6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Anything modular synth related that is not format specific.

Moderators: lisa, luketeaford, Kent, Joe.

KSS
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 880
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:28 am

6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by KSS » Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:59 am

Best synth quote I've seen in awhile.

I had a transposition pedal hooked up for the bass synth that I could literally hit my low E string and drop it almost three octaves. We were getting down in the area of 6Hz at probably about 130dB. The first time we actually tested it we all threw up and cracked a wall in the warehouse. It was fantastic. It has been in moth balls since that tour. It is a true hi-fidelity system originally designed for theaters to be able to adequately represent earthquakes and things like that." - Leland Sklar

For the rest of the story: https://www.matrixsynth.com/2020/02/197 ... -bass.html

Moog 904, repaneled Oberheim SEM
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
SynthBaron
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 3321
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:43 am

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by SynthBaron » Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:16 am

Whoa.

User avatar
Blairio
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1692
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:50 pm
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by Blairio » Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:29 am

There has been a lot of work done in the area of Psychoacoustics on the effect of subsonic sound on the human body and mind.

Quite often people report a sense of unease, growing into panic when exposed to sound around 17hz and lower. At those frequencies you can experience visual aberrations as you eyeballs vibrate, and people have even reported having epiphanies and religious experiences.

I was at a demonstration last year held by a psychical research team where they ran a perfect sine wave through powerful amp and a 'very' large bass bin. As the tone generator moved from 35hz downwards, people in the room experienced what I describe above, but even better (from a scientific point of view!) people in the same building, unaware of what was going on, experienced the same things.

The purpose of the demonstration was to highlight that certain buildings and certain built environments inadvertently generate and trap very low frequencies. Some of those same locations have been the subject of many 'supernatural' phenomena over the years.

hippo1
Common Wiggler
Posts: 173
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:22 pm

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by hippo1 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:17 am

Oh dear.

I can't wait for the next DIY thread like "Look mum no computer" where we go direct to Brown Note competitions in clubs. I'd like to think that the engineers responsible for effective and proper transposition code WEREN'T looking for the Monty Python/Kate Bush aspect of sound infliction...!

jorg
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 448
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:38 am
Location: East Coast USA

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by jorg » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:20 am

Hitler used this technique before his MAGA rallies to rile up the crowd. As soon as he walked on stage, they'd turn it off and everybody felt relieved and happy.

Arneb
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 367
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:50 pm

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by Arneb » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:53 am

jorg wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:20 am
Hitler used this technique before his MAGA rallies to rile up the crowd. As soon as he walked on stage, they'd turn it off and everybody felt relieved and happy.
I'm pretty sure that this is an urban legend, and it seems doubtful that '30s PA systems had enough power in the infrasonic range to do this. Google hits for Hitler rally infrasound are mostly climate change deniers trying to tar wind turbines by association (and also alleging a Nazi conspiracy to promote the 440Hz concert pitch).

User avatar
Fog Door
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:04 pm
Location: Down, down, down the dark ladder

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by Fog Door » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:26 am

The purpose of the demonstration was to highlight that certain buildings and certain built environments inadvertently generate and trap very low frequencies. Some of those same locations have been the subject of many 'supernatural' phenomena over the years.
Fascinating post Blairo, I've read about the physical affects of low frequency sound over the years but I've never read about them being potentially linked to unexplained 'supernatural' phenomena. If you have any more info or can recommend info sources I would love to read more, even if any evidence is ultimately anecdotal or even spurious! :)

jorg
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 448
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:38 am
Location: East Coast USA

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by jorg » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:31 am

Arneb wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:53 am
I'm pretty sure that [the Hitler anecdote] is an urban legend, and it seems doubtful that '30s PA systems had enough power in the infrasonic range to do this. Google hits for Hitler rally infrasound are mostly climate change deniers trying to tar wind turbines by association (and also alleging a Nazi conspiracy to promote the 440Hz concert pitch).
Hmm, maybe I should have studied more before posting something I saw on TeeVee. I do know I feel queasy when I see a dictator's face and hear his voice, and better when I change the channel. But I don't have a subwoofer, so that's not an infrasound issue...

User avatar
ersatzplanet
Synthwerks Design
Posts: 6281
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:18 pm
Location: Seattle WA

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by ersatzplanet » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:49 am

When I lived in Japan as a teenager, the police there were experimenting with infra-sound for riot control. Demonstrations were common (you got permits for them) so they had a lot of chances to test it out. The basic stuff of sympathetic vibration of peoples stomachs and bowels to make them vomit or shit their pants. Don't know how effective it was. They had these nice sound isolated trucks with big horns on them. Of course the police not in the trucks had to leave the scene since it wasn't not very picky about who it affected.

That is one thing that always bugs me about "sonic weapons" in movies to TV shows - the heroes always avoid being affected by plugging their ears. Something that has nothing to do with how this works at all. The sound affects the organs/body directly, plugging the ears is useless.
-James

James Husted - Synthwerks, LLC - www.synthwerks.com - info@synthwerks.com - james@synthwerks.com
Synthwerks is a proud member of the Mostly Modular Trade Association (http://www.mostlymodular.com).
Always looking to trade for Doepfer P6 cases

User avatar
Scolbio
Common Wiggler
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:38 am
Location: From anywhere, but tomorrow will be in Greece

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by Scolbio » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:50 am

I can chime in here
Here's a quick overview with a reference to the original article from the 1990s:
http://skepdic.com/infrasound.html

If you really wanna go out there google bigfoot infrasound.

Blairo, what is the research group you're referring to?


Fog Door wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:26 am
The purpose of the demonstration was to highlight that certain buildings and certain built environments inadvertently generate and trap very low frequencies. Some of those same locations have been the subject of many 'supernatural' phenomena over the years.
Fascinating post Blairo, I've read about the physical affects of low frequency sound over the years but I've never read about them being potentially linked to unexplained 'supernatural' phenomena. If you have any more info or can recommend info sources I would love to read more, even if any evidence is ultimately anecdotal or even spurious! :)

User avatar
Blairio
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1692
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:50 pm
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by Blairio » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:05 pm

The demonstration I attended formed part of an evening of lectures held by the Scottish Society For Psychical Research in February 2019, Glasgow, Scotland.

It examined the contention by a number of sceptics such as Richard Wiseman that standing waves of subsonic frequencies can account for many ‘ghostly experiences’, inducing both feelings of anxiety and also hallucinations. Soundwaves of 17 Hz have been proved to induce ‘nervous feelings of revulsion or fear’ and, according to NASA, the resonant frequency of the eyeball is 19 to 21 Hz.

It might seem counterintuitive, but a lot of energy in psychic research is spent in ruling out natural explanations for reported psychic experiences, rather than chasing down ectoplasm....

The lowest (longest) footages of organ pipe in places of worship can get down to below 30hz, and, given bass traps inherent in most building designs, the energy can concentrate in specific areas. One proposition is that religious epiphanies experienced in these buildings may be attributed to subsonics. This isn't to diminish the lived experience, but in some cases, may account for it.

Other examples include the positioning of tall buildings so close to each other that the wind passing between them generates subsonic waves, rather like blowing over the top of an empty bottle to induce a low whistle tone. This is one explanation offered for 'sick building' syndrome, where occupants of certain buildings are burdened with a statistically abnormal level of physical and mental illness - which diminishes when they relocate.

User avatar
dubonaire
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 6083
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:45 pm

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by dubonaire » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:25 pm

Interesting stuff Blario!

User avatar
Blairio
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1692
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:50 pm
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by Blairio » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:49 pm

I agree, it is a fascinating area. I approached it from a Psychological point of view, as I have an interest in Psychoacoustics. Equally, you could look at subsonics/infrasound and ultrasonics from the perspective of weaponising both. Check out this link:

https://littlefield.co/the-psychoacoust ... 05e1fd8673

Jazz musician Archie Shepp was famously quoted as saying "let my notes be bullets", as in - make every note count. It seems soundwaves can be weaponised in a very unmusical way.

User avatar
Moerder
Common Wiggler
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:27 am
Location: Emerald Isle

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by Moerder » Mon Feb 10, 2020 3:54 pm

thanks for the posts, Blairio! all this actually reminded me of a particular evening when I was still living in Scotland (glorious times) and a few mates were over. a couple of us were jamming on various instruments and the others nodding along. I was playing a Yamaha electric organ that night and went a bit nuts on the foot pedal bass notes, and used the volume pedal to do volume swells-ish stuff. after some minutes one of the listeners actually asked me if I could stop using the bass pedals because he felt a little sick from the 'wobble', the others didn't mind at all. can't quite compare with a full-blown church organ of course but it did produce quite booming bass with the right settings, so I guess some people might also be more susceptible to lower frequencies in general, whether that's a positive or negative attribute..

User avatar
Severed head
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 397
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:24 am

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by Severed head » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:24 pm

I was given free victor Wooten tickets once in my early twenties and being the type of person that always has to be in the front row. and that fact that my friends were into that kinda(boring IMO) music and wanting to see what he was actually playing, I subsequently wound up stage right which happen to be directly in fornt of VW's and his huge AF amps and stage monitor. it caused me to pass out. I was completely sober. so it wasn't dope induced as my friends thought I was OD-ing (from weed I guess as thats the one substance I was ever know to use on occasional the time)
it started by getting a bit disoriented, then my heart started to feel strange and I couldnt hold my self up I had literally put all my weight against the stage and eventually after giving out, wound up having to be carried off. once they got me to the balcony I was basically spaced the fuck out for about thirty more minutes and couldnt even hold my own head up or breath correctly, this also I should mention was after they stopped smoking in venues. once the intermission hit (lasting about 25-30 minutes) I started to regain my mental faculties and once I was conscious and aware enough to move on my own. I got the fuck out of there...

I dont have any scientific evidence to back it up but im convinced the bass was so intense and low that it some how was fucking with the rhythm of my heart beat. thus causing the incident.
afterwards when it talked with Vic at the hotel he said he was using a "sub octave device" (his words) that added to the felt bass but not the heard bass. could've been total BS but ill tell you what I was messed up.
WTB: modules, MA35 filter.
:help:

User avatar
hsosdrum
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 630
Joined: Thu May 25, 2017 11:02 pm
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by hsosdrum » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:15 pm

I agree, very interesting stuff. BUT... can we please use the correct term — infrasonic — when discussing pressure waves that occur at frequencies lower than can be heard by humans? The word subsonic means "slower than the speed of sound (Mach 1)".

Infrasonic (lower than audible) > Ultrasonic (higher than audible)
Subsonic (slower than the speed of sound) > Supersonic (faster than the speed of sound)

Even audio equipment manufacturers sometimes get this wrong — witness the nonsense term "Subsonic Filter", which is often incorrectly used instead of the correct term "Infrasonic Filter".

KSS
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 880
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:28 am

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by KSS » Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:55 pm

Am also deeply interested in psychoacoustics, and related subjects. Moreso than 'music' actually. Which is not to diminish my appreciation of music.

Public television recently showed a group of researchers at Stonehenge, investigating its potential for subsonic-sorry, not sorry, infrasonic effects as part and parcel of its reason for being. update: Was an episode of "MysteryQuest" and recently appeared again on Quest network.

As for the sorry, not sorry, there are many terms used and mis-used and still well understood as different within different context.
If we're discussing aircraft, subsonic has one meaning. If the topic is audio, it's understood we're not talking about Mach numbers. For me the argument is a lot like moog vs mohg. Bob didn't care<-through first hand experience- and yet others seem to make it a point to 'correct'.

Nothing against bringing "infrasonic" up and sharing the correct use. Appreciate it even! Will still call them subwoofers.

Back to the initial post. For me a great bit of the humor is the picture of these guys, throwing up, seeing the cracked wall, and the reaction. "Fantastic!"
With all the negative reactions to low freq waves now shared in the thread, this is even more ironic. It having happened in late 70's only adds to the mental picture. Spinal Tap-ish.
Last edited by KSS on Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KSS
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 880
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:28 am

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by KSS » Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:06 pm

A second avenue of interest of mine in this unit is how it answers the often asked question of how much is needed, and relates to the current thread Doing more with less.

Here is an extremely expressive controller-guitar->360slavedriver, paired with a SEM and moog ladder, through massive amplification. Few elements, but well-chosen and grouped.

powertran
Common Wiggler
Posts: 112
Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 3:03 am
Location: UK

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by powertran » Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:38 pm

I remember many years ago reading an article in the UK Private Eye magazine. It was a leak about a commission to the Phillips Electronics Corporation from a certain pro-western friendly middle eastern country.
It was for a room sized sound proof chamber with inbuilt 5hz speakers. The project engineers nicknamed it ' the house of fun'.

User avatar
gcheliotis
Common Wiggler
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:05 am
Location: here and there

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by gcheliotis » Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:23 pm

Man someone should make a documentary about this if they haven't already. So many cool angles, from sound and psychoacoustics to paranormal and conspiracy theories.

User avatar
3hands
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 559
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:36 pm
Location: Ottawa Ontario

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by 3hands » Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:36 pm

powertran wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:38 pm
I remember many years ago reading an article in the UK Private Eye magazine. It was a leak about a commission to the Phillips Electronics Corporation from a certain pro-western friendly middle eastern country.
It was for a room sized sound proof chamber with inbuilt 5hz speakers. The project engineers nicknamed it ' the house of fun'.

Bohker tohv!! (Sorry I couldn’t help it)

That sounds insanely ridiculous!!! And awful for anyone being stuck up in a place like that for longer than 2 mins.
Gum is fun, but not on a cat.

My minds an art gallery.

User avatar
hsosdrum
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 630
Joined: Thu May 25, 2017 11:02 pm
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by hsosdrum » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:14 pm

KSS wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:55 pm
... Will still call them subwoofers...
True, but the word "subwoofer" was coined specifically to mean a loudspeaker that operates in the frequency range lower than typical woofers. The word "subsonic" existed (and had an entirely different meaning) before it began to be mis-used in place of the existing correct term. I have no doubt that the misuse of "subsonic" is related to the use of the word "subwoofer", but that doesn't make it correct. (However, repeated use does eventually make such changes in word meanings a part of the lexicon. I'm aware that I'm fighting a losing battle here, but it's been a pet peeve of mine for close to 40 years... :bang: )

User avatar
Blairio
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1692
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:50 pm
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by Blairio » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:32 pm

gcheliotis wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:23 pm
Man someone should make a documentary about this if they haven't already. So many cool angles, from sound and psychoacoustics to paranormal and conspiracy theories.
The Men Who Stared At Goats.

User avatar
gcheliotis
Common Wiggler
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:05 am
Location: here and there

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by gcheliotis » Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:25 am

Blairio wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:32 pm
gcheliotis wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:23 pm
Man someone should make a documentary about this if they haven't already. So many cool angles, from sound and psychoacoustics to paranormal and conspiracy theories.
The Men Who Stared At Goats.
Not quite what I was expecting, but I'll check it out... thanks

KL1982
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:26 am
Location: UK

Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by KL1982 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:41 pm

Blairio wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:05 pm
The demonstration I attended formed part of an evening of lectures held by the Scottish Society For Psychical Research in February 2019, Glasgow, Scotland.
Interesting to see someone else from Scotland posting on the topic/having an interest in the field.

This is an area I've worked in, so perhaps can contribute.

Yes, there are certain frequencies that can be harnessed to produce physiological/psychological effects. There are restrictions on human testing due to potential for hollow organ damage. And, as has already been said, certain frequencies have effects on specific bodyparts i.e optic nerves etc.

Infrasonic speakers aren't necessary in order to test certain functions (they are necessary for some, of course); a basic example for inducing, say, nausea, is to run a sine tone (say, 45Hz) into a bass speaker, with another sine tone (say, 50Hz) into a second speaker. Have the speakers facing each other, stand between them, and what you'll feel is the 5Hz offset/beating. For protection, wear ear defenders (the source sine tones can cause hearing problems). After c.25 minutes, the onset of nausea will begin. PS it takes a number of hours for the feeling to dissipate; anyone considering this should think carefully - and know that it is classed as torture under UN convention.


Darpa have worked in this field. As have the Mitre corporation. And a number of other private bodies.
Many companies also have sector-specific products i.e Bruel & Kjaer 4193 mic etc (0.07Hz-20Khz).


Infrasound/sensory deprivation is an interesting field. Old book now, but worth having a look at Jack Vernon's Inside The Black Room as a starter for ten RE sensory deprivation. Again though, the techniques are classed as torture under UN convention. Sensory deprivation also has bad press due to the research at McGill Labs in the 50's/60's.

For more recent interest, I'd recommend the curious look at Juan Roederer's research RE psychophysics of sound. He has a great introductory book on the subject.

Also worth a look (again, tangential field) are works by Robert Lifton (Menticide etc), Joost Meerloo (The Rape of The Mind), and research into cults by Margaret Singer (you'll find a good video on YT 'What is a Cult and How Does it Work?').


At a certain level, all disciplines tie together i.e in a sensorially-deprived environment, a subject's fundamental beliefs can be altered. Assume someone is Christian, and the goal is to convert them to Islam: place them in a deprived environment/room with two buttons - one button when pushed broadcasts a single line from the Bible (and always this line), the second button broadcasts a line from the Quran - but each time the second button is pushed, the message is different. Purely as a means of avoiding boredom, the subject will push the second button - and, given a number of weeks, will comply with/believe in the new message.

At the fundamental level, this is the principle of 'brainwashing'. Historically the problem has always been the residual nature i.e after only a few days of release, subjects often return to their original mode of thought.

This is partly the function of our current media. Which, to some, may read as conspiracy.
Last edited by KL1982 on Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply

Return to “Modular Synth General Discussion”