How to stop your sequencers skipping to second step...

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helix
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How to stop your sequencers skipping to second step...

Post by helix » Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:17 am

I have seen ladik (eurorack) has just brought out a module designed to solve this issue. When pressing play from my DAW, having a reset and a clock always sends the sequencer to step two instantly.
Some sequencers have a reset to last step, which solves this problem, but creates a new problem in that whenever you send a reset signal from the modular, for instance you want a 5 step pattern, it resets to the last step,instead of the first. So it's only handy to have reset to last if you're ONLY resetting on play.

Instead of buying the ladik module (which seems very handy indee), i've just had an idea hat i could send an gate signal on the first clock pulse from the DAW, and invert it, send it through a VCA onwards to the sequencers. (the clock is the input and output of the vca, the inverted gate is the modulator to essentially CLOSE the vca when the pulse comes in) This would hopefully cancel out that first clock pulse and only allow the reset though, thus hopefully not causing to skip.

Has anyone tried this, or have any other methods to acheive the same? I'm using eurorack but the same problem must exis in other formats too i'm sure!

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cptnal
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Re: How to stop your sequencers skipping to second step...

Post by cptnal » Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:14 am

Would combining the triggers in an XOR do it?

helix
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Re: How to stop your sequencers skipping to second step...

Post by helix » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:00 am

Oh actually maybe worth a go! I do have an a-166 next to my clock divider so will try that laer

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Re: How to stop your sequencers skipping to second step...

Post by Graham Hinton » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:10 pm

helix wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:17 am
Has anyone tried this, or have any other methods to acheive the same? I'm using eurorack but the same problem must exis in other formats too i'm sure!
You've opened a can of worms. On Gearbox I made a Reset output that starts before and has double the width of the Clocks for this reason, but it presumes that the sequencer reset is level driven and overrides clocks for its duration. If the reset is edge triggered it's not going to work. There are so many sequencers of varying quality that there can be no universal solution unless a standard definition of Reset is adopted by everyone.
cpntal wrote:Would combining the triggers in an XOR do it?
No. You will get spikes due to propagation delays.

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Re: How to stop your sequencers skipping to second step...

Post by Pelsea » Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:11 pm

How about delaying the reset pulse slightly so it occurs after the extra clock?
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helix
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Re: How to stop your sequencers skipping to second step...

Post by helix » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:45 am

Pelsea wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:11 pm
How about delaying the reset pulse slightly so it occurs after the extra clock?
I dont get why that won't still cause it to reset?

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Re: How to stop your sequencers skipping to second step...

Post by GuyaGuy » Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:42 am

Maybe you've looked into this already but...Is the sequencer not starting on 1 because it doesn't have a clock yet? Ableton (like other DAWs presumably) provide a countdown (BEEP beep beep beep for 4/4). This not only gives you a countdown but also provides the clock to external devices so that they are synced.

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Re: How to stop your sequencers skipping to second step...

Post by helix » Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:44 am

Hmm not sure entirely what you mean, it gets a double trigger from the clock AND the reset, causing it to double trigger and skip.

I also don't use MIDI clock that often from my DAW as it just doesn't seem stable for some reason. I send my clock as an audio trigger pulse (specially made by tiptop i think) straight out my interface to the doepfer clock/sequencers etc.

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Re: How to stop your sequencers skipping to second step...

Post by Arneb » Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:13 am

Come to think about it, what are you using for DAW interfacing? MIDI clock messages and start messages are distinct, 0xf8 and 0xfa respectively in the MIDI protocol, and I'd expect a MIDI interface to not just merge both into one CV channel - so maybe a configuration issue?

edit: nevermind

edit2:
helix wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:44 am
Hmm not sure entirely what you mean, it gets a double trigger from the clock AND the reset, causing it to double trigger and skip.

I also don't use MIDI clock that often from my DAW as it just doesn't seem stable for some reason. I send my clock as an audio trigger pulse (specially made by tiptop i think) straight out my interface to the doepfer clock/sequencers etc.
Alright... and the reset signal, what do you use for getting that one into your rack?

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Re: How to stop your sequencers skipping to second step...

Post by helix » Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:38 am

That IS coming from midi info. Maybe thats the problem. That comes from my cv.ocd when i press play. I suppose i could have a dedicated gate ouput from interface that only puts out one pulse, and i just lay that down every time i want to press play.... not really viable though, would be a nightmare

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Re: How to stop your sequencers skipping to second step...

Post by helix » Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:40 am

I'd imagine there is a latency between the midi and the audio, depending on soundcard settings and plugin delay etc etc. So i'm feeling like only real fix is to "delete" the first clock pulse. Maybe that ladik module would just make it much easier... dont really want to use up rack space for it if i can get around it with the first method. Didn't manage to try it out last night

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Re: How to stop your sequencers skipping to second step...

Post by helix » Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:42 pm

I can confirm my original idea works a bloodyt treat. Although it means i do have to place in a "pattern" in my DAW containing the trigger to "cancel" out the clock for one pulse.


So it goes like this

DAW > Audio interface audio output is creating a clock pulse for sequencer via an audio "blip"
Clock pulse runs through a VCA with an initial gain setting set to max (in this case a Ladik 011 LOG VCA, but any will work that has an intial amount/offset

The single pulse comes out of the DAW too, as another audio blip
Said blip is put through an inverter, then going into the CV INPUT of the ladik VCA.

This means that when the inverted blip comes through, it essentially ducks/sidechains if you will, the clock pulse, for the duration of the blip. Which can be set according to clock rate so it isn't too long to delay the sequencer, or stop the next clock from coming through

Reset signal is coming from my cv.ocd every time i press play, and as the clock signal is no longer present here, i get no double trigger


God i love modular shennannigans

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Re: How to stop your sequencers skipping to second step...

Post by helix » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:00 pm

Hmm even easier i can just create one of my clock "patterns" in the daw with one less tick at the start! I tried that before and it didn't work.... now it does...

Either way are a decent work around when using audio blips as a clock source rather than midi. And if using midi.... the inverted blip would work

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Re: How to stop your sequencers skipping to second step...

Post by ratchet » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:29 pm

I have this problem when starting / restarting my sequencer(s). I fix it by using a clock divider to send a reset every 8 or 16 or 32 or 64 steps (depending on track requirements). After it’s played through once all is aligned.

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Re: How to stop your sequencers skipping to second step...

Post by helix » Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:13 pm

So you need to play through a whole sequence before it gets into sync?

You sending from daw? Midi or audio? Try my fix :mrgreen: I’d love to know if it works for others

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Re: How to stop your sequencers skipping to second step...

Post by AndreasD » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:35 pm

Maybe I misunderstand the issue, but I always reset on Stop!
Whenever I press stop, one channel of Pams New Workout (single final pulse) sends a reset to Brains, clock dividers, Trigger man, etc.
It's one of my fix connections.

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Re: How to stop your sequencers skipping to second step...

Post by helix » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:46 pm

Do you use cv.ocd too? Maybe ill try reset on stop instead. I remember tryin that when i first got it and it didn't work very well

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Re: How to stop your sequencers skipping to second step...

Post by helix » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:35 pm

AndreasD wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:35 pm
Maybe I misunderstand the issue, but I always reset on Stop!
Whenever I press stop, one channel of Pams New Workout (single final pulse) sends a reset to Brains, clock dividers, Trigger man, etc.
It's one of my fix connections.
You might have just made my life good again :lol:

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Re: How to stop your sequencers skipping to second step...

Post by helix » Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:05 pm

No it was working fine now it's skipping again even when reset is on stop. It skips on play like it did before. It worked for about 30 mins now doesn't want to know

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Re: How to stop your sequencers skipping to second step...

Post by helix » Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:23 pm

I think just deleting the first clock as an audio is actually the only way to use a computer with a modular system and have it sync up and still be able to send resets without them going to the last step.

CV,ocd now pointless i think as a clock output, but good for CV and triggers

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Re: How to stop your sequencers skipping to second step...

Post by helix » Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:34 am

Hmm mso yes i am now running all my clock and reset signals out as audio blips which has stopped any of the double triggering caused by MIDI clock. Maybe my DAW just isn't great for midi (FL Studio) i've had clock stability problems before with my Virus TI and JP8080 years back, using a MOTU midi express 128, on it's own USB port with nothing on the second slot.

Anyway, it seems the best way of dealing with syncing with a DAW and have it in time with your actual music, is to have it triggered by the music, not by MIDI, which might do something weird, whereas if it's the sequencer itself triggering, it's always going to be in time. nice. Lets see if it stays this way or just goes balls up again after half an hour

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