Strings and saw waves

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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by wuff_miggler » Thu May 21, 2020 4:12 pm

^ thats excellent jimY!
could see that being epic within a band context :D

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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by JimY » Fri May 22, 2020 10:13 am

Well, it's certainly getting there (it is essentially a Solina signal path). The biggest problem is the high pass filtering - it really needs to track the fundamental pitch and that is difficult with a standalone system, especially with a guitar input. With a fixed filter you have to find the sweet spot which barely covers 2 octaves. Outside of that it sounds either like a fuzz pedal or a Kazoo! In a string machine, the filter is fixed, but there's one for every note and its pitch is known. The exception was the Logan that had fixed filtering per voice - but each voice only covers 2 octaves so it got away with that.

I think playing with appropriate articulation is very important. With a fretted guitar I could only impose vibrato which also helps in getting the required sustain, but no proper glide. In a synth, I'd want something that demands the same and similar effort to the finger on a string experience. I know there's so much hate for them, but I always thought ARP's PPC pads were really good for getting a more natural vibrato (the # one for strings of course). Maybe its because I'm left-handed and a guitar player, but I really got on well with them. I have no idea why a keyboard controller couldn't have pressure pads in addition to wheel or stick.

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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by jorg » Fri May 22, 2020 10:54 am

cptnal wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 3:46 am
I did this a few months ago, more as an exercise in expression and dynamics than trying to achieve a specific sound....
Very impressive!

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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by jorg » Fri May 22, 2020 11:01 am

3hands wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 4:05 pm
That’s are the threads that got me to sign up to muffwiggler.
Thanks so much for this! It’s nice to see a thread I don’t have to “worry about”.
I have to worry about this one. Seems I'm about to waste hundreds of hours on this. :-)

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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by MindMachine » Fri May 22, 2020 11:39 pm

cptnal wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 3:46 am
Would it be off topic to suggest a triangle wave?

I did this a few months ago, more as an exercise in expression and dynamics than trying to achieve a specific sound. I can't remember the exact signal path, but the main idea was using the difference patch to control modulation depth. You can hear that higher harmonics come in with louder and higher notes.

Fantastic. Was that with just a static keyboard controlling?
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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by cptnal » Sat May 23, 2020 7:25 am

MindMachine wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 11:39 pm
cptnal wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 3:46 am
Would it be off topic to suggest a triangle wave?

I did this a few months ago, more as an exercise in expression and dynamics than trying to achieve a specific sound. I can't remember the exact signal path, but the main idea was using the difference patch to control modulation depth. You can hear that higher harmonics come in with louder and higher notes.

Fantastic. Was that with just a static keyboard controlling?
Thank you, and thank you jorg.

No keyboard - it's entirely self-playing. I'll often start with a Krell-ish base. Rather, a function's EOC triggering a sample and hold determines the time of the next cycle. The S&H's input needn't be random. It's such a simple and versatile idea that I keep coming back to it. So the whole patch revolves around that idea and as is often the case I'm trying to get as much movement as I can from as few sources as possible. Case in point - the second "cello" is just the first through a long delay.

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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by tardishead » Thu May 28, 2020 3:55 am

KSS wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 8:16 pm
VZvision wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 11:50 am
perhaps a bit of portamento to model it as fretless ...
Typical portamento-glide wil be backwards or missing correct relationship. Expo = slow to start building as 'distance' is covered, ending quickly. Linear = constant change rate. Neither is what actually happens.

You need S-shaped transitions. Slow to begin the finger position change -inertia, then very quickly to the very near correct point on the fretboard -muscle/spatial memory, ending by small degree modification of finger position relatively slowly as ear-finger feedback loop engages to get correct pitch. Modulation at the destination 'covering' the final position seek. Increasing modulation if called for by the piece.

If going for a simpler version you'd want to start linear and finish expo. Backwards from typical synth expo glide.
Yeh right. Thanks for breaking this down. I've always wondered why I cant get a realistic performance sound.
Is there a module that incorporates this? Or how could this be achieved. I have both exp and linear slew modules. Would a log response be better?

I have only recently started to explore the idea of mimicking acoustic instruments and I am really blown away by how close you can get. I have 4 Polymoog resonators and there a world of exploration right there. To make it realistic - as well as body resonances you have to think of room resonances as well. If you record a violin or most acoustic instruments in a dead space it sounds terrible and sterile.

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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by Rex Coil 7 » Thu May 28, 2020 4:08 am

JimY wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 10:13 am
... I think playing with appropriate articulation is very important. With a fretted guitar I could only impose vibrato which also helps in getting the required sustain, but no proper glide.
... a bit of a side track here, but it's worth knowing (or remembering) that the guitar+slide+Ebow thing works excellent for improvised string sounds. Add distortion to suit if needed ... otherwise that little formula works pretty well. I LUV my Ebows .... LUV them. :)

Back to topic .... :)
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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by Rex Coil 7 » Thu May 28, 2020 4:15 am

cptnal wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 7:25 am
.... Case in point - the second "cello" is just the first through a long delay.
AH! Yes! Quite effective indeed!

Y'know, Brian May (guitar, band "Queen") made excellent use of delays (aka "echo" a la 1970s jargon). A lot of what sounds like a dual guitar lead is actually just him. Properly timed to fit just right with the tempo, it can be used to make it sound as though there are two musicians playing, one on the melody, the other various intervals apart, all depending on how the player ~works~ the delay vs the dry line.

Nice adaptive use of that technique there! :tu:
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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by synkrotron » Thu May 28, 2020 4:15 am

Back of topic, for a moment, if you don't mind.
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 4:08 am
I LUV my Ebows
How many have you got?

I know there are a couple of versions so perhaps you have an older one.

I've got just the "plus" version, from around 2002. I don't use it as often as I should...

Okay, back on topic again.

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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by wuff_miggler » Thu May 28, 2020 4:22 am

ebow is great - seconded on suitability!

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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by tardishead » Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:37 pm

Really intrigued by a lot of the stuff in this thread and enjoying incorporating some new techniques.
Mixing the pulse in with saw waves really works for me. Adds way more realism IMO
A bit confused about the use of noise as a FM source. Should noise be proportional to volume. As string gets louder so does noise? Or should it be used at the start of the "bowing action" to simulate the start of bow friction on string or add realistic attack on more aggressive playing? Not sure about this! :help:
Also when using a few instances of a "violin" patch for polyphony I assume you would need different separate noise sources for each VCO.
I'm more inclined to build modular realtime patches rather than overdub one single patch many times.
Using ring mods as VCAs can create very realistic bowing/tremelo type sounds.

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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by KSS » Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:56 pm

@tardishead
LOL. all of the above. Not laughing at all you wrote, rather saying yes, all you wrote is what you do.

As for noise, if you only have one source, you can run it through filter-s to get different results for different parts of your patch. Ring mods another good noise changer.

There are two distinct places and reasons yo're using noise. One is to emulate the variability of the wave generating mechanics. The other is to help your ear-mind 'buy-in' to the simulation of the resonant qualities of the instrument body. Or bodies.

In both these cases it's a noise-to-taste for level. Like adding salt to a recipe, you know when you've got it right, and also when yo added too much. Also like salt in recipes what you feel is too much might be someone else's this needs more salt!

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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by wuff_miggler » Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:01 pm

the doepfer A-106-6 Xpander filter has 8 simultaneous filter outputs, allpass, notch, lowpass, highpass, etc.
it's rad for this sort of stuff :-)

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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by tardishead » Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:58 am

I'm intrigued by Fricko's mention of the resonant peaks of classic violins. But approx how strong are these peaks 3db?
Sound on Sound had this figure for response of violinImage
So you need a HPF with resonant peak at around 300hz and a LPF with a res peak at around 4khz and various band pass filters in parallel to do some res peaks in the middle? Or maybe a HPF and then a few res low pass filters in series with various degrees of attenuation to approximate the response?
I have tried my friends Haible string filter and IMO although a great filter I found it too "phasey" to create realistic string sounds.
Last edited by tardishead on Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by KSS » Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:33 am

Go to Fricko's site for an amazing and wonderful 3rd party builder's video on the blip module. Among other things.

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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by wuff_miggler » Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:56 am

im really looking forward to putting together the range of fricko modules.
most of the modules are pretty strongly related to everythiung this thread talks about - but for other instruments too - reallly looking forward to hearing them in action - unfortunately too few demos of them online.

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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by wuff_miggler » Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:05 am

@tardisheatd

i was just playing around with a saranji (indian string instrument) style patch.

i tell you what's freaking great for strings...

doepfer's A-199 spring reverb ...just absolutely cranked...with the feedback loop passing through a filter to control the res. i've just scratched the surface of this...but man - it is a real winner :D

the above with PWM set for a small duty cycle

and the real revelation to me today was doepfer Wasp filter - set at the sweet spot where it starts freaking out...amazing - i lost a few hours :D

im rocking this patch with a ribbon controller - so when i slide over 2 octaves - it has a real vocal quality when the resonance kicks in.

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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by commodorejohn » Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:30 am

Okay, that I want to hear.
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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by VZvision » Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:23 pm

tardishead wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:58 am
I'm intrigued by Fricko's mention of the resonant peaks of classic violins. But approx how strong are these peaks 3db?
Sound on Sound had this figure for response of violinImage
So you need a HPF with resonant peak at around 300hz and a LPF with a res peak at around 4khz and various band pass filters in parallel to do some res peaks in the middle? Or maybe a HPF and then a few res low pass filters in series with various degrees of attenuation to approximate the response?
I have tried my friends Haible string filter and IMO although a great filter I found it too "phasey" to create realistic string sounds.
I used this exact template for the filterbank setup as a jumping off point when I started building up the patch. The high pass behind and the low pass in front of the filterbank, I more used as a low and hi cut respectively to mould the oscillator stack going into and coming out of the filterbank.

Built the spectrum with a RES-4 at first and then a 296e and the 296e won out hands down for realism. Mostly because I found the filterbank took a lot of really fine adjustment to get just right (easier on the 296e). Also, I found the spectrum setup was only really convincing for maximum 2 octaves (even at the edge of this, the illusion became tenuous). Once you got outside that, the spectrum needed to be adjusted for the change in frequency. Adjusted it manually but next time I build this up, I’d love to try to have the spectrum respond to oscillator frequency so a larger range can be achieved.

It also did get me wondering whether some form of spectral transfer between an actual violin sample and the oscillator stack would be helpful? Probably cheating though at that point :wink:

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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by wuff_miggler » Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:52 pm

commodorejohn wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:30 am
Okay, that I want to hear.
i've been 5 days on my modular since i installed it - and 3 days using my ribbon for the first time - but i've managed to "tune" my ribbon well now (i didnt even think i'd need to be tuning this thing just like an acoustic instrument - but i kinda like that part strangely enough).

i'll see how i go today recording :D

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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by wuff_miggler » Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:02 pm

got around to recording...

i've been messing with this patch far too long.
anyway - i think it could do with quite a few extra dimensions - in terms of articulation and what not - but i tried a range of octaves etc.
also not sure about that buzz/overload from the Wasp....i think its good - but i need more time working out that sweet spot - in my monitors when i was recording - i could hear clearer it sounded more like midrange overload you hear in cheaper pedals (most likely need to lower the filters frequency)

sounds half way between a theramin, yayli tanbur and a saranji. Ercumen Batanay is my hero...very inspired by this:



anyway - i had a lot of fun playing it :) i would have gotten a lot further if my damn trautonium filter was here :/
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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by tardishead » Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:32 pm

VZvision wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:23 pm
It also did get me wondering whether some form of spectral transfer between an actual violin sample and the oscillator stack would be helpful? Probably cheating though at that point :wink:
Well that would be awesome because the amplitude axis on the Sound On Sound figure has no scale. I could not seem to find any response figures out there that did show this

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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by VZvision » Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:05 pm

FWIW Checked my save on the 296e and my jump off point had the 300Hz and 700Hz peaks at around -6db and 0db respectively with sharp cuts in between (-30 to -60 dB). The ramp up to 2khz to 4 kHz maxed out at prob between +4 to +7db. Those measures rely on the accuracy of the 296e’s vertical scale, and, like I said, I found a lot of fine scale adjustment was going on while I played around with it (especially across larger pitch ranges).

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Re: Strings and saw waves

Post by commodorejohn » Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:55 pm

wuff_miggler wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:02 pm
got around to recording...
Rad :D
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