6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

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Blairio
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Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by Blairio » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:01 pm

There is a lot to work through in that last post - thanks to KL1982 for their detail.

My interest in this thread is quite constrained - whether (and to what extent) Infrasound can account for perceived paranormal experience. The demonstration I attended was pretty persuasive. It assumed fundamental frequencies of below 17 Hz or so. The principle that the offset (difference) between two already low frequencies can result in a lower frequency still, is intriguing indeed.

I guess in cases of naturally or man made occurrences of infrasound, whether the person experiencing them attributes the symptoms to supernatural causes or not, is down to their belief system.

As Simon and Garfunkel so elegantly put it in "The Boxer" 1970 - A man sees what he wants to see, and he disregards the rest.

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Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by KL1982 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:08 pm

Blairio wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:01 pm
There is a lot to work through in that last post - thanks to KL1982 for their detail.
No problem.

Perhaps also look to Genasys. And USAF/Los Alamos.


And Israel.


LRAD/beamed sound are relatively old fields now, but may still be interesting, if unfamiliar with the field.


Here is a paper worth having a look through on the broader topic - http://researchonline.ljmu.ac.uk/id/epr ... 543845.pdf
It doesn't go into much depth (nor could it, as much of the research is private), but it is certainly worth a read on a quiet evening.


Blairio wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:01 pm
I guess in cases of naturally or man made occurrences of infrasound, whether the person experiencing them attributes the symptoms to supernatural causes or not, is down to their belief system.
Yes.

What may also interest you (tangentially) is current research underway RE psychedelics. Johns Hopkins are/have been undertaking a lot of work in this field, spearheaded by Roland Griffiths (many of his papers are online).


Attribution is a large area connected to psychological research into source-monitoring errors/faulty-source monitoring (which can be generated via sensory deprivation. And infrasound).

The danger of deprivation (as opposed to stimulation) is that deprivation generally produces negative psychological results (negative in the medical sense i.e with respect developmental neuropsychology etc).

The danger of stimulation is, generally, long + short-term physical side-effects. And organ failure.


One interesting aspect of infrasound is the influence it can have on mind/perception (phenomenologically and otherwise) without requiring a direct breach of the blood-brain barrier (i.e psychedelics).





Blairio wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:01 pm
As Simon and Garfunkel so elegantly put it in "The Boxer" 1970 - A man sees what he wants to see, and he disregards the rest.
And react often violently & defensively i.e the reaction of a child when told Santa isn't real.

Adults are generally no different. Many will go to war to defend a false belief before admitting or considering they may be wrong/their worldview is the product of long-term conditioning.



PS I have the feeling the lads in the original article are perhaps spinning a yarn based on some material they found online. If they said 7.3Hz, my ears would have pricked up a little.


All best
Kris
Last edited by KL1982 on Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by KSS » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:52 pm

from A Puzzlement (from Rodgers and Hammerstein's The King and I)

And it puzzle me to learn
That tho' a man may be in doubt of what he know
Very quickly he will fight
He'll fight to prove that what he does not know is so!

(spoken)
But... is a puzzlement!
Last edited by KSS on Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by Fog Door » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:24 pm

Very interesting posts KL1982, although ironically, you leave me yearning for a world where Santa Claus is real ;)

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Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by cretaceousear » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:51 pm

So that apparent sickness at the US embassy in Cuba a few years ago?
I suppose even if it was sonic attack nobody in authority wants to discuss it.
Last edited by cretaceousear on Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by KSS » Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:50 pm

I wonder if there are any effects from working, fighting -from and under- and in general being around helicopter operations?

Helicopter sounds being often synthesized and part of classic presets too.

And while much of the thread is focusing on the personal physical and psychic aspects, there's also the cracked wall aspect, which hasn't gotten much comment so far?

One biblical story says marching around walls of a city -with assumed low frequency sounds of marching, and possible chanting- caused the city's walls to fall.

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Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by KL1982 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:09 pm

KSS wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:50 pm
I wonder if there are any effects from working, fighting -from and under- and in general being around helicopter operations?
Yes, there are.

Closer to home/worth looking into is tinnitus and its relation to infrasound from turbines/windfarms. Various bodies with politically-aligned funding sources cite lack of corollary evidence, yet a basic cross-analysis with medical data from nearby towns etc often indicates a heightened level of tinnitus.


KSS wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:50 pm
And while much of the thread is focusing on the personal physical and psychic aspects, there's also the cracked wall aspect, which hasn't gotten much comment so far?
My mentioning of Los Alamos was an indirect reference.

Part of the subject area is known as Acoustic Resonance Spectroscopy.

See here RE a public paper on the topic from Los Alamos - https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/366462


Also perhaps look into Young's Modulus.

There's also the famous Tacoma Narrows Bridge video (worth a look).

Also see here - http://education.lenardaudio.com/en/04_acoustics_3.html

And if you have time - https://www.iitk.ac.in/nicee/wcee/artic ... 7-0066.PDF


Absorption coefficients etc can play an important role in sound design i.e imitating the echoes of gunfire against, say, glass windows etc. Part of the forensic analysis of the gunfire from the recent Vegas shooting focused on absorption coefficients/relative humidity/doppler shift etc. And basic ROF calculations (one of the guns heard certainly was a bump-modified AR-15).

You probably know the old story RE the BBC broadcasting a recording of Big Ben during WW2 as humidity/temperature etc could be calculated from the acoustical properties of the bell waves, were the broadcast to be live.

Perhaps slightly off-topic, but have a look at Diamond Cut (DC forensics 10). Relatively sector-specific, and may lead you down a rabbithole. Great software, though.



KSS wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 6:50 pm
One biblical story says marching around walls of a city -with assumed low frequency sounds of marching, and possible chanting- caused the city's walls to fall.
Not impossible, given the correct amplitude/frequency.

Or the story could be historical evidence of ancient Israeli nationalist propaganda.




Side-note: if you want to write dance tunes that will have your audience on the dance floor, look up the resonant frequency of bone - specifically the pelvic area. Early dance tunes experimented with this i.e tuning the bass drum to what was thought to be the resonant frequency of bone/hips. The idea was to encourage people to dance - at the molecular level. :)

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Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by KL1982 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:48 pm

Blairio wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:01 pm
The principle that the offset (difference) between two already low frequencies can result in a lower frequency still, is intriguing indeed.
PS Blairio: something you can have fun with as an experiment is to play the same frequency of sine tone through two speakers faced at each other, then stand between them (it doesn't have to be loud).

This creates a standing wave. If you position yourself at a certain point, there will be no sound (this point is called a 'node').


Acoustic levitation works on the principle of standing wave nodes. Given enough speakers positioned correctly above/below you rather than side-on (and the correct amplitude/frequency), you could levitate your head. But this could have some minor disturbances if the density/mass is of the wrong proportion i.e your head could explode.


Best
Kris

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Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by Scolbio » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:15 pm

cretaceousear wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:51 pm
So that apparent sickness at the US embassy in Cuba a few years ago?
I suppose even if it was sonic attack nobody wants to discuss it.
I've heard several explanations for that case. One was that it was not a sonic attack per se, but the symptoms they experienced were a side effect from whatever Soviet-era technology the Cubans were using on the diplomats. Some vacuum tube microwave device perhaps? Who knows.... We all know how skillful the Cubans are at maintaining antique machinery. Doesn't really explain the cases in China though

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Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by cretaceousear » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:46 am

Ah I'd missed that it happened in China too.
Cuba using old Soviet equipment seems a stretch unless a vintage gear enthusiast was having fun. Analog right? :mrgreen:
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Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by Xmit » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:11 am

one of the 'explanations' often cited for the infamous Dyatlov Pass incident is that some sort of infrasonic effect was createb by the wind around & through the mountains, causing panic, hysteria & possibly even hallucinations amongst the group, resulting in the tragedy.

Other climbers & mountaineers have reported similar effects, again often hand-in-hand with seeing strange lights in the sky & other optical anomalies.

The same goes for reports prior to volcanic eruptions & earthquakes - infrasound is almost always created with the right sort of tectonic activity.

There's also been some work on the idea of ancient people using cave systems, altering them with monoliths & other basic baffles - the paintings & other artefacts sometimes found nearby point to the fact that very low frequency sound was being used to induce altered states of mind.

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Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by novim » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:19 pm

I wrote a book about low-frequencies making people feel weird. And people building things to make bass to make each other feel weird.

https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/low-end-t ... 501335914/
Image
Low End Theory probes the much-mythologized field of bass and low-frequency sound. It begins in music but quickly moves far beyond, following vibratory phenomena across time, disciplines and disparate cultural spheres (including hauntings, laboratories, organ workshops, burial mounds, sound art, studios, dancefloors, infrasonic anomalies, and a global mystery called The Hum). Low End Theory asks what it is about bass that has fascinated us for so long and made it such a busy site of bio-technological experimentation, driving developments in science, technology, the arts, and religious culture.

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Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by Scolbio » Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:19 pm

novim wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:19 pm
I wrote a book about low-frequencies making people feel weird. And people building things to make bass to make each other feel weird.

https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/low-end-t ... 501335914/
Image
Low End Theory probes the much-mythologized field of bass and low-frequency sound. It begins in music but quickly moves far beyond, following vibratory phenomena across time, disciplines and disparate cultural spheres (including hauntings, laboratories, organ workshops, burial mounds, sound art, studios, dancefloors, infrasonic anomalies, and a global mystery called The Hum). Low End Theory asks what it is about bass that has fascinated us for so long and made it such a busy site of bio-technological experimentation, driving developments in science, technology, the arts, and religious culture.
Wow looks great! I'll have to get this.
Hold up, burial mounds?! What do they go to do with infrasound I've never heard about this?

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Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by novim » Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:23 pm

Scolbio wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:19 pm
Hold up, burial mounds?! What do they go to do with infrasound I've never heard about this?
Some burial mounds are effectively giant Helmholtz-type resonators. They can also have multiple interior "niches" that have very different sonic characteristics from one another - like in Maryanne Amacher's Sound Houses, or La Monte Young's Dream House - for visitors to feel their way through.

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Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by dubonaire » Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:35 pm

novim wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:19 pm
I wrote a book about low-frequencies making people feel weird. And people building things to make bass to make each other feel weird.

https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/low-end-t ... 501335914/
I've read that book.

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Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by dubonaire » Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:43 pm

Xmit wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:11 am
The same goes for reports prior to volcanic eruptions & earthquakes - infrasound is almost always created with the right sort of tectonic activity.
Low frequency waves are a sign of magmatic unrest and occur separately to volcanic earthquakes which occur closer to the surface. Earthquakes are strange. It's very difficult to discern the difference between the earth shaking and the sound, and often the sound comes from the buildings shaking. But after an earthquake the feeling of unease is quite eerie. I'm not sure if part of it is just the sense of how small and helpless we are in the face of geological forces.

There is a sound art field of earthquake sonification

https://sos.allshookup.org/

https://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/news-even ... side-earth

My favourite is D.V. Rogers

http://allshookup.org/seismic.htm

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Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by DubplateDerek » Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:34 am

KL1982 wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:08 pm
Blairio wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:01 pm
There is a lot to work through in that last post - thanks to KL1982 for their detail.
No problem.

Perhaps also look to Genasys. And USAF/Los Alamos.


And Israel.


LRAD/beamed sound are relatively old fields now, but may still be interesting, if unfamiliar with the field.


Here is a paper worth having a look through on the broader topic - http://researchonline.ljmu.ac.uk/id/epr ... 543845.pdf
It doesn't go into much depth (nor could it, as much of the research is private), but it is certainly worth a read on a quiet evening.


Blairio wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:01 pm
I guess in cases of naturally or man made occurrences of infrasound, whether the person experiencing them attributes the symptoms to supernatural causes or not, is down to their belief system.
Yes.

What may also interest you (tangentially) is current research underway RE psychedelics. Johns Hopkins are/have been undertaking a lot of work in this field, spearheaded by Roland Griffiths (many of his papers are online).


Attribution is a large area connected to psychological research into source-monitoring errors/faulty-source monitoring (which can be generated via sensory deprivation. And infrasound).

The danger of deprivation (as opposed to stimulation) is that deprivation generally produces negative psychological results (negative in the medical sense i.e with respect developmental neuropsychology etc).

The danger of stimulation is, generally, long + short-term physical side-effects. And organ failure.


One interesting aspect of infrasound is the influence it can have on mind/perception (phenomenologically and otherwise) without requiring a direct breach of the blood-brain barrier (i.e psychedelics).





Blairio wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:01 pm
As Simon and Garfunkel so elegantly put it in "The Boxer" 1970 - A man sees what he wants to see, and he disregards the rest.
And react often violently & defensively i.e the reaction of a child when told Santa isn't real.

Adults are generally no different. Many will go to war to defend a false belief before admitting or considering they may be wrong/their worldview is the product of long-term conditioning.



PS I have the feeling the lads in the original article are perhaps spinning a yarn based on some material they found online. If they said 7.3Hz, my ears would have pricked up a little.


All best
Kris
Fascinating post, thanks. What is the significance of 7.3Hz?
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Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by Prunesquallor » Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:52 am

It all sounds like an early 70s Hawkwind concert to me. :hihi:
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Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by aphantomvaper » Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:27 am

Prunesquallor wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:52 am
It all sounds like an early 70s Hawkwind concert to me. :hihi:
"We are Hawkwind and we play Infrasonic resonant frequencies!". :sb:
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Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by BlinkyLights » Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:15 am

Impressive.

I've judged car audio competitions and built and demoed systems in vehicles and homes and venues that were equally loud and got down to 5hz.

Never threw up, but it's crazy strong and one must be careful.

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Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by StillNotWorking » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:19 am

An earlier neighbour of mine used to work with sound isolating objects. One of the more interesting stories he told where they decoupled a 468 meter long suspension bridge to alter frequency so people in neighbouring households stop feeling nauseous.
From this story I believe it when people call out windmills as a source for health issues.

BTW, Simmons SDS-V are infamous for making brown notes with the appropriate speaker setup :lol:
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Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by speakeron » Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:57 am

Hawkwind gave the canonical advice on what to do in such situations nigh on 50 years ago. It's still solid advice today (basically screw everyone else and watch those orifices...).

https://youtu.be/XMSnVplyTOM

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Re: 6Hz at 130dB. We all threw up and cracked a warehouse wall

Post by Fog Door » Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:10 pm

I always closely follow the advice of Hawkwind wherever possible.

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