ES-9 standalone summing?

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dangayle
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by dangayle » Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:37 pm

mr_karlos wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:27 pm
dangayle wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:29 pm
I’m really curious if I can get my Faderfox MX12 + ES-9 to replace the core functionality of the WMD performance mixer. Can you configure the ES-9 to handle effects sends?
I have my ES-9 configured as an 8 into 2 mixer with two mono sends returning to two stereo aux channels. I also have master faders for master, phones, aux1 and aux 2.

The configuration is:
...

Hope this helps, I use this config a majority of the time
Karl
You, Karl, are my hero. This is really amazing and helps me understand what is going on. This should go into the manual, really.

The MX12 has two buttons that are typically mapped to solo and mute buttons, is there no way to map those like you mentioned with the Midi Designer? Or is Midi Designer automating volume settings behind the scenes when you hit mute?
Last edited by dangayle on Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AnalogueRoots
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by AnalogueRoots » Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:24 am

This is super cool Karl. I would happily pay for a copy of your template, for your effort, if there’s a way to share. I would like to do exactly this in standalone mode with my iPad. I imagine there would be no problem in automating some of this with midi messages from my NERDSEQ, and the faders on midi designer would update in response? As much as I would find it useful to work it out myself in midi designer pro, in terms of my own learning, I would more love to save some time for music making and learning my modules.

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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by dangriffiths » Fri Feb 19, 2021 4:09 am

I almost have the ES-9 working nicely now as a mixer with MIDI control with some caveats but just wanted to add a few things I would love to see in the release version in future:
- cc control of mute as toggle
- a way to limit the range of sliders without having to adjust range on the MIDI controller
- multiple configurations with ability to load/recall rather than just the two based on connected state

Without wanting to be that nagging voice - is there an ETA on an official version?

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LDT
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by LDT » Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:34 am

Karl, that is wonderful work. I hope I can soon sit down with that editor, go through your write-up and hopefully understand a bit more about the apparent deluge of mixers mixing mixed mixers.

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liquid_drifter
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by liquid_drifter » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:12 am

mr_karlos wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:27 pm
...Hope this helps, I use this config a majority of the time
Karl
Thank you for sharing this. Your detailed explanation helped me finally make sense of the editor.

I do wish there was a way to use spdif and the dual mixer setup at the same time.

mr_karlos
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?IT

Post by mr_karlos » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:47 am

dangayle wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:37 pm
mr_karlos wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:27 pm
dangayle wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:29 pm
I’m really curious if I can get my Faderfox MX12 + ES-9 to replace the core functionality of the WMD performance mixer. Can you configure the ES-9 to handle effects sends?
I have my ES-9 configured as an 8 into 2 mixer with two mono sends returning to two stereo aux channels. I also have master faders for master, phones, aux1 and aux 2.

The configuration is:
...

Hope this helps, I use this config a majority of the time
Karl
You, Karl, are my hero. This is really amazing and helps me understand what is going on. This should go into the manual, really.

The MX12 has two buttons that are typically mapped to solo and mute buttons, is there no way to map those like you mentioned with the Midi Designer? Or is Midi Designer automating volume settings behind the scenes when you hit mute?
The mute and solo are functions in MDP. The mute is a function named ‘snap back to value’. The solo is the solo button sending the off message to all the other mute buttons.

At the weekend I’ll do some cleanup work on the MDP patch and post it here.

The firmware is still beta so I’m sure Os will update the documentation when it is formally released. He is an amazing engineer so I wouldn’t be surprised if he adds mute and solo cc functionality to the midi control while having a tea break!

dangayle
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by dangayle » Fri Feb 19, 2021 3:40 pm

Consider that a feature request! :grin:

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liquid_drifter
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by liquid_drifter » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:50 pm

additional feature requests to the great Os:

- numerical value input (those sliders are a bit fiddly for dialing in precise values) as well as double-click defaults for the raw mix section
- ability to save and load multiple presets
- smoothing on gain and eq sliders
- less visually confusing layout (to a noob like me, the arrows in the usb and mixer sections confounded me by showing me exactly what the signal is NOT doing)
- (if possible) 2 mixer setup that somehow retains the spdif i/o

escargot
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by escargot » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:28 am

by smoothing you mean less midi stepping on the controls? that is my bigger gripe right now

its my 100th post! :champagne:

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liquid_drifter
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by liquid_drifter » Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:45 am

escargot wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:28 am
by smoothing you mean less midi stepping on the controls? that is my bigger gripe right now

its my 100th post! :champagne:
yeah, exactly

dangayle
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by dangayle » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:54 pm

escargot wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:28 am
by smoothing you mean less midi stepping on the controls? that is my bigger gripe right now

its my 100th post! :champagne:
Isn't the stepping a limitation of the midi itself?

escargot
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by escargot » Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:00 pm

I think there is midi resolution in the picture bit it’s the first time i notice it that much. Would be good to hear from Os if that could be optimised somehow

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liquid_drifter
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by liquid_drifter » Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:24 am

escargot wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:00 pm
I think there is midi resolution in the picture bit it’s the first time i notice it that much. Would be good to hear from Os if that could be optimised somehow
Yup, hopefully it's doable. It certainly is noticeable with any drastic movements.

It is a limitation of midi resolution, but some digital hardware devices (for example the endorphines shuttle control midi to cv) smooth out the stepping. I'm not developer, but I'm guessing that it's akin to slewing an output to a finer resolution. Not implying for a moment that it's so simple as that 8-)

mr_karlos
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by mr_karlos » Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:24 pm

i have posted the MidiDesgner Pro layout as a new post. I didn't think it was right to distract this thread from the ES-9.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=245065

AnalogueRoots
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by AnalogueRoots » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:10 am

Mr. Karlos, thanks much for the MIDI Designer link - looking forward to checking it out! Os, in terms of the faders & stepping and towards a possibly higher resolution approach, is it possible to use NRPN messages to expand the range of values so smooth fades are possible?

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os
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by os » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:47 am

My plan was to smooth the changes internally. Keeping things as CCs makes it much easier to set up.

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liquid_drifter
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by liquid_drifter » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:25 am

os wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:47 am
My plan was to smooth the changes internally. Keeping things as CCs makes it much easier to set up.
Nice!

Indeed, NRPN messages can be a pain to set up and few controllers support them.

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LDT
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by LDT » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:06 am

liquid_drifter wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:25 am
os wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:47 am
My plan was to smooth the changes internally. Keeping things as CCs makes it much easier to set up.
Nice!

Indeed, NRPN messages can be a pain to set up and few controllers support them.
Yes, good choice not going down that road. 👍🏼

escargot
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by escargot » Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:53 am

:hail: OS please pretty please make us the full standalone config asap, where we can access all inputs on all outputs :hail: :hail:

nexgen23
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by nexgen23 » Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:38 am

Man, I am just seeing the beta firmware (loaded it to my ES9 tonight) so cool to be able to have the two configs. Now when in standalone mode I can have a 8:1 stereo audio mixer (inputs 1-8) to output L/R, a 1:4 multiple (in 9 to outputs 1-4) and a 4:1 CV mixer (inputs 11-14 to output 8)!! This is really awesome!! I have inputs 9-10 non-DC blocked, but 1-8 are DC blocked. Thank you so much, I look forward to the official release of this firmware. I might have to add another in/out to my DIY 2Hp MIDI breakout (currently running to my Distings) so that I can MIDI control the audio mixer (I think that is possible from what I have been reading).

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soundsculptor
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by soundsculptor » Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:46 am

escargot wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:53 am
:hail: OS please pretty please make us the full standalone config asap, where we can access all inputs on all outputs :hail: :hail:
assignable via a matrix would be so awesome and easy to setup (RME totalmix would be an example)

:hail: :hail:
:hail: :hail:
Last edited by soundsculptor on Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
don´t critisize it - equalize it

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soundsculptor
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by soundsculptor » Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:48 am

double post
don´t critisize it - equalize it

AnalogueRoots
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by AnalogueRoots » Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:49 pm

Cool to know about a non-NRPN approach to smoothing things on the horizon. Being relatively naive to this before now, I’ve been learning about NRPN from Novation Support and also Thomas with XOR, as I’ve been working on sequencing my Novation Summit a bit from the NERDSEQ.

From what I’m learning, it’s actually not that complicated, as it’s just CC numbers and values. Once the particular parameter number is chosen, you set the MSB and LSB for the value (on CC6 and CC38; e.g. once you get to 0:127 for 128, you then go to 1:0 for 129 and count by 128), and as it is 128x128 it allows 16384 values. With NERDSEQ, Thomas has set it up such that you don’t have to do the complex counting by 128, but you just choose a value from 0 to 3FFF (hex for 16383), so it’s not much to set up it seems from a user perspective, especially if implemented this way. From what Thomas (XOR) says, one normal CC uses 3 bytes, versus one NRPN using 12 bytes, so I’m not sure how much this would strain the resources of the ES-9 or not.

In terms of devices using NRPN, I believe my old UC-33 is able to do this, and from my review of the Faderfox, it can as well. Maybe there are some constraints, I don’t understand this well enough yet and haven’t messed around directly. Seems like it would work with the NERDSEQ, though I don’t know at what point things might choke up due to the increased load.

Anyway, not trying to beat a dead horse here, but rather to try and share what’s been somewhat demystified for myself. Not sure if this is obvious to most of you or not already.

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LDT
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by LDT » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:05 am

nexgen23 wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:38 am
I might have to add another in/out to my DIY 2Hp MIDI breakout (currently running to my Distings) so that I can MIDI control the audio mixer (I think that is possible from what I have been reading).
Yes, midi control in possible. (And the reason I have no mixers in my system. Only ES-9.)
Instead of adding midi ins and out on an actual module, you may also consider just making a connection on the back, if you don’t need routing flexibility.
(You can split a midi signal to multiple destinations without any additional hardware, btw. As long as we talk about one or two additional destinations, for sure.)

nexgen23
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Re: ES-9 standalone summing?

Post by nexgen23 » Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:08 am

LDT wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:05 am
nexgen23 wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:38 am
I might have to add another in/out to my DIY 2Hp MIDI breakout (currently running to my Distings) so that I can MIDI control the audio mixer (I think that is possible from what I have been reading).
Yes, midi control in possible. (And the reason I have no mixers in my system. Only ES-9.)
Instead of adding midi ins and out on an actual module, you may also consider just making a connection on the back, if you don’t need routing flexibility.
(You can split a midi signal to multiple destinations without any additional hardware, btw. As long as we talk about one or two additional destinations, for sure.)
That’s awesome, if I could control the eq/filters that would be cool too. Using it as a mixer would also free up a couple vcas/attenuators I’m using to control volume.

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