Release on vinyl, why bother

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felixer
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Post by felixer » Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:11 am

GrantB wrote:If your records are audibly degrading from play... yer doin it wrong
bullshit. it's a mechanical medium/proces, so there is bound to be wear/decay. you're scraping pvc (a fairly soft material) with a diamond/saffier needle. you think this will hold forever??? and as you're doing that the pvc heats up. making it even more vulnarable. so playing the same part twice in quick succession is even worse.
same with tape that gets dragged over anything. apart from magnetic interference the mechanical act will cause wear/decay.
don't need midi, don't need keys, just want knobs and cables (all together now ;-)

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Post by tesserack » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:33 am

Quote:"Any sort of nonsense about vinyl being a superior medium because it's analog is just that: nonsense."

:hihi: Try separating seeds on a digital download and see what happens. :party:

Vinyl is a very tactile experience, as well as stimulating the other senses of hearing and vision. There is also the social aspect of actually leaving the house and interacting with people along the chosen path traveled on the way to the record store.

I enjoy vinyl scratches and all.

" drawing me near to a path that is clear, to free myself from Darkness" Paul Winter

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Post by felixer » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:21 pm

tesserack wrote:
Vinyl is a very tactile experience, as well as stimulating the other senses of hearing and vision. There is also the social aspect of actually leaving the house and interacting with people along the chosen path traveled on the way to the record store.
maybe, but were talking plain audio quality here. not fetish ...
and i'm sure you can do some fun things with vinyl you can't do with digital media, but i'm pretty happy with cd's, thankyouverymuch. and even happier with 24bit .wav's. mp3 not so much but that also depends on how they were made ... most people don't understand the process and expect 90% compression to produce decent results.
what often isn't mentioned is that long pieces of music (>30 min) can now finally be heard. without the interruption of turning the disk around.
don't need midi, don't need keys, just want knobs and cables (all together now ;-)

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Post by gruebleengourd » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:27 pm

The Grump wrote: Putting out vinyl is a pricey undertaking so people tend to hold the material to a higher standard.
in theory, one might think this would be true, but a big reason why I've stopped buying vinyl is the dearth of new releases that I'd actually want to own as a physical copy. Almost all the new interesting music I find these days is via digital, and while there may be a vinyl release, almost nothing has been such that I felt like I needed to have to record.

I went from buying hundreds of records a year to 1 or 2. Essentially what happened is that electronic music has gone digital and there aren't really any vinyl shops, even in NYC, that make browsing for new music on vinyl worthwhile.


If I was into buying backcatalog stuff used, then I could see vinyl being a factor, but anything new on vinyl is almost suspicious to me, unless it's purely for collectors.

People who talk about special vinyl only techno releases, it's kinda funny. There is so much electronic music out there and production tools are so available, and the archive of releases to know is so available, for every precious vinyl only release there are bound to be 100 more easily attainable ones equally special that you could find digitally.

There was an era when it was by far the most sensible way of hearing the coolest most cutting edge music. That's no longer the case.

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umma gumma
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Post by umma gumma » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:40 pm

those are all great points!

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Post by felixer » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:20 pm

i 'went digital' when the new stockhausen stuff was only released on cd. got the first two boxes without even owning a player( as the first gen didn't sound particularly good, back in the early 80ies). the main reason he did that was prob the playingtime. and stockhausen production always had a prestine soundquality. i really don't want that with scratches and surfacenoise. can't imagine anybody wanting that, really ...
now if you happen to be into old rock&roll, blues or jazz, maybe ... you'd prob want some old wurlitzer jukebox to play 'm too ...
don't need midi, don't need keys, just want knobs and cables (all together now ;-)

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Post by CF3 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:40 pm

Vinyl is a luxury item nowadays. Like $6 lattes.

The arguments about "superior" sound quality are kind of silly and not very technical minded (look up what the frequency range of wax is). Vinyl does indeed wear out from repeated use also (it's the reason I have x4 copies of certain records). I still love it as medium, and the tactile natural is indeed nice to work with, but it's not practical in many situations and I definitely don't miss lugging around 50 lb record cases. You know how many records I bought for ONE song? From a sheerly economic point of view it doesn't make sense, unless you're just collecting stuff. When I hear 20 somethings waxing poetic about puritanical all-vinyl DJ sets... I just laugh to myself honestly (as if "back in the day" the DJ sets where better somehow). I can't wait until they're all in their mid 40's and they have to move a few 1000 records.... Make sure to lift with your knees! :hihi:

In all seriousness, god bless people still releasing shit on vinyl. It's nice to know it's still out there.

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Post by tesserack » Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:02 pm

felixer wrote:
tesserack wrote:
Vinyl is a very tactile experience, as well as stimulating the other senses of hearing and vision. There is also the social aspect of actually leaving the house and interacting with people along the chosen path traveled on the way to the record store.
maybe, but were talking plain audio quality here. not fetish ...
and i'm sure you can do some fun things with vinyl you can't do with digital media, but i'm pretty happy with cd's, thankyouverymuch. and even happier with 24bit .wav's. mp3 not so much but that also depends on how they were made ... most people don't understand the process and expect 90% compression to produce decent results.
what often isn't mentioned is that long pieces of music (>30 min) can now finally be heard. without the interruption of turning the disk around.
how you came to the conclusion that fetish is the proper word for what I described in my post mystifies me.

In humans all our senses are connected, one influences the other. The smell of food influences how that food tastes, for example.how food is presented on a plate may also influence how the Taste is perceived, hence the emphasis on an expensive restaurant 'plating' the food, making it look nice as if food presentation was an art form.

In the same sense the tactile experience of handling vinyl can influence how the sound quality of vinyl is perceived.

In your example, turning a record over may contribute to your perception of audio quality because turning a record over apparently interrupts your listening experience.


The perception of sound quality is a subjective experience, and certainly the perception of sound quality is influenced by other factors other than just hearing the sound.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC400748

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Post by thevegasnerve » Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:32 pm

If you really love the recordings you make, I say put it out on vinyl and let a professional master it. Assuming you are not entirely broke, forgetabout the $$ and do it for the experience. Your kids will thank you one day. Shoot I may thank you if it's that good... :tu:

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Post by Swann » Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:13 pm

In terms of quality, degradation aside, it is still clearly worlds above streaming audio and mp3's. As digital memory and bandwidth specs continue to increase that gap will close up a bit and who knows whether new mediums and codecs will show up.

Some people argue subjectivity over the sound discussion and want science to back claims, but if it sounds good, it sounds good. The persistence of Vinyl and Tape mediums have been a continuous driver for the "Analog is Better" argument since digital came in because they sound really good despite their flaws.

There is something to be said for the tangible elements, bigger artwork, something you can hold and catalog. In a world now completely saturated with digital downloads and streaming it's like wading through an ocean of crap with a few elusive candies floating on top(I'm talkin' Nerd sized candies). If I see an independent release on vinyl, I get a feel that the artist has taken the time to make something special, if the music is good, I'm happy to give them my money and I get something real in return. Criminy, don't get me started on streaming.... :guinness:

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Post by GrantB » Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:29 pm

felixer wrote:
GrantB wrote:If your records are audibly degrading from play... yer doin it wrong
bullshit. it's a mechanical medium/proces, so there is bound to be wear/decay. you're scraping pvc (a fairly soft material) with a diamond/saffier needle. you think this will hold forever??? and as you're doing that the pvc heats up. making it even more vulnarable. so playing the same part twice in quick succession is even worse.
same with tape that gets dragged over anything. apart from magnetic interference the mechanical act will cause wear/decay.
I'm not saying there's no wear, I'm saying that in my experience, with proper care etc., it's not significantly audible over the decades I've been playing my records. I've bought NM copies of ones I've had for a long time and don't find a significant difference. If you've actually worn out records to the point you can hear it, just by playing them, you've done something wrong.

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Post by tesserack » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:43 pm

Quote"Some people argue subjectivity over the sound discussion and want science to back claims, but if it sounds good, it sounds good. The persistence of Vinyl and Tape mediums have been a continuous driver for the "Analog is Better" argument since digital came in because they sound really good despite their flaws. "

This paragraph of your post had me thinking about all of the digital processors out there that try to mimic the analog domain.

There's a multitude of digital processors out there that try to mimic tape saturation, wow and flutter, for example. There's even digital fx versions of record scratches.

Just about every digital Reverb out there is trying to mimic analog Springs or analog plates or try to capture the sound of a room which is about as analog as you can get.

And just think of all the digital modeling synthesizers out there that try to mimic the sound of analog synthesizers.

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Post by felixer » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:37 am

tesserack wrote:
felixer wrote:
tesserack wrote:
Vinyl is a very tactile experience, as well as stimulating the other senses of hearing and vision. There is also the social aspect of actually leaving the house and interacting with people along the chosen path traveled on the way to the record store.
maybe, but were talking plain audio quality here. not fetish ...
and i'm sure you can do some fun things with vinyl you can't do with digital media, but i'm pretty happy with cd's, thankyouverymuch. and even happier with 24bit .wav's. mp3 not so much but that also depends on how they were made ... most people don't understand the process and expect 90% compression to produce decent results.
what often isn't mentioned is that long pieces of music (>30 min) can now finally be heard. without the interruption of turning the disk around.
how you came to the conclusion that fetish is the proper word for what I described in my post mystifies me.

In humans all our senses are connected, one influences the other. The smell of food influences how that food tastes, for example.how food is presented on a plate may also influence how the Taste is perceived, hence the emphasis on an expensive restaurant 'plating' the food, making it look nice as if food presentation was an art form.

In the same sense the tactile experience of handling vinyl can influence how the sound quality of vinyl is perceived.

In your example, turning a record over may contribute to your perception of audio quality because turning a record over apparently interrupts your listening experience.


The perception of sound quality is a subjective experience, and certainly the perception of sound quality is influenced by other factors other than just hearing the sound.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC400748
fetish to me is anything not to do with the primary goal. in this case: listening to music. it is like your example of food: the primary goal is to get nurishment: keep the engine running. all other considerations are secondary and might develop into a fetish when it takes over the primary function. going to that expensive restaurant may not even be about food, but about social issues!
don't need midi, don't need keys, just want knobs and cables (all together now ;-)

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Post by thevegasnerve » Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:05 am

I dont listen to music on vinyl, but a while back I was really shocked at the difference in sound when I had a turntable for a little bit. It sounded noticeably different, very interesting to the mind/ears. Same goes for tape, it just feels really good, probably mostly due to the removal of some of that harshness digital can deliver. And probably even more to do with the production to start with... We have taken out a lot of the professionals from our recording equation, and it is obvious in the final products. I dont think fetish applies in this case, this is not a so called hipster thing. And I think its worth it for the OP to experience the process of recording to vinyl, just for education if nothing else. Same goes for tape, you have to experience it to understand the pro/cons (there are both).

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Post by phase ghost » Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:09 pm

Yeggman wrote:Loads and loads of stuff, especially dance music from Europe, are released as limited vinyl-only pressings.
I know. It's a real shame when I have to pirate these releases instead of paying the artist for a digital download. I usually hear the good releases when it's too late, and see the record going for $50 on discogs. Um, no. I'll just steal it if there's no digital release. I still buy the occasional vinyl, but generally in album form (and used).

I bought lots and lots of dance singles in the 90's / early 2000's, but most records stores have since went out of business. Which was half the fun of buying a record. Getting records shipped sucks. Additionally, the price for a single has doubled since then. So, moving on to digital only made sense.

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Post by rhythmdial » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:01 pm

phase ghost wrote:Getting records shipped sucks. Additionally, the price for a single has doubled
damn right it is so damn expensive now I cant even understand it, but some vendors/labels/sellers will cut me a deal if I ask and they have a way to make it happen, then I am all in for a vinyl grab.

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Post by felixer » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:37 pm

thevegasnerve wrote:I dont listen to music on vinyl, but a while back I was really shocked at the difference in sound when I had a turntable for a little bit. It sounded noticeably different, very interesting to the mind/ears. Same goes for tape, it just feels really good, probably mostly due to the removal of some of that harshness digital can deliver. And probably even more to do with the production to start with... We have taken out a lot of the professionals from our recording equation, and it is obvious in the final products. I dont think fetish applies in this case, this is not a so called hipster thing. And I think its worth it for the OP to experience the process of recording to vinyl, just for education if nothing else. Same goes for tape, you have to experience it to understand the pro/cons (there are both).
yeah, the art of mastering. the worst cd's are from tapes mastered for vinyl (with all the lows cut off). that is where a lot of back-catalogue started before they went into 'remastering'. and charged extra for it.

and yeah, it prob is good to have the experience of vinyl. i still have my old turntable and lots of records. often the cd too. and sometimes there are differences in the mix as some (eg frank zappa) took the opportunity not only to remaster but to remix certain albums.
i just gave away a cd by alan parsons who really fucked up the nicest bit on his first album when going for a cd release :bang:
don't need midi, don't need keys, just want knobs and cables (all together now ;-)

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Post by thevegasnerve » Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:06 am

Felixer, yeah, to be clear, I am not for going in reverse with vinyl and tape only. That seems impractical and not even necessarily a good idea from a fidelity standpoint. But there are times when the old mediums seem to capture the vibe perfectly. I suspect most of this is the performance/recording techniques really. When I had a reel to reel in the 80s, I was recording most everything through API pres/eqs through my trusty Mackie 1604 board. Now I too tend to push my digital recording devices like I did with tape, just old habits....

It takes experience to know the difference of cassette vs 1/2 inch reel to reel for example, but you will lose something with both for certain types of sound design (much less with 1/2" tape. I have never had a release on vinyl, but would like to do it just to hear the difference and for the experience of working with a different pro mastering it, etc...

But I prefer CDs personally over digital downloads, and offers me the opportunity to place it on any device I want. I rarely listen to digital downloads too much....

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Post by jtregoat » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:28 pm

i'm pressing to wax for DJs. it's a slow burn, but if it's a half decent record and it has the right distro, you can sell 300. at least in the techno world

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