Donald Tillman "Palette of Static Waveforms"

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EATyourGUITAR
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Re: Donald Tillman "Palette of Static Waveforms"

Post by EATyourGUITAR » Fri May 22, 2020 12:38 pm

ricko wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:46 am
I am trying to remember a post where the writer was simultaneously so sneering, incorrect (where does Don claim to have invented these waveforms or say that he only likes static waves etc?)
Let's Meet the New Neighbors

Center right is the eventooth wave. (This is a new waveform so I get to make up the name.)
completely new never been done before. only don can do it. that is exactly what he is claiming. you are gas lighting me and everyone else trying to call me a liar. the evidence is right there on his website. all you have is a lame semantic argument which I really don't care about. are you going to say that I am a liar because he never used the word invented? clearly the don thinks he did it first by his own admission. this is the part that I object to. so now I disagree with don. but I still don't care about the semantic trolling which is totally unproductive to the principal matter of mathematics and false claims that can not be verified.
ricko wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:46 am
and foolish (the pseudo-science babble about perceptual models, spare us!) Probably I have done as bad, mind you, but I hope I would have apologized after realizing. He could have made his point (which, to the extent that it was that there are more interesting waveforms possible, and that research has provided much new information that can feed in, I agree with, but I expect instrument physics rather than neuroscience is a better place to start) better with more actual respect not the insincere disclaimer.
you have every right to have your opinion. I respectfully disagree with your opinion. the most counter productive thing we can do in the areas of research involving sound is use pseudo scientific terms such as mellow and bright. if perceptual models were not important for scientific research then they would not exist. a scientist working in areas of sound will have many perceptual models. I can list some of then for you. the threshold of human hearing. the threshold of pain with respect to human hearing. the equal loudness curves formerly fletcher-munson curves. there is a perceptual model of loudness that is excellent after 10 years of REAL research. not that you would know about that. look up ITU-R BS.1770-3/ATSC A/85. in the USA that is the only standard the government trusts to enforce loudness laws in broadcasting. do you think that I made all this shit up? really!? 10 years of research must be pseudo science because according to some guy on the internet all talk of perceptual models is pseudo science. you can put your soap box away if you don't know what everyone is talking about. perhaps it is Dunning–Kruger effect.
ricko wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 9:46 am
B.t.w. Is a forum on modular synths really the place for promoting commercial VSTs? ... Seems like a hard sell. In what universe is "Go digital" an answer to "Are there extra possibilities for analog?"
if don is a mathematician who uses a computer to type a report about mathematics should we tell him to fuck off and write with pencil? do all the mathematicians need to segregate themselves into two groups. those that use calculators and those that use pencils on paper? the guy is using math and computers to generate pictures. I did not see any analog synths or hear any music yet. you are way off. I used a piece of software to do similar research but I ended up with the more general formulas which are way more useful than this limited sub set that Don is working on. I can publish them too. it would look similar to Don's formula but with more coefficients and it would be written as an infinite sum using a notation that is more common in mathematics. right now I am super busy with school and other projects so probably it won't happen. honestly the last thing I care about is showing you how cool I am. I have more important things to do. after the treatment you gave me here, I will probably be less inclined to show you what I am working on because there are ungrateful assholes like you who contribute nothing but negativity. no scientific points. nothing intelligent. no critical thinking.
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Re: Donald Tillman "Palette of Static Waveforms"

Post by Aaronautical001 » Fri May 22, 2020 3:32 pm

Dumb question from me, as I think this was implied previously; but to be sure - so aligning the phase of waveforms from a single oscillator isn’t something that’s simple to do with utility modules, or is it? If so, how might I do this?

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Re: Donald Tillman "Palette of Static Waveforms"

Post by jdontillman » Fri May 22, 2020 10:24 pm

WTF?

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Re: Donald Tillman "Palette of Static Waveforms"

Post by jdontillman » Fri May 22, 2020 10:45 pm

Aaronautical001 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 3:32 pm
Dumb question from me, as I think this was implied previously; but to be sure - so aligning the phase of waveforms from a single oscillator isn’t something that’s simple to do with utility modules, or is it? If so, how might I do this?
That's right, there's no simple way to do it with utility modules. The oscillator has to be specifically designed to produce phase-correct waveforms.

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Re: Donald Tillman "Palette of Static Waveforms"

Post by Xomrys » Fri May 22, 2020 11:27 pm

One thing sorely lacking in most synthesizers is a simple, preferably voltage controlled crossfade between waveforms instead of the manual mix. the crossfade should be such that the timbre changes but the perceived amplitude does not. this is a very simple way to get continuous animation in waveforms besides PWM or waveshaping. like for instance crossfading between sine and saw.

If you have all partials phase aligned, this is easy to do with a linear crossfade. Without phase alignment 'equal power' crossfade will be closer, but you will still get an uneven and phase-dependent response.

again, it doesn't matter if the technology is simple and/or the math isn't new, what matters is that it is musically useful and not readily available.

If the waveforms are generated through wavetables, there's also nothing to keep the brightness control from being continuous. Instead of -6 db/oct, -12 db/oct, there could be a continuous variation between 0 db (impulse-spectrum) and -18 dB.

So -- per VCO you can have source 1 {all/even/odd}, source 2 {all/even/odd], 'brightness' controls on each source and then an assignable crossfade. (I would also rather have other harmonic profiles, such as every third or fourth harmonic... general DX7 type tones)

I would be interested in such a synth. just don't make the whole thing DSP. do a PPG 2.0 type design where each oscillator has its own variable clock (and DAC), so there is no aliasing.

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Re: Donald Tillman "Palette of Static Waveforms"

Post by wuff_miggler » Fri May 22, 2020 11:31 pm

Xomrys wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 11:27 pm
One thing sorely lacking in most synthesizers is a simple, preferably voltage controlled crossfade between waveforms instead of the manual mix.
look up the "interpolating scanner" - it does the very thing you describe :)
Don and J Haible have worked on a design like this!

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Re: Donald Tillman "Palette of Static Waveforms"

Post by ricko » Sat May 23, 2020 2:17 am

Xomrys wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 11:27 pm
One thing sorely lacking in most synthesizers is a simple, preferably voltage controlled crossfade between waveforms instead of the manual mix.
Sergio Franco designed this for the (1960s) SalMar Construction, calling it a SeeSaw. IIRC using a CA3054 diode array. It is a good name.

There are also other kinds of mixing possible, which give less straightforward intermediate waveshapes. I have found the diode mixer pretty useful (see MinMaxMix for an example, http://electro-music.com/forum/post-440891.html)

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Re: Donald Tillman "Palette of Static Waveforms"

Post by Aaronautical001 » Sat May 23, 2020 2:51 am

Thanks for your response Don. This discussion is really opening my eyes. It’s helping me look at my DPO RxMx combination from a more useful perspective (I mean, I knew why they did waveform mixing, but had little in understanding the broader context).

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Re: Donald Tillman "Palette of Static Waveforms"

Post by KSS » Sat May 23, 2020 3:00 am

jdontillman wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 10:45 pm
The oscillator has to be specifically designed to produce phase-correct waveforms.
Like the ARP 1004.

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