Announcement: IDOW Hardcore Edition DVD/BluRay repress

Discussions and information relating to the upcoming Modular Synthesizer Documentary.

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Nelson Baboon
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Post by Nelson Baboon » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:51 pm

I didn't order one, nor was I ever really interested. I didn't read the whole thread. So, you'll forgive me if I have my facts wrong.

It seems to me that people who are pissed off about the way they are treated are being attacked by some people, and I think that's a bad thing.

I actually had a chance to watch the 4 hour version, and I couldn't make it through it. I thought that it was pretty fucking superficial, an ad for eurorack, and that a few people that I don't consider to be major players, got major time. I think that after some nods to more experimental music in the first part, it fell back to mostly boring techno in the second part.

I also have a good friend who was pretty incensed about the way he was treated, and I totally believe him, and respect his opinion on this.

The important point that I make, and I hope that this doesn't cause too much rancor, is that at least on the surface, it seems like people were led to believe things that turned out not to be true, and it sounds to me like the manufacturer doesn't really take them seriously.

People may disagree, but when dissenters start getting attacked for their opinion, I think that's pretty bad.

My facts may be wrong (I hope not), and I may be off in other things, but I really don't think that just the fact that someone did a documentary about the modular synth revival implies that it is a good documentary, or that they have treated people right. At the same time, I apologize if I am hallucinating my data....

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Post by KnobHell » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:10 pm

This is where you lose me, morals of the situation?

I don't recall Jason telling anyone to screw themselves. It's been a long thread, but not that long. Somewhere back he offered a refund. It seems that's the "moral" thing to do when someone is unhappy with a product they received.

I have a hard time equating a serial number and a re-release with lack of morals.

How about the demands on Jason that he sacrifice more of his time and money after he has delivered, or offered a resolution? That's immoral...
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It's the morals of the situation...
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Post by KnobHell » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:13 pm

You should go back and read the complete thread. A few of us are actually standing up for Jason. Those who are attacking him are using words like "lair" and "cheat". If people simply stated their "feelings" at the deficiencies that is one thing. Some have made it quite personal.
Nelson Baboon wrote:
It seems to me that people who are pissed off about the way they are treated are being attacked by some people, and I think that's a bad thing.

.
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Post by Nelson Baboon » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:17 pm

Have they used these terms because they felt lied to or cheated?

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Post by elmegil » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:19 pm

Nelson Baboon wrote:It seems to me that people who are pissed off about the way they are treated are being attacked by some people, and I think that's a bad thing.

...

People may disagree, but when dissenters start getting attacked for their opinion, I think that's pretty bad.
The first words that were "attacking" came from those who are pissed off that they didn't get the exclusivity they paid for.

It's not simply "dissent" to flat out call the producers liars, as if they planned this all along, as if their intent was to trick everyone. Things changed, their customer service skills suck, most of us can look at the circumstances and imagine what it would be like to in those shoes and cut them some slack.

Did any of these disgruntled people attempt to resolve their dissatisfaction directly with Jason? Or did they just dive into the forum to raise hell about it? Because that's what it looked like. Such behavior doesn't deserve being treated as "dissent".

If someone is going to raise hell about the horrible injustice of not getting a limited edition hand numbered item, you can expect other people to point out how fucking petty that sounds. If you have a public tantrum, you can expect to have other people react negatively to that, it really is that simple.

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Post by metasonix » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:21 pm

Nelson Baboon wrote:I actually had a chance to watch the 4 hour version, and I couldn't make it through it. I thought that it was pretty fucking superficial, an ad for eurorack, and that a few people that I don't consider to be major players, got major time. I think that after some nods to more experimental music in the first part, it fell back to mostly boring techno in the second part.
It wasn't aimed at experienced users like you, it was aimed at laymen who know nothing about electronic music. I think it's the best such documentary ever made, and the best that ever WILL be made, given the extreme technical obscurity of the subject matter. The BBC made one a few years ago, but it focused only on early pioneers.

Documentaries are an extremely fickle and tiny world within the industry, often ignored, subject to the same financial and other pressures as making giant Hollywood spectacles. With less recognition and zero wealth associated. Anyone who is pissed off about how it was handled can (at least) take comfort in knowing that Jason and Richard worked like hell for 2 years, and ended up basically broke. None of that money went for limos, hookers, or blow.

Complainers are invited to make their own videos. Money, mouth. If you do it, I would advise making a series showing how to actually use common modules. Do something people are willing to pay for.

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Post by Nelson Baboon » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:28 pm

My friend did indeed attempt to work out his difficulty directly. He shared some of the communications with me.

On the one hand, you diss the dissenters, but on the other hand, you admit that their "customer service skills suck". What exactly does this mean. Are you implying that most of us here, that value such things, would also suck at this?

I don't see (this is just how I took it) a particularly conciliatory view when the overall attitude is quite negative, but people are offered their money back. While different people place different levels of importance on the particular things that they are told when they spend money on something, it seems to me that if a manufacturer cannot, or won't live up to them, them he better be pretty humble.....

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Post by thesnow » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:54 pm

vav, yup.

nelson, you didn't have to read the entire thread. you're spot on.

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Post by elmegil » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:00 pm

Nelson Baboon wrote:On the one hand, you diss the dissenters, but on the other hand, you admit that their "customer service skills suck". What exactly does this mean. Are you implying that most of us here, that value such things, would also suck at this?

I don't see (this is just how I took it) a particularly conciliatory view when the overall attitude is quite negative, but people are offered their money back. While different people place different levels of importance on the particular things that they are told when they spend money on something, it seems to me that if a manufacturer cannot, or won't live up to them, them he better be pretty humble.....
I would say that the responses I've seen from Jason are fairly flat-footed and tone-deaf, in how you deal with upset customers. I've been on both sides of that formula, and I know what has made me feel better as the customer and what has worked best as the vendor dealing with that person. Somehow I get the sense that Jason hasn't had that experience in a way to learn how to be on the vendor side.

I think the struggles to get this accepted by a mainstream festival turned out to be much greater than anticipated--poor planning if you will--and as they cast about looking for how to recoup their investment without being able to do that, the only other visible opportunity was the many many people who were disappointed by not having been able to get in on the first run. I think they could have capitalized on that opportunity in a way that would have done a better job of satisfying those who wanted their fetish item, keeping more of the customers happy, but again, it seems to me that the customer service skills aren't there.

And it's totally within the customers' rights to be upset that they didn't get what was important to them in what they were paying for. At its most basic level they are right that they did not get what was promised, and I can't see arguing with that basic fact.

All of this is to point out that up to a point, I can at least understand the disgruntlement, even if I don't agree with it.

But I'm going to "diss them" if they throw a big tantrum about how they've been cheated and lied to, having shown no sign of effort to deal with their grievance in a more adult way. I'm going to "diss them" if they claim that they are just having a tantrum over the PRINCIPLE of the thing, because they didn't get what was promised, when really the only details that they're not getting is the opportunity to hoard (limited edition) their fetish item (hand numbered).

We're not talking about people just expressing dissatisfaction (I saw at least one person say simply "I'm going to take the refund"--perfectly reasonable reaction, I think), we're talking about people ranting about how horrible it is to have been lied to and cheated. I've had worse experiences in the crowdfunding arena than not getting some perk exactly as promised, and in this case I can see the reasons behind the perk not being exactly as promised--which don't appear to me to involve lying and cheating, by the way--and so all that seems quite petty.

Jason could have handled the situation MUCH better in many dimensions, but he didn't. I get that that sucks. But it doesn't make the tantrums any less childish.

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Post by Nelson Baboon » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:03 pm

ah. Well, I've progressed from a dime a dozen troll to an experienced user, so there is at least that progress.

The thing was that at times I put myself in the layman's shoes, and I don't think I would have had the slightest idea what was being talked about. Perhaps that will be true only for the hardcore version, but then again, that's the one I saw, and evaluated based on what was interesting to me.

Logically, the fact that none of the $ went towards hookers, etc, doesn't imply that they treated people well.

The main point again, is that I know at least one person who felt pretty aggrieved at the way he was treated. I suppose my comments as to the quality of the documentary are somewhat irrelevant to that.

But on the other hand, I don't see how more in depth commentary on some of the stuff touched upon in the first part - about imitative synthesis vs more creative soundscaping, and more contemporary notions of composition are necessarily uninteresting to the inexperienced viewer. In fact, I'd bet that there are more people with some exposure to 20th century musical developments, than are conversant with modular synth esoterica.
metasonix wrote:
Nelson Baboon wrote:I actually had a chance to watch the 4 hour version, and I couldn't make it through it. I thought that it was pretty fucking superficial, an ad for eurorack, and that a few people that I don't consider to be major players, got major time. I think that after some nods to more experimental music in the first part, it fell back to mostly boring techno in the second part.
It wasn't aimed at experienced users like you, it was aimed at laymen who know nothing about electronic music. I think it's the best such documentary ever made, and the best that ever WILL be made, given the extreme technical obscurity of the subject matter. The BBC made one a few years ago, but it focused only on early pioneers.

Documentaries are an extremely fickle and tiny world within the industry, often ignored, subject to the same financial and other pressures as making giant Hollywood spectacles. With less recognition and zero wealth associated. Anyone who is pissed off about how it was handled can (at least) take comfort in knowing that Jason and Richard worked like hell for 2 years, and ended up basically broke. None of that money went for limos, hookers, or blow.

Complainers are invited to make their own videos. Money, mouth. If you do it, I would advise making a series showing how to actually use common modules. Do something people are willing to pay for.

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Post by Nelson Baboon » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:09 pm

I guess I don't quite understand being sympathetic to feeling pissed that one didn't get what was promised, but then discounting the person because you personally don't think that the promise was important.

And the person that I know who complained to me was NOT complaining about having a collector's item, worth more as such down the road. If he wants to contribute here, then that will be fine, but I don't feel entitled.

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Post by thesnow » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:16 pm

do people seriously think this is about a dvd being worth :75: or this guy jason's sharpie on the copy? it's about principles. and arrogant, dismissive and shitty responses to people that funded the film is just shitty.

this guy tells people on facebook "take it to muffwiggler and you can go on about it as much as you want". what the fuck is that? this forum had a huge part in the making of this film and this guy wants to paint the forum that way to facebook users that have still probably never heard of the muff forum yet?

and then, things get a little heated and this guy can't take the heat and criticism so he starts a "Im taking a vacation from muffwiggler" thread? wtf.

anyway.

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Post by elmegil » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:24 pm

Nelson Baboon wrote:I guess I don't quite understand being sympathetic to feeling pissed that one didn't get what was promised, but then discounting the person because you personally don't think that the promise was important.
If that's all you got out of what I just wrote, I don't know how else to communicate what my point is. Suffice to say, while that is at the core of why I think it's petty to be pissed over this particular detail, the main reason I responded in the thread was the tantrum aspect, not the being pissed aspect. I've been pissed about petty things myself, to be honest. But I haven't had public tantrums about them (or if I have, I've tried to hide the bodies ;-) ).

Nelson Baboon wrote: And the person that I know who complained to me was NOT complaining about having a collector's item, worth more as such down the road. If he wants to contribute here, then that will be fine, but I don't feel entitled.
I'm not in any way talking about the person you've been referring to as being treated badly by Jason. I'm not trying to defend Jason as the salt of the earth, because I don't know him, and I don't know the particulars. I don't have any reason to doubt your account, nor to blindly accept it as Gospel Truth. But honestly I don't think it has any relevance in this entire thread, and so I have ignored it, and aside from you bringing it front and center here, I will continue to do so.

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Post by Nelson Baboon » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:28 pm

Well, thank you. I always appreciate being ignored for the right reasons. I suppose that this is why I still have some residual affection for my mother, god bless her baboon soul.

So, it sounds like you're not upset at the points being made, but only because they are being expressed too passionately?
elmegil wrote:
Nelson Baboon wrote:I guess I don't quite understand being sympathetic to feeling pissed that one didn't get what was promised, but then discounting the person because you personally don't think that the promise was important.
If that's all you got out of what I just wrote, I don't know how else to communicate what my point is. Suffice to say, while that is at the core of why I think it's petty to be pissed over this particular detail, the main reason I responded in the thread was the tantrum aspect, not the being pissed aspect. I've been pissed about petty things myself, to be honest. But I haven't had public tantrums about them (or if I have, I've tried to hide the bodies ;-) ).

Nelson Baboon wrote: And the person that I know who complained to me was NOT complaining about having a collector's item, worth more as such down the road. If he wants to contribute here, then that will be fine, but I don't feel entitled.
I'm not in any way talking about the person you've been referring to as being treated badly by Jason. I'm not trying to defend Jason as the salt of the earth, because I don't know him, and I don't know the particulars. I don't have any reason to doubt your account, nor to blindly accept it as Gospel Truth. But honestly I don't think it has any relevance in this entire thread, and so I have ignored it, and aside from you bringing it front and center here, I will continue to do so.

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