Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

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cptnal
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by cptnal » Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:10 am

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:05 am
Disclaimer: I worked on this design with ADDAC System.
Allow me to thank you personally. It's a great module! :guinness:
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by oberdada » Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:53 am

PhineasFreak wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:44 pm
ok, i give in - why s&h/t&h? i see em used in damn near every patch in this thread and i dont get why - are they anything different to any other shaped modulation source?
If you don't have a sequencer or other source of constant voltages a S/H is an easy way to take a changing signal and keep it steady for a while. I think it's for people who can't stand music made entirely out of glissandi. And they are a convenient way to slow down fast signals. Use it to sample an audio oscillator at a rate unrelated to its frequency and it becomes a random generator. Same reasoning applies to shift registers.

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by PhineasFreak » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:48 pm

oberdada wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:53 am
If you don't have a sequencer or other source of constant voltages a S/H is an easy way to take a changing signal and keep it steady for a while. I think it's for people who can't stand music made entirely out of glissandi. And they are a convenient way to slow down fast signals. Use it to sample an audio oscillator at a rate unrelated to its frequency and it becomes a random generator. Same reasoning applies to shift registers.
why would i not just use thigs like omparators combined with other switches and bits of logic to produce gates and steady 'pich'/modulation voltages? that gives a very controllable sequencer like output but still able to evolve/be part of a greater generative patch
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:05 am
PhineasFreak wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:44 pm
ok, i give in - why s&h/t&h? i see em used in damn near every patch in this thread and i dont get why - are they anything different to any other shaped modulation source?
If I had to put it in the simplest or most abstract terms possible, I'd say that S&H/T&Hs are the memory part of these patches. In a generative patch you want things that have happened to influence things that will happen. In order to do that you need a type of memory to recall the "what happened" and repurpose it for future use. That's where S&H come in: they sample a value of something at some point in time, to be later used at a point in time in the future.

That allows a lot of things to take place, amongst which some self reference or semblance of repetition, which ties up various aspects of these patches together, and gives some cohesion. The difference between chaos and randomness. Depends on the patch of course.

Hope that helped!
i'm still lost :<

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by electricanada » Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:18 pm

PhineasFreak wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:48 pm
oberdada wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:53 am
If you don't have a sequencer or other source of constant voltages a S/H is an easy way to take a changing signal and keep it steady for a while. I think it's for people who can't stand music made entirely out of glissandi. And they are a convenient way to slow down fast signals. Use it to sample an audio oscillator at a rate unrelated to its frequency and it becomes a random generator. Same reasoning applies to shift registers.
why would i not just use thigs like omparators combined with other switches and bits of logic to produce gates and steady 'pich'/modulation voltages? that gives a very controllable sequencer like output but still able to evolve/be part of a greater generative patch
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:05 am
PhineasFreak wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:44 pm
ok, i give in - why s&h/t&h? i see em used in damn near every patch in this thread and i dont get why - are they anything different to any other shaped modulation source?
If I had to put it in the simplest or most abstract terms possible, I'd say that S&H/T&Hs are the memory part of these patches. In a generative patch you want things that have happened to influence things that will happen. In order to do that you need a type of memory to recall the "what happened" and repurpose it for future use. That's where S&H come in: they sample a value of something at some point in time, to be later used at a point in time in the future.

That allows a lot of things to take place, amongst which some self reference or semblance of repetition, which ties up various aspects of these patches together, and gives some cohesion. The difference between chaos and randomness. Depends on the patch of course.

Hope that helped!
i'm still lost :<
S&H a sequencer’ s output using a different gate pattern - new melody from the old sequence. Super useful trick. S&H an LFO output = stepped melody from a smooth cv.
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by oberdada » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:42 am

PhineasFreak wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:48 pm
why would i not just use thigs like omparators combined with other switches and bits of logic to produce gates and steady 'pich'/modulation voltages? that gives a very controllable sequencer like output but still able to evolve/be part of a greater generative patch
That's a good patch idea if you have a few comparators or switches etc. But I think the essence of self generating techniques is this balancing between the unforeseen, complex and uncontrollable on the one hand, and the deliberate shaping and control of the sound on the other.

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by tardishead » Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:40 pm

Can anybody recommend any other generative "engines". Krell is the obvious and is a rabbit hole of endless potential, tried Quantussy which is great, splitting LFOS and other modulation CVs with comparators and switches etc, love Allen Strange exercises - haven't tried Richard's Magic Wand technique which he mentioned earlier in the thread - I've been meaning to do that one. I like to find more musical applications for these techniques. Combining these with Rate Of Change patches really opens things up - wasn't aware of that one until the Captain recommended it to me. I just wondered if there were any more "engines" out there to study/look into?
You can never have enough Sample/Holds...........

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by cptnal » Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:27 pm

Two others off the top of my head:

Dream Machine, also from Strange. Sequencer mixed with random.

Entropical Paradise, Douglas Leedy. Also described in Strange, and in our own pelsea's book. Two sequences modulating each other.

I'm deliberately not describing them in detail so's not to deprive you of the fun of searching them out. :cloud:
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by Paranormal Patroler » Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:04 pm

cptnal wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:27 pm

I'm deliberately not describing them in detail so's not to deprive you of the fun of searching them out. :cloud:
Maybe it's high time I added my Stoic patch in these lists? It's the most minimalist of all generative patches I've come up with. I think I need to post a video example, this is the proper company for it :hihi: .
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by cptnal » Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:28 pm

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:04 pm
cptnal wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:27 pm

I'm deliberately not describing them in detail so's not to deprive you of the fun of searching them out. :cloud:
Maybe it's high time I added my Stoic patch in these lists? It's the most minimalist of all generative patches I've come up with. I think I need to post a video example, this is the proper company for it :hihi: .
Even the name has me intrigued. Breath appropriately bated... :hyper:
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by tardishead » Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:01 pm

cptnal wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:27 pm
Two others off the top of my head:

Dream Machine, also from Strange. Sequencer mixed with random.

Entropical Paradise, Douglas Leedy. Also described in Strange, and in our own pelsea's book. Two sequences modulating each other.

I'm deliberately not describing them in detail so's not to deprive you of the fun of searching them out. :cloud:
Yeh those 2 pieces and the whole Strange book got me hooked on generative to begin with. I'm hungry for more
Please bring the Stoic

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by BenA718 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:09 pm

electricanada wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:46 pm
BenA718 wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:03 pm
I made this patch based on the LFO section of Patch & Tweak. It creates a rather swirly chord that has notes pulsing and fading in and out; sounds rather cool!

It uses 4 VCOs (SE Quadnic) tuned to a chord and feeding into a VCA. I take 3 trangle LFOs from the Modbox on 3 different phases and patch them into Vector Space and then take 4 of the outputs and plug them into a Quad VCA; this opens and closes the VCAs at different times, rates and phase. The mix out from the Quad VCA goes into a Doepfer SEM filter. Another output from the Vector Space goes into the CV input on the filter. The LPF output goes through a strymon AA.1 and BOSS RE-20 Space Echo, then into the Sound Stage. There is an aux send on my mixing desk that also has a BOSS RV-500 added.

Sounds like this:

Looks like this:Vector Drone.png

http://editor.patchandtweak.com/patch/244
Nice one. What’s making the melody?
The melodic synth is a Yamaha TX7 into a TC Electronic MIMIQ and BOSS rV-500.

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Post by pugix » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:10 pm

I'm still doing quantussy cells. Here, I enhanced each cell with an added envelope generator that is triggered by the LFO and CV'd by the same S&H that controls the LFO frequency (the CV has to be inverted into the EG, since higher voltage means slower fall rate). I added a Vult Freak filter recently; here it is in Resonant Comb filter mode (I should add that to the post). The Tesseract Modular 8X8 Buffered Matrix lets me try out different permutations of the quantussy cells without having to repatch.

https://pugix.com/synth/automatic-freak/
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Re:

Post by cptnal » Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:51 pm

pugix wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:10 pm
I'm still doing quantussy cells. Here, I enhanced each cell with an added envelope generator that is triggered by the LFO and CV'd by the same S&H that controls the LFO frequency (the CV has to be inverted into the EG, since higher voltage means slower fall rate). I added a Vult Freak filter recently; here it is in Resonant Comb filter mode (I should add that to the post). The Tesseract Modular 8X8 Buffered Matrix lets me try out different permutations of the quantussy cells without having to repatch.

https://pugix.com/synth/automatic-freak/
Scared the cats, which is the acid test of a good patch. :tu:
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Re:

Post by electricanada » Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:50 pm

pugix wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:10 pm
I'm still doing quantussy cells. Here, I enhanced each cell with an added envelope generator that is triggered by the LFO and CV'd by the same S&H that controls the LFO frequency (the CV has to be inverted into the EG, since higher voltage means slower fall rate). I added a Vult Freak filter recently; here it is in Resonant Comb filter mode (I should add that to the post). The Tesseract Modular 8X8 Buffered Matrix lets me try out different permutations of the quantussy cells without having to repatch.

https://pugix.com/synth/automatic-freak/
Nice. I love when they seem alive.
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by pugix » Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:26 pm

Thanks for the comments. Yeah, still doing the Quantussy Cells thing.

This time I got the idea to use Quantussy cells (four in a ring) as an oscillator directly.

https://pugix.com/synth/quartussy-as-vco/
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by cptnal » Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:13 am

pugix wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:26 pm
Thanks for the comments. Yeah, still doing the Quantussy Cells thing.

This time I got the idea to use Quantussy cells (four in a ring) as an oscillator directly.

https://pugix.com/synth/quartussy-as-vco/
I wondered about audio rate stuff when you first started talking about Quantussy cells since the Cocoquantus is capable of making its own sound, but the idea kinda fell by the wayside. So it's interesting to hear it done. Sounds rather magical.

By-the-by, based on your video the YouTube algorithms reckon I'd also be interested in a demo of a Tesla coil and Chopin's Nocturnes. Go figure!
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by PhineasFreak » Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:17 am

i have noticed that when i get a sufficiently complex subsystem built using the boolean logics and similar mathematically stuffs i get a kind of buffering object self created - any other object in the system starting to runaway into audio rate oscillation or to get caught in a stable state that wont do anything interesting and the clump of logics etc seems to return it to a continuous generative activity - is there any name for this berhaviour or more i can read into it by any particular person?

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by cptnal » Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:36 am

PhineasFreak wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:17 am
i have noticed that when i get a sufficiently complex subsystem built using the boolean logics and similar mathematically stuffs i get a kind of buffering object self created - any other object in the system starting to runaway into audio rate oscillation or to get caught in a stable state that wont do anything interesting and the clump of logics etc seems to return it to a continuous generative activity - is there any name for this berhaviour or more i can read into it by any particular person?
Are you drunk, sir? :hmm:
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by PhineasFreak » Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:42 am

cptnal wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:36 am
PhineasFreak wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:17 am
i have noticed that when i get a sufficiently complex subsystem built using the boolean logics and similar mathematically stuffs i get a kind of buffering object self created - any other object in the system starting to runaway into audio rate oscillation or to get caught in a stable state that wont do anything interesting and the clump of logics etc seems to return it to a continuous generative activity - is there any name for this berhaviour or more i can read into it by any particular person?
Are you drunk, sir? :hmm:
ok, i explain differently:

i have a whole bunch of 4hp ladik and klavis and other logic/mathematical/geometrical/etc modules - these tend to end up patched in a super complex set of feedback loops and so any other things connected, either sequencers, clocks, lfos etcthat would otherwise tend when in agenerative patch to go wildly out of control at times or die down and cease to become active, the feedback mess of logics etc acts as a sort of cv/clock buffer and keeps it all balanced

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by cptnal » Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:02 am

PhineasFreak wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:42 am
cptnal wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:36 am
PhineasFreak wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:17 am
i have noticed that when i get a sufficiently complex subsystem built using the boolean logics and similar mathematically stuffs i get a kind of buffering object self created - any other object in the system starting to runaway into audio rate oscillation or to get caught in a stable state that wont do anything interesting and the clump of logics etc seems to return it to a continuous generative activity - is there any name for this berhaviour or more i can read into it by any particular person?
Are you drunk, sir? :hmm:
ok, i explain differently:

i have a whole bunch of 4hp ladik and klavis and other logic/mathematical/geometrical/etc modules - these tend to end up patched in a super complex set of feedback loops and so any other things connected, either sequencers, clocks, lfos etcthat would otherwise tend when in agenerative patch to go wildly out of control at times or die down and cease to become active, the feedback mess of logics etc acts as a sort of cv/clock buffer and keeps it all balanced
I think it's just down to system design. If it's a mess of feedback then you don't know whether there's a condition where every parameter lands in a state where it can't do anything at the same time. I was experimenting with multiple track and holds for a while, and it was easy to get into a state where they were all holding, so the next one had nothing to track, and so on in a big self-locking circle. Nothing for it but to go back to the drawing board and redesign it so that doesn't happen.
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by PhineasFreak » Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:05 am

cptnal wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:02 am
PhineasFreak wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:42 am
cptnal wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:36 am
PhineasFreak wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:17 am
i have noticed that when i get a sufficiently complex subsystem built using the boolean logics and similar mathematically stuffs i get a kind of buffering object self created - any other object in the system starting to runaway into audio rate oscillation or to get caught in a stable state that wont do anything interesting and the clump of logics etc seems to return it to a continuous generative activity - is there any name for this berhaviour or more i can read into it by any particular person?
Are you drunk, sir? :hmm:
ok, i explain differently:

i have a whole bunch of 4hp ladik and klavis and other logic/mathematical/geometrical/etc modules - these tend to end up patched in a super complex set of feedback loops and so any other things connected, either sequencers, clocks, lfos etcthat would otherwise tend when in agenerative patch to go wildly out of control at times or die down and cease to become active, the feedback mess of logics etc acts as a sort of cv/clock buffer and keeps it all balanced
I think it's just down to system design. If it's a mess of feedback then you don't know whether there's a condition where every parameter lands in a state where it can't do anything at the same time. I was experimenting with multiple track and holds for a while, and it was easy to get into a state where they were all holding, so the next one had nothing to track, and so on in a big self-locking circle. Nothing for it but to go back to the drawing board and redesign it so that doesn't happen.
youre completely misunderstanding - i'm talking about a subsyste sufficiently comple xthat it DOESNT lock - it prevents lock or wild changes too - it maintains stability - i was hoping ther might be a name for this i could look up and read further into

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by Severed head » Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:33 am

I would say the idea of walking away is were the adversity is coming in.

My tip would be
Set up what your presuming to be a generative patch. And listen and watch(you flashing light for signals of what yo hear ding). Then you see were thing are becoming repetitive, more or less musical (a preference per composition I’d assume), to static or to busy, what you like and don’t and that’ll give you more insight on what you need to add to the patch to create what would make it a more desired sound.

I have noticed that even with a generative patch there is so much composing involved in the arrangements of generative phrases that although to the average listener or non modular user, a generative patch may sound completely random and growing/decay out of/into nothing/something. But the best generative patches I’ve heard all come from somewhere and go somewhere rather than just what is essentially a field recording or a wild modular animal in its natural electrical habitat creating what could very well go on forever. Which isn’t essentially a bad thing just a different style of generations.

I personally love the later that are so free that you could patch it up and leave it playing for 3days will psyching out deep. And no matter when you come in or leave you can always here the piece is the same just ever so different that you know you never hear the little unique subtleties again.

But when it come to crafting a generation for passing on to the ears of others that will be more of the traditional listening (album/song) experience. I prefer the generation that starts as a seed and blooms into an explosion of modularness and goes through all the ebbs and flows and leaves you with the feeling of a cantata(Or rebirth/death)
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by PhineasFreak » Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:45 am

i'll try one more time:

I'M NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT THIS BEHAVIOUR

is there a name for it or someone who particularly might be know for using it or working with it that i could read up on it more?

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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by Pelsea » Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:39 pm

PhineasFreak wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:45 am
i'll try one more time:

I'M NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT THIS BEHAVIOUR

is there a name for it or someone who particularly might be know for using it or working with it that i could read up on it more?
That's a chaotic system. I use them a lot in my music, and one day I'll get around to cleaning up my notes and putting out another book. Meanwhile, Google is your friend. My favorite (non-math) introduction to chaos in general is Chaos: Making a New Science by James Gleick. Chaotic systems are identified by:
  • Feedback--The output is brought back to the input in some way. Usually the feedback proceeds in steps, so chaotic systems are often called iterative feedback systems.
  • Wildly variable output with small changes of initial conditions-- Chaotic systems are deterministic, so a given set of input parameters will always evolve the same way, but a tiny difference in a parameter can produce large differences later on.
  • Attractors-- If you plot the output of a chaotic system, you often see clusters of results that are near but not equal to a certain value (or curve). Thus the graph of the Lorenz equation takes on the shape of a bent fuzzy figure eight. This is only the aggregate of output values-- If you follow the output closely, values will dance around the attractor and occasionally leap to another loop of the attractor.
There are several modules out there that use chaotic systems to generate CVs. Sloths is my favorite.
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Re: Self generating patches....tips and ideas ?

Post by PhineasFreak » Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:52 pm

Pelsea wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:39 pm
PhineasFreak wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:45 am
i'll try one more time:

I'M NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT THIS BEHAVIOUR

is there a name for it or someone who particularly might be know for using it or working with it that i could read up on it more?
That's a chaotic system. I use them a lot in my music, and one day I'll get around to cleaning up my notes and putting out another book. Meanwhile, Google is your friend. My favorite (non-math) introduction to chaos in general is Chaos: Making a New Science by James Gleick. Chaotic systems are identified by:
  • Feedback--The output is brought back to the input in some way. Usually the feedback proceeds in steps, so chaotic systems are often called iterative feedback systems.
  • Wildly variable output with small changes of initial conditions-- Chaotic systems are deterministic, so a given set of input parameters will always evolve the same way, but a tiny difference in a parameter can produce large differences later on.
  • Attractors-- If you plot the output of a chaotic system, you often see clusters of results that are near but not equal to a certain value (or curve). Thus the graph of the Lorenz equation takes on the shape of a bent fuzzy figure eight. This is only the aggregate of output values-- If you follow the output closely, values will dance around the attractor and occasionally leap to another loop of the attractor.
There are several modules out there that use chaotic systems to generate CVs. Sloths is my favorite.
thankyou! : )

ive actually heard of James Gleick wrt chaos but hadnt realised i was building a chaotic system when using stuff that wasnt specifically 'chaos' modules. iteratve feedback system is a term that makes complete sense for what i'm encountering, interestingly the chaotic classic idea of a tiny change making massive changes far down the line doesnt seem to be occurrring so obviously - y systems seem to be self stabilising rather than the opposite - maybe that means i have an attractor of somesort built qquite often.

when i finally get a qu-bit bloom as the core sequencer to replace the turing machine style MI Marbles it'll be interesting to see what occcurs.

time to do osme deeper reading...

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