DAY 1: 4 Voice Euclidean Rhythm Generator & MIDI I/O

New Interfaces for Analog Synthesizers.

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Summa
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Post by Summa » Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:40 pm

It might also be worth mentioning that you can alter some functions on the 402 and I guess adjusting the fills for that individual channel just slightly could sound like a delayed gate/trig.

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Post by fourhexagons » Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:45 pm

Summa wrote:https://www.modulargrid.net/e/animodule-gate-mod looks like it might be right up your alley ;)
Oh man, this looks like it might be just the thing. I had done some preliminary research and had only found SSF's Propagate, which looks awesome, but takes up 14hp as compared with two Gate_mod's @ just 8hp total. Although Propagate can do lots more with the Sum out, VCO feature, etc...

Thanks again, Summa. This has been super-helpful. :mrgreen:

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Post by Multi Grooves » Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:54 pm

slew?

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Post by Multi Grooves » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:00 pm

Just got the 402. It is lovely, the screen is super sharp though it is a little cramped for my phatt fingers however I totally missed the most important thing before buying:

**EDIT**I made an error: this does rotate.
Last edited by Multi Grooves on Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Multi Grooves » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:01 pm

error post, so here's a picture of a cat:

Image
Last edited by Multi Grooves on Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Multi Grooves » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:12 pm

error post. Moar catz:

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Post by fourhexagons » Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:24 pm

I'm totally with you on the rotate, Multi Grooves. I too had missed that when I got the 402. The whole point with euclidean rhythms is to rotate them, imho. Case in point, the African Bell pattern, or Steve Reich's Clapping Music.

Image

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Well, the 402 has a skip step function that sort of works in this way, but it's a backwards sort of approach. That is, if you hit skip 1 step, then you essentially have a rotated shape. It just rotated counterclockwise by 1 step. Which is a nice direction to rotate, making the part earlier in time, just like the bottom voice in Clapping Music.

But the thing is that with the 402's current functionality, you have to start it not rotated and then hit skip to have it skip. It would be ideal to be able to compose your parts with rotations set to where you want them without having to manually skip to rotate. Plus the option of rotating clockwise or counterclockwise would be ideal and to have CV control over the function is the ultimate.

Thoughts?

And yeah, catz.

Image
Last edited by fourhexagons on Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Multi Grooves » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:03 pm

Any other owners/potential buyers interested in putting this request forward?
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Post by Multi Grooves » Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:45 am

fourhexagons wrote:
Summa wrote:https://www.modulargrid.net/e/animodule-gate-mod looks like it might be right up your alley ;)
Oh man, this looks like it might be just the thing. I had done some preliminary research and had only found SSF's Propagate, which looks awesome, but takes up 14hp as compared with two Gate_mod's @ just 8hp total. Although Propagate can do lots more with the Sum out, VCO feature, etc...

Thanks again, Summa. This has been super-helpful. :mrgreen:
I had a good look at the SSF and it look good esp as it is 4channel which fit the 402 like a glove. Another plus is it would give microtiming BUT what about midi signals? I've got an old Emu expanded with a world sounds chip that I was hoping to spring into life...with the current set up everything starts on the one. It's madness to have to consider some kind of delay unit for the midi interface.

I guess this needs a poll...
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Post by monads » Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:38 am

Didn't you notice the other thread???? Good luck!!!

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Post by Multi Grooves » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:30 pm

I need to amend my words: This box does have a skip function, it's uni-directional.

Currently when you hit skip it does just that. But it is tricky* to tell exactly where it has skipped especially if there are quite a few steps and hits within that channel's set up. Higher tempos make it tougher still. This is compounded by the the graphics which, still represents the hits as starting from the first beat.

What I'd love this thing to do would be to represent the the pattern shift graphically. That'd be like turning the lights on. Aside from that it is growing massively.

:nana: :nana:



*other owners may wanna chime in here: is your experience different?
Last edited by Multi Grooves on Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Multi Grooves » Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:29 pm

fourhexagons wrote:I'm totally with you on the rotate, Multi Grooves. I too had missed that when I got the 402. The whole point with euclidean rhythms is to rotate them, imho. Case in point, the or Steve Reich's Clapping Music.

Well, the 402 has a skip step function that sort of works in this way, but it's a backwards sort of approach. That is, if you hit skip 1 step, then you essentially have a rotated shape. It just rotated counterclockwise by 1 step. Which is a nice direction to rotate, making the part earlier in time, just like the bottom voice in Clapping Music.

But the thing is that with the 402's current functionality, you have to start it not rotated and then hit skip to have it skip. It would be ideal to be able to compose your parts with rotations set to where you want them without having to manually skip to rotate. Plus the option of rotating clockwise or counterclockwise would be ideal and to have CV control over the function is the ultimate.

Thoughts?

And yeah, catz.


Yeah, I've had less time with it than you though it's been getting clearer....In an ideal world you'd have a knob that you could rotate in either direction allowing you to move patterns forwards and backwards in time at the users will.
But even with the current set up I think a full visual/graphic representation of what was happening in terms of hitting skip/reset would unleash the kraken within rather that it suggesting it's always starting at beat 1...

But with each passing wiggle I'm loving this more and more. It's made me consider getting a Mutant module. :help:

What do you think cat?

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Post by fourhexagons » Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:16 pm

So in other words the changes we are proposing are as such:
• Change skip to rotate 1 deg counter-clockwise (or allow it to be changed in settings)
• Or allow each channel's steps knob (or fills knob if steps won't work, or at the very least, the master swing/assign knob) to be assigned so as to function as a rotate (both/either would be handy since sometimes you want to phase it just once and not be worried that you might overshoot it on the dial, and sometimes you want to dial it in and not click multiple times.) It would be best to not have to dive into the settings to be able to re-assign the steps/fills knobs. The best would be a long press on a button, similar to how Mutable's Olivier handles such hidden modes.
• However the rotate is achieved, it must show the rotated pattern on the display (move the blocks to the left)
• Allow the rotation state to be saved in presets (so that it doesn't always need to start on the 1 of the pattern)
• Make the rotation function CV-able via the reset CV-in (or even better allow the fills CV-ins to act as rotate CV-ins for each channel; maybe a neg voltage rotates counter clockwise, positive rotates clockwise?)
Last edited by fourhexagons on Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Multi Grooves » Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:45 am

The skip works but I'm not 100% which direction the pattern moves (I guess one step backwards). The main thing has to be graphical representation of the new pattern once you've hit skip and/or reset. Once we have this dialing the exact rotation you want is easy.

Keep the step/fill knob* assignments as they are- they make sense.

I can't see how you'd use the swing assign knob to rotate as there's no obvious way to assign it to a particular channel (not quickly or without awkward button pushes).

Not sure I see the benefit of it not starting on the first beat...It's got to start somewhere, right? Certainly Pamela's W/O starts with r=0 so the user then inputs the rotation they want. Unless you're asking for the ability to save a pattern (i.e. something containing at least four cv channels of patterns) which it already does.

The last would be cool where you could select the behaviour of the fill CV inputs to alter fills (default) or have them alter rotation via the menu for something a little more random (though this would probably overlap heavily with algorithm already inside).
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Post by fourhexagons » Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:42 pm

Multi Grooves wrote:The skip works but I'm not 100% which direction the pattern moves (I guess one step backwards). The main thing has to be graphical representation of the new pattern once you've hit skip and/or reset. Once we have this dialing the exact rotation you want is easy.
Ah right, it moves 1 step counter-clockwise when skipping a step. Sorry for the mistake. That is, a skip moves the pattern 1 step earlier in time, therefore the pattern must rotate counter-clockwise to be earlier. I'll edit my last post to correct that.
Multi Grooves wrote:Keep the step/fill knob* assignments as they are- they make sense.
Now, this I see my suggestion as a very useful option, musically. To have the *option* of reassigning the steps knobs would give some amazing functionality. That is I could imagine setting my steps into a fixed composition (12's and 16's make a wonderful hemiola) then reassigning the steps knobs to only affect rotation. This is because once I'm in that fixed rhythmic ratio, I don't necessarily need to go and change that ratio, however, I would want to alter the rotation as a very powerful musical gesture. This is what's happening in the musical notation examples I attached. To then have CV control over those parameters would allow for a generative patch to be created that jams out the rotation within a fixed structure.

I propose that this would be available via some menu diving into the settings. It's not a big deal as to how many button presses it takes to set it up as you could just save it as a preset and recall that preset when you want that sort of configuration.
Multi Grooves wrote:I can't see how you'd use the swing assign knob to rotate as there's no obvious way to assign it to a particular channel (not quickly or without awkward button pushes).
What I'm proposing with this alternate approach is to assign the swing/assign knob in just the same way that the user currently designates the knob to be swing or whatever additional function is currently available for it to be assigned to. You know, like this:

Image

I agree that this process is a little clunky within the settings menu, but it's doable if, for example, the user wants to make sure that they have knob and CV control over the rotation of *one particular* pattern. Because at the very least, having rotational control over one voice would be a huge step up from having no rotational control whatsoever (not counting the rotation-result that the skip function currently provides).
Multi Grooves wrote:Not sure I see the benefit of it not starting on the first beat...It's got to start somewhere, right? Certainly Pamela's W/O starts with r=0 so the user then inputs the rotation they want. Unless you're asking for the ability to save a pattern (i.e. something containing at least four cv channels of patterns) which it already does.
Ah, sorry. Semantics. I wasn't clear. What I mean by 'not starting on the first beat' is 'starting on a different rotational point'. It should always start on the left, on the first beat, otherwise it would just be difficult to keep track of. But when a pattern is rotated, it's essentially starting on a 'different beat within that pattern'. But really the word shouldn't be 'beat', it should be 'position'.
Multi Grooves wrote:The last would be cool where you could select the behaviour of the fill CV inputs to alter fills (default) or have them alter rotation via the menu for something a little more random (though this would probably overlap heavily with algorithm already inside).
I heartily agree that CV control over the rotation as an alternate mode to the default of fills would be AMAZING. And of course, it doesn't have to be random. I can see it being very precise this way so as to literally be able to sequence something along the lines of Clapping Music where every 12 cycles, the CV increases or decreases by 1 step so as to phase one part from the other. It would be amazing, sort of like the stuff you can acheive with a trigger delay, but you'd have the option to move it earlier in time, which delay obviously cannot do.

But the thing is, we're here postulating what sort of updates we'd love in a perfect world, but is ADDAC's philosophy open to this sort of thing? I worked with Olivier on Mutable's Rings Beta and it was a pleasure to bounce ideas back and forth. The guy is so creative and open, and his code is open source, but this might not be how ADDAC works and the code/module might not even be able to facilitate such changes.

I guess, all we can do at this point is state what we want and hope for the best.

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Post by Multi Grooves » Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:12 pm

Yup, being able to rotate via the knob feels like it'd get much more use than dialing in step number- which instead could be set via the menu. The best outcome would be to have the option to configure the knob functions.

Euclidean users: How often do you change the number of steps vs rotate, during play?

I imagine the latter.

--------

Fair play on the assignment knob/cv input. :tu:

--------


Indeed. Surely there are other owners/users of this box? Anyone else wanna chime in?



Next question is how do we go about raising these requests with Andre/ADDAC?
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Post by Summa » Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:43 pm

Multi Grooves wrote: Next question is how do we go about raising these requests with Andre/ADDAC?
Just email him, but I would find it highly unlikely that he would implement this in a firmware update real soon (I could of course be wrong) but when visiting the HQ this summer he showed me some really amazing modules due to be released soon, one in particular called 403 that'll work REALLY well together with the 402. :omg:

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Post by fourhexagons » Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:14 pm

Summa wrote:Just email him, but I would find it highly unlikely that he would implement this in a firmware update real soon (I could of course be wrong) but when visiting the HQ this summer he showed me some really amazing modules due to be released soon, one in particular called 403 that'll work REALLY well together with the 402. :omg:
Oh nice, care to tell more about this 403, Summa? A quick search showed nothing.

And as for contacting ADDAC, I have an email thread going with them already, so I can reach out and direct them to this forum thread.

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Post by Multi Grooves » Wed Dec 16, 2015 5:06 am

@Summa

What are your thoughts/feelings on what we've been proposing?

-------------


Given Andre is a lone man business with limited help I think it may be worth prioritising the order in which we put forward these requests rather than a 'glob of stuff', no?
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Post by mbleming » Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:52 am

Hi, is anyone else using the 402b midi i/o expander module? I was hoping to us e this to sync my Octatrack and trigger samples from the patterns running in the 402, but I've had ZERO luck getting this to transmit clock, stop/start messages or triggers. Anyone else using this and might be able to help?? :hmm:

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Post by Multi Grooves » Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:26 am

My modular grid lied about my set up. ...I wasn't able to fit the expander. Unless I missed something there ain't a wealth of info on it. I only plugged it into my machine drum once. It appeared to slave from it. Can't say any more until I get a new case :(
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Post by fourhexagons » Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:46 am

I too am curious about the MIDI expander and want to know exactly the same thing as mbleming.

I was seriously considering ordering it for a while there, but now am hesitating. Not having a manual for the 402 & 402B makes things a bit difficult. I just want some freaking documentation, you know? The way I see it is that if you code something, you've got to tell people how it works if you want them to buy it.

I admit that I'm frustrated and venting a bit, but I really do feel that it would behoove ADDAC to place more importance on manual writing in this case. I understand that it can be difficult to manage lots of parallel projects, but the 402 seems to be this odd module that was created a while ago, given a soft release, and then swept under the rug.

I really do love the potential of the 402 and I sing its praises from time to time. But I digress.

As for the 402B, my understanding is that you have to enter into MIDI bridge mode to make use of the expander. Is this correct?

What I really want is to be able to sync the 402 to MIDI clock when on Euclidean mode. I'd love to also be able to have MIDI control over 'hidden' parameters in Euclidean mode (such as the aforementioned elusive Euclidean rotate!).

But can anyone answer what the 402B actually does?

It sounds like what it does is turn the module into a 5-in, 5-out MIDI to CV and CV to MIDI interface. Which is kinda cool. But 'does it Euclidean'? Meaning, does the MIDI functionality exist only in its own mode, or is it/can it be part of existing modes?

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Addac 402b

Post by mbleming » Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:47 pm

Well, the 402b doesn't appear to do what I thought it would...per Andre, the module does not transmit midi clock. I thought I could go out from the 402, into my OT and the OT would receive clock and transport messages from the 402...this is not the case. I should be able to do the reverse and use the 402B slaved to the OT clock and sync messages, but I've been unable to get this to work either. The 402b does receive midi clock from the OT, but I've been unable to get it to respond to Start/Stop messages...I've got an email in to Andre for additional help so we'll see, but the 402B might be heading back for a refund. I was hoping to slave the OT to the 402 combo via midi and have the patterns coming from the 402 play samples from the OT...sadly I think I'm out of luck here...I'm still not 100% sure what this module is supposed to do...

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Post by fourhexagons » Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:21 pm

Thanks for the update, mbleming. Although I had planned to include the 402b on my recent order with Analogue Haven (got a 207 quantizer), I left it out until I could sort out what exactly it's good for. Shawn there at AH hadn't used it so he couldn't answer any of my questions.

Please do keep the updates coming as you learn more. Definitely appreciate your investigations.

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Re: Addac 402b

Post by adg672 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:52 pm

mbleming wrote:Well, the 402b doesn't appear to do what I thought it would...per Andre, the module does not transmit midi clock. I thought I could go out from the 402, into my OT and the OT would receive clock and transport messages from the 402...this is not the case. I should be able to do the reverse and use the 402B slaved to the OT clock and sync messages, but I've been unable to get this to work either. The 402b does receive midi clock from the OT, but I've been unable to get it to respond to Start/Stop messages...I've got an email in to Andre for additional help so we'll see, but the 402B might be heading back for a refund. I was hoping to slave the OT to the 402 combo via midi and have the patterns coming from the 402 play samples from the OT...sadly I think I'm out of luck here...I'm still not 100% sure what this module is supposed to do...
Did you ever have any luck on this? Exactly what I'm trying to do. Cheers

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