How can u tell if a board is analog?

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Chopper
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Post by Chopper » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:56 pm

zoogoo wrote:Isn't speed a huge factor? When a digital signal is stretched out over a long time between the integers ,at some point you will detect space. Maybe when it making acid bass it won't matter,what about ambient music.the digital modules might lack the elasticity. But then again,using software, I can only tell in the workflow of modeling the sound,not any difference it "how it sounds". But there feeling of toying is undeniably a dfferent sensation.
Unfonded speculations mixed with a huge amount of nonsensical statements.

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Shledge
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Post by Shledge » Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:21 pm

You won't detect any "space" - it would just generate a longer signal that would still be smooth. You're confusing it with a sampler. Digital modules won't use samples unless it's function is a sampler/sample player.

For example, modules like Braids can output at 96khz at 16bit - that's a lot higher than what the human ear can even detect. No matter what you do, unless you deliberately change the samplerate/bit depth in settings, you won't get aliasing.

A lot of digital modules also have interpolation on their outputs to further smooth the signal. The output is analogue regardless.

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folpon
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Post by folpon » Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:51 pm

idk guys I was reading this interview with Elon Musk in Cosmo and apparently it's like 99.999/100 odds our entire universe is a giant digital simulation intended to amuse an ancient race of bored ur-humans. so anyone who says they can hear the difference between "quote-unquote analog" and digital has got to be fakin' it imo :guinness:

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Post by ranix » Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:01 pm

the only supporting evidence I've seen in favor of the digital simulation theory is that photons in a vacuum behave in ways that appear to be designed to save rendering power. They don't interact unless being observed (culling).

The otherwise apparently-analog and fractal nature of the universe doesn't make much sense unless we're in an analog computer.

I don't know what to think myself, but set theory and fractal theory both imply the existence of one or more gods.

Until more evidence is forthcoming I will continue to be a devoted worshiper of Ronnie James Dio

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Post by JakoGreyshire » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:37 am

ignatius wrote:you should get a clouds and a braids. 100% analog.

edit: calm down people. it's just the internet.
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thetwlo wrote:watch out for the newer vactrolls, as they use a digital light source, you want to make sure your modules have cathode ray vactrolls. :hihi:
folpon wrote:idk guys I was reading this interview with Elon Musk in Cosmo and apparently it's like 99.999/100 odds our entire universe is a giant digital simulation intended to amuse an ancient race of bored ur-humans. so anyone who says they can hear the difference between "quote-unquote analog" and digital has got to be fakin' it imo :guinness:
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Post by MrsWedge » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:28 am

Digital circuitry is just (very) non-linear analog circuitry. An op-amp used as a comparator has not been magically converted to a 'digital' component, it is merely being forced to act in a non-linear manner. Log/antilog amps are also non-linear circuits and are a crucial part of analog computation.

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Post by luchog » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:31 am

Shledge wrote:For example, modules like Braids can output at 96khz at 16bit - that's a lot higher than what the human ear can even detect. No matter what you do, unless you deliberately change the samplerate/bit depth in settings, you won't get aliasing.

A lot of digital modules also have interpolation on their outputs to further smooth the signal. The output is analogue regardless.
See, the problem with that is that it only applies to the faithful reproduction of sounds, recreating sound waves. When it comes to actually generating, and particularly manipulating sound, there are definitely differences between digital and analog circuitry; as was mentioned earlier in the thread.

Digital circuitry is prone to a number of effects that are substantially different from analog, such as "stair-stepping" and artifacting. These are not inherently bad things, if that's a result you're interested in, that's why effects like bitcrushers exist, after all. But if you're not interested in those results, it can be a bit unpleasant.

And due to the nature of analog-digital conversion, there are also going to be differences when it comes to higher-order harmonics in a sound profile; although these will generally be subtle, they can become quite noticeable as well. Again, great if that's the type of sound you want.

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Shledge
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Post by Shledge » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:45 am

At 96khz, you are not going to hear any stepping or artifacts. Taking Nyquist's therom into it, it's a range up to 48khz.
there are also going to be differences when it comes to higher-order harmonics in a sound profile; although these will generally be subtle, they can become quite noticeable as well
If you're talking about some pretty shit and ancient DACs, sure.

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Post by mome rath » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:48 am

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zoogoo wrote: your stupid

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Post by ersatzplanet » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:04 am

A digital audio waveform DOES NOT STAIRSTEP. This is a misconception.

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Post by Carrousel » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:20 am

appliancide wrote:1. It's your birthday. Someone gives you an operational amplifier configured as a comparator. How do you react?

2. You've got a little boy. He shows you his module collection plus the switched-mode power supply. What do you do?

3. You're watching television. Suddenly you realize the Wasp VCF is built around the CD4069UB CMOS inverter.

4. You're reading Craig Anderton's "Electronic Projects for Musicians". You come across a full-page schematic for the Tube Sound Fuzz. You show it to your husband/wife. He/She likes it so much, he/she hangs it on your bedroom wall. The Tube Sound Fuzz uses a CD4049 Hex inverter IC as an amplifier.
Damn near wet myself reading this. Post of the year. Zoogoo, have you ever undertaken a Voight-Kampff assessment? :hihi:

I also love the fact someone a few posts up has signatured the 'your stupid'.....incredible thread, thanks.
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Post by ranix » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:35 am

you guys act like you think all digital sound is made with the Covox Speech Thing and you've never heard of Nyquist-Shannon

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Shledge
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Post by Shledge » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:48 am

Especially since most DACs interpolate their outputs. :hmm:

ranix

Post by ranix » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:52 am

the class D amplifier most of these guys are using to amplify the signals from their analog modules creates more stairstepping than digital modules :hihi:

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Post by Drakhe » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:36 am

as 'faits divers' here's some anecdotal encounters

- I've had people remark "There's chips so it's digital". Most chips are simply preconfigured 'lego' blocks of circuits. You could say that these IC's are macro-circuits, just like you define macro's in excel fir instance.

- on occasions I've had people exclaim, after observing a sine wave on a scope that showed glitches in the wave form, "Look at them glitches, must be a digital wave generator". In both cases the signal was entirely analog, but in one case the glitches were the result of the particular waveshaper used to create the sine, in the second it was in fact a missing cap that generated the glitches...

FWIW: everything is analog except where a signal goes through a ADC, is processed and then goes through a DAC.

My personal view of the matter: as long as you stick voltages in and voltages come out, I don't care what happens behind the panel

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Post by Dr. Sketch-n-Etch » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:50 pm

Anything I've ever designed is analog, cuz I don't do digital. So, if you buy anything I've ever designed, it's analog.
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Post by milkshake » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:41 pm

ranix wrote:the class D amplifier most of these guys are using to amplify the signals from their analog modules creates more stairstepping than digital modules :hihi:
A class D amp doesn't have a staircase signal anywhere in the signal path.
Image


This is what a digital signal looks like (The blue lines that is):
Image
Even in audio converters.

This is NOT what a digital signal looks like:
Image
Not even in audio converters. :eek: Yes really.
Disclaimer: Talking about audible signals. With one exception, an obscure branch of the converter world: The non oversampling converter.
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eskimo99
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Post by eskimo99 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:14 am

Huh, I think I’m gonna start an all digital MOTM cabinet ... any suggestions?

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Shledge
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Post by Shledge » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:34 am

You can get a stepped output if you put sound through an audio rate S&H. Still wouldn't be digital.

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Post by MrsWedge » Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:56 am

PWM = PFM

It creates a 'half 'digital' signal that is quantized in time but not voltage. If you use a high enough carrier frequency you can amplify and listen to sound without filtering the signal at all. You see a square wave on the scope, but hear music.

ranix

Post by ranix » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:13 pm

the air (and the voice coil) are actually a filter in that situation

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milkshake
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Post by milkshake » Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:45 pm

ranix wrote:the air (and the voice coil) are actually a filter in that situation
No, your hearing system just doesn't react to frequencies above a certain frequency.


Things to try:
-Look at a 400Hz square wave on a spectrum analyser. You'll see 400Hz, 1200Hz, 2kHz etc...
Now apply slow PWM. You'll see the even harmonics appear in a pattern analogue to the PWM wave. But you'll also see a huge increase in low frequencies on the FFT meter. This is the spectrum of the PWM wave.
-A class D amp has taken this to higher frequencies where the 400Hz pulse is above the human hearing range and the audio signal is the PWM wave.
-Us wigglers can use this knowledge to create new, quite dirty, sounds with for instance both oscillators in the audio range. Experiment!
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Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
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Post by Dr. Sketch-n-Etch » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:01 pm

I listen to all music through Sony Walkman MP3 players. I can't tell that what I'm hearing is actually ones and zeroes. I know that some people like Neil Young think that there's some huge difference, but I can't hear it, so it ain't there.
A dewdrop can exalt us like the music of the sun.

ranix

Post by ranix » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:33 pm

milkshake wrote:
ranix wrote:the air (and the voice coil) are actually a filter in that situation
No, your hearing system just doesn't react to frequencies above a certain frequency.
No. You're not wrong about the ear not reacting to certain frequencies but what I said was not incorrect. The air is quite useful for attenuation and mixing.

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Post by milkshake » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:53 pm

ranix wrote:
milkshake wrote:
ranix wrote:the air (and the voice coil) are actually a filter in that situation
No, your hearing system just doesn't react to frequencies above a certain frequency.
No. You're not wrong about the ear not reacting to certain frequencies but what I said was not incorrect. The air is quite useful for attenuation and mixing.
:help:
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