Let's talk about a Max/MSP/ES/Modular-Hybrid

Discussion and support for Expert Sleepers' Silent Way software and hardware.

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Post by johyde » Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:48 pm

Really excited to find this thread - exactly what I'm planning on getting into. I'm a long-time Max user and want to use the ES stuff to expand into the analog world. I only started a few weeks back though, so give me time. The possibilities are really excited I think..

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Post by ipassenger » Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:28 am

Some very interesting stuff in this thread, could we have it stickied and maybe move patches and links to the first thread?

Hopefully once I have mine (ES5+ES3) I can contribute in some way.

Cheers

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Post by wcheeese » Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:33 am

This thread has brought me out of hiding to weigh in with my first post here on MW as one more interested individual in this Eurorack + Expert Sleepers + Max pursuit!

First off, a big thanks for subultresk for coming out and sharing so much and with an awesome amount of enthusiasm. As a newb just getting my toes wet I really appreciate it.

My humble hardware beginnings have only just begun. I started with a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 for my iMac interface, complete with ADAT. Then I picked up an ES-3 mk3 & ES-6 imagining that this would provide me with CV in and out of my computer using Max 7 (I'm currently running OS X 10.8.5).
Still need to get some rails and power. :oops: In my defense, I came across my Expert Sleeper modules on eBay for a pretty decent savings.

For mounting them I'm eyeing the TipTop Audio Happy Ending kit but would prefer to just buy just the two horizontal rails without the ears but can't seem to find someone selling just the rails like that…anyone? Am I missing something? …and then there's power. In time I'll get there. :driving:

And I'm on a waiting list for the revised Dave Jones Design O'Tool Oscilloscope, looking into the possibility of the Snazzy FX Ardcore and/or getting and making a custom EuroRack mount for something like the Olegtron 4060 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwWOLIMKowQ (until Olli releases proper Eurorack products like he mentioned he plans to) and perhaps even a Dave Jones Design MVIP to dabble in some video manipulation.

So if you can tell, my focus is on starting out with a priority on the connection to my computer and leveraging Max's "connect anything" awesomeness with my Eurorack beginnings, offering me some new "outside of my computer" fun. I'm imagining this weird outboard toolkit to start, with plenty of opportunities to spend loads more money when I can find it. :hyper:

When reaching out to some of the manufacturers like Make Noise and Mutable Instruments about the possibility of starting small with an emphasis on Expert Sleepers as my bridge to Max and perhaps one or two modules, despite their politeness in responding I got the feeling that I was treading against the current a bit; at it's heart Eurorack seems to be oriented in the general direction of getting off your computer i.e., buying lots of modules to have lots of unique and cool possibilities grow that way.

That's why this thread was such a breath of fresh air for me and what I'm imagining for how I want to begin! :tu:

Any feedback or reactions would be appreciated! :hail:

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Q?

Post by evengravy » Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:48 am

Not really familiar with the ES until now, looks extremely interesting though. Very familiar with Max. From a personal perspective I'd be inclined to lean towards running pure data on a raspberry pi so that a computer isn't required at all, interfacing it should be doable.

Not to de-rail you in any way, but PD gives most of what max does (as you know i'm sure) but is open source and much more applicable to standalone options IMHO

I envisage a standalone eurorack module powered by RaspPi (or similar) with touchscreen lcd on the front panel and a batch script to launch PD on start-up. All the fun of multi-breakpoint envelopes, sample playback and manipulation, wavetable synthesis, FFT analysis etc. etc. without the necessity on external gear....

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Post by subultresk » Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:37 pm

Hello wcheeese! Welcome to Muffwiggler! Thanks for your feedback!

I don't know Arduino, but i'm very sure that it will be pretty interesting in that combination - maybe ADDAC's "Open Heart Surgery" module might be also interesting for you!? I found the "thinking" of ADDAC often to be very close to Max/MSP (in a positive way).

Why do you want an oscilloscope-module - you can do it with Max very nicely (if you have one or two free Inputs). I made that little tool for watching details when i did some module comparisons.

Image
you can download it here:
Oscilloscope

I strongly suggest to check out Stretta's BEAP project. It's awesome and you will find tons of usable stuff - modify it to fit your needs (like scaling to the ES-objects) - it's even more interesting since more and more parts are done with Gen~ coding (which offers some benefits especially in audio-quality).
BEAP

I started "porting" modules to Max/MSP with LFO and Sequencers, next were Random modules und Clock-related stuff. Now i am comparing EG's. I feel great with those Max substitutions and i love MIRA/iPad as controllers. My hardware synth is more and more only VCO, Filter, LPG, VCA.

For all slider movements i'd suggest to convert numbers to audio signals - if you connect MIDI/OSC/GUI sliders directly to esx8cvencoder~ objects it might result in zipper noises.

That's how i control my envelopes. With adjustable time-domain. Every line can have it's individual curve. (The only not visible things: the GUI's scripting name is "function" and the values are 0.-1.).

Image


:party:

cheers,
Jochen
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es-4

Post by zilzilzilzil » Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:39 pm

is the es-4 totally sold out? I've been looking online and see es-5 and other units but having a hard time finding an es-4.

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Post by os » Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:27 am

Yes, the ES-4's been out of production for a while. I've not ruled out doing another run, but right now the focus is on the ES-40.

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Post by nearly ghost » Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:33 pm

Just wondering if any of these patches are able to be max for live devices? I just bought m4l and already being an es4 user I was hoping I can find some new ways to interface with the modular.

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Post by lintfresh » Thu Jan 01, 2015 4:05 pm

Wowza! Just stumbled across this thread and as I'm getting back into Max after a long hiatus (Max 7 is an amazing update BTW), and I gotta say this is a goldmine!

Thanks for all your wonderful sharing subultresk!! :party:

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Post by johyde » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:14 am

Yeah, only just saw your latest post subultresk, even though it was back in November. Awesome stuff - thanks!

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Post by subultresk » Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:23 pm

Some Grendel-ish sounds.

[video][/video]
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Post by subultresk » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:17 pm

nearly ghost wrote:Just wondering if any of these patches are able to be max for live devices? I just bought m4l and already being an es4 user I was hoping I can find some new ways to interface with the modular.
yes, it's just perfect! They should fit into the Live-window.

:party:
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Post by maesen » Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:05 am

I'm wondering if anyone else has thoughts about combining the ES Stuff with the recently announced "Oscillot" for Ableton Live? (http://maxforcats.com/category/oscillot/) :hmm:
As Max for Cats provides an SDK for your own patches and ES the corresponding Encoders for Max, there should be a possibility to combine the Analog and Digital world?

I'm new into this, I just bought an ES40 with gate and cv expanders and I'm looking forward to hit the borders! :yay:

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Post by subultresk » Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:11 am

maesen wrote:I'm wondering if anyone else has thoughts about combining the ES Stuff with the recently announced "Oscillot" for Ableton Live? (http://maxforcats.com/category/oscillot/) :hmm:
As Max for Cats provides an SDK for your own patches and ES the corresponding Encoders for Max, there should be a possibility to combine the Analog and Digital world?

I'm new into this, I just bought an ES40 with gate and cv expanders and I'm looking forward to hit the borders! :yay:
Hi maesen, welcome to this planet (MW)!
It looks like a nice project - i would check out the BEAP project first. For me it's still closer to my needs.

http://cycling74.com/wiki/index.php?tit ... um_Outline
Last edited by subultresk on Mon May 18, 2015 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by subultresk » Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:34 am

E N V E L O P E S
I just wanted to let you all know that i am very happy with my Max/MSP (BEAP) envelopes after "customizing" the settings of a ESX-8CV module by connecting the jumper. I am only using positive values in Max (0-2047) and receive 0 - 9,3V from the ESX-8CV.
Thanks, Os, for offering that choice! VERY NICE INDEED! :yay:

For comparison i've used TipTop Z4000, MN Function, MN Maths I and Intellijel Quadra/Exp. The VCA were ADDAC802 and Intellijel µVCA. It was easy to create similar curves in Max - much easier than the other way around.

In Max i've used all different types of EG. Besides graphical solutions i really like the ADSR2 patcher from the BEAP collection (Gen~ inside!). Very nice is how easily the curves can be matched to different VCAs with the scale-object.

For me this is a big (kind of) final step since it was the last type if modules i'd like to reduce or even relinquish. Especially with ADSR i'm not too happy e.g. with the Z4000 (the envelopes are superior!) when it comes to modulation. As long as i don't use polarizer/att, the results are not useable. That means it will be a big module-bundle and it needs more cables and a bunch of pre-settings - difficult for drastic changes in life-performances. With Max i can recall some best settings and especially on the ADDAC802 it's very nice since you still can attenuate the envelopes with the modules knobs. Instead of 14HP (with polarizer/att) for one envelope i now get 8x envelopes out of a 4HP module! :tu:

What a message in a post-capitalism world! Much better dealing with resources! Better instrument-transportation for older enthusiasts! :zombie:
(oh - just recently i have two Disting modules too!)

Ah - i also use a ESX-8GT MKI with 12V jumper-setting. Good to have! The Optomix e.g. likes higher voltage on the strike-input (8V) - but it's only very slightly different from 5,3V...
Last edited by subultresk on Wed May 20, 2015 7:45 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Post by Heavy Metal Kid » Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:28 pm

Is there support for the ESX-8MD within Max/MSP, similar to the es4encoder, etc, externals?

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Post by os » Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:58 am

There's no external support for sending MIDI out of the ESX-8MD currently.

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Post by subultresk » Wed May 20, 2015 6:22 am

Short Triggers - Buchla Pulses

I've posted this in the Buchla sub-forum as well.
I found a detail which improves the performance of the Trigger (ESX8GT) significantly if you are working in Max/MSP.

The problem was, to get very short (4ms) pulses/triggers, because Buchla wants it.

When testing the trigger-length with Max and ESX8GT (mkI & mkII) it looked like Max cannot produce those triggers short enough:
if the length goes lesser 11ms some triggers are swallowed consistently.
Thus it should be done at audio rate and "Audio Interrupt" in the Max/MSP Audio Status window needs to be checked!.

Image

Very important in this example is that the ESXGT8 is a MK1 version which is powered. The jumper is set for a 12V (exact 11,45V) output.

I made this short video (and should make a better one soon).
I think it's working great and i don't need any other pulse.

[video][/video]

Comparing the triggers (12ms with unchecked "Audio Interrupt" and 4ms with checked "Audio Interrupt") triggering the 281 it was very clear that 12ms is significantly too long.
With 4ms i get those typical and delicate Buchla envelopes which sound exactly like triggered by a 281 pulse.

I'm pretty sure this shorter triggers will create better sounding envelopes in Eurorack as well!
Last edited by subultresk on Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by subultresk » Mon Jun 01, 2015 8:48 am

This is a note about the
±5V "world" of ES-40/ESX-8CV:
... after expanding to Buchla i was in the need of getting 0-10V.

When the jumper in the ESX-8CV is set it puts out 0-9,13V.
This is already nice, but the last bit (remainder) is missing. Although it's very useful already... i decided to try the trimming.

The maximum i get from the ESX-8CV is 9,53V and it's exactly that much better: 0,4V of 0,87V.
1. My experience is that i don't need the full 10V very often.
2. The area that can be touched with this additional 0,4V can be quite dramatic (like 0,8!). ;-)
3. The control resolution of 11bit (only positive values/0-2047) is enough
(and pacifies the LED information of the module - i prefer the old 2xLED solution or colors/like on the disting module).

I believe that i can live with this setting, but of course i'd prefer having 10V
(my audio-interface might get an ADAT upgrade soon).

P.S.: i'm using one ESX-8CV unmodified and in full 12bit resolution for controlling the 8 frequencies of 4 Dual-VCO
- works perfect and allows many, many more tunings (4096 steps)!

:party:
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Post by subultresk » Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:58 am

edit
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Post by wiremess » Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:04 pm

Hey, thank you all for a nice thread.

So, I wanna play to :) Decided I'll get some expert sleepers devices next week. Have one issue though - my audio interface only has main outs and digital coaxial out (and so does my laptop). So I guess I will have to go with the Es-40, right?

Could anyone please explain any practical differences between the ES-40 and ES-3? I know they use two separate connections and I need an external for ES-40 since it is a stereo digital output and lightpipe is 8 separate channels I suppose. But what are the practical cons with ES-40, and why? What would work better with ES-3, in practice?

I am thinking of buying an ES-40 with 8 CV and 8 GT expanders.

(I guess part of what is confusing me the most is that, if i got it right, the ES-4 had an 8-bit d/a while the ES-40 has a higher bitrate. This makes the text about ESX-8CV on expert sleepers website really confusing to me, specially since I don't really know more about time multiplexing than wiki tells me).

Anyways, appreciate some clarity if anywone would bother.

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Re:

Post by 6667 » Mon May 11, 2020 1:08 pm

Sorry for the necro, this seems like the best place to ask though. I've been looking into creating a smallish system with no gate/cv modulation sources besides those from maxmsp and es3/es5+es8 gate/cv expanders. I assumed you could only connect a single es5 to an es3 module via the expansion header on the es3 pcb, but this thread tells me you can connect up to 4 es5's to a single es3 which is absolutely insane if you take into account the additional es8 expanders per es5.

What exactly does this mean though:
os wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:11 pm
It's just the regular cable but with more IDC sockets crimped to it. It should work just as well with a mk1.
I don't know the first thing about diy electronics, the last time I touched a soldering iron or anything of that sort was in freshman year of high school in my electrical engineering elective. Is there a diagram or anything at all that expands on how I can make an ES-3 take additional ES-5 modules?

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Re: Let's talk about a Max/MSP/ES/Modular-Hybrid

Post by os » Mon May 11, 2020 1:13 pm

Basically they all just get connected in parallel. Same connections from the ES-3 to each ES-5.

Same idea as a 'flying bus board'.
IS640233-01-01-BIG.jpg

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Re: Let's talk about a Max/MSP/ES/Modular-Hybrid

Post by 6667 » Mon May 11, 2020 1:52 pm

os wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 1:13 pm
Basically they all just get connected in parallel. Same connections from the ES-3 to each ES-5.

Same idea as a 'flying bus board'.
IS640233-01-01-BIG.jpg
Ok-- so, one of these sort of things:

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Ad ... 3Tkw%3D%3D

Except with additional 10-pin headers? I googled a bit but doesn't look like there's any readily made with 4x 10-pin headers (that I could find). Hence why you originally told dude to make his own. No idea how to do that but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. Thx anyway

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Re: Let's talk about a Max/MSP/ES/Modular-Hybrid

Post by os » Mon May 11, 2020 1:53 pm

Yes.

IDC cables are a doddle to make. No soldering required.

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