Clock Dividers. Essential Range and Divisors?

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mvdirty
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Re: Clock Dividers. Essential Range and Divisors?

Post by mvdirty » Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:05 pm

Dreth wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:43 am
I currently have a tempi and was thinking about getting a Pams+expander instead of getting dividers/multipliers...

Pamela's will give me more clocks plus everything else it does, but I'm not sure if it would be overkill.
I must admit that I would more expect to hear someone say they are considering replacing one with the other, rather than having both. Two modal/divey clock sources isn’t something I’d personally go for. Heck, I might even remove Pam’s in the not-too-distant future, as my sequencer is bristling with suitable outputs and I can use my more-interactive clock dividers and multipliers for ratios too strange for the sequencer. :)

Ahh, modular. So many wonderful possibilities to consider. Shakmat’s Time Wizard, for example, is another one that I’d love to have a go with at some point: http://www.shakmatmodular.com/products/tw.html

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Re: Clock Dividers. Essential Range and Divisors?

Post by KSS » Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:33 pm

Here's the current state of the panel for the module which inspired the thread and question. There are still six divisors left to possibly be assigned. They're in white as ?? on the panel in the upper 4-9 dividers. Where they are alternate choices to the straight binary as labeled just below them in black. Choice made using the orange pushbuttons. Or possibly using the black tact switch as seen in the blue banana jack version, keeping the illuminated PB's for 'muting' the divider output into the mixer portion of the module. That plan to allow selective 'mute' PB control of each divider output was the original intent. Maybe six additional divisor choices aren't needed?

About the drawing
Black ringed holes are toggle switches. Blue jacks in the middle panel are reprsenting a banana version. Black filled circles in this banana version are tact switches.

A brief description of the module
There are two multi-divider sections. In the upper Bias Divide Sum Mix section are six independent dividers. The lower /N section has three independent dividers. The yellow divider has two alternate yet independent outputs.

Bias Divide Sum Mix
In the upper BDSM section an arbitrary waveform comes in at U1 to be used for clocking the dividers. In the leftmost column all grey knobs 4-9 set the threshold of input comparators for each of the six individual dividers. This allows swing to be set, and VC of these thresholds at L4-9 means swing-timing is under voltage control when a non-rectangular shape like a sine, triangle or ramp-saw is the input waveform. Rectangular waveforms are also biased by threshold level and instead of a temporal shift result in VC on/off selection of clock pulses or gates to the dividers.

A three position slide switch next to bottom orange GLOBAL BIAS comparator threshold knob sets destination for clocks. OFF/BOTH is greyed out above slide switch middle position. Choice for this middle position to be OFF or BOTH is set by a PCB jumper. The global bias knob applies to all six BDSM chains. The slide switch allows the arbitrary WF applied at U1 to also be used by the lower /N dividers. It can also allow the global bias output to be applied and OR'd with the individual 4-9 comparator outputs for the upper dividers.

/N
A regular clock input can come in at L1 and goes directly to a toggle to choose either rising, falling or both edge counting for the blue A and yellow C dividers of the /n lower section.

A second clock may be patched into the EXT CLK jack or the output of the global bias comparator fed by U1 may be sent to the edge detecting toggle switch also where it will br OR'd with any L1 input.

The C or "Count" divider has a yellow knob with a 10 position greyhill rotary switch. Selection between a 1-10 decimal or 2^n division -up to /1024- divider is made with the associated yellow pushbutton.
The A or "Analog" divider's blue knob sets a target voltage for Serge NCom style division. An associated blue pushbutton chooses a V/oct stepped or gate-pulse output to jack and mixer. 5 octave range from 1-64 steps divisor. The current divisor is shown in binary on 6 LEDs.

General notes
Johm Blacet's pattern generator method is evident in the mixers provided with additional AUX inputs to allow joining different divider outputs or mixing in outside signals.
It's also possible to use the module as a multi-input mixer in different arrangements either along with or apart from its dividing use. As shown by the panel graphics.

The jacks in the central column are TRS wired for standard S/R insert capability. The washers of the jacks have black squares to show which preference is given when using TS jacks. Does a TS plug recieive the divider out, or does it allow input to the mixer. They are rotated to either position as part of setting up the config for the module.

There's really no room for additional parts on the panel and some of what's already here may go away. The tact and smaller toggles being likely candidates. Which are here as possible means to choose musical vs mathematical division, pulse vs gate divider output. If removed from the panel, their function will still exist as PCB jumpers with shorting blocks.

The far right partial panel shows a typical Serge jack distance layout. Which is possible for the module, but is still under consideration as it requires narrowing the left and rightmost column's distance to module edge. Affecting neighbor modules to a greater or lesser degree, depending on their own distances.
end 1097 description
--------------------------------------

The question for this thread is what should the six remaining divisors be for the 4-9 dividers? These already have the typical suboctaves /2 to/64 as their black labels show. The /N Blue Ncom style divider A takes care of integer division by 1-64 and is V/Oct VC controllable using 0-5.33V at L2. A 10V level or pulse at the L2 matrix switch position holds-resets it. L3 is used to reset the top 6 divders.
The yellow divider C is 1-10 decimal or 2^n divide by /2 to /1024. Output chosen by its associated yellow pushbutton.

There's quite a bit already on the panel, and patch programming is definitely possible, intended and planned for. Missing are any non-integer divisors. Like /1.5

And even though the non powers of 2 integers are covered well by the decimal and VC integer dividers of the lower /N section, it's still possible that having one or more of these repeated up top to be available for -literally- adding to the mix may be a good choice.

What should the 6 alternate divisors be?

-----------
This is all chip logic based. No code, firmware or uP is used or available. Some choices for the six remaining may therefore be limited. But please share what you think they *should* be anyways!
Attachments
1097-Show.JPG

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stepvhen
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Re: Clock Dividers. Essential Range and Divisors?

Post by stepvhen » Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:59 pm

Holy hell thats a module.

What about upbeats/offset/phase? For driving drums it would make things a bit easier, and probably open up some weird patch programming results as well.

Other thoughts are set prime divisors like 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, or extreme vales like 4096. Maybe flip flop circuits to divide by 2 and square up any other output.

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revtor
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Re: Clock Dividers. Essential Range and Divisors?

Post by revtor » Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:11 pm

Mind blown..
Stepvens on The right track. Throw a really long divisor in there, then some odd.. maybe a random or probabilistic thing??
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KSS
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Re: Clock Dividers. Essential Range and Divisors?

Post by KSS » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:24 pm

Offset and phase shifts are effected by the grey knobs per divider, and by the orange knob globally over all six BDSM's and optionally with the slide switch for the /N trio also.
Accents and -intentionally- dropped notes are effected by the black knobs and choosing to use a rectangular input wave at U1.

Yes, the current largest single divisor is 1024. With the planned half-width IO expansion 1097X you get individual divider inputs. Recursive patching can then get some large divisors.

There's only so much can be put on one panel, and the early replies in this thread -which were used in decisions about this module- suggested that many smaller dividers-divisions were preferred over large divisors.

Random and probabilistic are already there in the analog waveform input at U1, the VC comparators to act upon it and the action of rectangular waves -or portions of waves- when put through comparators. In a sloped waveform the output time or phase shifts, but with a rectangular wf, it changes to existential-probabilistic. The comparator's output pulse train shows gaps where the rectangle input didn't reach the orange or grey knob -or CV set-modified thresholds.

Looking just at the upper six BD 4-9 dividers, are there any divisors that would pair well with the /2, 4, 8, 16, 32 and 64 already there?

Because in at least one primary patch group for this module, these six remain separate from the /N's below. The join mixers switch is off. I can see a case for having the same divisors in reverse order, for example. Because the /2 at divider4 and a /2 at divider9 wouldn't necessarily end up the same after being processed through their respective chains.

I can't help but keep coming back to feeling a need for /1.5 And some others that we can already get below, but aren't presently in the upper set when used alone. Like /10, /12, /24. Or the primes you both mentioned. adding /7 to the four leaves on more to be assigned? Mayber the large divisor there?
And then to pair-match these with an appropriate mate at each 4-9 position. Thoughts on that?

Since each divider in the upper set is an actual divider chip -and not code- there's some limits on what can be done. The positive tradeoff is the *much* higher speed which these hardware dividers can achieve.

This is a great example of the benefit of a digital module. Firmware update after release to reflect what users say they found lacking at initial release.

Thank you for your feedback. Hopefully we'll get some more replies too.

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Re: Clock Dividers. Essential Range and Divisors?

Post by teleport » Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:20 am

Wow, that's an epic design. Love the dense-banana and with pushbutton mute looks like it could be very playable.

The CGS22 implemented as in the Loudest Warning panel with all the individual phases brought out is great in the presentation of a number of closely related outputs simultaneously - have found that having a number slight variations to be more musically useful than a very range, like /4096 (That said I also find the /2-/16 range of that divider a bit too narrow to use with faster clocks, maybe chaining is the answer). Super long divisions do seem like they could be really useful in compositional automation applications.

Would agree that having /7 would be a good choice for syncopated vibes. /3 + self-patching to the binary series would provide the potential for /12, /24 etc.

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Re: Clock Dividers. Essential Range and Divisors?

Post by KSS » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:26 am

Thank you. Playability is a chief design goal for these 50^2 AKA 50SQ modules. There's already so much modern focus on computer behind a panel modules. Nothing wrong with that, but looking for a different thing with these.

I almost re-badged this one to the 1021 spot I reserved early on for the system's primary 'clock divider' module. But finally decided to leave this in the 9=SEQ related and 7= Mixer categories. 1021 will end up very much like the CGS22.

I like the /7 and /3 to fill two of the open spots. They could easily be alternates at the /2, /4 or /8 divider positions.
/1.5 is probably in at this point too.

3 spots left!

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Re: Clock Dividers. Essential Range and Divisors?

Post by stepvhen » Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:37 am

I had missed the part about the comparator threshold, thats a good plan.

If you can't come to a conclusion on those last dividers, why not make them user-setable? A CD4089 and a 4 position dip-switch would let the user set whatever division they wanted between 1 and 16. You could chain two together and get any number between 1-256.

Or, if one of those jacks can be inputs as well, you could create a 2-position voltage controlled switch, combined with the 4089 user setting above, you can create fancy jazz time signatures like 7/4 out of 3/4+4/4. The two outputs would then drive the downbeats/backbeats, while the quarter note clock (or whatever) would drive the rest. Given 1-256 divisions for each output, you could then drive them with faster clocks, and have baselines of 16th notes or 32nd notes.

Keeping the switch under voltagte control allows passing in some pulse wave at 25%, 50%, 75%, etc to produce combinations of bars, e.g. 2/4+2/4+3/4, assuming the total length of the pulse accomodates the two divisions. This could be achieved with one of the /N outputs elsewhere, given a proper width (if I understand that right).

This last idea actually only uses two jacks, if both times are fed into the same output controlled by the input, then you have one jack left over.

I actually like that idea, I might make something similar myself at some point.

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Re: Clock Dividers. Essential Range and Divisors?

Post by KSS » Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:26 pm

Some nice ideas. Some already implemented. As for input jacks? They are mostly TRS already.
Aux Ins to the mixers are TS. I don't see them being viable for any dual use.

As for space to put *any* additional panel components? Look at that panel! No space available. The half panel 1097X is similarly already quite full.

However, your first point is actually what's in place for at least some of these. Since the chip divders are already there, the switch simply chooses one or another of its outputs. That's how we get /3 or /7 from a chip that's already doing /2, 4, or 8. Pick up the "3" or "7" from a 4017 too. A PCB HDR choice is easy to add. Finding the required space to do -too- much of this is less so.

Maintaining useful labeling remains important.

With the 1097X providing the per divider inputs 'missing' from the main module, the switch select -VC or otherwise- that you laid out is available.

There are already quite a few PCB jumpers onboard for user-configured choices! It can all too quickly become over-done.

Even this alternate divisor choice per divider by pushbutton dances on the edge of 'too much'. Since that use prevents or marginalizes the original primary idea to have the PBs be only mutes of a particular division in the mixed output. For playability. If F-F latches are used with the black tact style buttons seen in the banana jack version, then the physical indication of which divisor is currently active disappears. It *was* seen in the lighted PB's actuator height. Corresponding to the labeling. Tall actuator equals upper label. Low actuator means lower label. There's not enough room for push on-push off switches between the jacks. Along with the cost of all this starting to become a concern. <--Though this format is not at all aimed at being low end. Cost conscious, but not cost driven.

There's a PCB JMP to select on-off *or* divider output for the lamp of the PB. Because while many people like blinky lights, for some they can be a distraction. Ears can be enough.

The two submini' toggles seen at the top and bottom of the 4-9 dividers are envisioned as a means to invert the outputs for "musical" v "mathematical" output. Only one would ultimately be used. As can be seen in the banana version, which is the panel most loaded with options.
Looking at it, the first thing which bothers me is the submini toggle for music v math is over in the mix section, yet its action is on the dividers' polarity?? That's a logical disconnect to me. The plan to move this from the expansion half module to the main was a late change. it does seem to be worthy of main panel positioning. Especially considering how well it pairs with the Aux In mixing.

But in putting its switch over there above the mixing, the tact switches which *do* set divisor choice are 'correctly' located.-if mute PB's are favored. My first thought in adding the tacts for divisor choice is that it would matter less that they didn't express physical indication of which divisor was in effect with large divisor difference between their settings. You'd hear it fairly quickly. See it in the lamp too. I don't much mind that they aren't especially really playable sitting there between the jacks, since they don't seem to me to be a setting that one would 'play. At least not in comparison to the dropping or adding of entire divisions with the mute buttons.

The alternate divisor choices for the 6 upper positions were originally wholly planned for the 1097X. Where they could again use the larger physical position visible PB's. Could be that's still where they belong.

Thanks for your input!

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Re: Clock Dividers. Essential Range and Divisors?

Post by synthetic » Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:04 pm

I *love* the prime divisors in my Doepfer A160-2 clock divider. One of the first things I did with my Euro modular was stick a square wave into the clock divider, select primes, and make a self-playing patch with that. Fun for hours.

For my personal taste your clock divider is moving into feature creep zone, or the UI needs a rethink. For example, perhaps not every output needs every feature. But there's a bunch of clock dividers out there so maybe the UberDivider is what we need next. :)

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Re: Clock Dividers. Essential Range and Divisors?

Post by KSS » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:38 am

synthetic wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:04 pm
For my personal taste your clock divider is moving into feature creep zone, or the UI needs a rethink.
Yes. This is one reason for showing its layout. Sharing for paring.

But the drawings also look more garish and filled than the real modules. Once the panels and parts get here I'll show the difference.

And I'm not bothered by unused -or mostly unused- features. Things that get squeezed in for the rare times you're willing to put up with their less than ideal location for the function they give.. For example, one doesn't have to use *any* of the panel jacks, knobs or switches to still have a pretty comprehensive selection and use of the module.

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