Alyseum MS-812

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New MS-812 Emulator available foe MAC & PC

Post by AlyseumSupport » Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:23 am

It's all in the title!

There's a new version of the MS-812 Emulator with the new features.
This version is available for MAC and for Windows computers.

Download the MAC version here and the PC version here

Enjoy!

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Re: New MS-812 Emulator available foe MAC & PC

Post by drip.feed » Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:27 pm

AlyseumSupport wrote:It's all in the title!

There's a new version of the MS-812 Emulator with the new features.
This version is available for MAC and for Windows computers.

Download the MAC version here and the PC version here

Enjoy!
Damn, this looks fantastic! This looks even better than Expert Sleepers' ES-3 and 4. Any near-term plans for a plugin suite like Expert Sleeper's Silent Way?
Dripfeed

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Re: New MS-812 Emulator available foe MAC & PC

Post by AlyseumSupport » Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:57 pm

drip.feed wrote:Damn, this looks fantastic! This looks even better than Expert Sleepers' ES-3 and 4. Any near-term plans for a plugin suite like Expert Sleeper's Silent Way?
Thank you for your warm comments. :party:

There is something else than a plug-in suite coming for the MS-812.
We are currently validating a plug-in that acts as a Proxy for the MS-812.

A Proxy is an application that plugs to your computer's Host application and gives you the impression that the actual (physical) MS-812 is within your computer.
You have full control over the voltages generated by the MS-812 and this in high-resolution.

This setup: Host<>Proxy<>CopperLan network<>MS812 allows you to control the signals of the MS-812 from any MIDI or CopperLan source, in addition to its Host control, and record the end result into the Host.
Simultaneously, you can monitor (and edit) the signals from the CopperLan Manager freeware.

Of course, you can play a single MS-812 from multiple Proxies, even located on separate computers.
When pointing to the same section of the MS-812 (mono or poly) they will be synchronized. When pointing to separate sections, they will act independently.

The Proxy is already validated on the following Hosts:
  • FL Studio (PC)
    Energy XT (PC)
    Numerology (MAC)
    MAX-MSP (PC)
The MS-812 Proxy-plugin will be available next week in AU (MAC) and VST (PC) versions as a Freeware :tu:

It is developed by an enthusiastic user and is not a commercial product.
More details next week...

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Re: New MS-812 Emulator available foe MAC & PC

Post by os » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:05 am

drip.feed wrote:This looks even better than Expert Sleepers' ES-3 and 4.
Wow, it must be good! :razz:

Of course, as I understand it there's nothing stopping Silent Way being able to talk to the Alyseum hardware. Alyseum guys, what's the status of the API etc. for that?

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Re: New MS-812 Emulator available foe MAC & PC

Post by AlyseumSupport » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:56 am

os wrote:
drip.feed wrote:This looks even better than Expert Sleepers' ES-3 and 4.
Wow, it must be good! :razz:
:wink:
os wrote: Of course, as I understand it there's nothing stopping Silent Way being able to talk to the Alyseum hardware. Alyseum guys, what's the status of the API etc. for that?
Sure, CopperLan is not ours and is available to all.
Our hardware is simply compliant with the CopperLan protocol.
As soon as you have the CopperLan package on your computer you can access the MS-812 from any MIDI app or interface, but also from CopperLan apps, interfaces or dedicated hardware.

For CopperLan capable computer apps it's not our domain.
The developer of the MS-812 Proxy is a fellow from the CopperLan team. I'll drop him a word about your request. He will answer much better than me.

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Post by os » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:59 am

Thanks.

When I spoke to the Copperlan guys at the Musikmesse, the killer for me was that they're charging for use of the SDK. I can't see any concrete information on their website about whether that's still the case. (It says you don't have to pay a royalty to use it in freeware, but it doesn't actually say that you have to pay to use it in commercial software.)

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Post by CopperPhil » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:55 am

os wrote:Thanks.

When I spoke to the Copperlan guys at the Musikmesse, the killer for me was that they're charging for use of the SDK. I can't see any concrete information on their website about whether that's still the case. (It says you don't have to pay a royalty to use it in freeware, but it doesn't actually say that you have to pay to use it in commercial software.)
Hi!

Well I don't know if it was me, the guy at Musikmesse :-) Anyway, you got bad information (perhaps I was not clear enough if you talked with me, my voice was broken from day 2 :confused: ).

There never was any charge associated with the SDK! We even have a SDK for freeware products... free of charge of course. The cost detail for commercial products is explained here.

I've published some demo applications on sourceforge, based on the freeware SDK. And I'm going to create a new entry for the MS-812 Proxy shortly, so you'll see a complete example on how to control the MS-812 remotely. The plugin's skin in ugly, but it's working fine 8_) The great thing is you can use the MS-812 Emulator to test/evaluate the solution!

Anyway, I'm always there if you need additional information on CopperLan, on how to use it, on how to make cool products... do not hesitate to ask :-)

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Post by os » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:02 am

The page you linked says
Royalty due per unit sold according to the price list ( from 0€ to 2€ max.)
but there's no price list, or link to one.

Basically I'm just trying to find out if I would have to pay to put Copperlan support in my plug-ins. If I do, I almost certainly won't bother. I don't have to pay Steinberg for the VST SDK, nor Apple for the AU SDK - I don't see why I need to pay to promote a fledgling protocol that needs all the exposure it can get.

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Post by CopperPhil » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:54 am

If your product is a commercial product, there is a licence fee per unit. Feel free to contact CopperLan for more info about that.

But technically CopperLan is not comparable to VST or AU SDK, nor to MIDI protocol... it is not a small piece of code to include in your app or a spec to implement in order to control a single MS-812. It is a complete turnkey communication framework, multiplatform, plug&play, zero config, allowing the MS-812 to auto-describe itself, ensuring feedback and synchronization with any controller pointing simultaneously to it, high res, high speed, very low latency, reliable, flexible, and so on... with CopperLan you can mix multiple computers/MS-812/other hardwares devices and use them just as is was all in a single machine...

Anyway I do not want to convince you to use CopperLan, but people's perception is often mistaken and I want to help understanding what it is really.
Last edited by CopperPhil on Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by mono-poly » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:56 am

Someone should come up with an IOS device to send "midi" data directly to a coperlan device without the use of an extra computer.
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Post by os » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:17 am

I understand that Copperlan is a fairly extensive bit of code, I just think the business model is a bit broken at this point.

I would've thought you'd want to get as many people on board as possible - to get every bit of music software possible to support your protocol, so you could then build something really cool to work with it all and then charge for that.

Asking a plug-in developer to give you money per unit sold, when maybe only a handful of people will ever use the Copperlan functionality, seems like a bit of a non-starter. If it were free, developers would be more inclined to drop it in and see if anything interesting came of it.

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Post by CopperPhil » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:33 am

mono-poly wrote:Someone should come up with an IOS device to send "midi" data directly to a coperlan device without the use of an extra computer.
Yes, I'm dreaming about that for a while :-) but there is a technical lock: it's not possible to handle raw sockets in iOS...

BTW we'll be present at the NAMM (booth E13), and we should have a meeting with Apple guys to see how to make it possible to install the CopperLan engine under iOS. It definitively makes sense to bring hi-res messaging into the iOS device in addition to the MIDI patching over CopperLan.

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Post by CopperPhil » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:48 am

os wrote:...I would've thought you'd want to get as many people on board as possible - to get every bit of music software possible to support your protocol, so you could then build something really cool to work with it all and then charge for that.
The business model of CopperLan is not to push the users/developers into a trap: "Get it for free today and be squeezed tomorrow once you are addicted." :hmm:

A whole team worked on this development for over ten years. There is much more in it than it seems at first view!
os wrote:Asking a plug-in developer to give you money per unit sold, when maybe only a handful of people will ever use the Copperlan functionality, seems like a bit of a non-starter. If it were free, developers would be more inclined to drop it in and see if anything interesting came of it.
We are not against cost free things, this is why there is a freeware SDK.

And so if you really like to have CopperLan in your software cost free, give it for free too instead of selling it. Why should we bear a loss when your product will benefit of added functionality, improving your sales and visibility? :confused: Anyway, in case of software supporting CopperLan but not built around it (such as CopperLanized plugin), it is very easy to disable the CopperLan stuff in order to build two versions: with and without CopperLan, sold at different prices.

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Post by os » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:52 am

OK, we clearly have different views on who has the most to gain if an existing product starts supporting Copperlan :)

But you make a reasonable point about it being possible to charge extra for a Copperlan-capable version. When a user actually asks me for that, I guess I'll consider it.

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Post by mono-poly » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:06 pm

CopperPhil wrote:
mono-poly wrote:Someone should come up with an IOS device to send "midi" data directly to a coperlan device without the use of an extra computer.
Yes, I'm dreaming about that for a while :-) but there is a technical lock: it's not possible to handle raw sockets in iOS...

BTW we'll be present at the NAMM (booth E13), and we should have a meeting with Apple guys to see how to make it possible to install the CopperLan engine under iOS. It definitively makes sense to bring hi-res messaging into the iOS device in addition to the MIDI patching over CopperLan.
Well the hardware just needs to fool the ipad thinking it's a midi device.
Instead it sends data over lan to the Alyseum unit.
The farad is the captain of my print.

http://www.mono-poly.nl
http://www.noodlebar.org

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Post by CopperPhil » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:07 pm

mono-poly wrote:Well the hardware just needs to fool the ipad thinking it's a midi device.
Instead it sends data over lan to the Alyseum unit.
Yes indeed, it is a solution, but in this case the communication is limited by MIDI... you can't control the MS-812 in hi-res nor enjoy enhanced musicality features. Except if this module is able to handle one of the MIDI trick to get a higher resolution in a common way with every application...

I think it's better to find a way to install the CopperLan engine into the iOS device. This allows to fully exploit the MS-812 capabilities... wireless. But this solution is not possible for now and require CopperLanized applications, the hardware option may be worth exploring at first, indeed...

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Post by miminashi » Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:10 pm

The proxy plugin for the MS-812 sounds excellent. It might seem redundant, but what are the chances of a similar plugin for your MIDI interfaces? I'd love to be able to circumvent Windows' MIDI handling entirely.

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Post by AlyseumSupport » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:26 am

miminashi wrote:The proxy plugin for the MS-812 sounds excellent. It might seem redundant, but what are the chances of a similar plugin for your MIDI interfaces? I'd love to be able to circumvent Windows' MIDI handling entirely.
It remains to evaluate the real benefit of such alternative, both in terms of performance gain but also user's perception and acceptance.
We should see with the CopperLan guys what they think.

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Post by taniel » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:57 am

...
Last edited by taniel on Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by CopperPhil » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:18 am

Just a short update about the Proxy:

As promised, it is available before the NAMM from here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/ms812proxy/

VST plugin for Windows, AU plugin for Mac, and source code only for Windows at this time... I have to fix a small packaging issue under MacOS related to the CopperLan freeware SDK dylib. Meanwhile I've uploaded a temporary version not using this dylib.

I still have to do a huge cosmetic work, and to implement some other ideas (I guess the list will grow during the NAMM)... this is aimed to be a living project, anyone wanting to participate is welcome! :-)

Some interesting points about this proxy:
- in addition to the mono/poly/drum "smart modes", the MS-812 can be controlled in "Direct Access". So you can map any MIDI CC to any MS-812 output using the DirectControl section and learn mode... but with a 7 bits resolution of course. More interesting, in direct mode the proxy exposes parameters that can be use for hi-res control. I'm using them for the NAMM demo to control the MS-812 from Numerology 3 in hi-res (thanks to the paramMod module mapping Numerology internal CV to a plugin parameter).
- MIDI incoming from the host is translated to CopperLan and sent to the MS-812. It's not a special feature of this plugin, you can also do it using the CopperLan Virtual MIDI ports installed with the CopperLan package. But it's more easy to have it embedded in the plugin ;-)
- You can launch multiple proxies in multiple hosts located on multiple computers (even a mix of Mac/PC), all of them pointing to the same MS-812. It's up to you to imagine applications... I'm sure you'll finally find a cool use case ;-)
- You can use an external controller (MIDI USB keyboard or whatever) through the host, of course... but more interesting: you can bind simultaneously multiple (MIDI or CopperLan) controllers directly to the MS-812 from everywhere. Any parameter change is automatically reflected to the proxy (and monitoring device, and any editor pointing to this parameter...) thanks to the CopperLan current parameter value synchronization over the network. So any action performed from any controller on the MS-812 can be automated by the proxy host!

I'll shoot "how to" videos as soon I've some time ahead. Stay in touch! :-)

and, as usual, any idea, any suggestion... any question of course are welcome!

ps: for the DIY guys, do not miss this :-) http://www.copperduino.com/index.php/sh ... monitoring

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Post by Senor » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:26 am

:tu:

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taniel
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Post by taniel » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:30 am

The MS-812 is such an amazing module that offers so many possibilities and I
was wondering if there is a way to use it with MAX/MSP? I would love to create
MAX patches that emulate other modules and use them with MS-812. Or just
to use the MS-812 to output simple LFOs and envelopes.

I bought the module right after it came out and I imagined that the
implementation of MAX patches would be one of the first things to happen, but
so far this has not happened... or am I wrong?
When can we expect anything in that direction?

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Post by AlyseumSupport » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:39 pm

taniel wrote:The MS-812 is such an amazing module that offers so many possibilities and I
was wondering if there is a way to use it with MAX/MSP? I would love to create
MAX patches that emulate other modules and use them with MS-812. Or just
to use the MS-812 to output simple LFOs and envelopes.

I bought the module right after it came out and I imagined that the
implementation of MAX patches would be one of the first things to happen, but
so far this has not happened... or am I wrong?
When can we expect anything in that direction?
Thank you for kind words.
Regarding the linking to MAX, you're ahead of our official announcement. :hihi:
We were waiting for the CopperLan 1.1 upgrade to benefit from its added features.
We should be ready by the time it is out.

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Post by taniel » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:24 am

Thanks for this insider information. That is great news! I'm looking forward to your official announcement.

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Post by taniel » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:55 am

The mandatory update "ALYSEUM__Mandatory Upgrade V1.0.zip" seems to
only work on Windows. Is there no need to update as a Mac user?

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