Are VCFs better for percussive sounds than VCOs?

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AuFX
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Are VCFs better for percussive sounds than VCOs?

Post by AuFX » Tue May 05, 2015 7:05 pm

In a lot of videos of modular percussion they use self oscillating VCFs to create the sound rather than a VCO.
Why is this?

I feel like I'm not adding much to forum with these sort of threads , I just hate having questions in my head unanswered.

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Post by Snoozebugs » Tue May 05, 2015 7:24 pm

Would like to know some more about this to!

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Post by AuFX » Tue May 05, 2015 7:30 pm

Snoozebugs wrote:Would like to know some more about this to!
Great, that tells I have asked a good question after all :party:

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fantastic apparatus
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Post by fantastic apparatus » Tue May 05, 2015 7:52 pm

I thought it was to get a sine wave for the kick if the regular vco's are only versions of triangle and square.

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EarlJemmings
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Post by EarlJemmings » Tue May 05, 2015 7:53 pm

It depends on the filter, I think. Neither of mine are that great for it.

It has to do with how the envelope effects pitch. With a filter, it nice and easily punches the pitch of the oscillation, whereas with an oscillator it takes since extra patching (envelope, possibly a second one to FM in, and a vca after)

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Post by Opus110 » Tue May 05, 2015 9:46 pm

In a small or medium system, chances are your oscillators will be used for main sound production and audio-rate modulation (fm or am) of various parameters in your patch. To use them just for a kick sound, for example, is a bit of a waste, as you're depriving yourself from a lot of audio or modulation possibilities. Makes sense, therefore, to use a filter that's not in use in the patch.

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Post by listentoaheartbeat » Wed May 06, 2015 2:12 am

One thing you can do with a filter you cannot so with an oscillator is what is commonly called "pinging". You set the resonance just below self-oscillation and feed the audio input short triggers. These briefly push the filter into oscillation, so you get a nice decaying sine wave. The length of the decay depends on how close you have set the resonance to self-oscilation. The trigger length is very important in this patch, so try a trigger source with variable length.

It's a very efficient patch, you get a percussive sound just with a trigger source and a filter. You can additionally FM the filter for more interesting timbres, or AM the output, or send it to some sort of a non-linear function like a wave folder for dynamically added harmonics. Mixing multiple detuned, pinged filters can also be very interesting, it gives you all kinds of mallet sounds. Send two detuned, pinged filters into a wave folder - you will be astonished by the range of plausible sounding percussion sounds you get. Not all filters are well suited for this, just try it with what you have. Additionally, you can search the forum for "ping" or "pinging", you will get countless threads with more info.

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Post by mothertongue » Wed May 06, 2015 2:24 am

I regularly use my filters (uVCF, L-1 2180) as sine oscillators for drum and rhythmic uses. I send one of the Klee gate busses to the drum, and another to a hihat (filtered noise). Then v/oct CV goes to my combo of Pittsburgh oscillators for melody.

The thumping self-oscillation of a filter is somehow more satisfying than my normal oscillators. Low frequencies really shake the room.

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Post by Voggg » Thu May 07, 2015 10:07 am

Verbos ATC is fantastic for percussion. My other filters are not (on their own at least).

As an alternative to pinging, you can set it to self-oscillate and use an AD envelope on the frequency.

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listentoaheartbeat
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Post by listentoaheartbeat » Thu May 07, 2015 10:45 am

Voggg wrote:Verbos ATC is fantastic for percussion. My other filters are not (on their own at least).

As an alternative to pinging, you can set it to self-oscillate and use an AD envelope on the frequency.
Pinging creates a sound with decaying amplitude, not pitch. An alternative to pinging would be setting the filter to self-oscillation and gating the output with a VCA or equivalent, controlled by an envelope. In both cases, you can additionally control the frequency with an envelope to add a slope to the pitch.

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Post by darmklacht@gmail.com » Thu May 07, 2015 11:35 am

my theory is that a sine doesnt really any harmonics and therefore the (low) fundimental makes more impact.

also the ampltude decay when being pinged sonds very natural to me, and isnt very easy to replicate using a vca and decay envelope.

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Post by Voggg » Thu May 07, 2015 4:09 pm

listentoaheartbeat wrote:
Voggg wrote:Verbos ATC is fantastic for percussion. My other filters are not (on their own at least).

As an alternative to pinging, you can set it to self-oscillate and use an AD envelope on the frequency.
Pinging creates a sound with decaying amplitude, not pitch. An alternative to pinging would be setting the filter to self-oscillation and gating the output with a VCA or equivalent, controlled by an envelope. In both cases, you can additionally control the frequency with an envelope to add a slope to the pitch.
Yeah. What I meant by alternative was a way to get a slightly different sound. Depending on the filter slope, you don't need a VCA and the pitch decay often sounds good for percussion.

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PrimateSynthesis
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Post by PrimateSynthesis » Thu May 07, 2015 4:23 pm

Another thing you can do with pinging is send it through a distortion set to clip the beginning of the signal to get an "attack" sound.

You can also run the output of the pinged filter through an envelope follower back into a CV input so the pitch changes with the decaying amplitude.
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Post by listentoaheartbeat » Thu May 07, 2015 4:50 pm

PrimateSynthesis wrote:You can also run the output of the pinged filter through an envelope follower back into a CV input so the pitch changes with the decaying amplitude.
Good one! :tu:

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Post by Audiohub » Fri May 08, 2015 1:05 am

The EMU modular system LP filter had a switch built in to couple the trigger from 2 different keyboards directly to the input for just such a purpose. It was labeled as "Keyboard Percussion", and the first place I saw this technique mentioned.

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Post by Navs » Fri May 08, 2015 10:39 am

Two other possible reasons why pinged filters sound good:

because the impulse is fed to the audio input, it becomes part of the attack.

A unipolar trigger might cause the filter to distort (10V spike vs 5Vpp audio).

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Post by Modorange » Fri May 08, 2015 4:46 pm

You get that nice sine wave sound with the oscillated filter, and the non-pitched tone as well. however ironically it then BECOMES an oscillator...

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Post by PrimateSynthesis » Fri May 08, 2015 5:26 pm

Navs wrote: because the impulse is fed to the audio input, it becomes part of the attack.

A unipolar trigger might cause the filter to distort (10V spike vs 5Vpp audio).
Those are both good points. I've never seen a gate/trigger that wasn't unipolar, although its amplitude varies depending on the system.
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Post by wednesdayayay » Sat May 09, 2015 5:49 am

this idea of filters used for drums is the primary driving principle behind the ciat-lonbarde plumbutter

the PB is good fun :omg:
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Post by timoka » Sat May 23, 2015 5:58 am

pinging filters are really good for percussion like sounds.
res-4 is the master of these sounds, tune the four filters, set the decay (bw) of the filters and you have a good fundament for physical modelling of drums.
here is an example i shamelessly repost from the your tunes section:

http://soundcloud.com/uzala/tribal-pings

all sounds come from pinging res-4 and qmmf-4.

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Post by Graham Hinton » Sat May 23, 2015 7:44 am

Audiohub wrote:The EMU modular system LP filter had a switch built in to couple the trigger from 2 different keyboards directly to the input for just such a purpose. It was labeled as "Keyboard Percussion", and the first place I saw this technique mentioned.
That was the Multimode/Universal Filter and the idea was pinched from the ARP 1047. The Gate switches the Q for a different decay and release rate.

The real difference between pinging a filter and enveloping a VCO is that filter is responding to an excitation voltage so it will always have the same phase relationship to it under the same conditions. A free running VCO will have random phase unless it can be reset/synchronised and then it won't be the same because the VCF pinging is more of a "preset" than a "reset" action.

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Post by solitaryzen » Sun May 24, 2015 1:45 am

timoka wrote:pinging filters are really good for percussion like sounds.
res-4 is the master of these sounds, tune the four filters, set the decay (bw) of the filters and you have a good fundament for physical modelling of drums.
here is an example i shamelessly repost from the your tunes section:

http://soundcloud.com/uzala/tribal-pings

all sounds come from pinging res-4 and qmmf-4.
That's great!

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Post by jcn7 » Sun May 24, 2015 11:08 am

Here are 2 examples I have recently done that use my filters for percussive duties...in fact my 2 104 hp Euro systems don't have traditional oscillators in either of them. I prefer using filters and other modules in place of traditional oscillators.

1) [soundcloud url="https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/206814482" params="auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&visual=true" width="100%" height="450" iframe="true" /]



2) [soundcloud url="https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/206859068" params="auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&visual=true" width="100%" height="450" iframe="true" /]
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Post by Etan » Sun May 24, 2015 12:32 pm

jcn7 this sounds really great. Could you please explain how you did that (only with pinging filters with short triggers?) and which filters you were using?

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Post by FetidEye » Sun May 24, 2015 2:04 pm

percussion is not all sine drum sounds.

use noise for more variation (a noise module or synthesize it using multiple square waves)

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