How do I retrigger envelopes?

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loubulb
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How do I retrigger envelopes?

Post by loubulb » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:44 pm

noob question here:

I haven't figured out a way to do this but it's probably something simple I'm overlooking.

I'm using a keyboard to send pitch and gate CV. The gate is multed to control a separate envelope for my filter cutoff. I'd like my envelopes to re-trigger every time I play a new note but if I have them set with a long release the envelopes won't retrigger until the initial envelope has finished.

Is there a way to truncate an envelope before its end, and start it fresh with every new gate?

Thanks :deadbanana:

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ersatzplanet
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Re: How do I retrigger envelopes?

Post by ersatzplanet » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:55 pm

loubulb wrote:noob question here:

I haven't figured out a way to do this but it's probably something simple I'm overlooking.

I'm using a keyboard to send pitch and gate CV. The gate is multed to control a separate envelope for my filter cutoff. I'd like my envelopes to re-trigger every time I play a new note but if I have them set with a long release the envelopes won't retrigger until the initial envelope has finished.

Is there a way to truncate an envelope before its end, and start it fresh with every new gate?

Thanks :deadbanana:
"Back in the Day" this was done with a analogue keyboard that produced CV, Gate, and Trigger signals. You also needed a Envelope Generator that took both Gates and Triggers (all the Arp ones did, and many others). The EG's Attack and Decay sections would repeat when the trigger happened (the sustain would have to not be full up for this to work) and the keyboards produced a new trigger whenever the keys were pressed even if one was already held down (making the gate). I know of no MIDI>CV converters or newer keyboard that make the trigger signal and not many Envelope Generators have both Gate and Trigger inputs either (most of the Doepfer ones do).
-James

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racooniac
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Post by racooniac » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:23 pm

i think my rampage retriggers in the falling stage, it just doesnt retrigger in the rising stage.

different envelope generators may behave differently here

loubulb
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Re: How do I retrigger envelopes?

Post by loubulb » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:34 pm

"Back in the Day" this was done with a analogue keyboard that produced CV, Gate, and Trigger signals. You also needed a Envelope Generator that took both Gates and Triggers (all the Arp ones did, and many others). The EG's Attack and Decay sections would repeat when the trigger happened (the sustain would have to not be full up for this to work) and the keyboards produced a new trigger whenever the keys were pressed even if one was already held down (making the gate). I know of no MIDI>CV converters or newer keyboard that make the trigger signal and not many Envelope Generators have both Gate and Trigger inputs either (most of the Doepfer ones do).[/quote]


Thanks James
I have a Doepfer A-140 ADSR. I figured the "Retrig" jack would take care of my problem but it hasn't. Maybe I've had my sustain up every time I've tried and that's the problem?
In any case it's strange that this isn't easier to accomplish.

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ersatzplanet
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Re: How do I retrigger envelopes?

Post by ersatzplanet » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:54 pm

loubulb wrote:Thanks James
I have a Doepfer A-140 ADSR. I figured the "Retrig" jack would take care of my problem but it hasn't. Maybe I've had my sustain up every time I've tried and that's the problem?
In any case it's strange that this isn't easier to accomplish.
The "Retrig" is exactly what that is for and you need to have the sustain lower than full to "see" it. Here is a drawing from the manual showing how it works:

Image

If the sustain is all the way up, whether you are re-triggering or not, the decay section is not heard because the sustain level is as high as the highest peak of the A/D section of the Envelope.

The problem lies in nobody making keyboards that provide both a Gate an Trigger. Almost all modern keyboards are based on MIDI keyboard electronics with MIDI>CV converters built into them. There is no MIDI "Trigger" command, just a "Note on" and "Note Off" commands converted to Gate on/off, so the makers would have to create a circuit that makes a trigger (a short pulse) every time a "Note On" would happen (from another key being pressed). Nobody seems to do that, at least I am not aware of anybody doing it.
-James

James Husted - Synthwerks, LLC - www.synthwerks.com - info@synthwerks.com - james@synthwerks.com
Synthwerks is a proud member of the Mostly Modular Trade Association (http://www.mostlymodular.com).
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ersatzplanet
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Post by ersatzplanet » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:11 pm

I just did a quick search and it seems that many MIDI converters have Trigger outs but they are assigned to particular notes and used to trigger drum machines (assigning different notes to trigger outs). Be aware that if a MIDI>CV converter has a "Trigger" out, it is not always the classic keyboard trigger out.

The Analogue Systems RS-140 is one that DOES do triggers and gates (and even Moog S-trigger). from the manual - "You may select multi-triggering or single triggering. (Note: this setting affects all three Trigger outputs simultaneously.) If you select multi-triggering, an output will be generated every time a MIDI NOTE ON is received. If multi-triggering is disabled, a signal will only be generated when no previous notes are still held." THIS is the perfect converter for the job.
-James

James Husted - Synthwerks, LLC - www.synthwerks.com - info@synthwerks.com - james@synthwerks.com
Synthwerks is a proud member of the Mostly Modular Trade Association (http://www.mostlymodular.com).
Always looking to trade for Doepfer P6 cases

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racooniac
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Post by racooniac » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:13 pm

can your keyboard speak midi also?

then one could invest 6HP into a module that can do this: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/intellijel-%C2%B5midi

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Dave Peck
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Re: How do I retrigger envelopes?

Post by Dave Peck » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:30 pm

loubulb wrote:noob question here:

I haven't figured out a way to do this but it's probably something simple I'm overlooking.

I'm using a keyboard to send pitch and gate CV. The gate is multed to control a separate envelope for my filter cutoff. I'd like my envelopes to re-trigger every time I play a new note but if I have them set with a long release the envelopes won't retrigger until the initial envelope has finished.

Is there a way to truncate an envelope before its end, and start it fresh with every new gate?

Thanks :deadbanana:

Hmm... The replies above about how gates & triggers work are correct, but after re-reading your OP, you have a different issue. You say the envelope won't start again (won't re-trigger) when it has a long RELEASE time, unless you wait until the envelope has FINISHED the RELEASE segment.

Are you sure? Because that would indicate that this envelope has an unusual feature or setting, sometimes referred to as "one shot", which would force the envelope to go all the way through all segments once it gets a start gate/trigger, ignoring any new gates/triggers that happen until the envelope has completely run it's course and completely ended.

It's very rare for an envelope to work this way. Typically, even if there is only a GATE signal and no separate TRIGGER signal patched to the envelope, the envelope will re-start from whatever point it is at (mid-decay, the sustain portion, somewhere in the release portion) as long as you release ALL depressed keys on the keyboard and press a new key (sending a new GATE signal to re-start the envelope).

Can you clarify how the envelope is behaving when you release all keys and press a new key BEFORE the envelope release portion has completed?

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luketeaford
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Post by luketeaford » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:52 pm

Just in case you're working with Eurorack and have a Maths, it retriggers when you patch to the trigger input. If you don't want retriggering, patch to the Cycle input.

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diode_destroyer
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Post by diode_destroyer » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:49 pm

Probably your gate out from the keyboard just isn't notched (goes to zero for ~ 1 ms when pressing a new key eveyn if holding old one down). Some keyboards don't do this. You should be able to play a key, lift it, and then quickly press another key, then see if your system retriggers. If it does, then your gate out from the keyboard is the problem (not notched). In that case, if your keyboard does midi out, get a kenton modular solo or something like it and that will take care of your problem.

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