Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

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PhineasFreak
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Post by PhineasFreak » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:40 am

cptnal wrote:Takes a bit of tuning so it's not firing all the time.
solved that problem for euro users - ladik s-090 probability skipper:

just dial back the % until you got the number of trigs you want!

and its a dual in 4hp with cv over the percentage

even better than you'd at first think - if the excessive firing trigger is being turned on too often by the same systems feedback thats turning it off, for example a latch switch, then take a cv out from that system and feed into prob skippers cv in - the whole system now adjusts the probabiility every time it gets too high!

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Post by gis_sweden » Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:15 pm

Sounds from some sort of "poormans-quantussy x 3 patch". AM-modulation, deeeep blurps and random beeps. Analog delay pedal and spring reverb for FX. :party:
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/496238/

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Post by cptnal » Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:39 pm

gis_sweden wrote:Sounds from some sort of "poormans-quantussy x 3 patch". AM-modulation, deeeep blurps and random beeps. Analog delay pedal and spring reverb for FX. :party:
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/496238/
I liked it, but the cats are divided. :cloud:
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Post by gis_sweden » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:01 am

cptnal wrote:I liked it, but the cats are divided. :cloud:
One of your cats have a very reffined taste - or hearing problems...

Three more from the same patch

Modular Conversation Moderato
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/496327/

Modular Conversation Andante
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/496326/

Modular Conversation Adagio
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/496325/

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by gis_sweden » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:11 pm

First time I visit muffs with this new layout! :help: Surprise!
Well, I made a "burst-patch".
https://freesound.org/people/gis_sweden/sounds/500639/
You can make burst-patches in many different ways, with different results. In this patch I wanted every burst to have its own "burst-speed".
I use a NLC Sloth LFO and a comparator as main components. The result is a little old-school sounding. I like that :razz:
Between the bursts is a random note, controlled by the inverted comparator gate (through a slew).

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Re:

Post by oberdada » Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:45 pm

PhineasFreak wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:40 am
solved that problem for euro users - ladik s-090 probability skipper:

even better than you'd at first think - if the excessive firing trigger is being turned on too often by the same systems feedback thats turning it off, for example a latch switch, then take a cv out from that system and feed into prob skippers cv in - the whole system now adjusts the probabiility every time it gets too high!
Adaptive probability distributions is an interesting idea. Its use in algorithmic music seems to go back to James Tenney, who had a technique of randomly generating pitches. If you just pick random notes independently of previous notes you will ge a certain amount of notes that repeat before the other eleven pitch classes have been used. So Tenney's idea was to keep track of the recently chosen pitches and exclude them from the probability distribution.

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by gis_sweden » Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:12 am

Playing with NLC FF-Chaos. I will have fun with this module. The game has only begun. I have to say that chaos modules are great in generative patches and big help when your modular is of less impressive size.


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Re: Re:

Post by PhineasFreak » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:30 am

oberdada wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:45 pm
PhineasFreak wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:40 am
solved that problem for euro users - ladik s-090 probability skipper:

even better than you'd at first think - if the excessive firing trigger is being turned on too often by the same systems feedback thats turning it off, for example a latch switch, then take a cv out from that system and feed into prob skippers cv in - the whole system now adjusts the probabiility every time it gets too high!
Adaptive probability distributions is an interesting idea. Its use in algorithmic music seems to go back to James Tenney, who had a technique of randomly generating pitches. If you just pick random notes independently of previous notes you will ge a certain amount of notes that repeat before the other eleven pitch classes have been used. So Tenney's idea was to keep track of the recently chosen pitches and exclude them from the probability distribution.
sounds complex to do for multiple different pitch voltages - unless you have a digital module like mi's marbles that has the ability to record a sequence then cv the degree to which it ignore note on the recorded scale - to achieve that indiscrte patched modules must quite a feat...

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Re: Re:

Post by oberdada » Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:28 pm

PhineasFreak wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:30 am
sounds complex to do for multiple different pitch voltages - unless you have a digital module like mi's marbles that has the ability to record a sequence then cv the degree to which it ignore note on the recorded scale - to achieve that indiscrte patched modules must quite a feat...
I suppose so. But here's an idea. Take a voltage slicer, a module that outputs to one of several gate outputs when the input is in a certain voltage range. Each gate output goes into a leaky integrator, which represents the bins of a histogram. Find the bins with lowest voltage and adapt the probability so that the corresponding values are more likely to be generated.

It can't be too hard if you allow yourself to use programmable modules.

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by cptnal » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:59 am

Dinko Klobocar describes an interesting technique for segregating voltages by range here:



The interesting part is how he mixes the gate outputs from the comparators to get a none/one/both output.

I'm also reminded of this technique described by pelsea in his book. Use a channel of a two-row sequencer to control its own clock speed, and send the other to a sample and hold. The clock speed row controls the probability that its stage will be sampled.

Not sure I understand the conversation fully, but maybe these techniques would be useful in the context of what's being discussed. If not it's worthwhile keeping them in circulation.
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by oberdada » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:42 pm

cptnal wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:59 am
I'm also reminded of this technique described by pelsea in his book. Use a channel of a two-row sequencer to control its own clock speed, and send the other to a sample and hold. The clock speed row controls the probability that its stage will be sampled.
That's an interesting technique. I suppose the S/H runs on its own rate independently from the sequencer.

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by cptnal » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:18 pm

oberdada wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:42 pm
cptnal wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:59 am
I'm also reminded of this technique described by pelsea in his book. Use a channel of a two-row sequencer to control its own clock speed, and send the other to a sample and hold. The clock speed row controls the probability that its stage will be sampled.
That's an interesting technique. I suppose the S/H runs on its own rate independently from the sequencer.
Indeed. :tu:
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by cptnal » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:30 pm

Actually, while I'm here let me post this. I came across it on matrixsynth.com, but haven't tried it out yet. Seems pretty straightforward - it's for the Arp 2600, but it all looks like standard functions.



Edit: Referenced here by the original author: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=226150
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by PhineasFreak » Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:49 pm

every time i think i'm gonna need to buy more/new modules i read a post in this thread and realise i can solve my problem with what i have - theres very definitely a certain minimum toolkit which once you have it covered you can p much achieve any task if you just apply the right logic

i love this so much :)

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by tardishead » Sat Jan 25, 2020 4:02 pm

PhineasFreak wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:49 pm
every time i think i'm gonna need to buy more/new modules i read a post in this thread and realise i can solve my problem with what i have - theres very definitely a certain minimum toolkit which once you have it covered you can p much achieve any task if you just apply the right logic

i love this so much :)
Absolutely the only thing is the Euro guys have got modules that do the same as a whole cabinet of my toolkit modules in one go. :bang:
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by PhineasFreak » Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:03 pm

this is where ladik is your friend in euro - i cant help but wonder if it would be possible to convert his modules to other formats easily...

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by dooj88 » Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:46 pm

bumping some of my older thread email notifications before i delete them. not getting the new thread update notification for some of the older topics

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by BenA718 » Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:03 pm

I made this patch based on the LFO section of Patch & Tweak. It creates a rather swirly chord that has notes pulsing and fading in and out; sounds rather cool!

It uses 4 VCOs (SE Quadnic) tuned to a chord and feeding into a VCA. I take 3 trangle LFOs from the Modbox on 3 different phases and patch them into Vector Space and then take 4 of the outputs and plug them into a Quad VCA; this opens and closes the VCAs at different times, rates and phase. The mix out from the Quad VCA goes into a Doepfer SEM filter. Another output from the Vector Space goes into the CV input on the filter. The LPF output goes through a strymon AA.1 and BOSS RE-20 Space Echo, then into the Sound Stage. There is an aux send on my mixing desk that also has a BOSS RV-500 added.

Sounds like this:

Looks like this:
Vector Drone.png
Vector Drone.png (53.84 KiB) Viewed 355 times
http://editor.patchandtweak.com/patch/244

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by electricanada » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:46 pm

BenA718 wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:03 pm
I made this patch based on the LFO section of Patch & Tweak. It creates a rather swirly chord that has notes pulsing and fading in and out; sounds rather cool!

It uses 4 VCOs (SE Quadnic) tuned to a chord and feeding into a VCA. I take 3 trangle LFOs from the Modbox on 3 different phases and patch them into Vector Space and then take 4 of the outputs and plug them into a Quad VCA; this opens and closes the VCAs at different times, rates and phase. The mix out from the Quad VCA goes into a Doepfer SEM filter. Another output from the Vector Space goes into the CV input on the filter. The LPF output goes through a strymon AA.1 and BOSS RE-20 Space Echo, then into the Sound Stage. There is an aux send on my mixing desk that also has a BOSS RV-500 added.

Sounds like this:

Looks like this:Vector Drone.png

http://editor.patchandtweak.com/patch/244
Nice one. What’s making the melody?
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by cptnal » Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:01 pm

Here's something I thought might be interesting to present as a work in progress, rather than hang around waiting for a "finished" piece. I've been working on it the last few days and I think it has some mileage. It's inspired by the recent chat around the Doepfer A152 which, like the OP of that thread, I'm still a bit bewildered by (as an interested observer, not an owner). So I thought I'd see what I could put together with a load of track and holds, courtesy of my new ADDAC215s, and the WMD Sequantial Switch Matrix, which is one I do own but haven't quite got my head around the possibilities of (probably because they're so vast).

Here's the control part. In an attempt to keep it simple I'll assume a little knowledge of the modules involved. We have four LFOs into the switch, and four outputs going to track and holds. Each of the switches' 16 matrices is randomised and four of the sixteen gate outputs from the expander trigger the track and holds. The WMD's matrix is chosen by another LFO/trigger pair (Maths in this iteration) going to a sample and hold and into the switch CV address input.

We end up with a bunch of possible modulation outputs (white boxes in the picture). Some of these are used in the control part itself to modulate LFO periods. The rest go off to parameters of the voices. The envelope for each voice shares a trigger with one of the track and holds.

In this first pass I've been randomly assigning modulations, but with a bit more thought about how the track and holds are behaving it could develop into something quite satisfyingly unified. In the meantime I'm just enjoying the chaos.


SwitchMatrix.JPG
SwitchMatrix.JPG (138.65 KiB) Viewed 301 times
Next steps are to strip it back a bit. Try with two voices rather than four. Try as a drone to eliminate pitch complexities. Perhaps separate the track and hold triggers from the voices' envelope triggers. Think about the hold stage of the track and holds, describe the effect and decide where's the best place in the patch to employ it.

P.S. I find it helps to think of the WMD as a Sequential Matrix Switch, rather than a Sequential Switch Matrix. And not necessarily sequential either, come to think of it.
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by pugix » Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:21 pm

That sounds very harmonious, and not too chaotic.

I was considering a pair of ADDAC215s, but then I realized I already had enough sample & holds. :cloud:
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by PhineasFreak » Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:44 pm

ok, i give in - why s&h/t&h? i see em used in damn near every patch in this thread and i dont get why - are they anything different to any other shaped modulation source?

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by electricanada » Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:58 pm

cptnal wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:01 pm
Here's something I thought might be interesting to present as a work in progress, rather than hang around waiting for a "finished" piece. I've been working on it the last few days and I think it has some mileage. It's inspired by the recent chat around the Doepfer A152 which, like the OP of that thread, I'm still a bit bewildered by (as an interested observer, not an owner). So I thought I'd see what I could put together with a load of track and holds, courtesy of my new ADDAC215s, and the WMD Sequantial Switch Matrix, which is one I do own but haven't quite got my head around the possibilities of (probably because they're so vast).

Here's the control part. In an attempt to keep it simple I'll assume a little knowledge of the modules involved. We have four LFOs into the switch, and four outputs going to track and holds. Each of the switches' 16 matrices is randomised and four of the sixteen gate outputs from the expander trigger the track and holds. The WMD's matrix is chosen by another LFO/trigger pair (Maths in this iteration) going to a sample and hold and into the switch CV address input.

We end up with a bunch of possible modulation outputs (white boxes in the picture). Some of these are used in the control part itself to modulate LFO periods. The rest go off to parameters of the voices. The envelope for each voice shares a trigger with one of the track and holds.

In this first pass I've been randomly assigning modulations, but with a bit more thought about how the track and holds are behaving it could develop into something quite satisfyingly unified. In the meantime I'm just enjoying the chaos.



SwitchMatrix.JPG

Next steps are to strip it back a bit. Try with two voices rather than four. Try as a drone to eliminate pitch complexities. Perhaps separate the track and hold triggers from the voices' envelope triggers. Think about the hold stage of the track and holds, describe the effect and decide where's the best place in the patch to employ it.

P.S. I find it helps to think of the WMD as a Sequential Matrix Switch, rather than a Sequential Switch Matrix. And not necessarily sequential either, come to think of it.
Interesting. I don’t think the 152 could do that though. It’s a 1-to-8 T&H. You’d need more of them. (I could be wrong.)
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by cptnal » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:02 am

Indeed, the A152 has 8 track and holds, but I'm working with what I have, and it's more of a jumping off point than a faithful reproduction. The good thing (sorry, one of the good things) about the ADDAC215 is the "bonus" outputs, which make it more than just two sample/track and holds. It's actually much more interesting and powerful than I'd expected.

In an attempt to answer PhineasFreak, the way I think of sample and holds is not so much as modulation sources that replace your hand going wiggle-wiggle-wiggle. Rather they represent different possible values you could have set the knobs to in the first place. In other words you're not modulating a sound you've already chosen - you're letting the system choose the sound. Obviously within reason - you don't want your patch to be a complete riot. Track and hold I'm just getting started with - I've only been at this two-and-a-half years. :goo: :goo: ...

After posting last night I landed on a mix I found a lot more pleasing, and I tweaked the digital-formanty-kinda-voice so that the phasing and panning was more subtle. This iteration may end up a "finished" piece after all...
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by Paranormal Patroler » Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:05 am

pugix wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:21 pm
That sounds very harmonious, and not too chaotic.

I was considering a pair of ADDAC215s, but then I realized I already had enough sample & holds. :cloud:
Allow me to point out that the ADDAC215 is far more than a pair of S&Hs. It was meant to make the Rate-of-Change patch a breeze (which it does and then some).
The ADDAC215 has two S&H/T&Hs, slew, a switch between the two sections to act as a flip-flop, and a bunch of functions at the output to calculate the addition/subtraction etc of the two outputs. That's a lot of utility in 6hp, and some very clever normalizations. It's a very useful module for generative patches and more.

Disclaimer: I worked on this design with ADDAC System.
PhineasFreak wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:44 pm
ok, i give in - why s&h/t&h? i see em used in damn near every patch in this thread and i dont get why - are they anything different to any other shaped modulation source?
If I had to put it in the simplest or most abstract terms possible, I'd say that S&H/T&Hs are the memory part of these patches. In a generative patch you want things that have happened to influence things that will happen. In order to do that you need a type of memory to recall the "what happened" and repurpose it for future use. That's where S&H come in: they sample a value of something at some point in time, to be later used at a point in time in the future.

That allows a lot of things to take place, amongst which some self reference or semblance of repetition, which ties up various aspects of these patches together, and gives some cohesion. The difference between chaos and randomness. Depends on the patch of course.

Hope that helped!
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