Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

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Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by djthopa » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:30 pm

Hiya,

I built a Oakley Sequencer but its behaving kind of strange,

Tony mentions he does not provide direct support on diy builds, so ill post here hoping someone that has built the sequencer can help me figure this one out.

If i follow the initialise instructions per the manual after the build: (previous tests about correct voltages have been carried out successfully)

*All individual step load switches to 'Load Off', except step 1 which should be set to 'Load On'

And i do all the other steps:

All the step mode switches should be set to the middle 'normal' position, except step 9 which should be in the 'reset' position. All the gate select switches should be in their central position. The two scale switches should both be set to X4. The 'Load on Shift' switch should be off, ie. in the up position. The 'Gate Width' switch should be in the 'Full' position. The pot positions are not important at this stage.

Then i turn the module on.

This is what happens:

If i press shift, steps dont light or advance.

But if i put the load switch for all the stages in the middle (leave as marked in the panel) and stage one load on:

I press load, then shift does make the steps advance.

Gate Reset works on both channels.

Gate out works on both channels at a voltage of +5v if gate is and +12v if the switch is off?
This happens in both gate out A and gate out B.

Cv out 1A outputs corrdt values with correspondents stage pot on fully clock wise and outputs +1v/+2v/4v dpeneding on the scale of row 1. (i guess this means row one is kind of calibrated)

Cv Out a2 goes from +12 volts with potentiometer next to CV out A2 al the way ccw and +15v if the pot is all the way clock wise.

Cv Out a2 goes from -17 volts with potentiometer next to CV out B2 al the way ccw and -14v if the pot is all the way clock wise.

Im making all the measurements with my good old Fluke 8842A, so they are readings to be trusted and have calibrated many modules with it over the years,

Hope with this information you might be able to give me some hints as to where to look at.

One last thing, the CD4049UBD hex inverter U1, U2, U4 where the wrong size, my mistake.

I bent the legs inwards of the ic under the scope and matched the size of the pcb footprint.

I soldered the pads. applied flux and used my hot gun on the ics as if they where QFN´s.

Connections are fine under the scope and the continuity is correct on of the pads (little bit meshy but had to improvise a bit)

I did not go over the temperature specs of the ic with the gun so i doubt i fried the ics.

Al the soldering was done on top of an antistatic matt, so i dont think there has been any trouble with ESD.

Thanks a bunch :)

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by djthopa » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:41 pm

Here are some pics of the main board, maybe some one can spot some thing off.

All ics face in the same direction right?

52080A30-1457-44A4-B55D-EE889B30C350.jpeg
A0253FE7-170A-400F-92D1-8769E33D8C1C.jpeg
59038AB6-4D97-490E-A17F-6EA1884227D2.jpeg
E00F822A-9B2B-427D-BCEA-C1C0FEF072C1.jpeg
DBD0C86D-EDF4-4CE8-B7E9-78493D1BD6B4.jpeg
9D06D27F-F7D4-4D16-AB76-D9114863F43E.jpeg
Gracias!

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by Leverkusen » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:57 pm

I am sure Tony will chime in here for supportive advices - he just won't do it via individual email.

From the pics I wonder what that wire beneath the resister network RN5 is? Also is C16 mounted in the right direction?

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by djthopa » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:20 pm

Leverkusen wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:57 pm
I am sure Tony will chime in here for supportive advices - he just won't do it via individual email.

From the pics I wonder what that wire beneath the resister network RN5 is? Also is C16 mounted in the right direction?
Thanks a lot for your quick reply :)

Well spotted the remaining leg on RN5, im getting different ranges on the _Cv out -b1 but they make no sense. -10v (on +4v) +2v on +2v switch pos, and +6v on +1v switch.

When i start the calibration of CV out B1, do i leave the switch scale of the first row (CV Out A1) on x1?

Still a weird behaviour that all load switches have to be on middle pos but the first one on "on" to make the sequencer advance steps.

Maybe im actually summing voltages from other stages on stage one therefore its not working correctly :(

C16 is mounted right :)

Thanks a lot!

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by djthopa » Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:24 pm

Also, another pointer,
ALL switches must be on the the middle "leave position for the sequencer to advance.
If i turn one off, it wont work.

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by djthopa » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:50 pm

Last thing before i go to bed, i renember i run out of rl072acd and used 2 tl072acdr instead.
Can that affect performance? Datadheets look very similar
Thanks!

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by Synthbuilder » Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:22 am

djthopa wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:30 pm
Gate out works on both channels at a voltage of +5v if gate is and +12v if the switch is off?
Gate off should be 0V and gate on should be +5V.
Cv Out a2 goes from +12 volts with potentiometer next to CV out A2 al the way ccw and +15v if the pot is all the way clock wise.

Cv Out a2 goes from -17 volts with potentiometer next to CV out B2 al the way ccw and -14v if the pot is all the way clock wise.
Since the power supply is +/-12V you should not be getting any voltage above or below +12V and -12V respectively.

Both the gate voltages and the unusually high voltages suggest that the voltages are not being measured with respect to 0V. That is, the black lead on the voltmeter is not 0V (ground).

The most common cause for this is that the 0V connections from the power supply to the module are not all in place. The Oakley Sequencer uses all six 0V connections in the IDC cable that runs to your PSU. Make sure pins 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 are all connected to your power supply's 0V terminal. If they are not, that might explain some of the problems you are getting.

Tony

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by Synthbuilder » Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:27 am

djthopa wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:50 pm
i renember i run out of rl072acd and used 2 tl072acdr instead.
Can that affect performance?
Both parts should be the same. The R at the end indicates that the devices has been delivered to the supplier on a large reel.

Tony

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by djthopa » Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:38 am

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the reply.

I thought about what you are saying about all ground pins connected (as noted on the manual)

Unfortunately i tried with a different power supply, different power cable, and tested and confirmed there is continuity between all ground pins from the socket that is soldered to the pcb where the module gets the power off. All ground pins are connected.

Im going to try with another case when i get home, try re flowing. the power pins too. Maybe its the power socket itself that the male pins are not at the same height? thats very strange, never happened before.

Will let you know, thanks!

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by Synthbuilder » Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:08 am

djthopa wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:38 am
All ground pins are connected.
It would be wise to check the voltage on any of the sockets' screw threads (or the metal panel if it is fitted). This should be 0V with respect to the 0V output on the power supply.

Also measure the voltage on the 0VA test pin with respect to the PSU's 0V output. This too should be very close to 0V.

Measure the voltage across D12 on the main board. This should be close to 5V.

Recheck the voltages at the gate outputs. These should only vary from 0V when off to around +5V when active. If not then check the voltage on pin 14 of U27. It should be +5V.

Tony

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by djthopa » Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:13 am

Thanks Tony,

Will do the measurements and let you know the results.

Thanks for your support

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by djthopa » Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:57 am

Hi tony,

Voltage across d12 is 5v.

Voltage on pin 14 of u27, its 5v.

"It would be wise to check the voltage on any of the sockets' screw threads (or the metal panel if it is fitted). This should be 0V with respect to the 0V output on the power supply.""

It is 0v .

"Also measure the voltage on the 0VA test pin with respect to the PSU's 0V output. This too should be very close to 0V."

Its 0v too.

Im going to try on another case......

Despair :(

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by djthopa » Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:18 am

Ok more tests...

Reflowed power connector.
Connected module to my monster case.
Gates are the correct voltage. 0-5volts
Row 1 fully functional (i think) x1 x2 x4 switch shows +1v +2v and +4vç
Row 2. Nothing. The only thing outputting voltage is CV outB2 that goes from 0 to +10volts and gate B out that outputs 0-5v.
Im going to sit down and revise component values around Cv out B1, something must be wrong.
Cheers

Edit: Only knob 8 row 2 makes the voltage change on the output from 0v pot fully ccw to 3.86v pot fully cw.

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by djthopa » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:28 am

Ok,

Resistors and caps related to CV_OUT_B1 are correct per schemartic.

U9 and U20 (tl072) have both pin 5 @ 0V.

Tested all ics. Power +12v and -12V and GND on the expected ics and all the logic ics show 0 and 5v where expected too.

Im pretty sure by now its not the main board....moving to the controller board.....

I really did not want to take that panel off again and bend some of the leds....been there a few times :(

Ok....


So reflowed all sequencer pots main board.

Managed to calibrate T1B, T2B, and T3b so they output +4v, 2v, and 1v. BUT only when step is on stage 8!

Rest of stages 1-7 of second row do not pass voltage, i think three must be a short somewhere in that row that does not affect pot 8?

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by Synthbuilder » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:22 am

djthopa wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:28 am
BUT only when step is on stage 8!
Rest of stages 1-7 of second row do not pass voltage...
I wonder whether resistor network RN3 is around the wrong way.

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by djthopa » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:55 am

B45F0A08-56B7-4656-BB1E-3C9D83099188.jpeg
83EBCD4E-7E57-49A1-9F07-2B36F54A08BF.jpeg
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C055D5B2-812E-4AA6-974D-2F8EBB3C15A0.jpeg


Hi Tony,
Thanks for your reply.
RN2 AND RN3 are facing the same direction, towards the top of the pcb. As Rn4 and Rn1.

I attach some pics.

Cheers
Attachments
8E936366-216A-445D-80CD-5CFCB6004519.jpeg
8EC9C955-B8A7-4BD5-BD17-8FDA47ED1D60.jpeg
5DAE8BC1-756F-4816-A506-6E0001F3A731.jpeg
E4DB92A2-F133-4CE9-A053-FD9E4ED3671F.jpeg
BA4F4013-4052-405A-A5D1-8FA4CF89AF84.jpeg

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by djthopa » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:08 pm

This is the resistor network is used 220k:

https://www.mouser.es/ProductDetail/652-4609X-1LF-220K

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by djthopa » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:11 pm

Are resistors network RN" and RN3 oriented differently?

One has the silkscreen name on the left (RN2) and the other on the right.

Just realised there is a square indicating pin 1 and its not the same orientation for both Resistor networks :(

:bang: :bang:

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by djthopa » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:01 pm

ok, that fixed it. Now i have cv on both rows :)

Still dont know what to do about the need to have all the load switch on leave (middle pos) and first (or any other) step on load on, for the sequencer to work.

Its not the behaviour what its described in the manual....

I have the right size ics now, shall i replace U1, U2 and U4 now that the panel is off?

Can this be affecting the behaviour?

Or shall i pass?

Thanks Tony

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by Synthbuilder » Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:59 am

djthopa wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:01 pm
Still dont know what to do about the need to have all the load switch on leave (middle pos) and first (or any other) step on load on, for the sequencer to work.
This is possibly a problem with the LOAD_A and LOAD_B signals from the main board. Measure the voltage at pin 13 of U3 on the main board. It should be +5V but I think it may be 0V. If so, this is where the problem lies.

With the power off, check the continuity between pin 14 of U3 and the cathode (the line) of the big diode D12. You should get a resistance of nearly zero ohms. Then check the continuity from pin 7 of U3 to the anode of the big diode D12. This too should be close to zero ohms. If all is well, then do the same for U15.

This will check that both +5V and 0V are connected to the logic chips that drive the LOAD outputs.

If all seems to be well. Power up and measure the voltage on pin 2 of U15. This should be 0V.

Then measure the voltage on pin 4 of U16. This too should be 0V.
shall i replace U1, U2 and U4 now that the panel is off?
You can, if you can remove the bigger chips safely. However, I don't think that's where the problem is - those chips drive the sixteen pots and if the sequencer is producing stable voltages, they're working OK.

Tony

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by djthopa » Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:42 am

Thanks for the reply and info.

I changed the ics and put the panel back on.

Performed all the calibration steps.

Going to look into the load issue, see if i can fix it :)

Cheers!

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by djthopa » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:19 pm

Hi so i made the tests:

"Measure the voltage at pin 13 of U3 on the main board. It should be +5V but I think it may be 0V. If so, this is where the problem lies."

Its 5v.

"With the power off, check the continuity between pin 14 of U3 and the cathode (the line) of the big diode D12. You should get a resistance of nearly zero ohms. Then check the continuity from pin 7 of U3 to the anode of the big diode D12. This too should be close to zero ohms. If all is well, then do the same for U15. "

I get continuity from pin 14 of U3 and the cathode of D12. Resistance of 0.4 Ohms

This will check that both +5V and 0V are connected to the logic chips that drive the LOAD outputs.

If all seems to be well. Power up and measure the voltage on pin 2 of U15. This should be 0V.

Its 0.022v

"Then measure the voltage on pin 4 of U16. This too should be 0V."

Same, 0.022v

Thanks Tony,

I have looked around all these mentioned Ics, U3, and U15....and the main board, but cant spot anything.

Any further ideas?

_Thanks for your help!

Edited: Just to make sure im not missing out, all the ics face the same direction on the main board right?

Cheers

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by djthopa » Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:07 pm

Hi Tony,

Since im running out of options, do you think its makes sense to start replacing parts related to the mentioned ics?

I checked all caps and resistor values according to the schematic and they where good. Some where a bit off but i think its due to being soldered to the boards (some resistors)

So maybe:

Replace ics u3 and u15.

Replace ressitors, caps, didodes etc, related to them.

:hmm: :hmm: :cry:

Cheers

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by djthopa » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:38 am

So....one more day :(

Changed ic 15 and 3.

No changes.

I have notest that i used NPN 45v BC550CBU, but i also have BC550BB 1G.

Wonder if that makes any differencE, they do have slightly differente characterisitcs...

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Re: Problem with Euro Sequencer Cv out 1 and some other issues.

Post by Synthbuilder » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:44 am

djthopa wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:19 pm
Just to make sure im not missing out, all the ics face the same direction on the main board right?
Yes. All ICs are all aligned the same.

Can you check that both RN3 and RN4 on the main board are the correct way around. Pin 1 should be in the square pad which is towards the top of the board.

If all is well with those two, what's the voltage on pin 10 of U3? This should be +5V too.

If both LOAD_A (pin 13) and LOAD_B (pin 10) are at +5V the position of the stage loading switches should not make a difference unless the load button is pressed (or the load input is engaged).

Tony

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