Sadly this is no solution. It’s been 30 years of floss and companies will never risk to share industrial secrets (or potential income).
Well, there are companies in the synth business that do release source code for software and firmware, and technical documentation like schematics for hardware. Mine is one, and I don't think it has hurt my profits although it also hasn't helped as much as I'd hoped it would. It's true that just having this information doesn't magically make the equipment maintainable; but having the source and documentation open is a necessary condition for maintainability even if it's not a sufficient condition. I wish more customers would make this issue a priority in their buying decisions. I don't really expect it to happen.
Scale is a big factor indeed. I forgot to mention : time. I've worked in a so-called open-source company for a while. They used open source for sure, but we (employees) never had time to publish and document our code (ie: taking care of sensitive bits (ideally without breaking stuffs in the process), replacing made-for-our-own-tools bits by generic ones (ideally without breaking stuffs in the process), packaging the thing properly (ideally without breaking stuffs in the process)…)

My point here : if it's not done from the get go, it'll never happen.

But I guess it's more Apple's fault than Roland's really. Aira Modular is long discontinued after all, and the desktop app works fine

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Post by Panason » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:45 am

It is entirely your fault for updating the iPad, and to a beta OS! :doh:
Gonzbull wrote:I believe the development of software(Apple) shouldn't be held hostage by slack developers(Roland)..
Yes, it is better to have Apple keeping everyone else hostage and adding tons of gear to landfills annually with their planned obsolescence tactics.

But... it does work in favour of those not drinking the Kool Aid as "legacy" audio interfaces get sold off for cheap by all the eager OS update fans!
Last edited by Panason on Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Keltie » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:50 am

Forced obsolescence: the work of the devil, and it will cost the earth. I’ll say no more because politics.

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Post by Tumulte » Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:43 am

(on a sidenote : "planned obsolescence" is not the issue here. Actually, this kind of problems is what would make someone decide to NOT change their device.

The problem is that Apple is entirely dedicated to an aggressive "as easy as it can get" strategy. That's actually not a trivial user experience problem : a fully customizable experience can easily be confusing and error prone. Simple UI are intuitive but you'd better not need anything out of the ordinary.

That's probably why they don't bother with retro-compatibility and/or confusing "compatible mode. Also, that's a huge money saver : retro-compatibility can make everything exponentially complex (ever wonder why there's no windows 9 ? because of a retro-compatibility issue)

That was just to clarify things. Planned obsolescence is a thing. Apple definitely have an aggressive "passive planned obsolescence" (make people desire the new thing, even if the old one still works) in place. But here that's not the issue.)

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Post by CF3 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:47 am

This is definitely a Roland thing...

I’ve got an ipad full of music apps and I’m running the latest iPadOS. Haven’t had one app break yet (Not that Apple doesn’t break shit....they do). My ipad is an older unit too. It’s a discontinued product and Roland is definitely not going to support it. It’s one of many reason I don’t mess with Roland anymore. I’ve learned my lesson over the years. All these “plug out” systems of theirs will be bricks in 10 years. In fact, lots of companies do this. That’s why I keep a collection of old computers running OS9, 10.5, etc.

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Post by OMN » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:32 am

my two cents ;

Who will go into 40000 lines of code and deal with the compiler errors because the OS update and compiler does not match anymore ?

I don't know any electronic musicians who compile their software when they update the OS.

Even Max patches won't work after several years when not updated regularly.

Open source code snippets and frameworks ( well , the seriously backed ones are again released by tech giants, you never know what happens to others after years ) are useful for developers and not for electronic musicians.

Community backed open source development platforms are quite useful again for artists who can code, and there are serious application examples. But these platforms are not used for commercial software, so don't expect that Roland is gonna use Openframeworks for development and release the 1000s lines of code.

Last thing which comes to my mind, any serious digital filter, reverb etc. implementation is of course trade secret. So don't expect that NI is going to release some C++ DSP code as open source. If there are any , let me know :))

Yes, tech giants change theis OS every 6 months. And it is amazingly extra work on the shoulder of developers to keep up. And what about keeping the compatibility with older OS at the same time. That's a bigger mess..

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Post by arthurdent » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:22 pm

CF3 wrote:That’s why I keep a collection of old computers running OS9, 10.5, etc.
I have a couple of Macs that still run Mountain Lion 10.8.5, one on Snow Leopard, and a very old Power PC laptop on Tiger. Several of my Macs are set up with Windows through Bootcamp, with two of them still running WinXP. AND I have one old PC on the shelf that runs Win '98; haven't turned it on for awhile, wonder if the hard drive would even spin up...

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Re: AIRA modular doesn't work with iOS 13. Roland doesn't care.

Post by OHEXOH » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:55 am

I think it’s naive to think any piece of software will still work X years from now.

Despite their boutique line, Roland are far from being boutique, they should fix this. You can still buy these modules new FFS :despair:
Gear for sale (Reverb): https://bit.ly/2Sb90oc

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Re: AIRA modular doesn't work with iOS 13. Roland doesn't care.

Post by hamildad » Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:04 am

OHEXOH wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:55 am
I think it’s naive to think any piece of software will still work X years from now.

Despite their boutique line, Roland are far from being boutique, they should fix this. You can still buy these modules new FFS :despair:
They were discontinued 3 years ago....
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Re:

Post by Kattefjaes » Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:22 am

arthurdent wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:22 pm
CF3 wrote:That’s why I keep a collection of old computers running OS9, 10.5, etc.
I have a couple of Macs that still run Mountain Lion 10.8.5, one on Snow Leopard, and a very old Power PC laptop on Tiger. Several of my Macs are set up with Windows through Bootcamp, with two of them still running WinXP. AND I have one old PC on the shelf that runs Win '98; haven't turned it on for awhile, wonder if the hard drive would even spin up...
My Amiga 4000 is gathering dust, sadly. I don't dare try to boot it until I feel confident about recapping it.. it has been so long. Picasso IV graphics, 16 bit audio, full DMA SCSI, 68060. It used to be outrageous (..and used as a MIDI-triggered sample player, too).

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