What to do with ring modulators?

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Post by Buttons ARE toys » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:13 am

Graham Hinton wrote:
fitzgreyve wrote:- "bowing" - VCO/VCF to one input, joystick or similar to the other, uses RM as as a VCA but where output is proportional to speed of moving the joystick.
This relies on the control input being AC coupled with the right time constant. Credit should be given to EMS and the VCS3 rather than Roland.

Actually it would work with any VCA if the control were AC coupled, it's just that this feature is often available with RMs and rarely found elsewhere.
Are you saying a VCA with an AC coupled CV input will control the amplitude based on the rate of change of the incoming control voltage?

I don't think I've ever seen a VCA with an AC coupled CV input. Do you know of any?

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Post by StrangeAttraction » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:19 am

I wasn't a fan of ring mod sound until I learned to use it subtly and sparingly in my compositions. Like having an occasional one hit/stab with a nice big reverb. Makes for an instant distopian techno vibe.

That PDF is a god-send! Cheers

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Post by Graham Hinton » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:24 pm

Buttons ARE toys wrote:Are you saying a VCA with an AC coupled CV input will control the amplitude based on the rate of change of the incoming control voltage?
That is what I just said.
I don't think I've ever seen a VCA with an AC coupled CV input. Do you know of any?
No, but you could always add a capacitor to an input. The "bowing" is more a function of differentiating a CV than of a ring modulator per se.
The cutoff frequency is better below 20Hz, more like 1Hz, otherwise the effect is too short.
There is no reason why a joystick or a ribbon controller could not have such an output, or a switch between absolute and relative modes. Then you could use it to control other parameters, e.g. a filter frequency...

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Re: What to do with ring modulators?

Post by smithjohn » Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:03 am

The band Wire has a song named Sand In My Joints with a weird guitar solo in the end. I read an interview of their producer who stated that it was created by ring modulating two different guitar solos together.

I tried that same trick and it made my wimpy playing sound quite menacing :lol:

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Re:

Post by tardishead » Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:55 pm

luketeaford wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:40 am
I learned a technique from Rob Hordijk called "poor man's reverb" where a ring mod is used to invert the phase with an envelope. It tricks your brain into thinking you're hearing a reflection and is super cool.
Fascinating
Can you be more specific
Is it SIGNAL into RM and envelope into CARRIER?
Do you mix the result with the dry signal??

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Re: What to do with ring modulators?

Post by ersatzplanet » Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:59 pm

The "bowing" effect on AC coupled RM's was a favorite of mine when I owned EMS stuff. The Doepfer RM is also AC coupled. The fun thing I used it for was as a VCA with the signal in one and a low frequency variable pulse width square in the other. With a standard VCA or with a DC coupled RM, the result would be a gated signal, on when the pulse was high. With a AC coupled RM, the signal passes only when the controlling waveform is changing voltages. This results in a sound on the transition up to the pulse's plateau, and down to the waveforms' floor. A double pulse for each cycle. The PWM will change this into a rhythm of double hits. If the same pulse is used as a trigger for a sequencer, it becomes a fake voltage controlled slap-back sound with the timing dependent on the pulse width.
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Re: Re:

Post by luketeaford » Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:27 pm

tardishead wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:55 pm
luketeaford wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:40 am
I learned a technique from Rob Hordijk called "poor man's reverb" where a ring mod is used to invert the phase with an envelope. It tricks your brain into thinking you're hearing a reflection and is super cool.
Fascinating
Can you be more specific
Is it SIGNAL into RM and envelope into CARRIER?
Do you mix the result with the dry signal??


In the above demo, you can hear it pretty easily. The signal is going through a normal VCA and then into the ring mod. It's set to ring mod mode and it stays there. The carrier is the regular VCA envelope + a slight negative offset voltage. That's all there is to it. You could do it without another VCA first, but I think it's harder to get the response to sound as intended. :tu:

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Re: What to do with ring modulators?

Post by tardishead » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:54 pm

Wow
These 2 patches - slapjack and bowing - are really great. Love this forum. This is stuff you'd be hard pressed to find anywhere else

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Re: What to do with ring modulators?

Post by Graham Hinton » Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:38 pm

ersatzplanet wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:59 pm
With a AC coupled RM, the signal passes only when the controlling waveform is changing voltages. This results in a sound on the transition up to the pulse's plateau, and down to the waveforms' floor. A double pulse for each cycle. The PWM will change this into a rhythm of double hits. If the same pulse is used as a trigger for a sequencer, it becomes a fake voltage controlled slap-back sound with the timing dependent on the pulse width.
You would only get that is the pulse is fed into both inputs and they are both AC coupled. The negative going edge needs to be multiplied by itself to create a positive pulse for the sequencer.

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Re:

Post by ear ear » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:06 pm

Buttons ARE toys wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:13 am
[Do you know of any?
Ian Fritz designed one for the Uglysound Timbre Tantrum panel, unless I'm mistaken. Elby market a range of Ian's designs, including that one: https://synthcube.com/cart/makers/ian-f ... -euro-10hp
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Re: What to do with ring modulators?

Post by ersatzplanet » Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:33 pm

Graham Hinton wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:38 pm
ersatzplanet wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:59 pm
With a AC coupled RM, the signal passes only when the controlling waveform is changing voltages. This results in a sound on the transition up to the pulse's plateau, and down to the waveforms' floor. A double pulse for each cycle. The PWM will change this into a rhythm of double hits. If the same pulse is used as a trigger for a sequencer, it becomes a fake voltage controlled slap-back sound with the timing dependent on the pulse width.
You would only get that is the pulse is fed into both inputs and they are both AC coupled. The negative going edge needs to be multiplied by itself to create a positive pulse for the sequencer.
I must be remembering things differently because I thought I used to do this all the time with the Synthi's RM and the Doepfer one. The output would be sharp short sounds at the transitions of the pulse waveform. I no longer have either of those RMs any more so can't try it out again. Maybe my old brain is playing tricks on me. Maybe the signal being a bipolar waveform was part of it. I don't remember if the LFO on the Synthi is bi-polar too, been quite some time since I owned them.
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Re: What to do with ring modulators?

Post by Graham Hinton » Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:43 am

ersatzplanet wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:33 pm
Graham Hinton wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:38 pm
You would only get that is the pulse is fed into both inputs and they are both AC coupled. The negative going edge needs to be multiplied by itself to create a positive pulse for the sequencer.
I must be remembering things differently because I thought I used to do this all the time with the Synthi's RM and the Doepfer one.
You would be able to do it on those because they both have fixed AC coupled inputs. You wouldn't be able to do it on any RM that has one or both DC coupled inputs without further trickery.

As I said earlier, AC coupling is not part of ring modulation par se, but in your example it relies on the RM too for four quadrant multiplication to make the product of two negative waveforms a positive one.

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Re:

Post by scuto » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:15 pm

luketeaford wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:40 am
I learned a technique from Rob Hordijk called "poor man's reverb" where a ring mod is used to invert the phase with an envelope. It tricks your brain into thinking you're hearing a reflection and is super cool.

...

I love ring mod sounds in general.
Would you go into more detail? I'm huge into ring mod sounds, and would love to try this! [Edit: Didn't read the whole thread before posting! Thanks for sharing that.]

As others have said, careful tuning of the signals going into the ring mod can get more tonal results. Some things to try with the signals before the ring mod are offsetting them, and/or rectifying them. Also, mixing the ring mod signal with another one of one of the oscs' waveforms--but inverted--can be fun, too. One of my favorite things about modular is the ability to not be precious about the waveforms I'm sending around the system.

NB: I personally prefer the oddities of a traditional ring mod to those of a balanced multiplier, especially when dialing in specific frequency ratios between the two incoming signals.

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Re: What to do with ring modulators?

Post by ersatzplanet » Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:58 pm

Graham Hinton wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:43 am
ersatzplanet wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:33 pm
Graham Hinton wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:38 pm
You would only get that is the pulse is fed into both inputs and they are both AC coupled. The negative going edge needs to be multiplied by itself to create a positive pulse for the sequencer.
I must be remembering things differently because I thought I used to do this all the time with the Synthi's RM and the Doepfer one.
You would be able to do it on those because they both have fixed AC coupled inputs. You wouldn't be able to do it on any RM that has one or both DC coupled inputs without further trickery.

As I said earlier, AC coupling is not part of ring modulation par se, but in your example it relies on the RM too for four quadrant multiplication to make the product of two negative waveforms a positive one.
Sorry, I thought you thought I was saying something different in what I posted. I was only talking about AC coupled RM's.
-James

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Re: What to do with ring modulators?

Post by jkjelec » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:28 pm

Just me and EPTC referred to the
GregAE document "Lord of the Ring Mod"
. I don't find anything when doing a Google search. Does anyone have a copy they can forward to the thread? Thanks!

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Re: What to do with ring modulators?

Post by mister_wavey » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:04 am

it's the first hit for me when I google 'lord of the ringmod'. Not sure if it's considered copyrighted, so I won't link directly.

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Re: What to do with ring modulators?

Post by jkjelec » Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:11 am

mister_wavey wrote:
it's the first hit for me when I google 'lord of the ringmod'. Not sure if it's considered copyrighted, so I won't link directly.
Weird, even after I changed "ring mod" to "ringmod", the results are only an article about organist Jon Lord's use of ring mods, a song with that title, and a bunch of mods for the Lord of the Rings video game. :despair:

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Re: What to do with ring modulators?

Post by Just me » Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:19 am

Redacted bad info.
Last edited by Just me on Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What to do with ring modulators?

Post by Just me » Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:25 am

It was a PDF on the knobtweak yahoo user group. I don't know if GregAE copyrighted it. It is where he distributed it from. With yahoo groups going away, it needs to be put somewhere else.
It is out there on google. Use gregAE and lotrm as keywords.
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Re: What to do with ring modulators?

Post by ear ear » Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:34 pm

Full text is in this thread: viewtopic.php?t=41735
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Re: What to do with ring modulators?

Post by Pelsea » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:19 pm

I like to begin sets by holding (with great ceremony and drama) a tiny bell up to a microphone. With the right ring mod settings, it will make a sound like Big Ben, alerting the audience that they are about to hear something really different.
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Re: What to do with ring modulators?

Post by mister_wavey » Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:24 am

jkjelec wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:11 am
mister_wavey wrote:
it's the first hit for me when I google 'lord of the ringmod'. Not sure if it's considered copyrighted, so I won't link directly.
Weird, even after I changed "ring mod" to "ringmod", the results are only an article about organist Jon Lord's use of ring mods, a song with that title, and a bunch of mods for the Lord of the Rings video game. :despair:
ah, I forgot that google often rearranges results based on one's own history. here's a direct link which works at the time of writing:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachm ... d-2009.pdf

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Re: What to do with ring modulators?

Post by dooj88 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:48 am

i was reading about the 2500 and saw the ringmod module was a little different than how others circuits are configured. anyone have any insight on this?

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Re: What to do with ring modulators?

Post by Rex Coil 7 » Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:14 pm

Best ring modulator ever ....... does single sideband, pitch shifting, holds nine presets, stereo output if desired, foot controller input ... plus more.

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Re:

Post by MindMachine » Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:01 am

Buttons ARE toys wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:54 am
I like using them for switching between positive and negative feedback on a delay, especially with Karplus-Strong patches. It changes the tone but also alters the pitch in a pleasing way so it's great for adding some variation to a melody.
I would love to see a diagram of that. Hard to wrap my melon around it.
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