Let's talk about a Max/MSP/ES/Modular-Hybrid

Discussion and support for Expert Sleepers' Silent Way software and hardware.

Moderators: Kent, os

User avatar
Leoespejo
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1537
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 5:26 am
Location: Barcelona

Post by Leoespejo » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:35 am

Ok, i just discovered this treat and and i feel at last i'm not alone, i've been working with Max and ES for a time now and i think is a marvelous combination. I'm not a Max expert but i do my best.

Here you can see two video explorations i made about one year ago, using Max, ES-3, Modular and Lemur and Konkreet Performer.

[video][/video]

[video][/video]

User avatar
subultresk
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:29 pm
Location: Wildeshausen

Post by subultresk » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:39 am

Great that it is cleared how maximization on ES-3 and ES-4 works and what's possible! Thanks again!

One thing i will do for sure for my applications is the development of a TOOL-Kit. While the CV from ESX-4CV will act mainly independent there are some very common usages of 8-Gates-blocks for ESX-8GT, like Clock-Divider (i.e. A-160) Clock-Sequencer (i.e. A-161) or Random Gates (i.e. A-149-2).

Since i started the esencoder~ Help-file with BinToInt i thought, i'll show the other way around (IntToBin). This would be used, if the sent values (to ESX-8GT) are further needed in MAX - it is 0-255 (Int) shown as 8 Gates (Bin).

The RND-Gates example does pretty much the same as the Doepfer A-149-2.

I added the DIVIDER example because the programming is almost similar to IntToBin - it uses the Divide- and Modulo-objects. I simulated a Trigger-Signal as a 1 (On) which is followed by 0 (Off) after 30ms.

To come as close as possible to the Doepfer modules behaviors the jumpers on the ESX-8GT have to be set to 12V.
The A-149-2 is 0/12V and the A-160 0/10V. AFAIK the Doepfer Triggers are 50ms.

You can download the patch here.

Image
Last edited by subultresk on Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:11 am, edited 11 times in total.
_____________________

bohnes.de

User avatar
subultresk
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:29 pm
Location: Wildeshausen

Post by subultresk » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:53 am

Leoespejo wrote:Ok, i just discovered this treat and and i feel at last i'm not alone, i've been working with Max and ES for a time now and i think is a marvelous combination.
Welcome Leoespejo! I already expected you cause i've seen you in so many threads i've visited...

I own Lemur, but i've never used it (too complicated?) :eek:

If i see it correctly you are using the Lemur clock options a lot. How is the timing with Max?
_____________________

bohnes.de

User avatar
Leoespejo
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1537
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 5:26 am
Location: Barcelona

Post by Leoespejo » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:44 pm

subultresk wrote:I own Lemur, but i've never used it (too complicated?)


No, not really but you should understand how OSC works and maybe use some OSC externals. OSC rocks !!!
subultresk wrote:If i see it correctly you are using the Lemur clock options a lot. How is the timing with Max?
No, i'm not using Lemur's clock, i'm using it mostly to modulate paramenters and to control a Max/MSP patch that sends CV with sig~ and divides clocks in many, many different divisions.

BTW, i'm working now in a patch sending sound to a Buchla 200e and processing it with Euro and Buchla, is real fun i'll upload a demo video when i have some time.

User avatar
subultresk
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:29 pm
Location: Wildeshausen

Post by subultresk » Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:28 pm

subultresk wrote:I own Lemur, but i've never used it (too complicated?)

Leoespejo wrote:No, not really but you should understand how OSC works and maybe use some OSC externals. OSC rocks !!!


i also use OSC a lot and prefer it to MIDI because of the 14bit. It's more the complexity of Lemur (container etc.) that holds me off using it. I was just about to intensify my concentration on Lemur when MIRA came out - which took all my time...
This is a software i wrote for a piece of a sardinian composer (G. Tedde) - for voice and live-electronic. It's designed to put the computer away and only use it during the performance - from distance - as a monitor on stage - for the singer to see peak-meters and the step-number (for insurance-feel). The singer uses a foot-switch to go through the steps. For rehearsals and corrections during the performance the composer (or player of the live-electronic) can change the steps via iPhone.

If you like to listen to the piece: "Morite" by Giorgio Tedde - it's here. For voice and live-electronic. Sylvia Nopper-mezzosopran; Thomas Kessler-live-electronic.

Image

Now i am working on a version for MIRA - it's not ready yet... I like MIRA because it allows to be a bit lazier. :tu:
Also, i know some more Max-tricks to let MIRA do what wasn't intended yet (with OSC i use TouchOsc which is great, but pretty restricted).
With OSC i still have a better feeling, but i hope this will change soon!

Image

Image
Leoespejo wrote:BTW, i'm working now in a patch sending sound to a Buchla 200e and processing it with Euro and Buchla, is real fun i'll upload a demo video when i have some time.
Wow! I'm looking forward to watch that video!
Last edited by subultresk on Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
_____________________

bohnes.de

User avatar
subultresk
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:29 pm
Location: Wildeshausen

Post by subultresk » Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:31 pm

hhmmm - so quiet…..

:zombie:


i made a little video about my proposal for little barebones-Max-modules.
Especially when many ESX-8GT modules are used, it's easy that several module-replica would share one ESX-8GT - or could be routed to it…

This would be something like the core of a A-149-1 and a full A-149-2 Random Generator, a A-160 Clock-Divider and a A-161 Clock-Sequencer.
I'm thinking about some kind of Bus-system.
This ESX-8GT is still 0/5V.

Inclusive a little speed/stress-test!

[video][/video]
_____________________

bohnes.de

User avatar
bil_g
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 437
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:17 pm
Location: WV

Post by bil_g » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:36 am

:yay:

Fascinating, even though I don't fully understand - not a Max user. Great video.

Funny, I like speed tests, too :hihi: . I was posting it for something else and then came here and saw your vid.

Oh, and it's nice to make your acquaintance, as well. :mrgreen:

User avatar
subultresk
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:29 pm
Location: Wildeshausen

Post by subultresk » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:17 am

bil_g wrote::yay:

Fascinating, even though I don't fully understand - not a Max user. Great video.

Funny, I like speed tests, too :hihi: . I was posting it for something else and then came here and saw your vid.
Thanks bil_g. I don't understand it either but i'm just working with it. :woah: … Max is especially very cool IF you don't understand because those little objects host C-codes!
Today Max is a huge thing (+MSP+Jitter+Gen+M4L) - i can't imagine how my "first contact" would feel today. I am an early time Max user (i think my 25th anniversary will be next year) - it was only MIDI or serial and a kind of wedge to get into the "closed" synths of that time - like Yamaha TX816 or TG77 which i used a lot. Also i started Live-sampling with an AKAI900 Sampler. To do that i wrote the sysex-codes of the AKAI900-knobs (menu-stepping) which enabled me to do 30 steps in a part of a second.


This is a video from Jan/93 with Frank Gratkowski, me, Mac SE-30, AKAI900, TX816, TG77and a Digigram-MIDI-microphone. Max analyzed Frank's playing and listened to special interval-chains to send "bangs" which caused the machines to play or start a sampler-recording etc.. Everything was pretty complex and organized - it was a composition and less randomly than it looks/sounds… :hihi:


[video][/video]
Last edited by subultresk on Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:59 am, edited 4 times in total.
_____________________

bohnes.de

User avatar
subultresk
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:29 pm
Location: Wildeshausen

Post by subultresk » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:44 am

Since there is (still) an error in my ES-video i would like to find an answer to that question. It seems i still haven't understood the reaction-time-thing correctly.

If on an Es-4 with 44.1kHz the ESX-8GT "reacts" also in 44.1kHz - is it only the ESX-4CV that runs in 5512.5Hz or is it the term "react" that is wrong?

I don't get it!
Last edited by subultresk on Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
_____________________

bohnes.de

User avatar
os
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 14590
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:55 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by os » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:22 am

subultresk wrote:is it only the ESX-4CV that runs in 5512.5Hz
Yes.

User avatar
subultresk
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:29 pm
Location: Wildeshausen

Post by subultresk » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:27 am

os wrote:
subultresk wrote:is it only the ESX-4CV that runs in 5512.5Hz
Yes.
Thanks Os! What a great feeling of awareness!
(i'll change it in the vid)

:tu:
_____________________

bohnes.de

User avatar
subultresk
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:29 pm
Location: Wildeshausen

Post by subultresk » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:39 am

Ah - this leaves a final question.

Does the ESX-4CV always run on an eighth of the sampling rate or only when it is used with ES-4?
_____________________

bohnes.de

User avatar
os
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 14590
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:55 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by os » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:46 am

Always.

User avatar
subultresk
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:29 pm
Location: Wildeshausen

Post by subultresk » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:18 am

Thanks Os!

it looks like we are finally through with the technical side of your great modules (and i will do the correction in the video).
Thanks again for your help!

At least it's very simple and clear:
everything is running "normal". The ESX-4CV acts like a LFO which is able to run at quite high frequencies - and like other LFO-modules it offers ±5V.
(edit: to give a measurement: a piano is ca. 27Hz to 4200Hz.)

Man - sometimes i just need too long to get things! :doh:

Many questions have been answered - i try to give a résumé and index in the first post of this topic (in blue).


Now could be the time to share some ideas about Max/MSP "barebones-modules" and the instruments technical design.

What should be analog and what can be digital?

My concentration was mainly on LFO, Gates and Triggers. This keeps everything "alive" and doesn't destroy the analog feel of the instrument.

In the moment i assume to do the panning mainly with Max/MSP (also the final mix). Modules that migrated to Max/MSP in my instrument:
Sequencer, LFO, Random Generator, Env-Fol, Preamps, FX and mainly every digital processing (that's quite a lot of HP and $).

I like the EG and VCA/LPG for their individual character - this is very different from digital envelopes (from my view). That's why i want to keep them as hardware.

The important analog modules in my synth are VCO, Filter/Waveshaper, Mixer, EG, VCA and some Utility-modules (CV-Switches and -Faders, Attenuators/Polarizers, Comparator, MinMax, Rectifier, Logic) for being able to interact on the hardware-side of the synth. There are also three individual Interface-modules (Joystick, Foot-Control and Ribbon).

I still have a Random-Generator-module - i just bought a Wogglebug because of the clock-generator and burst-option. While Max offers endless and deep possibilities to produce random values, a random module keeps it's own secrets - which is some kind of random too…

My DSP-layout:

at this point i am going to group some things

1. Analog Audio I/O (audio).
2. Digital Audio I/O (CV)
3. Panning
4. FX - which is everything like Granulizer, Filter, Sampler, FFT etc.
5. Control - which is not Controllers, but Tables, Random/Math, Harmonizer, Quantizer, Sequencer, LFO etc.
6. Preset
7. Interface - which is a bit MIDI and a lot iPad (OSC or MIRA)

In general i am very close to switch using "hot" data (like Stretta's BEAP) in many more areas, because it feels very nice, analog and hot!

:party:

For this forum the 5th might the most interesting point, because it virtualizes hardware modules - which are again de-virtualized through the ES-modules. I thought of some core-barebones - a tool-box with "modules" that can be modified/customized easily. That is LFO, Clock-operations, Divider, Sequencer and Random Generators.

My personal interest goes to Micro-Tuning, Polyphony and Analysis/Re-Synthesis. I'd like to speak into a mic and listen to the re-synthesis from 16 Dixie-sines. I want my Software-Granulizer to be controlled by my Maths. It is just what a ghost-voice and placards taught me in London: minding the gap!
Last edited by subultresk on Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
_____________________

bohnes.de

User avatar
subultresk
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:29 pm
Location: Wildeshausen

Post by subultresk » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:24 am

bil_g wrote::yay:

Funny, I like speed tests, too :hihi:
That's cool and sec (dry)! Feels like time would be compressed! :woah:
_____________________

bohnes.de

User avatar
os
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 14590
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:55 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by os » Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:19 am

it looks like we are finally through with the technical side of your great modules
Until I release the new ones :)

User avatar
subultresk
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:29 pm
Location: Wildeshausen

Post by subultresk » Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:20 am

:party:

.. but now you are surrounded by insiders!
_____________________

bohnes.de

User avatar
subultresk
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:29 pm
Location: Wildeshausen

Post by subultresk » Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:45 pm

… topic seems to be dead already…
(can't stand it!)

Os, your modules are SO MUCH FUN! My Sunday-Thanks! :party:

[video][/video]

I'm not sure if the 2^n states are correct… (i'd like to compare it to the module which i've never met yet).

Has somebody ever measured the output? :help:


Cheers
Last edited by subultresk on Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
_____________________

bohnes.de

User avatar
os
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 14590
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:55 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by os » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:07 am

Nice! No audio on that video?

User avatar
subultresk
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:29 pm
Location: Wildeshausen

Post by subultresk » Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:45 am

os wrote:Nice! No audio on that video?
Thanks Os - yeah, no tone - i did it when the modular was offline (in pieces)…. i'll do a better vid soon!
_____________________

bohnes.de

User avatar
subultresk
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:29 pm
Location: Wildeshausen

Post by subultresk » Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:32 pm

Another little Bit-Shift-Patch-video (with audio):
(edited…)
Last edited by subultresk on Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_____________________

bohnes.de

User avatar
subultresk
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:29 pm
Location: Wildeshausen

Post by subultresk » Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:12 pm

[video][/video]
_____________________

bohnes.de

User avatar
os
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 14590
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:55 am
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by os » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:37 am

Fantastic work!

User avatar
subultresk
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:29 pm
Location: Wildeshausen

Post by subultresk » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:30 am

os wrote:Fantastic work!
Thanks Os!

Your modules are fantastic!

It slowly gets a bigger thing - there are some more very inspiring modules to port: Gated EnvFol, Stepped Switches, etc….

This 8Bit stuff is quite entertaining!

:party:
_____________________

bohnes.de

User avatar
hpsounds
the french icelander
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:54 am
Location: France|Iceland
Contact:

Post by hpsounds » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:13 am

@ subultresk
Very impressive work ! :hail:
Will you make these patches available (Max or MaxForLive ?), even for a small fee ?

H.

Post Reply

Return to “Expert Sleepers”