Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

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cptnal
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by cptnal » Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:30 pm

PhineasFreak wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:45 am
I'M NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT THIS BEHAVIOUR
What I'd like to complain about is people changing their avatar. Confuses the hell out of me. :mad:

Only joking. :hihi: I'm glad you found someone who got it. :tu:

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by PhineasFreak » Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:20 pm

cptnal wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:30 pm
PhineasFreak wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:45 am
I'M NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT THIS BEHAVIOUR
What I'd like to complain about is people changing their avatar. Confuses the hell out of me. :mad:

Only joking. :hihi: I'm glad you found someone who got it. :tu:
sorry - had to change avatar - the old one couldve led to great confusion and even legal issues for people,, just plain wouldnt have been right. :sstorm:
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by Paranormal Patroler » Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:49 am

Pelsea wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:39 pm
That's a chaotic system. I use them a lot in my music, and one day I'll get around to cleaning up my notes and putting out another book.
I'd love to read a second book from you, even more so if it's aimed at more "advanced" patches.

PhineasFreak

In the meantime, may I suggest you look into the Logistic Equation. You can find a version of it here, named Chaos Patch http://www.doepfer.de/a100_man/a100_patch.htm . It's worth looking into, it is purely mathematical and a great introduction to chaos theory and how to patch it up. Far better than getting a module that does the work for you. I have a workshop where I go through the patch in video that I still need to upload on YT. :doh:

It's impossible to say why your patch of logic modules helps your patch continue what it's doing, without looking at the specifics of how you've patched it up. Not to contest Pelsea, but personally I'm unsure it's a chaotic system from your description. Can you share more details or a specific / simplified example of what would be a patch that works in the way you describe?
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by PhineasFreak » Wed Mar 18, 2020 6:48 am

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:49 am
Pelsea wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:39 pm
That's a chaotic system. I use them a lot in my music, and one day I'll get around to cleaning up my notes and putting out another book.
I'd love to read a second book from you, even more so if it's aimed at more "advanced" patches.

PhineasFreak

In the meantime, may I suggest you look into the Logistic Equation. You can find a version of it here, named Chaos Patch http://www.doepfer.de/a100_man/a100_patch.htm . It's worth looking into, it is purely mathematical and a great introduction to chaos theory and how to patch it up. Far better than getting a module that does the work for you. I have a workshop where I go through the patch in video that I still need to upload on YT. :doh:

It's impossible to say why your patch of logic modules helps your patch continue what it's doing, without looking at the specifics of how you've patched it up. Not to contest Pelsea, but personally I'm unsure it's a chaotic system from your description. Can you share more details or a specific / simplified example of what would be a patch that works in the way you describe?
oh good lord - thats just confusing me more! are the vcas acting as 'and' gates in that patch @Paranormal Patroler?

i'll have to find a way to show you an example of my patchings for comparison - what would have a bunch of ladik modules and also allow me to draw patch cables nice and visibly?

ok - heres a relatively simple example and i'll try to explain as much as possible:

Image

- lfos might be any cv or moving voltage input i have - they get turned into logic lo/his by the derivator and comparator [max min just used as a way to combine multiple sources to simplify when i have a lot of inputs - theres other options for combining too]

- the logics are fed into the boolean gates and flipflops and stuff with a ton of dif feedback loops and dif hi/los triggering eachother

- the multiples are the kinda places i'd take my main outs to feed the clock/reset/direction inputs on a z8000 or the other step sequencers, as well as resets on vcos, lfos and anything that can be influenced by trigs/gates.

- i also send output clocks/gates/trigs from some things like z8000 into the network of logics and stuff to add further feedback paths...

[good luck following all that, sorry!]
https://thomaswulfe.bandcamp.com/
http://www.soundcloud.com/ylem-records/
http://www.soundcloud.com/best-of-ylem/
http://www.soundcloud.com/waxcide/
http://thomaswulfe.muffwiggler.com/
http://ljunggrenaudio.com/
http://waxcide.bandcamp.com/
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by cptnal » Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:46 am

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:49 am
Pelsea wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:39 pm
That's a chaotic system. I use them a lot in my music, and one day I'll get around to cleaning up my notes and putting out another book.
I'd love to read a second book from you, even more so if it's aimed at more "advanced" patches.
Seconded!
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:49 am

In the meantime, may I suggest you look into the Logistic Equation. You can find a version of it here, named Chaos Patch http://www.doepfer.de/a100_man/a100_patch.htm . It's worth looking into, it is purely mathematical and a great introduction to chaos theory and how to patch it up. Far better than getting a module that does the work for you. I have a workshop where I go through the patch in video that I still need to upload on YT. :doh:
Yes please! Meanwhile, I think there's some discussion about the Chaos Patch (way) earlier in this thread if you're interested in digging deeper.

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by Paranormal Patroler » Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:42 am

cptnal wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:46 am
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:49 am

In the meantime, may I suggest you look into the Logistic Equation. You can find a version of it here, named Chaos Patch http://www.doepfer.de/a100_man/a100_patch.htm . It's worth looking into, it is purely mathematical and a great introduction to chaos theory and how to patch it up. Far better than getting a module that does the work for you. I have a workshop where I go through the patch in video that I still need to upload on YT. :doh:
Yes please! Meanwhile, I think there's some discussion about the Chaos Patch (way) earlier in this thread if you're interested in digging deeper.
Was that last part addressed to me? If so, thanks! I'm pretty familiar with how the Logistic Equation works by now. I built my presentation based around the Doepfer patch and what I had available. In case you or anyone is interested in specifics this would be the full patch that I presented during Eter festival 2020:

Image

I love how simple it is and how the use of some modules made me expand my understanding.
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by cptnal » Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:52 pm

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:42 am
cptnal wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:46 am
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:49 am

In the meantime, may I suggest you look into the Logistic Equation. You can find a version of it here, named Chaos Patch http://www.doepfer.de/a100_man/a100_patch.htm . It's worth looking into, it is purely mathematical and a great introduction to chaos theory and how to patch it up. Far better than getting a module that does the work for you. I have a workshop where I go through the patch in video that I still need to upload on YT. :doh:
Yes please! Meanwhile, I think there's some discussion about the Chaos Patch (way) earlier in this thread if you're interested in digging deeper.
Was that last part addressed to me? If so, thanks! I'm pretty familiar with how the Logistic Equation works by now. I built my presentation based around the Doepfer patch and what I had available. In case you or anyone is interested in specifics this would be the full patch that I presented during Eter festival 2020:

Image

I love how simple it is and how the use of some modules made me expand my understanding.
To answer your question, no. I was talking to the OP by that point. But thanks for the pic - looks interesting. :tu:

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by Pelsea » Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:04 pm

With nothing to do but hang around home hiding from COVID19, I've worked up a generalized tutorial on patching logistic map.
You can easily find the math and other descriptions on the net, so I'll just talk about the patch. (For a good description, see https://geoffboeing.com/2015/03/chaos-t ... istic-map/ )(My version draws heavily on the Doepfer manual and Paranormal's patch.) The challenge is to generate a new value that is equal to the old value (k) that is S(k-k2) where S is a value from 0 to 4.0.
analogistic.png

This is a feedback system, but with the feedback chunked by the sample and hold. (Otherwise it would oscillate at some very high frequency.) The only input required is a trigger for the S&H. The S&H output goes to (probably) pitch of a VCO and to the rest of the patch via a 5 way multiple.
The VCA produces k2 by using the same value (old k) for both signal and control input. This VCA must be linear and DC coupled.
The next step is to invert the output with a reversible attenuator. Set it all the way negative.
This inverted k2 is added to old k in a mixer (again DC coupled). Turn the knobs to unity gain, which is probably all the way up.
Getting S is the tricky part, because few modules have a gain of 4. However, we can fake it by applying the same voltage to four inputs of a mixer. Turn all knobs up full. The output of this mixer goes back to the input of the sample and hold.

This may work right away, but it probably will require tweaking. What you need to do is adjust the scaling factor S. How depends on the details of your modules. It's easiest if the S&H has an input level knob. If it doesn't, any knob on the four input mixer will work.
Start with the knob off, and slowly turn it up. You will just hear a gradually rising pitch until you get to S = 3.0. As you go above 3.0 there will be two pitches-- not alternating but a couple high, a couple low. Going higher the pitches will spread apart and at 3.4 two more will appear. Going higher yet, you'll hear odd patterns with increasing numbers of pitches. Sometimes there will be a nearly repeating pattern but nudge the knob just a bit and the order of the tones will go random. Another nudge and a more complex pattern appears. If you go too high (S> 4.00) the output will go negative and the tones will lock onto a low pitch. To get out of this, turn the knob down to the halfway point and gradually bring it up again. The interesting stuff happens at the right end of this map:
logMap.png
It is a fascinating patch, but really fussy to adjust. That's why I prefer to do it in a Max patcher. It should be easy to build into a module, either as a Ornament & Crime app or a discrete circuit like this one: https://arxiv.org/pdf/nlin/0603025.pdf. Then you could design in a fine control for S and keep the output in bounds
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by Paranormal Patroler » Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:15 am

Pelsea wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:04 pm
It should be easy to build into a module, either as a Ornament & Crime app or a discrete circuit like this one: https://arxiv.org/pdf/nlin/0603025.pdf. Then you could design in a fine control for S and keep the output in bounds
If anyone needs this under one hood Klangbau Köln already have a module version of the equation (https://www.modulargrid.net/e/klangbau- ... -gleichung) but what's the fun in that ?!?

For me the essence of trying the Logistic Equation patch on your own is that it forces you to use basic utilitarian modules to make something far more complex, no sequencer needed, no fancy module necessary. The only aspect of this patch that had never even crossed my mind before is using a VCA as an x² factor. I've since been using this as a solution to physical modeling problems with good results. This could have been obvious to most of you (I'm looking at you Pelsea), and it is for me now, but when I was trying to understand the patch a little light bulb turned on inside my head!
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by pugix » Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:15 pm

cptnal wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:13 am
I wondered about audio rate stuff when you first started talking about Quantussy cells since the Cocoquantus is capable of making its own sound, but the idea kinda fell by the wayside. So it's interesting to hear it done. Sounds rather magical.
Thanks. And I also use my Quantisise (six Quantussy cells) in audio rate. Sometimes I patch three in a cell ring, as LFO, and then use each of those cells to modulate the pitch of one of the audio rate cells.
cptnal wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:13 am
By-the-by, based on your video the YouTube algorithms reckon I'd also be interested in a demo of a Tesla coil and Chopin's Nocturnes. Go figure!
Makes perfect sense! :)
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by PhineasFreak » Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:40 pm

Pelsea wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:04 pm

analogistic.png
having read right back in this thread yesterday, seeing tha diagram today made me think very much 'ohhhhhhh'...
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by tardishead » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:33 am

Pelsea wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:04 pm
It is a fascinating patch, but really fussy to adjust. That's why I prefer to do it in a Max patcher. It should be easy to build into a module, either as a Ornament & Crime app or a discrete circuit like this one: https://arxiv.org/pdf/nlin/0603025.pdf. Then you could design in a fine control for S and keep the output in bounds
Yeh I tried this patch and although it is interesting it is definitely hard to tweak
I think I need to build an attenuator panel with 10 turn pots and dials for patches like this. Normal controls are not fine enough

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by oberdada » Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:54 am

PhineasFreak wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:05 am
youre completely misunderstanding - i'm talking about a subsyste sufficiently comple xthat it DOESNT lock - it prevents lock or wild changes too - it maintains stability - i was hoping ther might be a name for this i could look up and read further into
Indeed, chaos theory or generally nonlinear dynamic systems is a good place to start. There are also interesting ideas in cybernetics, such as homeostasis which is exactly about how to design systems such that they maintain stability even as they receive input from outside. Control theory in engineering appears to be highly relevant too. Other topics that are worth looking into are synchronisation, feedback systems, chaos control, and maybe parts of the studies of complex systems and self organisation.

Chaotic systems provide a limited but useful perspective on what goes on in a complex modular patch. First, chaos by definition is deterministic, so if you have any random module or source of noise in the patch it may no longer be a chaotic system in the proper sense. Second, any patch that does something musically interesting tends to be quite complex and involve a sound producing and sound shaping part (oscillators and filters) as well as a part that is more in charge of the structure and long time evolution (logic modules, LFOs). Chaos theory as a science has focused on relatively simple and homogenous systems, either in discrete time (the logistic map) or in continuous time (differential equations such as those that are implemented in modules such as Chaos Brother, Chaotica, Hyperchaos, the Jerksters and Sloths etc). The interconnection of discrete and continuous time systems, which is what we do in modular patches, has not been much studied at all. There is some literature on slow-fast systems, or differential equations with dynamics on two different time scales, and maybe some of it applies to situations that appear in a modular patch too.

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by oberdada » Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:59 am

Pelsea wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:39 pm
That's a chaotic system. I use them a lot in my music, and one day I'll get around to cleaning up my notes and putting out another book.
That one will be a must read. But before that, I guess, it's a must write!

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by electricanada » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:47 am

Here’s a useful thread with some SoundCloud links to sounds of the Doepfer logistic chaos patch: viewtopic.php?t=95917
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by PhineasFreak » Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:06 pm

oberdada wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:54 am
PhineasFreak wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:05 am
youre completely misunderstanding - i'm talking about a subsyste sufficiently comple xthat it DOESNT lock - it prevents lock or wild changes too - it maintains stability - i was hoping ther might be a name for this i could look up and read further into
Indeed,... ...and maybe some of it applies to situations that appear in a modular patch too.
thats a fantastic mine of information to dig through - thankyou muchly : )
https://thomaswulfe.bandcamp.com/
http://www.soundcloud.com/ylem-records/
http://www.soundcloud.com/best-of-ylem/
http://www.soundcloud.com/waxcide/
http://thomaswulfe.muffwiggler.com/
http://ljunggrenaudio.com/
http://waxcide.bandcamp.com/
Just remember what Phineas would say... "eurorack can get you through times of no money better than money can get you through times of no eurorack". - bkbirge/

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by gis_sweden » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:53 am

We have talked about this before? Must have?
Logistic Equation Patch is cool. When output cv alters between a few states. Some day I might buy Klangbau Köln RND Modul Logistische Gleichung. No, you don't like that... I know.
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:15 am
For me the essence of trying the Logistic Equation patch on your own is that it forces you to use basic utilitarian modules to make something far more complex, no sequencer needed, no fancy module necessary.
I agree, but... I have done the patch the "hard way".






5 minutes later

Okay, I just contacted a seller... Lets see it theres a deal. This might be my "Corona Module". And it's just the right one. If I get it I let you know. #badtimning #cheating

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by zengomi » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:56 pm

your very soul

Patch designed as self-generating. Developed over 26 recordings. During the final recording I succumbed to tweaking (quite limited).
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by Paranormal Patroler » Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:43 am

There is no "cheating". I hate that word, I'd never use it. Getting the Logistic module is a great idea, I've considered it myself a few times. But making the patch for yourself with simple components is a great endeavor; that's all I said. I am no purist in any sense of the word, and I don't get when people get obsessed over things like that. Whatever works and whatever rocks your boat.

And yes, the Logistic equation was brought up earlier in the thread, but it's a great introductory patch for many reasons: it's simple, it explains basic elements of mathematical chaos, it can be done with simple utility modules, and it introduces new ways of thinking about modules. It's a very good patch to get people into the self-generating mindset in my opinion.
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by PhineasFreak » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:14 am

from this: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=229118&sid=05a9d5f ... 15d47e222a
adnauseam wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:16 pm
cptnal wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:45 am
A couple of unsynced LFOs into a mixer and into a quantizer. Reset one or both LFOs with divisions of the master clock for repeatable phrases.
This is easily my favorite method. I'm almost obsessed with it! I really like the LFOs in MI Peak's expert / dual mode. You get wave shaping and phase offset for each waveform. You can get some fun melodies if you're resetting and playing with the phase.

On top of that, bring in some sort of rhythmic pattern generator like a uStep, Zularic Repetitor, a Launch Codes or what have you. Sync those with the reset clock of your LFOs for some ace patterns... ...I'm still experimenting with this patch years and years after finding it.
does anyone in here use this kinda patch, and if so, do you find its just as adept as any fancy all in one modules like MI marbles/Qu-bit bloom/turing machine/whatever?

i'm looking to replace my marbles, i want a solution based more around patch programming with separate modules and ive been scared off/disappointed by the all in one complex modules that offer no user control due to just being random or have too many horror stories about the quality [qu-bit]
https://thomaswulfe.bandcamp.com/
http://www.soundcloud.com/ylem-records/
http://www.soundcloud.com/best-of-ylem/
http://www.soundcloud.com/waxcide/
http://thomaswulfe.muffwiggler.com/
http://ljunggrenaudio.com/
http://waxcide.bandcamp.com/
Just remember what Phineas would say... "eurorack can get you through times of no money better than money can get you through times of no eurorack". - bkbirge/

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by gis_sweden » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:26 am

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:43 am
...But making the patch for yourself with simple components is a great endeavor...
It is. I love it. And I mostly use analog bread and butter modules (lego pieces). But with a small modular there is no room for both elegant Logistic Equation patch and modules to hear what it is doing. Therefore I choose to cheat ;) . Yes, I bought the "RND Modul Logistische Gleichung". I hope it finds its way throu Europe in these Corona times. Should I put it in quarantine :hmm:

And I have to confess. I have also bought a cv to midi module (very unanalog). I have 2 Yamaha QY-10. Hmmmm let's see what I can come up with.

There is no good or bad, wrong or right way to make music/sound.

Todays bonuspatch
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/511426/

Really simple patch. Cv from NLC Sloth to quantizer (Doepfer A-156), via attenuverter. Triggers from Doepfer A-160(161). But a tone is only generated if there is a change in cv from Sloth. Its not 100% generative :hihi: First there is no cv connected to the oscillators. I connect them one at a time. The noise is also controlled by the same Sloth. The analog delay is connected to Barton Musical Circuits (BMC) 4 Quadrant Multiplier and Panner acting as a panner, controlled by NLC Jerk Off (still a sick name on a great module). The ehh drum sound is generated by BMC Decaying Analog Noise.

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by Paranormal Patroler » Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:43 am

gis_sweden wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:26 am
And I have to confess. I have also bought a cv to midi module (very unanalog). I have 2 Yamaha QY-10. Hmmmm let's see what I can come up with.
Which CV-to-MIDI module did you get? I have a bunch. Making self-generating patches to use with natural sounding instruments is an absolute delight!
I also love the QY series but I don't have them in Sweden, unfortunately, I'll need to bring them over at some point.

Since we're talking gear for a second, I added a Teletype on the case where these types of patches take place. Still at the early steps, but I'm hoping it'll prove to be indispensible for such patches! I mean, you can conjure up all kinds of procedures inside it.
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by gis_sweden » Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:21 am

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:43 am
Which CV-to-MIDI module did you get?
I bought an used PGH MIDI3 from 99musik. The module was an early version (I guess). It transposed up everything 2 octaves. PGH sent me a new IC for free. Now It works fine. Didnt know anything about midi to cv before I bought this. MIDI3 only handles one midi channel at a time, but can act like a split keyboard. Works fine. I have experienced strange behaviour...
https://app.box.com/s/qpegpgvvyjhw0ahzknp4yhstlgto81q8
Very seldom thou. I dont know why. Shortage of power? But I don't think so.
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:43 am
I added a Teletype
Ohhh Teletype. I have meditated a lot to equip my self with a mental block against Teletype GAS. Such a strange product, but absolutely charming. You must upload some results.

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gis_sweden
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by gis_sweden » Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:49 pm

Notification from a QY-10 user. Okay, I cant connect my two QY-10s (one as master, one as slave) and use different time signatures on them :bang:
But I can make a for example 7/4 pattern on QY-10 A and record on QY-10 B. Then I make a 3/4 pattern and and record A -> B. Primitive MIDI-techniques...

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