Announcement: IDOW Hardcore Edition DVD/BluRay repress

Discussions and information relating to the upcoming Modular Synthesizer Documentary.

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Post by mckenic » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:08 am

Some people feel legitimately aggrieved.
Some people feel legitimately aggrieved and expressed it badly.

Some people feel the grievance is irrational.
Some people feel the grievance is irrational and expressed it badly.

And all this has done is stink up the place, causing a member who has made a massive contribution to our collective group to feel he needs to be away from here.

:waah:

Unfortunately, there is no right or wrong in this thread just different levels of shit from people I love & respect.

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Post by negativspace » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:18 am

If you bought the HE DVD as an "investment" or are at all bent out of shape about losing some kind of perceived "exclusivity"... I hope another 10,000 copies sell and that you get made of by your cat for having one because everyone else has one too - you bandwagon-jumping hipster fucks! :hihi:

Seriously, though, get a grip on yourselves. Even people with "first-world problems" think this is ridiculous. :roll:

Edit: I am a HE owner myself, in case anyone is curious about the context of my opinion.
Last edited by negativspace on Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Amberclock » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:19 am

microfauna wrote:
Heathfinnie wrote: Again, I am happy others will see it, just wish they didn't leave a bad taste in so many people who initially supported them. It does send a negative message.
Just curious.
If one were to say that the elements of limited edition and numbered copies account for 1% of the content of the IDOW promises made, if 99% was delivered why are some people so upset? I really don't understand this. I would only feel this way if there had been some great intentional deception.
The fact is that for some people it simply is not 1% of the content - it is much more. Even if I don't agree or don't understand that I find it acceptable. What I do not find acceptable is to erase the rest of the % just because you didn't like that one part which does not alter the content in any way.

On the other hand, Heathfinnie does have a valid point. I am not on the side of any flamer, I may not care about HE being limited or not, but I do believe the way the decision was made and even more important, the attitude that Jason has towards anyone who questions this move (even if it ends up being ungrateful) is a bit off and weird. I don't believe anyone is rushing them contractually speaking to do the reissue right now, as soon as possible. I just felt awkward both by some of the negative answers of the thread and by Jason's reactions to them.

The point is, what's not important for you is important to others and I find that totally normal and acceptable - even if I don't agree with it. The problems start once a side has chosen to behave arrogantly and even worse, the other responds in a similar manner.

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Post by Spirex » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:43 am

Should have been titled" Jason's search for a Modular Synth". No real information about sound sculpting, just glorious pictures of Star Studios. Lightweight Edition here! Hardcore edition should be a little history with real time processing, and the uses of CVcontrol. Oh well! No Allen Strange here! Just a guy who doesn't know how to ask Mr. Clark questions pertaining to Synthesis,just gawking over Museum pieces.....over it all ready!

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Post by KnobHell » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:48 am

Amberclock wrote: The point is, what's not important for you is important to others and I find that totally normal and acceptable - even if I don't agree with it. The problems start once a side has chosen to behave arrogantly and even worse, the other responds in a similar manner.
Why is is arrogant to be in charge of your own fate? None of us own Jason or Robert, as far as I'm aware?

They made a plan, they executed on the plan, and they succeeded. They produced a film. We all got videos. Done.

Ok, they were not numbered, bummer, move on.

Ok, there are going to be more than originally stated, bummer, move on.

For the two categories above Jason provided a means or reconciliation. Those who feel that he over-promised and under-delivered have the option to wind the clock back.

I on the other hand was expecting a two hour DVD and received a FOUR hour DVD. From my perspective Jason gave me twice what I paid for. With that in mind I've seen no one here offer to pay Jason for the extra content, why? How do you guys sleep at night knowing that you received more than you paid for? For those of you bitching don't respond unless you are willing to answer that question first. Otherwise you have no credibility.

It seems like our payment for the extra two hours could be a modicum of respect. No, really... He gave us more that we ever imagined. What a dream to see our passions memorialized in a movie. Many of the subjects of that film are people here on Muffs that we admire and respect. Others were historical pioneers. Do you think any of this industry, music, etc, would have come to be if everyone was consumed with such trivial issues?
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Post by abstraktor » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:49 am

Bloody hell, what a shit storm in a teacup this has turned out to be..

I was a very early funder of IDOW, and paid upfront for what turned out to be the HE edition and a nice T-shirt. I've patiently waited all these months for the package to drop through the door, and it did last week - exactly as promised. I don't even remember a hand numbered thing going on, and am not personally bothered that it's going for a re-press, but I do feel that the makers have reneged on the original deal, but can understand exactly why they have done this - because of piracy concerns and the total nightmare that is cinema distribution. This a very well put together documentary on modular synthesis, which has excellent production values and great audio. It is a labour of love for all those involved- If they were after a quick buck they could have either made a movie about Justin Bieber, or took everyone's cash and just fucked off with it. They did neither.
Why get so upset?

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Post by Amberclock » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:02 pm

KnobHell wrote:
Amberclock wrote: The point is, what's not important for you is important to others and I find that totally normal and acceptable - even if I don't agree with it. The problems start once a side has chosen to behave arrogantly and even worse, the other responds in a similar manner.
Why is is arrogant to be in charge of your own fate? None of us own Jason or Robert, as far as I'm aware?

They made a plan, they executed on the plan, and they succeeded. They produced a film. We all got videos. Done.

[...]
Hey, wait! I never meant that the reprinting itself was "arrogant"! I absolutely agree with the fact that they succeeded - I was strictly speaking about some of the conversations in this particular thread between Jason and those who were not satisfied, to put it lightly, plus the explanations he chose (not) to give after these incidents (and don't tell me deleting another user's post because you are pressured by it is easily excusable behavior, regardless of publicly apologizing). And that again is not meant to say something about him as a person, but rather that strictly IMO he reacted poorly to some comments and didn't elaborate on why he chose to do a reissue that quickly and without any alterations on packaging. Obviously he isn't obliged to do so and I do not intend to command him to do so.

Again, I am not talking about the reprint itself or about whether one *should* disagree, it's in his rights to do so, but in what manner he does that and what he takes into consideration while doing it. And also trying to see it from the side of anyone let down.

Anyway, this whole thing has reached the point where everyone seems to have to explain everything they write so that they do not fall into any extreme - I won't spend any more of my first posts here, I think I've already have done too much so. Cheers, and stay positive all, sorry to hear anyone not happy over something that has no practical value IMO. I still believe this is a great community.

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Post by bwhittington » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:00 pm

Amberclock wrote:sorry to hear anyone not happy over something that has no practical value IMO.
Well, no value? Regardless of how you feel about it, and I feel indifferent, the shift from "limited edition, never in production again" to a reissue represents a real shift of dollars in the sense that the continued demand for this product will now be satisfied by the producer instead of the used/collectible market. If all 2000 sets now have a "used" price of say $10 off list price, that represents a collective $20,000 loss in value in favor of the producer perhaps the producer reaping another $15,000-30,000 in sales (for perhaps another 500 or 1000 units at $30 each).

This sort of thing happens pretty often in the world of short runs of goods, and if it were my video there is no question that I would put it back in production if the demand was there. But I would also find it reasonable for a portion of my prior customers to be miffed by the original deal being altered. The "accept my remedy (refund) and shut up" approach strikes me as a jaw-dropper of a response to customers who invested in the project. That could have been done in a more nuanced way. Good luck getting their money again.

I am not among those who are upset, though. I already sold my copy--just me, but I found it pretty tedious.
Last edited by bwhittington on Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by radiokoala » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:13 pm

bwhittington wrote:Well, no value? Regardless of how you feel about it, and I feel indifferent, the shift from "limited edition, never in production again" to a reissue represents a real shift of dollars in the sense that the continued demand for this product will now be satisfied by the producer instead of the used/collectible market. If all 2000 sets now have a "used" price of say $10 off list price, that represents a collective $20,000 loss in value in favor of the producer perhaps the producer reaping another $15,000-30,000 in sales (for perhaps another 500 or 1000 units at $30 each).
What a junk mathematics, this thread goes to worse with each post. I'm not to pair with my copy under no circumstances, so what is that loss you are talking about? I'm sure there's some 1000+ people who could say the same, so that $20K collective loss is as far-fetched as it was from the beginning.

Also I thought counting other people's money wasn't a good etiquette in Western culture? But if we started, how about you also count a producers' $ loss of many thousand - that time they spent on a project while they could've earned an actual revenue on an actual job? To be quite completely fair.
Witness 60 minutes of audio-visual industrial psy-techno
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Post by KnobHell » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:37 pm

Hey, what would you do?

Jason and Robert just spent over a year and a half of their lives producing something better than anyone could have imagined. They collected money to cover their costs. Do you even think they they even drew a salary? If they did I'm impressed by their frugal lifestyles.

Then instead of receiving the respect they deserve they receive a thrashing from a small number of outspoken people. How would you respond being called a cheat, thief, and a lair?

Do you have children? Hum, you feed, cloth, house them and they bitch about not having everything the neighbors children have.

Well, the world is not perfect, and we don't get everything we want, or were promised. Reality catches up, and good intentions get changed. That does not make someone a cheat, thief, or a lair. If you are an Adult your roll with the changes and understand that most people aren't out to screw you. If you are a charitable person you understand that 99% is good enough and that life goes on.

Don't you believe that Jason and Robert wanted more than anything to deliver everything they said they would? I think their intentions are pretty transparent given the quality of their production. Jason has been communicative on this forum. (how about that 808 project for an example of shit?) Nothing like that transpired here...

For what most people paid, $40, you should be thrilled to get a movie. I "invested" my money and didn't see how these guys could possibly deliver what they were promising for what was being asked. I assume that they were grossly underfunded. In the case they had failed I expected nothing back. I would have never "invested" the money if I couldn't have afforded to lose it. I've been in business for over 30 years. I understand budgets, cash flow, products, marketing, and sales. I'm accustomed to million dollar budgets. What these guys accomplished for their level of funding was fantastic. If they came to me as a VC I would have tired to talk them into taking more money. Go look at the average budget for anything Hollywood has produced and tell me that these guys have cheated one person out of a penny. Anyone who believes that these guys are crooks in any shape or form have issues with reality.

The arrogance I see are from the small people without an ounce of imagination or understanding who have no idea of what just occurred for their personal benefit. Neither Jason or Robert are going to get rich from this venture. They will both get their 15 minutes of fame, and within a short period of time everyone will move on. Why can't we allow them to both bask in their hard earned glory without fucking that up? They earned it, none of us held a camera and interviewed these people. None of use spent time away from our family or friends to produce this film. We simply parted with a few dollars of our disposable income to invest in two men's dreams.

And even with all that, there have been a few pricks who have outright STOLEN the film and posted it for others to download it for free. These vindictive assholes are adding insult to injury in further removing the possibility that Jason and Robert might profit from their personal investment.

What's pathetic here is that people keep this conversation alive and see credibility in the naysayers complaints. How twisted does your mind have to be to see any merit in their arguments? How can one buoy up an idiot that refuses to accept a settlement that has been offered? A perceived missed opportunity is no where equal to the investment these men made. Anyone believing so, or arguing their side, has a complete and twisted sense of justice and equity.

Amberclock wrote:
KnobHell wrote:
Amberclock wrote: The point is, what's not important for you is important to others and I find that totally normal and acceptable - even if I don't agree with it. The problems start once a side has chosen to behave arrogantly and even worse, the other responds in a similar manner.
Why is is arrogant to be in charge of your own fate? None of us own Jason or Robert, as far as I'm aware?

They made a plan, they executed on the plan, and they succeeded. They produced a film. We all got videos. Done.

[...]
Hey, wait! I never meant that the reprinting itself was "arrogant"! I absolutely agree with the fact that they succeeded - I was strictly speaking about some of the conversations in this particular thread between Jason and those who were not satisfied, to put it lightly, plus the explanations he chose (not) to give after these incidents (and don't tell me deleting another user's post because you are pressured by it is easily excusable behavior, regardless of publicly apologizing). And that again is not meant to say something about him as a person, but rather that strictly IMO he reacted poorly to some comments and didn't elaborate on why he chose to do a reissue that quickly and without any alterations on packaging. Obviously he isn't obliged to do so and I do not intend to command him to do so.

Again, I am not talking about the reprint itself or about whether one *should* disagree, it's in his rights to do so, but in what manner he does that and what he takes into consideration while doing it. And also trying to see it from the side of anyone let down.

Anyway, this whole thing has reached the point where everyone seems to have to explain everything they write so that they do not fall into any extreme - I won't spend any more of my first posts here, I think I've already have done too much so. Cheers, and stay positive all, sorry to hear anyone not happy over something that has no practical value IMO. I still believe this is a great community.
Last edited by KnobHell on Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by noobyscooby » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:52 pm

Holy fuck. Each side has a point. Enough with pretending that they don't.

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Post by Babaluma » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:59 pm

great news! screw the nay sayers! i was one of the people complaining because i missed out first time around, but now i'm very happy! i will order as soon as it is available, thank you! :)

:twisted:

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Post by sonicwarrior » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:09 pm

KnobHell wrote:No, posts like yours are corrosive and keep this shit going.
Now we have a Kindergarten conversation going on. At least I have the excuse of not being a native English speaker and coming from Germany where we handle discussions differently.
climbingtyler wrote:Lets get positive here!
Funny suggesting this and writing the following in the same posting:
climbingtyler wrote:completely butthurt
...
go fuck yourself
...
pricks complaining
...
not contributing members
..
Get over yourself.
That's what I call double standard.
climbingtyler wrote:People like you are driving this community to the ground.
If it is that easy to divide the 'community' with the slightest dispute the 'community' was just an illusion.
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Post by KnobHell » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:10 pm

noobyscooby wrote:Holy fuck. Each side has a point. Enough with pretending that they don't.
What point to the complainers have? They were offered a remedy. If they accept they lose nothing. They have no ground to stand on if they refuse the settlement.

A perceived loss is not a loss. This is not pretend, one side invested heavily without the option of a refund.

The producers invested real time and real money.

I don't see your moral equivalence. Feelings and political correctness have no place in reality.

0 != Real
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Post by thesnow » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:15 pm

is there an ass kisser emoticon for knobhell? jesus fucking christ.

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Post by sonicwarrior » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:17 pm

KnobHell wrote:What point to the complainers have? They were offered a remedy.
No, we have not. I want to keep my copy.

A better, simple and doable solution has been suggested (simply printing 'repress' instead of 'limited edition') and been easily dismissed.
Edit: Tell me how that would raise the costs and consume notable time.
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Post by KnobHell » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:21 pm

Ok sonicwarrior, you gave us some cute little quips here. But how about providing us with some real logic?

Please explain to me how someones perceived loss, and then their non-acceptance of a remedy is justification for defaming the producers?

Please explain to me how someones perceived loss, and then their non-acceptance of a remedy is justification for stealing and illegally posting someone else s intellectual property?

I respect that Germany has laws and respect for property and people.


sonicwarrior wrote:
KnobHell wrote:No, posts like yours are corrosive and keep this shit going.
Now we have a Kindergarten conversation going on. At least I have the excuse of not being a native English speaker and coming from Germany where we handle discussions differently.
climbingtyler wrote:Lets get positive here!
Funny suggesting this and writing the following in the same posting:
climbingtyler wrote:completely butthurt
...
go fuck yourself
...
pricks complaining
...
not contributing members
..
Get over yourself.
That's what I call double standard.
climbingtyler wrote:People like you are driving this community to the ground.
If it is that easy to divide the 'community' with the slightest dispute the 'community' was just an illusion.
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Post by Babaluma » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:23 pm

:popcorn:

:lol:

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Post by KnobHell » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:25 pm

At least in America, refusing a settlement and keeping the disk is stating that you are in agreement with what you were sold.

Otherwise you sue, and to do that you need to prove damages.

It's a put up, or shut up kind of situation.

There are no other options...



sonicwarrior wrote:
KnobHell wrote:What point to the complainers have? They were offered a remedy.
No, we have not. I want to keep my copy.

A better, simple and doable solution has been suggested (simply printing 'repress' instead of 'limited edition') and been easily dismissed.
Edit: Tell me how that would raise the costs and consume notable time.
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Post by sonicwarrior » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:25 pm

KnobHell wrote:Please explain to me how someones perceived loss, and then their non-acceptance of a remedy is justification for defaming the producers?
Where have I been defaming the producers? Did you note my mention of the language barrier? I have done an English test an Saturday and my level is just B2+.
KnobHell wrote:Please explain to me how someones perceived loss, and then their non-acceptance of a remedy is justification for stealing and illegally posting someone else s intellectual property?
I don't follow and don't see a connection to my postings.
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Post by KnobHell » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:28 pm

Babaluma wrote::popcorn:

:lol:
+1000
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Post by KnobHell » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:29 pm

Sorry if I've exceeded your understanding. I'm not sure how to make this any more clear.
sonicwarrior wrote:
KnobHell wrote:Please explain to me how someones perceived loss, and then their non-acceptance of a remedy is justification for defaming the producers?
Where have I been defaming the producers? Did you note my mention of the language barrier? I have done an English test an Saturday and my level is just B2+.
KnobHell wrote:Please explain to me how someones perceived loss, and then their non-acceptance of a remedy is justification for stealing and illegally posting someone else s intellectual property?
I don't follow and don't see a connection to my postings.
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Post by sonicwarrior » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:30 pm

KnobHell wrote:There are no other options
'America the land of liberty'. Now I understand.
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Post by sonicwarrior » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:32 pm

KnobHell wrote:Sorry if I've exceeded your understanding. I'm not sure how to make this any more clear.
Please post a quote of me defaming the producers.

Please enlighten me of how anything I wrote has anything to do with stealing.
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Post by clarke68 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:36 pm

I wanted to say, "every Wiggler needs to see this!" in my review of IDOW HE. However, I left it out because I didn't think every Wiggler would be able to. Now every Wiggler can, so I think the repress is massively good news!

Sure, I didn't receive the "hand-numbered" disc that I was allegedly promised, but I also wasn't promised a 4-hour long Hardcore Edition, and I thought that decision was pretty awesome. I actually contributed twice so I could get a t-shirt and a soundtrack CD, and because of that I ended up with both DVD and Blu-Ray versions, so IMO Jason and Robert have over-delivered on everything.

Amberclock wrote:That whole thing really makes me think about what "Limited Edition" semiotically means for the modern culture and the modern consumer.
"Limited Edition" means nothing. Due to the very nature of manufacturing, everything ever made is always a "limited edition". A 2013 Toyota Corolla is a limited edition, because you're not going to be able to buy one in 2014. I'd like to see the term put to death, but until that happens I'm content to ignore it where ever it crops up.
Last edited by clarke68 on Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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