good oscilloscope for vector rescanning?

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vonkhades
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Post by vonkhades » Fri May 19, 2017 6:48 am

dnigrin wrote:A friend recently got me into this vector rescanning stuff while I was over his house, where he's got all these LZX, Brown Shoes Only, etc.. modules.

Now that I'm back home though, where I have none of that (and no Euro stuff period, refuse to start the addiction!), but wondering whether I can use Max and my existing scope (Tektronix 2215, 60 MHz, XY mode, and with Z input).

I noticed earlier in this thread from years ago that i.m.klif was trying stuff, but that there were questions about ramp speed, sync of ramps with video, etc... But that there were interesting "experiments" to try. And then I see that he was apparently successful:

My initial experiments have not been too successful, and I think it's related to my approach to the ramps, their frequencies and sync, etc... So hoping someone's got tips for me!

Fair warning - though I'm quite adept with Max (see my sig and website for several of my creations), I'm a total video noob....
I started experiments last weekend... and for what I've investigated by reading this whole thread (and other Vector Rescanning threads) is that its very important that your Osciloscope has XY mode with Z input and also that the bandwidth is at least 2Mhz-5MHz.

What osciloscope are you using? I'm very lucky since today I'll get a second hand Vectrex to try with it (instead with my Scope which was a total failure).

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dnigrin
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Post by dnigrin » Fri May 19, 2017 8:03 am

Thanks for the reply, but fairly certain my scope is fine for the job - it's a Tektronix 2215, 60 MHz, has XY mode and Z input.
Dan Nigrin - Defective Records
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vonkhades
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Post by vonkhades » Fri May 19, 2017 10:04 am

dnigrin wrote:Thanks for the reply, but fairly certain my scope is fine for the job - it's a Tektronix 2215, 60 MHz, has XY mode and Z input.

O nice.. then what you "think" might be the problem with the ramps? How are you generating them and the Luma (Z channel)? Im just curious and want to get more details from your experience

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vonkhades
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Post by vonkhades » Fri May 19, 2017 10:10 am

Maybe you need to amplify the Z signal to 5v?

Image

from the user manual of the 2215

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dnigrin
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Post by dnigrin » Fri May 19, 2017 12:43 pm

Yes, that was one of the things that I thought I would likely have to do (I currently am just using a video camera output straight into the Z input on the scope).

But I thought that even without an amplified signal, I maybe would see a *faint* image, which I'm not.

I think my main problem is that I am not generating my ramp signals within Max at the right frequencies, and/or that I don't have them sync'd to the video signal that I have routed to the Z input. The Max patch I'm using so far is trivial, it's basically just a phasor~ object which gives a sawtooth wave audio output, and then I use the left and right audio outputs of the computer as inputs into the scope's X and Y inputs.
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Post by vonkhades » Fri May 19, 2017 3:31 pm

Maybe the problem is that your camera signal (Z) is not synced in anyway with the ramps.

AFAIK everything has to be synced somehow, in the LZX system (cadet or expeditionary) it's easy because everything is generated within the same hardware.

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Post by nerdware » Fri May 19, 2017 4:02 pm

Image

This is not mine - I found it somewhere years ago, maybe even in this subforum. I'm just re-sharing it.
https://vimeo.com/user2264453
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dnigrin
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Post by dnigrin » Fri May 19, 2017 4:40 pm

Right, thanks - I remember having seen that image somewhere in my reading as well. That's what I'm asking for help with here - if anyone knows how to use Max to generate the appropriate ramps.
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Post by nerdware » Fri May 19, 2017 5:18 pm

Can Max decode the sync signals from the camera?
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Post by dnigrin » Fri May 19, 2017 5:30 pm

No clue - I know Max very well for audio and MIDI, but have never explored using it with video... That's where I need the help.
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Post by joriswegner » Fri May 19, 2017 5:55 pm

Hello everybody, I just bought a beautiful Tektronix 620 monitor which seems to be very rare here in Germany. I'm trying to achieve rescanning effects with this circuit here, since it was extremely cheap to build:
http://www.qsl.net/w2aew/W2AEW_NTSC_to_scope.pdf
It worked on a Hameg 512, but didn't look that good since the afterglow was quite long.
It doesn't really work on the 620 now, the visible picture has a size of just around 1x1cm, and I turned the monitor's gain as high as I could.
Somebody already had this problem in this thread, and he was told to up the gain with his LZX modules which I don't have. Would it be possible to amplifiy the ramp signals using two of these video amplifiers?

It would be great to get this working, this would mean vector rescanning for under 100€!

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dnigrin
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Post by dnigrin » Sat May 20, 2017 5:56 am

Just to follow up - I found a more appropriate years-old thread for the questions I'm asking, so will continue in that one! A bunch of clues there for me to try: viewtopic.php?t=60631
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Post by destroythings » Sat May 20, 2017 9:54 am

dnigrin

Have you made sure the sound card your using to output the signals has a DC coupled interface?

Also check out Maxwell. Its designed for lasers but could be useful to look at.

http://cycling74.com/projects/maxwell-l ... -generator

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dnigrin
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Post by dnigrin » Sat May 20, 2017 9:59 am

It's not a DC-coupled interface, but according to that other thread, it should still work, albeit with some issues....

Thanks re: Maxwell, will check it!
Dan Nigrin - Defective Records
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Post by destroythings » Sat May 20, 2017 10:10 am


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Post by bumpadelicks » Sun May 21, 2017 3:20 pm

Update.
I was able to score a pristine Leader LBO 51ma monitor with easily
removable grat. Using the LZX Video Cortex and 2 BSO Quad Video Mixers
and help from dnigrin i am stoked to be able ride these green waves.
Thank you Lars, Nick, Cobramatic and dnigrin.
(and the muffwiggler community)
1st screenshot is a portrait of a young H.R. Giger R.I.P.
Image

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Post by nerdware » Sun May 21, 2017 5:43 pm

Hurrah!
https://vimeo.com/user2264453
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dnigrin
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Post by dnigrin » Sun May 21, 2017 6:16 pm

@destroythings - thanks, very familiar with the Expert Sleepers stuff, but appreciate the reminder.

@bumpadelicks - looking *awesome*!! :yay:
Dan Nigrin - Defective Records
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Post by Cobramatic » Mon May 22, 2017 8:25 pm

bumpadelicks wrote:Update.
I was able to score a pristine Leader LBO 51ma monitor with easily
removable grat. Using the LZX Video Cortex and 2 BSO Quad Video Mixers
and help from dnigrin i am stoked to be able ride these green waves.
Thank you Lars, Nick, Cobramatic and dnigrin.
(and the muffwiggler community)
1st screenshot is a portrait of a young H.R. Giger R.I.P.
Image
Excellent - glad I could help.
you are on your way now :sb: :goo: :party:

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What can I do with these?

Post by m1rrag » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:49 pm

I have two vintage vectorscope + waveform monitor pairings.
One is the Leader LV5100D.
The other is Tektronix 1720 + 1730.

I'm hoping to do live rutt-etra scans in the future. Should I keep at least one of these around for that?

On a different subject, how will I get composite video to feed into such a system? (Or, where is a good thread for that?) I'm more of a cautious prospector than a legitimate newb at this point. If I'll need a high end SDI camera with a bunch of converter boxes just to get a camera signal to a component processor, I'd rather just sell the stuff.

Thanks!

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Post by RGB » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:44 am

I am looking to hone in on a Tektronix scope with a removable graticule. I have spoken with a guy who has some experience rebuilding them but he said that they don't have the removable grid. I am wondering if maybe he has just never had the need to do so? I feel like I have heard mention on here about a few of the Tektronix models have the removable graticule but not sure which ones.

Is it safe to say that if the scope has the four screws around the faceplate of the monitor that the grid is removable?

Thanks in advance for any insight!

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Re: What can I do with these?

Post by nerdware » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:49 pm

m1rrag wrote:On a different subject, how will I get composite video to feed into such a system? (Or, where is a good thread for that?) I'm more of a cautious prospector than a legitimate newb at this point. If I'll need a high end SDI camera with a bunch of converter boxes just to get a camera signal to a component processor, I'd rather just sell the stuff.

Thanks!
An old CCTV camera with a composite output will work well. You can find them cheaply on ebay. I like the Panasonic CP series, but make sure you get one that outputs the right format (PAL or NTSC, whichever format you're using).
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Re: What can I do with these?

Post by Jasper » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:55 am

I'm running a (CCTV) Panasonic WV-BP334, think I got 3 for like $30 on Ebay. Does a mighty fine job. Found that draping a towel over the camera and scope helps w/ glare when recording.

Keep in mind they're black & white.

Just recorded this t'night w/ the above mentioned camera and a Tek 465 [video][/video]

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Post by mortal3 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:55 pm

Hi everyone, stoked for all this information here as searching mere Google while muffwiggler was down yielded very minimaI always results in the field of vector rescanning, an art form I have only just found and am utterly captivated by... And indeed, if I can, wish to explore. I live in New Zealand, and am fairly isolated as far as access to some kins if equipment ( oscilloscopes/vector monitors are expensive to ship etc) but recently picked up one of these http://www.buy17.com/JP/ARON/bs601.htm

Could anyone please tell me if I am on the right track with this one, I brought it before I could read any threads on the topic, so a bit of a gamble...

Could I begin my foray with this plus the lzx visual cortex quite simply?.., total no obvious to this.. But I do have quite an established 'audio' eurorack modular, so was hoping to perhaps utilise some of it... I have a lot of reading to do, and all of this video synthesis side of things is totally new, but so enticing!... any help on getting me started would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

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Post by Cobramatic » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:36 pm

mortal3 wrote:Hi everyone, stoked for all this information here as searching mere Google while muffwiggler was down yielded very minimaI always results in the field of vector rescanning, an art form I have only just found and am utterly captivated by... And indeed, if I can, wish to explore. I live in New Zealand, and am fairly isolated as far as access to some kins if equipment ( oscilloscopes/vector monitors are expensive to ship etc) but recently picked up one of these http://www.buy17.com/JP/ARON/bs601.htm

Could anyone please tell me if I am on the right track with this one, I brought it before I could read any threads on the topic, so a bit of a gamble...

Could I begin my foray with this plus the lzx visual cortex quite simply?.., total no obvious to this.. But I do have quite an established 'audio' eurorack modular, so was hoping to perhaps utilise some of it... I have a lot of reading to do, and all of this video synthesis side of things is totally new, but so enticing!... any help on getting me started would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
That scope 'might' work but I don't see a z-axis input - unless it is on the back?
The Z intensity control on the front is not enough - you need to be able to input your video signal there.
Even if it does have a Z input you have to get the voltages right - I tried some scopes with a z-input but it can be difficult to get the levels right.
See my other posts in this thread for which scope worked very well for me (The Leader).

Once you get the right scope you can use the Visual cortex in combo with some of your eurorack gear to get some scanning and other fun going.
The thing you will need is to mix the Ramps in with the video signal going into X and Y on the scope - so ideally you need a CV mixer for this (The BSO one is cheapest and the LZX Blending matrix is the best, but a euro one should work too).

Many eurorack oscillators, EG's, LFO's and even some filters work well with LZX and the video signals - watch the voltage difference (1V LZX vs 5V euro), use euro scalers, attenuverters and mixers if you have them.

Various threads in this section give you more details but I can tell you the Doepfer basic Oscilator is good for horizontal lines and does lock to the sync signal well.
TipTop Smart VCO also great.
WMD Gamma Wave source is cool for weird shapes but harder to sync.
Maleko Anti-Oscilator and Borg Filters are good for lower (video) frequency shaping. You can get some vertical lines and some great 'smearing' with them.
The 4ms PEG is excellent for modulating stuff as it has a voltage scaler on board.
Loads of other stuff works well to varying degrees - just experiment!

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