Triadex "The Muse" pics and sound clips.

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Satellite Icarus
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Post by Satellite Icarus » Sat May 25, 2019 6:16 pm

Hi everyone!

I'm interested in making a Pure Data version of the Triadex. For the sake of accuracy I'm interested in knowing more about the chips used for the shift registers and the 5 bit dac, as well as how it implemented the "major scale translation".

If anyone has details, or ideas, I'd be super curious to know more. I understand a legible copy of the schematic or a picture of the guts with legible markings may be a lot to ask for, but if you have that and are willing to share it, that would also work great.

If this info is somewhere else (I may have missed something!), feel free to point in that direction and I'll merrily go on my way. Thanks in advance for thinking about it, looking forward to knowing what people think.

Ezra

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Post by Rob_C » Mon May 27, 2019 8:16 pm

A 1972 Triadex Muse is for sale on that "popular auction site."

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Soy Sos
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Post by Soy Sos » Mon May 27, 2019 9:01 pm

Checked that auction, listed as semi functional. I wouldn't suggest anyone touch it with a 10 foot pole at that price. I have one on a long term loan to Pitt Mod and as cool and weird as it is, it's kind a one trick pony. A unique pony, but with one trick. Also the sound generation element of it is DEAD BASIC.

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Post by Satellite Icarus » Wed May 29, 2019 3:10 pm

Any chance you have time to open it up and send me pictures of the chips it uses with legible markings? Or a schematic.

Thanks in advance!

Ezra

Edit: woops, misunderstood you had one on loan /from/ pitt mod, not that yours was on loan /to/ them. I'll ask MJ.

Feel free to ignore this message!

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Soy Sos
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Post by Soy Sos » Wed May 29, 2019 8:23 pm

It is mine, on loan to Pitt Mod actually.
I'll see if I can get a chance sometime soon

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shoegazer86
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Post by shoegazer86 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:32 pm

Also seconded for clear photos, I am working on a replica of the PCB as well!
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Re:

Post by maltemark » Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:03 pm

fitzgreyve wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:31 am
maltemark wrote:fitzgreyve: how is your commendable work coming along?
I now have the basic user interface working (lots of blinkenlights) . The software is currently still running on a different processor board to the target module, so I now need to port it across to the correct processor (always fun!), and I can then finalise the features.

Image

Before anyone asks, those are alpha pots with clear shafts (knobs not yet fitted) and bi-colour LEDs underneath - the LEDs show the current state of each control, the display is currently showing the setting of the "active" control.
Wow, looks amazing! Thanks for the update on the progress. Porting, no, not always a favorite activity ....
Feel free to use my old samplepacks: https://freesound.org/people/altemark/
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fitzgreyve
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Re: Re:

Post by fitzgreyve » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:07 am

maltemark wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:03 pm
Wow, looks amazing! Thanks for the update on the progress. Porting, no, not always a favorite activity ....
Still working on this, approximately 95% complete. My current issue is getting configuration setting storage working (the PIC I selected uses High Endurance Flash, previously I've been used to using EEPROM)
Under developement:
- "Muse"
---------------------------------------
https://fitzgreyve2.blogspot.com/

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fitzgreyve
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Re:

Post by fitzgreyve » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:14 am

Satellite Icarus wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 6:16 pm
the 5 bit dac, as well as how it implemented the "major scale translation".
It's actually a 4 bit DAC - the lower three bits (interval A,B,C) select the note of a major scale, if the the high bit (interval D) is active it shifts this up by one octave.
(Ref: Muse manual "how to make muse music", P.18 "what is going on inside the Muse").
Under developement:
- "Muse"
---------------------------------------
https://fitzgreyve2.blogspot.com/

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Prance
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Re: Triadex "The Muse" pics and sound clips.

Post by Prance » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:51 pm

Bringing this thread into 2020,

I recently received donaldcrunk's Muse with the intention of studying and making it operational again. Since the power supply transformers have seen better days, I don't completely trust my measurements as to what voltages they supply the system.

Does anyone with a working Muse want to get the probes out for me? If I can find the specs of the power supply, then I can move to the next step of repairing and restoring this peculiar machine.

Many thanks.
"If it sounds good, then it is good."
Tom

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Re: Triadex "The Muse" pics and sound clips.

Post by KSS » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:34 am

Prance wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:51 pm
Bringing this thread into 2020,
I recently received donaldcrunk's Muse with the intention of studying and making it operational again. Since the power supply transformers have seen better days, I don't completely trust my measurements as to what voltages they supply the system.

Does anyone with a working Muse want to get the probes out for me? If I can find the specs of the power supply, then I can move to the next step of repairing and restoring this peculiar machine.

Many thanks.
Seriously? You can't garner clues from the electrolytic caps and vregs, diodes or pertinent voltage circuits? Are the chips TTL, CMOS? Better send this to a real tech, if as you say it's a peculiar machine to you. Sorry to have such a negative reaction. Have seen far too much gear ruined by well-meaning but inexperienced would-be techs.

Take a few detailed pics of the PCBs and I'd bet many here could answer your questions from those alone.

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Prance
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Re: Triadex "The Muse" pics and sound clips.

Post by Prance » Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:11 pm

Hey KSS, I wish I did have these answers,

The chips likely are TTL logic of some sort, but there are no data sheets available to me, and looking for a schematic of the Muse has been less than enlightening. There is the photo of the drafted schematic on Matrixsynth, but the search for a digital copy has been fruitless (someone please prove me wrong on that!).

The power supply is not made of regulators, but made of two transformers, both of which are damaged on the unit I'm working on.
Measuring the secondaries of the power transformers tells me these chips operate at low voltages but I'm struggling to find conventional AC-DC circuitry. There are no rectifying diodes or voltage regulators on the board (Unless they are somehow hiding in a DIP package). And similarly there is no data available to me on the specifications of the transformers.

I wouldn't dream of attempting to plug in the PCB to a power supply that I cannot characterize. If I can find the specs, my intention is to either A) Determine if the original transformers can be used with confidence, or B) Design an equivalent supply so that I can continue repair.
"If it sounds good, then it is good."
Tom

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Re: Triadex "The Muse" pics and sound clips.

Post by KSS » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:17 am

Prance wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:11 pm
Hey KSS, I wish I did have these answers,
Take a series of detailed pictures -phone pics are fine- and we can work it out. Both sides, many angles, including chip names. You might even have RTL chips. *Any* numbers on the transformers is also useful. Take pics of those also.

Some fuzzy photos already been shared, can't understand why photos of these seem to share the ever-present fuzz effect of purported Sasquatch pics. Why are those -and these- so hard to take decent photos of? :despair: I have a good guess on the former, but not on these! :hihi:

Give us some good pics and we'll get your answers.

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Re: Triadex "The Muse" pics and sound clips.

Post by KSS » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:54 am

Took a couple pics from earlier in the thread and marked them up for you.

red ovals are Power inputs from transformers. Left is lamp supply and is likely AC.Single smoothing filter cap. Right is main supply and added red lines show direct traces to resistor and V+ filter cap- on backside, and seen in 2nd photo. Ground-common-0V traces are obvious. Fairly easy to trace a schematic from this kind of simple PCB.

Wouldn't bother worrrying about the lamp transformer unless the measured AC is wild and high. Expect it to be either nominal 12 or 24VAC. Could be 6VAC, but less likely IME.

Yellow are outlines of parts on opposite PCB side, labelled in 2nd pic. Orange ?? near main power input are likely 723 or similar regulators, or Dip 14 single op amps. Or one of each, as used in ARP PSUs.

Two TO-3 sockets labelled orange ?? up top middle in first pic and covered by fish paper in second are either power transistors or Vregs. Or one of each. Possibly for output audio if transistors. edit. These are RCA connectors. just confirmed in a 3rd pic. /edit

PCB mounted audio output transformer near speaker is obvious.

The main transformer has a bleed resistor and AC cap on top of what appears to be possibly a rectifier PCB. Scope the wires coming from it to see if they're rippled DC or AC. Expect they're rippled DC. Which would explain the lack of rectifier diodes on the PCB. We do see glass diodes on the PCB in the likely PSU area, but these ar most likely switching-steering.

As you can see one can do a lot with a photo. These are only initial best guess possibles. Give us some up close and detailed pics to work with and we'll get more accurate results.
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Prance
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Re: Triadex "The Muse" pics and sound clips.

Post by Prance » Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:21 am

Here are some pictures and some of my best guesses as well. Additional comments are underneath the photos.

IMG_0227.JPG
This is the main power transformer, the AC cap has been removed (not by me) so I am not able to completely trust my readings

TransformerDetail.jpg
Sasquatch closeup of the leads leaving the power transformer, I have the capacitor but the leads were cut off in a way that is not salvageable (again, not by me)
The Gladding-Keystone part number of this transformer was on top of the potting, it was unfortunately removed when the capacitor was.
Readings of the transformer show:
8.2VAC between Red and White
4.8VAC between Blue and White
White is connected to the large ground planes on the PCB

IMG_0238.JPG
The power connector to the PCB, the pin of the blue conductor is the opposite gender to avoid plugging it in backwards.

BulbTransformer.jpg
This is the bulb transformer as I received the unit. There are 3 taps on this and wires are soldered to two, I am assuming the tap on the left is unused but I am not completely certain since it seems to have a splicing on the end of the conductor. Whether is is due to damage or a deliberate part of manufacturing is unknown to me.
The readings are:
4.4VAC between Red and White
4.4VAC between Green and White
8.5VAC between Green and Red
This makes it seem like this was an 8V transformer where only the center tap was used and the full tap was left open, but again, unknown.

Power Inlet.jpg
This is where the main power transformer enters the PCB, There are no obvious rectifier diodes. Glass diodes are unattached from the main power inputs.
The two DIP ICs on each side of the power inlets are both labelled "7045 TR1016." They could be used as a part of the power supply but I cannot confirm that. Both chips exist in substantially different configurations.
The MTA marking on the cap points to a series the Mallory had in the time period this was made, but there is no Mallory branding and it does not look like the catalog pictures I've seen.

AmpDetail.jpg
Here is a map of my best guess for the audio amplification circuit, I find it strange that the volume slider is on the secondary side of the transformer. The slider is not configured as a potential divider but rather a variable resistor. I am yet to find any connection from the speaker terminal and ground like you'd find in conventional circuits.
Note the red cap in the bottom left is not connected to the bottom lead of the white "from slider" cap.

IMG_0235.JPG
The output transformer with part number visible.

IMG_0232.JPG
The LED driver chips, powered off of the bulb transformer. Note that these are the same part numbers as the Audio amp IC "TR1023". This leads me to believe they are pretty basic driver ICs. I am starting to believe that the top numbers are a date code, possibly referring to "1970, week 50" and "1970, week 51"

LargeDIP.jpg
Lastly, here are the large DIP packages, likely the bit registers that drive the sequencers. There are so many weaving traces on here it's hard to keep from going cross eyed let alone following every one... Part numbers on all of the large DIPs are TR1001

I am unsure if any of this is usable information or not, please feel free to ask me for clarification or additional pictures.
I really appreciate the effort you put into your response, KSS
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Tom

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Re: Triadex "The Muse" pics and sound clips.

Post by KSS » Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:33 am

Nice to see the photos. The last one -large chips- does not load for me.
Yes, agree the 70xx are date codes.
Also agree the "NP" is likely non-polarized -10mfd,10V, NonPolarized- and they do look like Mallory. Or Sprague, who was big in the MA,USA area back then too.
The S in box logo might be Sylvania, and "TR" could stand for Transitron, which was one of the largest semi mfrs late 60's when Triadex would be sourcing their Muse BOM. They were also both located in Massachusetts, so proximity might also be a clue. Transitron was mostly discrete parts before '66.

Transitron re-badged Sylvania SUHL -the original name for TTL, given by its 'first to share' inventor, Longo. Who was hired by Transitron away from Sylvania in '66. He'd given the first paper on his functional SUHL-TTL in '63 while with Sylvania.

Here's a link to what appears to be someone else pursuing the same path some years back. Unfortunately, it's a dead end on the main point.
https://www.electronicspoint.com/forums ... ily.13308/

But it does mention a 5.6V supply, so that's 'potentially' helpful. :hihi:

Pull the main transformer and take a few more pics of its upper assembly. Try to get the underside. This appears to be a 3rd party 'DC' PSU Triadex got somewhere -I remember seeing this kind of thing for sale way back then.

Would be also useful to have a couple square on, perpendicular full PCB, front and back photos. What movie makers would call establishing shots.

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Re: Triadex "The Muse" pics and sound clips.

Post by KSS » Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:01 am

The bulb transformer unused lead splice is probably just the OEM leads, clipped off by Triadex's mfg. See the photo I marked up -only two leads used, and the connector there is not soldered in its 3rd contact. Agree the TR1023 are simple drivers. Quite a need for 'high' current drivers when Nixies and incandescent bulbs were still common. You might want to see if the pinout matches old display drivers chips of that era. Like the 7441, for example.

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Re: Triadex "The Muse" pics and sound clips.

Post by KSS » Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:26 am

The Amp Detail photo completely hides the black rectifier diode seen in your power inlet pic. Betweenthe tropical fish cap and the "blue" side TR1016. This Diode, IC and surrounding components is clearly the V+ reg ckt. You've labelled it "Blue". Once you share the second PCB side pic we can draw its schematic.

Are there any other black rectifier diodes hiding anywhere on the PCB?

The 4V you measured for the lamp transformer makes sense if the grain-of-wheat lamps are 6V. They might even be 12V and run low to last a long time.

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Re: Triadex "The Muse" pics and sound clips.

Post by jkjelec » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:45 am

I recall that there was a chapter about "The Muse" in the book Musical Applications of Microprocessors by Hal Chamberlin. Maybe it's just block diagrams and theory; but maybe there's some information there that could be useful for debugging.

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Re: Triadex "The Muse" pics and sound clips.

Post by KSS » Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:49 pm

jkjelec wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:45 am
I recall that there was a chapter about "The Muse" in the book Musical Applications of Microprocessors by Hal Chamberlin. Maybe it's just block diagrams and theory; but maybe there's some information there that could be useful for debugging.
Yes. Useful, but needs to be paired with the Muse programming manual and the patent text and description. Each has faults that are illuminated when all are taken together. The till.com site comments also a good add to this Muse docs grouping.

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Re: Triadex "The Muse" pics and sound clips.

Post by KyronMusic » Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:39 pm

First off a HUGE shout out and thanks to Prance for being the first person to ever post DECENT photos of the Triadex innards. You’re the Man!!! :hail:
Secondly, for the record you’re all reading the part numbers incorrectly. The third character is not a “1” as in TR1001... in fact it’s the letter “I” (capital i). Notice for example the 001 is printed slightly offset from the TRI. Also the last character “1” is a “Sarif” font with the little cap and base. Quite different from the “I”.
In fact all the chip numbers are “House numbers”. If we could only guess what TRI stands for??? “TRI Again”, we’re “TRIpping you up”, oh gheee... “TRIADEX” 😏.
I’m sure (having done it many times in the past 30+ years), that if I had a series of overlapping photos of the top and bottom of the board (taken in a grid pattern dead on, not angled), I could reverse engineer the schematics. I reverse engineered a “Rotary Speaker Simulator” for a friend about 25 years ago to fix it. It too was a double sided PCB and had all the chip numbers sanded off. The dead part was an 8038 VCO. Not overly common in commercial audio boxes of the day. I Love a challenge.
Cheers everyone :guinness: , Dean.

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