Indian Classical Music

Discuss the music that you love to hear.

Moderators: Kent, luketeaford, Joe.

User avatar
onthebandwagon
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2775
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:53 am
Location: jersey

Indian Classical Music

Post by onthebandwagon » Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:53 pm

Do you like Indian classical music? I often forget to listen to it but thankfully on Sunday nights here a collage radio station has an hour or so of it, mostly sounds like they play phonographs, very warm and some crackle and pops. I use to buy EMI India pressing when I came across them, no idea where they went... probably out in the trash with an auctioned off storage unit, I did like the graphic design too.

Those who know the music, do you feel it suffers from variety and progression vs. European classical? What's the point of comparing I guess.
I criticize by creation and by finding fault

"I'm on stage its all an act, I'm really scared that I may fall back on the abstract
It'd be exactly where I'm at"

User avatar
GrantB
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1470
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:58 pm
Location: Oly

Re: Indian Classical Music

Post by GrantB » Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:07 am

onthebandwagon wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:53 pm
What's the point of comparing I guess.
This cuts right to the heart of the matter. The whole idea of <insert country> classical music is a Eurocentric colonialist construct which is mapped on to other cultures in an often clumsy way. Carnatic and Hindustani music were already their own things, and the idea of Indian classical only exists to put them in the frame of reference of European classical music with all that baggage, accurate or not. What do they have in common? Long established? Systematized? Deriving from a tradition of hierarchical authority? So what? So is a lot of "non-classical" music.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... traditions
What's the point of classifying any of these as "classical", except to define it as the apex of music in a given culture and then expound upon the superiority of European classical music?

User avatar
dubonaire
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 7720
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:45 pm

Re: Indian Classical Music

Post by dubonaire » Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:22 am

LOL GrantB what a load of nonsense. Hindustani classic music is a rich and very formalized tradition. I honestly have no idea what you are railing about here.

User avatar
GrantB
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1470
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:58 pm
Location: Oly

Re: Indian Classical Music

Post by GrantB » Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:31 am

dubonaire wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:22 am
LOL GrantB what a load of nonsense. Hindustani classic music is a rich and very formalized tradition. I honestly have no idea what you are railing about here.
Of course it's rich and formalized, but the idea that it's "classical" is a European concept. I recently read that Yourba bata music is the "classical music of Nigeria". It's rich and formalized, and the statement was meant to be a compliment, but it's wrong in more ways than it's right.

User avatar
dubonaire
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 7720
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:45 pm

Re: Indian Classical Music

Post by dubonaire » Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:42 am

GrantB wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:31 am
dubonaire wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:22 am
LOL GrantB what a load of nonsense. Hindustani classic music is a rich and very formalized tradition. I honestly have no idea what you are railing about here.
Of course it's rich and formalized, but the idea that it's "classical" is a European concept. I recently read that Yourba bata music is the "classical music of Nigeria". It's rich and formalized, and the statement was meant to be a compliment, but it's wrong in more ways than it's right.
I don't think it is. It might be an English word but it accurately describes the Hindustani music tradition. Their music exams are incredibly onerous. Students need to play for five or more hours and make no mistakes. Many pieces tell the tales of parts of the Bhagavad Gita. That is classical to me, probably more so than Mozart. Would be good to hear the views of an Indian musician who plays traditional instruments.

User avatar
GrantB
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1470
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:58 pm
Location: Oly

Re: Indian Classical Music

Post by GrantB » Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:02 am

dubonaire wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:42 am
GrantB wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:31 am
dubonaire wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:22 am
LOL GrantB what a load of nonsense. Hindustani classic music is a rich and very formalized tradition. I honestly have no idea what you are railing about here.
Of course it's rich and formalized, but the idea that it's "classical" is a European concept. I recently read that Yourba bata music is the "classical music of Nigeria". It's rich and formalized, and the statement was meant to be a compliment, but it's wrong in more ways than it's right.
I don't think it is. It might be an English word but it accurately describes the Hindustani music tradition. Their music exams are incredibly onerous. Students need to play for five or more hours and make no mistakes. Many pieces tell the tales of parts of the Bhagavad Gita. That is classical to me, probably more so than Mozart. Would be good to hear the views of an Indian musician who plays traditional instruments.
This is exactly what I'm getting at. The only reason to say it's classical is to compare it to Mozart as you just did. Do Indians say Mozart is the Hindustani music of Europe? I suspect European composers of the colonial era would find that outrageous. As the OP said: "what's the point of comparing"?

User avatar
strettara
mufferthucker
Posts: 6892
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:16 am
Location: das Land der eisernen Wurst

Re: Indian Classical Music

Post by strettara » Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:11 am

dubonaire wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:22 am
LOL GrantB what a load of nonsense. Hindustani classic music is a rich and very formalized tradition. I honestly have no idea what you are railing about here.
Gotta agree with Dubonaire here.

I suppose when we talk about classical music (without reference to the specific Haydn/Mozart to early Beethoven period) we're talking about music which has well-established (age-old or traditional?) practices in harmony, melody, tonality and so on (including certain forms) that you really have to study rigorously to become an accomplished performer or composer of. Hindustani classical fits the bill. As does Western music from the renaissance, if not earlier, up to the late 19th century.

Come to think of it, you might say that Hindustani music is more like European baroque music, with its penchant for elaborate improvisation and strict formal structures.

I used to love Hindustani classical music but I haven't listened to it for years. It got a bit monotonous to me. Still a little bit every now and then does no harm.
“It must be abstract. It must change. It must give pleasure."

New album: OZ

User avatar
dubonaire
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 7720
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:45 pm

Re: Indian Classical Music

Post by dubonaire » Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:55 am

GrantB wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:02 am
dubonaire wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:42 am
GrantB wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:31 am
dubonaire wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:22 am
LOL GrantB what a load of nonsense. Hindustani classic music is a rich and very formalized tradition. I honestly have no idea what you are railing about here.
Of course it's rich and formalized, but the idea that it's "classical" is a European concept. I recently read that Yourba bata music is the "classical music of Nigeria". It's rich and formalized, and the statement was meant to be a compliment, but it's wrong in more ways than it's right.
I don't think it is. It might be an English word but it accurately describes the Hindustani music tradition. Their music exams are incredibly onerous. Students need to play for five or more hours and make no mistakes. Many pieces tell the tales of parts of the Bhagavad Gita. That is classical to me, probably more so than Mozart. Would be good to hear the views of an Indian musician who plays traditional instruments.
This is exactly what I'm getting at. The only reason to say it's classical is to compare it to Mozart as you just did. Do Indians say Mozart is the Hindustani music of Europe? I suspect European composers of the colonial era would find that outrageous. As the OP said: "what's the point of comparing"?
I think you’re thinking the word “classical” means western. It doesn’t.

User avatar
GrantB
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1470
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:58 pm
Location: Oly

Re: Indian Classical Music

Post by GrantB » Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:00 am

onthebandwagon wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:53 pm
Those who know the music, do you feel it suffers from variety and progression vs. European classical? What's the point of comparing I guess.
Since I don't seem to be getting through here, I'll answer your questions directly. No, I don't think it suffers from (a lack of?) variety and progression vs European classical music. It's supposed to be like that and it's perfect. What's the point of comparing? Very little. Two (or more) totally different kinds of music that both happen to be tagged with classical.

User avatar
GrantB
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1470
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:58 pm
Location: Oly

Re: Indian Classical Music

Post by GrantB » Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:31 am

dubonaire wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:55 am
I think you’re thinking the word “classical” means western. It doesn’t.
I do not. I do think that the word comes with a lot of Western presumptions which causes other musics to be judged on the values of Western music rather than their own, as in the question posed by the OP.

User avatar
strettara
mufferthucker
Posts: 6892
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:16 am
Location: das Land der eisernen Wurst

Re: Indian Classical Music

Post by strettara » Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:38 am

I'd just point out that Indians call it Hindustani classical too. My wife certainly did and my Indian friends and colleagues over many years in India did too. (it's also true that "hindustani" is sometimes used as a denigratory term for the garbled Hindi or Urdu spoken by British memsahibs during the Imperial period).
GrantB wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:00 am
Two (or more) totally different kinds of music that both happen to be tagged with classical.
For a reason - they are both part of their respective classical art traditions.

Far from being a western colonialist imposition on what might be seen as subaltern cultures, the use of the term is actually a recognition of the equal standing between different cultures. This has been a particularly fruitful dialogue in the case of India - just think of the "white mughals" and the western academic (and, much later, counter culture) fascination with India dating back to the earliest days but especially from the 19th century onwards.

Your axe may need grinding but you're barking up the wrong tree here.
“It must be abstract. It must change. It must give pleasure."

New album: OZ

User avatar
onthebandwagon
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2775
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:53 am
Location: jersey

Re: Indian Classical Music

Post by onthebandwagon » Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:44 am

GrantB wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:31 am
dubonaire wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:55 am
I think you’re thinking the word “classical” means western. It doesn’t.
I do not. I do think that the word comes with a lot of Western presumptions which causes other musics to be judged on the values of Western music rather than their own, as in the question posed by the OP.
Well, I think my question was posed in such a way that it's implied a lack of exposure or understanding of Indian classical music might lead a casual listener to think as much. I would be happy to be directed to your favorite ragas.

So much energy spent on semantics, when someone shows an interest in something they don't have much knowledge of I would hope it would be seen as an opportunity by those who do verse getting hung up on the use of a word such as classical.
Last edited by onthebandwagon on Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
I criticize by creation and by finding fault

"I'm on stage its all an act, I'm really scared that I may fall back on the abstract
It'd be exactly where I'm at"

User avatar
cretaceousear
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2514
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 10:01 am
Location: Suburbia, London

Re: Indian Classical Music

Post by cretaceousear » Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:53 am

Also Grant B I fail to see what the problem is with labelling some Nigerian (West African) music as classical - I'm thinking Toumani Diabate and other kora players. Isn't classical a short hand for courtly music, as opposed to folk music? You may see that as a false value judgement but it's just a way of comparing and contrasting. It's what humans do.
Gamelan?

Incidentally there was a good series on the BBC last year on Indian music - presented by a formally (any better for you?) trained sitar player. He then met, and often played with, perfomers of other variants of Indian music - from formal recitals to village folk to electronic bhangra.
Facebook apologises for flagging Plymouth Hoe as offensive term

User avatar
Fog Door
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 608
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:04 pm
Location: Down, down, down the dark ladder

Re: Indian Classical Music

Post by Fog Door » Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:58 am

it's just a way of comparing and contrasting. It's what humans do
Agreed. Labelling music through laziness and ignorance is never excusable but there does need to be some degree of labelling/generalisation to facilitate a discussion in these vast musical waters. Otherwise every post about music would have to begin with a dozen paragraphs of context, disclaimers and apologies. I understand the points GrantB is making but as strettara suggests, those battles are not being fought here.

User avatar
wackelpeter
Veteran Wiggler
Posts: 599
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:56 pm
Location: Germany, MD

Re: Indian Classical Music

Post by wackelpeter » Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:43 am

Honestly i don't want to contribute to that imho needless dispute but i just want to chime in to say that i listen to some music of Ravi Shankar and some Ragas like those from Pandit Pran Nath...





...and well i 'm not certainly sure if this counts as classical indian music and maybe my definition would differ from what an indian might say, but i just like it and find deeply relaxing and beautiful music.

Not to mention that i have a decent liking for some of the older era Bollywood music which is an very adventurous combination of eastern and western musical tradition and can sometimes be more accurately described as a crash of the two or an happy accident which leaves everyone with a broad grin in his face.

User avatar
dubonaire
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 7720
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:45 pm

Re: Indian Classical Music

Post by dubonaire » Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:57 pm

Getting back to the original question, yes I like it but don't listen to it as often as I could. You have prompted me to listen to it more often.

^^ A raga is a classical Hindustani concept which forms a kind of framework of musical elements around which the artists creates a rasa or feeling.

gruebleengourd
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 792
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:49 am

Re: Indian Classical Music

Post by gruebleengourd » Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:39 pm

Doesn't Classical in the European sense really only mean a period of about 90 years in the history of western aristocracy patronized music? Other uses are pretty vague whether applied to western or nonwestern music.

User avatar
dubonaire
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 7720
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:45 pm

Re: Indian Classical Music

Post by dubonaire » Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:04 pm

gruebleengourd wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 3:39 pm
Doesn't Classical in the European sense really only mean a period of about 90 years in the history of western aristocracy patronized music? Other uses are pretty vague whether applied to western or nonwestern music.
In western music strictly speaking it refers to a 70 year period but the term also broadly refers to the common practice era from 17C to early 20C.

My understanding is the term is well understood in India and covers a form of music that goes back much much earlier. Probably less vague than the term as used in the west. I'm not sure it matters that much, especially in the context of the OP's original question.

IanEye
Common Wiggler
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:53 pm
Location: Devens, MA

with a different beat since you been gone

Post by IanEye » Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:10 am

onthebandwagon wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:53 pm
Do you like Indian classical music?
I really like the album, "Plays Alap - A Sarod Solo" by Ustad Ali Akbar Khan.

Really a crap shoot sometimes whether I put this on or "Bach: Unaccompanied Cello Suites" by Yo-Yo Ma.



But "The New Possibility" by John Fahey is also nice this time of year:




Peace be unto you.
Peace be unto your family.

.

User avatar
onthebandwagon
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2775
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:53 am
Location: jersey

Re: Indian Classical Music

Post by onthebandwagon » Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:35 am

Their is something really engaging when you find one of those radio programs devoted to something like ragas when you're trying to learn more about a genre (hope that isn't goo narrow a term). Unfortunately this program isn't available for streaming but anyone who happens to be near NYC Sunday evenings might want to check it out:

https://www.cc-seas.columbia.edu/wkcr/story/ragas-live

The dj or whatever sounds like an academic, likely so being Colombia University, and they often air short interviews and such.

If anyone know of a similar radio show available via streaming please let me know.
I criticize by creation and by finding fault

"I'm on stage its all an act, I'm really scared that I may fall back on the abstract
It'd be exactly where I'm at"

User avatar
onthebandwagon
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2775
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:53 am
Location: jersey

Re: with a different beat since you been gone

Post by onthebandwagon » Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:36 am

IanEye wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:10 am
onthebandwagon wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:53 pm
Do you like Indian classical music?
By Ustad Ali Akbar Khan.


.
Thanks, I was trying to recall him specifically when i posted this.
I criticize by creation and by finding fault

"I'm on stage its all an act, I'm really scared that I may fall back on the abstract
It'd be exactly where I'm at"

gruebleengourd
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 792
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:49 am

Re: Indian Classical Music

Post by gruebleengourd » Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:23 pm


User avatar
cretaceousear
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 2514
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 10:01 am
Location: Suburbia, London

Re: Indian Classical Music

Post by cretaceousear » Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:02 am

let me put this here
Facebook apologises for flagging Plymouth Hoe as offensive term

areed
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:30 am

Re: Indian Classical Music

Post by areed » Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:54 pm

I have this


Which is a bit of an investment both of monety as well as time an energy to peruse, but it really helped me develop some appreciation for the outstanding charateristics of Hindustani music. I've never become an expert by any means but i'm glad I got it.

synthfanatic
Common Wiggler
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Re: Indian Classical Music

Post by synthfanatic » Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:35 pm

Nihil Banerjee is a favorite


Post Reply

Return to “Artist Discussion”