Announcement: IDOW Hardcore Edition DVD/BluRay repress

Discussions and information relating to the upcoming Modular Synthesizer Documentary.

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Post by KnobHell » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:36 pm

Your complicity with the arguments against the producers is support.


sonicwarrior wrote:
KnobHell wrote:Sorry if I've exceeded your understanding. I'm not sure how to make this any more clear.
Please post a quote of me defaming the producers.

Please enlighten me of how anything I wrote has anything to do with stealing.
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Post by KnobHell » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:37 pm

Nice quip, I'll put that in my arsenal for next time.
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KnobHell wrote:There are no other options
'America the land of liberty'. Now I understand.
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Post by Heathfinnie » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:39 pm

Yes I was offered a refund, and again I'm not going to take it. Don't really care about this to that degree. I was offended about the "you pay shipping and consider it a rental fee" I could counter with "you pay shipping and consider it interest on the loan I gave you investing in your film" since that is exactly what it would be - a loan. It was really just the arrogance after the fact that bothered me most.

Both sides do have an argument and this whole debacle could've been avoided if they just said initially that they may re-press depending on demand. It would've been that simple.

Here is one of the last things I will say about it. The producers themselves are the ones that made comment after comment after comment about exclusivity. Not the people who put their money up. Was that an incentive for a few? Perhaps, but the producers themselves made that a part of their campaign. To then have that level of arrogance towards customers being upset that they changed what they offered is what bothers me most.

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Post by KnobHell » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:49 pm

I think just to be fair... I've seldom seen a small business eat the return shipping. Large retailers are typically the only ones who will do that.

Interest? What interest. If you put your money in a savings account you get 1% these days? What would 1% be on $40 for 1.5 years.

And my best guess is that with their timeline the money didn't sit long enough to build any interest.

Expressing disappointment is one thing, that's fair. Defaming to guys that worked their ass off for us and someone illegally posting their movie is another. Some of the early posters accused Jason of theft and being dishonest.

If you are not going to take the refund, what is the point of continued complaining? Everything that can be said, has been said....


Heathfinnie wrote:Yes I was offered a refund, and again I'm not going to take it. Don't really care about this to that degree. I was offended about the "you pay shipping and consider it a rental fee" I could counter with "you pay shipping and consider it interest on the loan I gave you investing in your film" since that is exactly what it would be - a loan. It was really just the arrogance after the fact that bothered me most.

Both sides do have an argument and this whole debacle could've been avoided if they just said initially that they may re-press depending on demand. It would've been that simple.

Here is one of the last things I will say about it. The producers themselves are the ones that made comment after comment after comment about exclusivity. Not the people who put their money up. Was that an incentive for a few? Perhaps, but the producers themselves made that a part of their campaign. To then complain about customers being upset that they changed what they offered is what bothers me most.
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Post by sonicwarrior » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:53 pm

KnobHell wrote:Your complicity with the arguments against the producers is support.
Bullshit. It's the producers that haven't hold a promise and didn't provide a suitable solution. Pointing that out is not defamation. Nor is that support for some jerks who put the content on an illegal download site.
Defamation is calling the ones pointing that out whiners, destroyers of the community and whatnot.
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Post by KnobHell » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:54 pm

Yawn
sonicwarrior wrote:
KnobHell wrote:Your complicity with the arguments against the producers is support.
Bullshit. It's the producers that haven't hold a promise and didn't provide a suitable solution. Pointing that out is not defamation. Nor is that support for some jerks who put the content on an illegal download site.
Defamation is calling the ones pointing that out whiners, destroyers of the community and whatnot.
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Post by sonicwarrior » Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:03 pm

KnobHell wrote:Yawn
So you have to have the last word? How mature, but go on. My point has been made so you shall now continue flooding this thread with meaningless but mean postings.
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Post by Dr. Sketch-n-Etch » Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:22 pm

Heathfinnie wrote:Both sides do have an argument and this whole debacle could've been avoided if they just said initially that they may re-press depending on demand. It would've been that simple.
I'm curious: did you only buy the thing (or prebuy/invest) because you thought it was going to be "exclusive"? I really can't understand why anyone cares! (As if any digital media could be considered "exclusive" considering how easy it is to share unethically.)

(Edited for spelling (wrote "though tit", meant "thought it")
Last edited by Dr. Sketch-n-Etch on Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by noobyscooby » Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:28 pm

KnobHell wrote:What point to the complainers have? They were offered a remedy. If they accept they lose nothing. They have no ground to stand on if they refuse the settlement.

A perceived loss is not a loss. This is not pretend, one side invested heavily without the option of a refund.

The producers invested real time and real money.

I don't see your moral equivalence. Feelings and political correctness have no place in reality.

0 != Real
The problem is that in 2013 most people have come to live with being overpromised and underdelivered on things. It's not just Jason, it's not just modulars, a whole notion has been created to say anything to get the money you need and then just do whatever the fuck you want. Or can do, as long as you did your "best". Whiny customers be damned. They should just be happy they got something. They should just be happy the movie got made.

But some haven't accepted this still or refuse to accept it and they're pissed off about having the script flipped on them with many things they buy all the time. Be it a house they build, a synth or module they buy, a cellphone, a computer, a copy of IDOW HE they thought would be limited but obviously isn't. And for some the more this happens the more frustrated they get.

People have become complacent and accepting of the notion. That what you are purchasing, in advance which happens a lot in the modular company and with small companies, may not be what you paid for but these are all little companies and not evil corporations and whatever they put out is OK because they are trying so hard and that something got to market should be all that counts.

Fuck that. It would be easier to take if things weren't promised. I look around my studio and see hardware and software that have been promised hardware and bug fixes. That have been promised for years. But of course, nothing has been done or fixed.

If they weren't promised in the first place and the maker just said "We got it to market but we're not supporting it or fixing anything else and moving on to other things, deal with it," I would have more respect for that. But it's easier and helps still sell available product to say that bug fixes and upgrades are coming. Without any obligation to ever deliver, ever. Or fix them and put it out as a new model that people have to buy outright or pay a lot of money to get upgraded to.

The reason bugs rarely get worked out on stuff from small makers and the reason IDOW HE isn't going to change the appearence of their rerelease is because it costs money. And small companies don't have piles of money and staff sitting working around the clock to make everyone happy. I get that. But don't overpromise then underdeliver. People don't have to be happy with that. Most will be fine with it or at least live with it. I am sure there are a lot more people unhappy with this development but they're not bothering to write a long winded post because they know that nobody gives a shit what they think and that a longwinded post isn't going to change anything.

IDOW as a whole from the beginning reminds me of a really ugly hockey or football game. The team spins a lot of hype and optimistic predictions pregame to get bums in the seats. The game is played, mistakes are made, the team you're playing against is a lot harder to play than you thought, feelings get hurt, guys are yelling at each other on the bench, you have to change your gameplan and you do everything to try to get a win. But ultimately you get a win. Whatever mistakes you made just try to not do them the next game/movie.

But that's not going to matter for some fans, bloggers, pundits, reporters. You got a win, which is all you care about but there's going to be a bunch of people who shit on everything you did wrong in the game, the gameplan, ask why you didn't get more points and shit on certain players no matter what those players do or how hard they play. But you don't care. Because winning is still better than losing.

The movie got made. That is a win for this whole project. Time to move on.

I've really been surprised with Jason's reactions to issues both here and on Gearslutz, VSE etc. He's a successful label owner, artist, musician, live electronic music performer. I have known Jason peripherally through my involvment in DJing, media and radio shows and my support of his music and label. Jason strikes me and others that deal more directly with him as a person who has visions and aggressively makes them happen regardless of haters and criticism. So when dissent started making it's way through forums as it ALWAYS does with EVERYTHING, I was really surprised that he got involved and engaged with people.

The cynical side of me thinks that getting involved with these haters is an attempt to clean up what he sees as bad publicity for the theatrical release or to not disuade sales and fundraising efforts. I don't think Jason actually cares about dissenting opinions about what has been created, how it's been done and his reactions to dissenting confirms that yet it seems he's concerned about what the comments might do to how the project appears to those with a passing interest in it.

But what he doesn't realize is that people will hold their opinions regardless. I think Jason has made a mistake and done himself a great disservice by getting in these conversations. He expects and celebrates the positve praise while offering half hearted condescending words or solutions to people that have a very low chance of being appeased. If your vision's not going to change, why got involved in these conversations, period?

Do your work, put it out, and relax, enjoy. Repeat. People will have negative things to say about anything anybody does or puts out in 2013 and there's no way to quash their opinions or change them if the opinion is strong enough.
Last edited by noobyscooby on Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by RobJB06 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:34 pm

You sir, are a right obnoxious twat......
You've expressed your views repeatedly, some other people (myself included) don't agree with you, so why don't you stfu and move on.
My view is that the product is good but that the general marketing campaign, business ethics and general tone of communication has been disrespectful. Nothing to lose any sleep about, but still there it is......
On the subject of pirating the film, i think its shameful whoever did it.
Im all for more people watching it and wish the producers lots of continued success with it, but i still think the rerun should be offered in an edited format, because that was the agreement with the pre order customers.
KnobHell wrote:Yawn
sonicwarrior wrote:
KnobHell wrote:Your complicity with the arguments against the producers is support.
Bullshit. It's the producers that haven't hold a promise and didn't provide a suitable solution. Pointing that out is not defamation. Nor is that support for some jerks who put the content on an illegal download site.
Defamation is calling the ones pointing that out whiners, destroyers of the community and whatnot.

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Post by emergencyofstate » Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:42 pm

I'm only going to pipe in that I was completely motivated by the Facebook campaign telling me several months ago to purchase while I could before the final cut off because the hardcore edition would never be available again. Simple as that.

Do I really care that the thing will be repressed? Not really. But perhaps this whole debacle can be a valuable lesson in Marketing/Communications to the producers. Perception is everything.

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Post by KnobHell » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:33 pm

I do my best, it's hard when you are right.

:yay:
RobJB06 wrote:You sir, are a right obnoxious twat......
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Post by KnobHell » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:44 pm

I very much doubt that Jason had any malice in his intentions. This thread seems to be reacting as if he held three women in a basement for 15 years.

I'm going to guess and the next few things here...

1. Jason is an Artist.

2. Jason had a dream

3. Jason believe others would see value in his dream.

4. Jason read other fundraising posts and used that as a baseline for IDOW.

Fast-forward to 2013.... It took more time than he anticipated, it cost more money than he anticipated. But in the end He and Robert produced something of value.

Reality dictates that Jason pays his bills, has to eat, and live somewhere. Have anyone you pissed off people asked Jason if he cleared money on this project? Did he incur debt? What was the personal cost to he and Roberts family? What did he NOT do because he was doing IDOW?

Maybe rather than licking your own wounds why not consider than there are two other people here needing a bit of first aid.

For all you cynical fucks out there, not everyone in the world is out there to screw you. You might consider the real human cost of such a project and stop feeling sorry for yourselves long enough to consider someone else...

noobyscooby wrote:
The problem is that in 2013 most people have come to live with being overpromised and underdelivered on things. It's not just Jason, it's not just modulars, a whole notion has been created to say anything to get the money you need and then just do whatever the fuck you want. Or can do, as long as you did your "best". Whiny customers be damned. They should just be happy they got something. They should just be happy the movie got made.
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Post by silikon » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:55 pm

noobyscooby wrote:alot of stuff that had good perspective in a thread replete with the most ridiculous display of childish behavior ever.
Be it far from me to complain without merit; therefore chalk me up as one person who will certainly take that refund.

Some of you blokes should be bloody ashamed of this display. :mad:
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Post by metasonix » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:01 pm

I think you gents can stop shrieking at each other. It appears that Jason has given up on this thread.

This is nothing anyway. It will not "harm the community", because the vast bulk of Muff users, and purchasers of IDOW, are ignoring it.

(If you want to see a place where the arguments are REALLY toxic, and REALLY long, let me show you how they do it on Wikipedia.)

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Post by noobyscooby » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:08 pm

silikon wrote:
noobyscooby wrote:alot of stuff that had good perspective in a thread replete with the most ridiculous display of childish behavior ever.
Be it far from me to complain without merit; therefore chalk me up as one person who will certainly take that refund.

Some of you blokes should be bloody ashamed of this display. :mad:
Where did I say this? Was it a misquote or have I got lost in my own bullshit?

EDIT: I get you, you were paraphrasing me and supporting my comment. I'll go back to sleep now.
Last edited by noobyscooby on Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by noobyscooby » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:10 pm

KnobHell wrote:I very much doubt that Jason had any malice in his intentions. This thread seems to be reacting as if he held three women in a basement for 15 years.

I'm going to guess and the next few things here...

1. Jason is an Artist.

2. Jason had a dream

3. Jason believe others would see value in his dream.

4. Jason read other fundraising posts and used that as a baseline for IDOW.

Fast-forward to 2013.... It took more time than he anticipated, it cost more money than he anticipated. But in the end He and Robert produced something of value.

Reality dictates that Jason pays his bills, has to eat, and live somewhere. Have anyone you pissed off people asked Jason if he cleared money on this project? Did he incur debt? What was the personal cost to he and Roberts family? What did he NOT do because he was doing IDOW?

Maybe rather than licking your own wounds why not consider than there are two other people here needing a bit of first aid.

For all you cynical fucks out there, not everyone in the world is out there to screw you. You might consider the real human cost of such a project and stop feeling sorry for yourselves long enough to consider someone else...
But none of this matters or excuses the decision. We all try really hard every day. One thing was promised, another thing was delivered, period.

They made a decision, a couple of dozen people are pissed off about it and it's ok for those people to be pissed off about it. You are not going to change anyone's opinion about it and those people have a valid right to be upset about it.

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Post by KnobHell » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:09 pm

Ok, so they are pissed of, big whoop!

Give me something tangible.

Jason has offered his solution. He has offered a refund, I've seen one person accept it. The problem with Jason's solution is that the buyer got to still watch the film. They consumed Jason's product. What does Jason get in return? Maybe a rental fee, crumbs for his labor of a year and a half.

Feelings are not relevant here. A feeling is not tangible. You can not trade a feeling for food, water, shelter, or modules. Why instead of their incendiary postings about what an awful person Jason was, do they not offer a real solution? How about a win/win solution where Jason doesn't have to sell his synth to make good to a handful of people?

Up to this point I've only seen character assassination perpetrated on Jason and Robert. Unlike the rest of us who are for all purposes are anonymous, Jason and Robert are real people, with real reputations, and real damage has been done to both of them. If you can turn of your emotions long enough to reason you will see that I am right.

noobyscooby wrote:
But none of this matters or excuses the decision. We all try really hard every day. One thing was promised, another thing was delivered, period.

They made a decision, a couple of dozen people are pissed off about it and it's ok for those people to be pissed off about it. You are not going to change anyone's opinion about it and those people have a valid right to be upset about it.
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Post by Dr. Sketch-n-Etch » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:39 pm

Another thing the whingers may not be taking into account here is that it would appear as if Robert and Jason have had no luck getting a theatrical edit of the film accepted to any of the major documentary festivals. This was a major reason to make the film in the first place. If that doesn't happen, then their ability to reap any financial benefit from the film is seriously curtailed. To have undertaken three years of constant (and very professional, and very expensive) effort so that a few hundred (fucking ungrateful) wigglers can have a DVD is insane, regardless of the promises made way back when.
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Post by Heathfinnie » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:16 pm

Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
Heathfinnie wrote:Both sides do have an argument and this whole debacle could've been avoided if they just said initially that they may re-press depending on demand. It would've been that simple.
I'm curious: did you only buy the thing (or prebuy/invest) because you thought it was going to be "exclusive"? I really can't understand why anyone cares! (As if any digital media could be considered "exclusive" considering how easy it is to share unethically.)
As I said, I didn't buy it for that. But THEY were the ones that put that exclusivity upon the product from the start, not me, and they did it obviously to raise more money from the onset. And who I am to judge why someone wants to buy a product? If someone did want to buy it for the exclusivity, thats their right and not for me to judge as so many others here have. I also want to say I have not once defamed them or insulted them. Just said my opinion based upon their actions and my purchase. I'm not going to stop them from doing a repress (I couldn't if I even wanted to), but I do have a right to my opinion as do you.

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Post by Heathfinnie » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:31 pm

KnobHell wrote:The problem with Jason's solution is that the buyer got to still watch the film. They consumed Jason's product. What does Jason get in return? Maybe a rental fee, crumbs for his labor of a year and a half.
He got money initially to use as an investment in the project. Now that the project has hit fruition they say here's your money back. However you want to look at that, I was a loan now in that situation (out the shipping cost). He received money from me for a product that wasn't as THEY described it and then says, "well here is your money back". Easy to say now that I've helped fund the project.

Again, I feel my posts are misconstrued. I'm not that angry, just a bit shocked at the bit of arrogance that the producers have for customers complaining that they didn't get what they the very producers said they would.

They even mentioned on FB to talk about the situation here, and then abandon the thread when it starts to get uncomfortable for them and edit posts.

I understand it's a labor of love and they most likely didn't make that much money from the project if any at all, but that still doesn't change the fact that they made the offer.

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Post by darenager » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:42 pm

To everyone who bought it for the exclusivety and feels ripped off why not just get the refund that was offered?

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Post by KnobHell » Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:57 pm

What are we talking about, 40$

How much a week do you spend on coffee?

Come on... I sent my money in expecting nothing.

Wait till you invest 10 or 100k in a company, then give me a call.


Heathfinnie wrote:
KnobHell wrote:The problem with Jason's solution is that the buyer got to still watch the film. They consumed Jason's product. What does Jason get in return? Maybe a rental fee, crumbs for his labor of a year and a half.
He got money initially to use as an investment in the project. Now that the project has hit fruition they say here's your money back. However you want to look at that, I was a loan now in that situation (out the shipping cost). He received money from me for a product that wasn't as THEY described it and then says, "well here is your money back". Easy to say now that I've helped fund the project.

Again, I feel my posts are misconstrued. I'm not that angry, just a bit shocked at the bit of arrogance that the producers have for customers complaining that they didn't get what they the very producers said they would.

They even mentioned on FB to talk about the situation here, and then abandon the thread when it starts to get uncomfortable for them and edit posts.

I understand it's a labor of love and they most likely didn't make that much money from the project if any at all, but that still doesn't change the fact that they made the offer.
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Post by Heathfinnie » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:23 pm

KnobHell wrote:What are we talking about, 40$

How much a week do you spend on coffee?

Come on... I sent my money in expecting nothing.

Wait till you invest 10 or 100k in a company, then give me a call.


Heathfinnie wrote:
KnobHell wrote:The problem with Jason's solution is that the buyer got to still watch the film. They consumed Jason's product. What does Jason get in return? Maybe a rental fee, crumbs for his labor of a year and a half.
He got money initially to use as an investment in the project. Now that the project has hit fruition they say here's your money back. However you want to look at that, I was a loan now in that situation (out the shipping cost). He received money from me for a product that wasn't as THEY described it and then says, "well here is your money back". Easy to say now that I've helped fund the project.

Again, I feel my posts are misconstrued. I'm not that angry, just a bit shocked at the bit of arrogance that the producers have for customers complaining that they didn't get what they the very producers said they would.

They even mentioned on FB to talk about the situation here, and then abandon the thread when it starts to get uncomfortable for them and edit posts.

I understand it's a labor of love and they most likely didn't make that much money from the project if any at all, but that still doesn't change the fact that they made the offer.
It's the morals of the situation...

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Post by vav » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:33 pm

Wow. Just wow. Ok.

Here's my piece:

On October 6th, 2011 i gave $125 to the IndieGoGo campaign for Modular: The Documentary. This was the Full Package level, which, according to the IndieGoGo site (accessed today, 9/9/13 @ 8:25pm CST) bought me, and i quote:

FULL PACKAGE
DVD copy of the film sent to you, upon film's completion + CD and Vinyl LP copy of the original soundtrack by Solvent + T-Shirt + sticker/postcard/button set Price includes international shipping.

Shortly thereafter Jason got involved quite heavily, and in my opinion, for the better. He also helped develop a story, namely his, about what it's like to enter the modular world.

From then on it was called I Dream Of Wires, which made me giggle like a school girl at the Gary Numan reference while piddling away with my shiny new Echophon, and i waited patiently.

I never even knew the Hardcore Edition existed until someone mentioned it in passing to me back in April or somesuch. I thought "Hey cool, that's awesome!" It seems all of the emails never made it to me, so i initially missed the chance to make my choice between Blue Ray and DVD. No worries, though, i emailed Jason, and he took care of it, albeit in his terse manner. I was not unhappy, nor was i upset, in fact i was quite satisfied. All was taken care of, I just thought his "bedside manner" could use some improvement. Picking a shirt was a similar experience. All good, no worries.

So then my Facebook feed starts blipping "HEY ALRIGHT, IDOW SHOWED UP WOOOO" in late July/early August. I was kinda shocked i hadnt received mine. In fact, i waited all of August for it to show up, and it didnt. I was quite surprised that, as one of the first supporters, i was one of the last to receive mine. I was irritable for a little bit, 'cause i believe in "Ship In Order Of Received," but whatever, it's a tiny little operation trying to do the best they can with what they've got, and i had full confidence it would show up. Jason even reached out on FB to let me know he knew i was waiting on it, along with perk stuff, and shipped it when he said he would. And it did show up on 8/31/13, along with the postcards/button/stickers, AND my XL shirt. I still think it was crap to be one of the last to get it when some Johnny Come Lately pays 3 weeks out and gets it weeks before me...i mean, i realize it's not the end of the world. I really do. And at the end of the day, yah know, fuck it, life's too short.

So i watched it, and it was awesome. I watched the whole 4 hours in one sitting and loved it! I'm really proud to be a supporter of such a cool project. Totally worth the wait in my book.

Then i logged into Muffs and have been watching this thread. What a trainwreck.

Personally, i dont care about the "Limited Edition" aspect of this at all, and anyway using that as a reason to berate those that are upset by the unfullfillment of their contract is a straw man. Hell, i had no idea it was supposed to be "hand numbered" until i saw this thread! In fact, i think it's awesome that they're going to do another run of discs, because i've had multiple people ask me where they could buy it.

Here's why people are mad: They paid for something they didnt get. It doesnt matter how trivial the detail is, nor how many actually care about this detail in the first place. That's what they paid for. Couple that with terrible people skills/customer service, and you've got yourself a clusterfuck. Jason's solution is a refund. Which is all well and good, but if you actually go and read what he wrote, he looks like a dick. Plain and simple. Like this part: "With that, I feel that the debate is over." It's both dismissive, arrogant and borderline insulting.

Recall that i'm still waiting on perks, too, namely, the CD & Vinyl copies of the soundtrack, so i've still got skin in the game. I have full confidence they'll show up at some point. But based upon my interaction with Jason and his comments in this thread, i hope i dont have to deal with him at all to get them.


Do i think Jason is a dick? Of course not. I think he's a passionate guy with bad customer service skills that ended up in WAY over his head. Nor do i think the film needs to suffer from it. And i think that a refund will satisfy some people. But you know what? I bet it wont satisfy everyone. And that's OK, because everyone feels a bit differently. That's not character assassination.
Vactrols are the electronic equivalent of being drunk. -decaying.sine

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