Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

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Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by albiedamned » Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:00 pm

Has anyone done tests to compare the quality of the MIDI clock in various DAWs? I'm wondering if DAW x produces a steadier clock than DAW y. I realize there are other factors, such as the MIDI interface being used and USB vs DIN. In general, what combination of software and hardware has produced the best MIDI clock from a DAW for you?
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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by andybizarre » Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:17 pm

None at all. I got best my results in syncing stuff by mostly abandoning MIDI. Seriously, if it has to be MIDI clock, using a spare audio channel of your interface with things like USAMO or E-RMs Multiclock gives the the best, low jitter clocks. Heck, even the wonky BSP derives rock steady MIDI clocks via its analogue sync input.

I`m syncing with a custom Reaktor patch (basically a few Blocks and an ES-5 encoder) and some Expert Sleepers Modules (ES3, ES5 + 2x ESX 8GT expanders) and the difference to MIDI sync was like night and day.

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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by criticalmonkey » Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:30 pm

i think most the daws have fixed their midi issues
apple and microsoft have some midi issues in their implementations - i think as it seems to vary on an upgrade
crappy usb hubs seem to be a source of latency

i too use the expert sleepers stuff to control modular or modular controlling computer, but combine with midi - i can dead sample accurate sync a VI, the modular/pre midi gear and midi hardware with no issues on playback/tracking -
since most my work ends up being mixed in PT as audio, I always get a good look at sync
recording midi with a vi can be funky sometimes when buffers are set too high or my audio/vi track count is to high

btw I still use 2 motu usb midi timepieces - still works for me and makes having all my hardware setup easy
i have had issues with some of the usb devices that also act as interfaces but mostly cheap stuff that is getting old

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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by soon_come » Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:16 pm

criticalmonkey wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:30 pm
i too use the expert sleepers stuff to control modular or modular controlling computer, but combine with midi - i can dead sample accurate sync a VI, the modular/pre midi gear and midi hardware with no issues on playback/tracking -
since most my work ends up being mixed in PT as audio, I always get a good look at sync
recording midi with a vi can be funky sometimes when buffers are set too high or my audio/vi track count is to high
And what is the master clock source in this case / how is it outputting clock? I've found MIDI clock to be generally terrible from Ableton / FL Studio / Bitwig in terms of jitter. If you do this via USB MIDI (not through a decent interface), it gets even worse in most cases. These days I try to have the DAW slave to MIDI from a decent module (I'm using the FH-2), if it can. FL cannot slave; Ableton & Bitwig both can. The other option (if the DAW must be master) is to sample a pulse, max out its volume, and send it to an independent output straight to a clock input on the modular. This is "crude" but honestly works just fine, even if you don't have DC-coupled outputs on your soundcard. Any kind of clickish sound will work if you don't feel like using a short pulse, rim shot should work fine, just crank it...

In any case, I've definitely found MIDI timing to be very wonky coming from any modern computer. You can also measure this jitter if you want to convince yourself. I'd love to hear more about your setup, criticalmonkey - anything I can do to simplify my MIDI routing or make things a bit tighter would be very interesting to me. Thanks!

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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by pottering » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:48 am

soon_come wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:16 pm
criticalmonkey wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:30 pm
i too use the expert sleepers stuff to control modular or modular controlling computer, but combine with midi - i can dead sample accurate sync a VI, the modular/pre midi gear and midi hardware with no issues on playback/tracking -
since most my work ends up being mixed in PT as audio, I always get a good look at sync
recording midi with a vi can be funky sometimes when buffers are set too high or my audio/vi track count is to high
And what is the master clock source in this case / how is it outputting clock? I've found MIDI clock to be generally terrible from Ableton / FL Studio / Bitwig in terms of jitter. If you do this via USB MIDI (not through a decent interface), it gets even worse in most cases. These days I try to have the DAW slave to MIDI from a decent module (I'm using the FH-2), if it can. FL cannot slave; Ableton & Bitwig both can. The other option (if the DAW must be master) is to sample a pulse, max out its volume, and send it to an independent output straight to a clock input on the modular. This is "crude" but honestly works just fine, even if you don't have DC-coupled outputs on your soundcard. Any kind of clickish sound will work if you don't feel like using a short pulse, rim shot should work fine, just crank it...

In any case, I've definitely found MIDI timing to be very wonky coming from any modern computer. You can also measure this jitter if you want to convince yourself. I'd love to hear more about your setup, criticalmonkey - anything I can do to simplify my MIDI routing or make things a bit tighter would be very interesting to me. Thanks!
I don't think what you say about MIDI jitter in Ableton is true.

This page shows Ableton Live has correct MIDI timing, no jitter:

http://expressiveness.org/2012/12/04/midi-jitter

(Edit:)

https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/midi- ... es-control
Last edited by pottering on Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by soon_come » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:04 am

Believe what you want, it’s measurably true for any software DAW on a modern OS outputting MIDI clock as master, *especially* via MIDI over USB directly. You won’t notice it as much for notes / sequences, but you can hear it in clock signals even without measuring it. Try outputting a 24ppqn MIDI clock, use a MIDI to CV clock converter, then dividing it down to eight notes or whatever and have it trigger a simple drum sound.

I’m not dissing your choice of DAW, for the record. This isn’t anything special re: Ableton or any other DAW, it’s really just a deficiency of modern computers / multitasking and the ability to reliably time the pulses. If it doesn’t bother you, then great! But it’s measurable, and there are some factors which exacerbate it. Use a MIDI monitor or any tool you like to see for yourself.
Last edited by soon_come on Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by The Grump » Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:36 pm

Yeah, I'm going to have to go ahead and second that one on Ableton. The jitter and latency change when you switch devices in Live on or off. If you hover your cursor over a device, Live will even tell you what that device costs to process, measured in samples. So go ahead and use that little track delay setting discussed in the other recent thread addressing Live's timing, to line things up then power up another couple of devices, and listen to your alignment go directly to shit, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Basically, if you really want to maintain timing stability with Ableton, you should probably get one of these to sync your external sequencer with Live.

http://circuithappy.com/themissinglink/

And all of this is because from day one, when Robert and Gerhardt cooked up the Max patch that would become Live, it was all still basically built around an audio engine, with midi as kind of an afterthought.

However.... Logic, from the time is was Pipes and Bars has always been built upon the foundation of the midi environment, audio or no audio engine. Its timing is almost invariably better, but occasionally still leaves a little something to be desired. Now that being said, unfortunately, modern machines all kind of suck when it comes to midi timing because quite simply, the video invariably takes priority over the audio or midi timing in the processing cue of the CPU, which to me is completely and utterly fucking stupid, and there's no way to change that. Apple basically doesn't give a fuck because more people buy Macs to do video or other activities unrelated to audio, so they're not going to change the kernel to reprioritize, not even for their own audio software.

That's why I sequence external hardware with a hardware sequencer, and then record the audio into Live, and do my best to keep Live's midi activities to a bare minimum. Hope this helps.

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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by Kattefjaes » Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:12 pm

Even using a realtime-patched Linux kernel you're going to have issues. Any modern OS with a flexible scheduler and multitasking not built from the ground up to be an RTOS is going to have unpredictable micro-latency issues.

There's a reason a lot of studios kept old Atari STs around for years after they were obselete. Co-operative (shitty) multitasking in TOS meant that Cubase running on it had a far more predictable clock than similar software running on something with pre-emptive multasking/scheduling.

Ideally, you want your clock source to be something dumb and very accurate- and if possible, not even MIDI.

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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by criticalmonkey » Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:21 am

totally agree with the dream of perfection of a dedicated clock, but not gonna happen anytime soon so on we go

i clock off internal - midi and audio - 2011 mac, dp9 or protools - yes it does jitter (midi and audio) under some conditions but i can usually avoid easily, usually video/graphic related so i just hide the offender -

maybe midi 2.0 will fix it all

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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by Kattefjaes » Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:54 am

..or maybe it won't :twisted:

I don't see near-perfect sync over a bunch of devices over either side of D/A and A/D etc. without some kind of massive overkill, like having devices that support PTP natively. That's not going to be an option for a bunch of old analogue synths, nor much of the cheaper digital gear, as it needs non-trivial infrastructure.

I've seem sample accurate sync demonstrated between boxes in London and Manchester, a few years back- when you inverted one they nulled each other out gratifyingly too, which made for a cool demo. However, the system doing that was expensive and certainly not free of latency.

I think your approach of "make the best of it and sweep the rest under the carpet so it still looks and sounds good" sounds pragmatic and wise. Better to get the job done, move on with your life!

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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by hageir » Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:52 pm

Howdy,
you guys are overlooking a very important factor here;
protocol.

The USB protocol is just designed with a different use in mind (it sends messages in intvervals which causes delay/jitter and all that "jazz")
*a very informative thread is over at the Sequentix forum (albeit deep in the vaults somewhere)

FireWire on the other hand, I've found is much more stable (sometimes takes a few bars to lock up to external clock but is quite impressive)
then again it is an entirely different protocol, especially in the Macintosh environment. It has different priorities to the CPU and is well implemented.

But the timing of the DAW itself does play a large role. Ableton is a bit whacky, I'm gonna try to use MTC in the future
(I want my DAW clocked by an external source)

Audio Pulses are good as well but I feel the CV Tools are lacking in detailed control (one might need to edit the device in Max to make it better +accept different PPQN values)

I have so many clock converters, MIDI, analog pulse, DIN-Sync, FSK, Tape, SMPTE, MTC, etc.
I'm trying to cook up a method to create a DIY pseudo Innerclock Sync-Gen type of "locking". Any ideas?

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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by soon_come » Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:47 am

hageir wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:52 pm
Howdy,
you guys are overlooking a very important factor here;
protocol.

The USB protocol is just designed with a different use in mind (it sends messages in intvervals which causes delay/jitter and all that "jazz")
Like I said:
Believe what you want, it’s measurably true for any software DAW on a modern OS outputting MIDI clock as master, *especially* via MIDI over USB directly.

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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by LonzoB » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:00 pm

Just use this and be done. It's cheap. USB midi clock is not the problem - it's the operating system.

Image

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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by Kattefjaes » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:35 am

LonzoB wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:00 pm
Just use this and be done. It's cheap. USB midi clock is not the problem - it's the operating system.
Both are potentially the problem, in fact.

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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by soon_come » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:48 am

Kattefjaes wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:35 am
LonzoB wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:00 pm
Just use this and be done. It's cheap. USB midi clock is not the problem - it's the operating system.
Both are potentially the problem, in fact.
Indeed. And one can definitely exacerbate the other.

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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by Happyanimal » Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:50 pm

soon_come wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:48 am
Kattefjaes wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:35 am
LonzoB wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:00 pm
Just use this and be done. It's cheap. USB midi clock is not the problem - it's the operating system.
Both are potentially the problem, in fact.
Indeed. And one can definitely exacerbate the other.
It’s been my hope that all this is solved by the expert sleepers pieces if running Ableton in a hybrid environment- modular, midi clock, and midi notes. Would assume at that point that any discrepancies in the DAW app or hardware drivers are taken care of. Is that true in your experience?

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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by gruebleengourd » Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:23 am

I've tried every solution, and my favorite is the roland SBX-1. You get a standard latency and sharp timing nearly all the time, with the very rare duff buffer. Expert Sleepers is more accurate, but more finicky and I never enjoy using it. Hat's off to anyone who has it down.

I've switched over to doing all my midi using an mpc live as a hub host. It's still early days and has not been stressed, but so far it has been stress free. It's a bonus that it's trivial to setup 6 analog clock outs from it as well to sync up other sequencers etc.

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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by chriscarter » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:15 am

gruebleengourd wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:23 am
I've tried every solution, and my favorite is the roland SBX-1. You get a standard latency and sharp timing nearly all the time, with the very rare duff buffer... snip
Same here - tried all sorts but we settled on an SBX-1 ages ago, always rock solid and serves as a master clock to sync all our gear in the studio now - it sends (and receives) MIDI, USB, DIN Sync, modular CV/Gate. It also does Tap Tempo and can function as a standalone unit or driven by a DAW/USB. :tu:

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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by Graham Hinton » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:09 am

soon_come wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:48 am
Kattefjaes wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:35 am
LonzoB wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:00 pm
Just use this and be done. It's cheap. USB midi clock is not the problem - it's the operating system.
Both are potentially the problem, in fact.
Indeed. And one can definitely exacerbate the other.
Yes and that's what I said as soon as USB MIDI interfaces arrived, but I got shouted down by vested interests who had no product to sell without one. (Particularly when that product was advertising.)

There is absolutely no synchronisation between audio and MIDI under any OS. The only way that it can be locked is by using an audio track and then you have a buffer delay.

I created Gearbox to generate MIDI, DINSync and analogue clocks from any x24 tone and used wavtones to generate precise files to use in a DAW tempo map. (Each segment ends with a zero crossing so they may be butted together along a track.)

Using a sync tone has the same problems as when it was used to control tape machines, it is dependent on the audio path quality and any dropouts put you behind and any contact bounce puts you ahead. These are trivial problems and easily solved though, don't use dodgy cables.

I did work out a better way similar to using LTC to control tape machines, but I doubt there is a big market for it and whether I should put the work in developing it. Tell me I'm wrong.

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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by soon_come » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:19 am

Hi Graham,

Thanks for weighing in. I think this is one of those areas where people with the least experience (or people who haven't encountered sync issues themselves) claim that there is no such issue. It's overwhelming to think about solving this problem, so some people just throw their hands up and either deal with it or pretend it doesn't exist. Sometimes I just go with it and fix it in post, but one thing has become very clear to me over the years (first anecdotally, and then by measurement), and you hit the nail on the head:
There is absolutely no synchronisation between audio and MIDI under any OS. The only way that it can be locked is by using an audio track and then you have a buffer delay.
Whether that differential is acceptable to an individual is a different subject altogether. I'm not going to tell someone who doesn't notice/care that they need to care. If it's good enough for your music / you don't have an issue with it, then great! But it is indeed a real world problem.

Graham, I've never heard of your solution before but it looks minimal and elegant. I've tried / read exhaustively about the others (MIDIClock+/ MultiClock / Missing Link / Usamo / Klik / etc.) and the true weakness I see in them is that they require a plugin so that they can route audio data out via an interface. What happens when the plugin stops being supported? To me, these solutions honestly seem no better than the hackjob I do (and certainly more expensive): just send out a pulse/click very loud to one of my outputs. Doesn't have to be DC-coupled. I can control the clock rate directly, it's sample-accurate, and I don't have to load a plugin - I just trigger a sample.

Can you tell me more about how your solution works, and the differences between the two versions? It seems pretty minimal, direct, and very useful. The smaller one with the one adaptable DIN socket for MIDI (in *or* out??) looks really nice.

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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by Graham Hinton » Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:23 pm

soon_come wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:19 am
I've tried / read exhaustively about the others (MIDIClock+/ MultiClock / Missing Link / Usamo / Klik / etc.) and the true weakness I see in them is that they require a plugin so that they can route audio data out via an interface. What happens when the plugin stops being supported?
Yes, that is why it is dangerous basing solutions on a computer. Apple didn't warn any of their developers when they decided to remove serial ports, the first time they found out was when new models were announced. They don't care and that will never change. Strangely the Atari ST was popular for MIDI because Atari the company didn't care either, but at least the OS was in ROM and so it was a fixed goalpost. Those old OSes basically just loaded the program off disk for you and then you could take over the CPU and needn't make any OS calls if you didn't want to.

I've been burned by both bunches of so-and-soes and I only consider computer independent and future proof solutions now.
Can you tell me more about how your solution works, and the differences between the two versions? It seems pretty minimal, direct, and very useful. The smaller one with the one adaptable DIN socket for MIDI (in *or* out??) looks really nice.
You can read where the idea came from on this thread.

All the sockets and switches plug onto headers on the pcbs so you can take your pick what I/O features you need. There is nothing stopping you having, say, larger transport buttons on a different panel if you prefer. So one version is minimal and the other has everything, but you can have anything inbetween and the pcb could be mounted on the back of a case if you don't have the depth.

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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by MalteSteiner » Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:56 am

Quite some threads here about Midi Sync, Clocks and Jitter here lately. The solution I settled is audio quantisation in the DAW for my music projects where everything has to be locked to the grid. You might get around it with CV/Gate equipment but as soon as Midi involved ugly things happen. Several causes of jitter, starting with USB and its messaging prioritisation, the serial nature of the Midi protocol itself, till the reaction time in the receiving device which can be sloppy too.
From my tests so far the best audio quantisation is in Logic and Reason, Reaper is good but needs some editing. Ableton Live is astonishing bad, missing transients quite often. Bitwig has none as far I searched.

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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by albiedamned » Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:27 am

FYI, I've given up on any hope of using MIDI clock from DAW to sync to my Eurorack and other hardware. I've gone back to using my Expert Sleepers ES-3 and the Silent Way Sync plugin.
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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by M-Prod » Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:36 am

MalteSteiner wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:56 am
Bitwig has none as far I searched.
Bitwig has a flexible native plug-in to send clock pulses

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Re: Difference in MIDI clock quality between DAWs?

Post by Spindrift » Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:29 am

A bit interesting how we gone full circle. I remember how attractive a MIDI port on a synth was when they started appearing, and looking down at my synths with only CV inputs with displeasure. Nowadays it is completely opposite. I try to avoid MIDI as much as I can.

Of course back in the days MIDI was a lot more solid that it is today. Atari come with MIDI ports built in and timing was good. Today the situation is a lot worse, and if I relied on MIDI I would be looking for a hardware solution like the USAMO.

I try to stick to ramps as a way of syncing between DAW and external sequencers instead. Don't understand why it is not more common as a sync signal. In Bitwig I just modulate a CV Out with a saw LFO set to sync with playback, but you can just generate a ramp and have it on an audio track. Put that signal into a sequencer which supports CV control over index, and with a single signal I get complete control over playback to sync reverse and reset. Works great from really slow to audio rate. I guess one could use the same solution to generate a clock pulse as well with a module that can convert a ramp to pulses.

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