Emptyset's feedback loop techniques

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thetwlo
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Post by thetwlo » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:17 am

ambientnoise wrote:Lol funny how you guys are trying to find the Emptyset sound using eurorack even though they don’t use any modular whatsoever.
why is that? they want to EXPAND on THAT sound, not copy it. They don't want to sound exactly like EMPTYSET, as you suggest. that would be fucking stupid. But you persist. on them doing it the same, why?

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Post by mt3 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:04 am

Spectromat wrote:I was interested by something mt3 said.. regarding the "Pan Sonic approach" I would be very interested in any light you could shine on Pan Sonic's techniques, if anyone is able to? Thanks :)
[video][/video]

Off the top of my head (this is for their early period)...
* subsonics, LFOs
* simple function generators (i.e., test equipment), sine waves
* inaudible, yet physical sound
* etc.

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Post by Paranormal Patroler » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:09 am

* inaudible, yet physical sound
What do you mean by that?
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Post by mt3 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:51 pm

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
* inaudible, yet physical sound
What do you mean by that?
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Post by ambientnoise » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:09 pm

thetwlo wrote:
ambientnoise wrote:Lol funny how you guys are trying to find the Emptyset sound using eurorack even though they don’t use any modular whatsoever.
why is that? they want to EXPAND on THAT sound, not copy it. They don't want to sound exactly like EMPTYSET, as you suggest. that would be fucking stupid. But you persist. on them doing it the same, why?
lol triggered

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Post by Spectromat » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:13 am

mt3 wrote:Off the top of my head (this is for their early period)...
* subsonics, LFOs
* simple function generators (i.e., test equipment), sine waves
* inaudible, yet physical sound
* etc.
Thanks, yeah I was aware of those elements in Pan sonic's past. I had thought by what you said that there was a specific side chain feedback technique that they were using to add something to their sounds..

But no worries as I got to watch a great documentary on them thanks to you :tu:

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Emptyset on the Pro 2

Post by FuzzyWuzzy » Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:02 am

iVardensphere has an awesome YouTube tutorial in which he details rhythmic sound design on the Pro 2 that's worth checking out as well. In the end, he even goes through some Emptyset inspired patches he made.

[video][/video]
Last edited by FuzzyWuzzy on Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Emptyset on the Pro 2

Post by mt3 » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:49 am

FuzzyWuzzy wrote:iVardensphere has an awesome YouTube tutorial in which he details rhythmic sound design on the Pro 2 that's worth checking out as well. In the end, he even goes through some Emptyset inspired patches he made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TJSgoLpxDo
:party:

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Re:

Post by vidret » Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:29 pm

PhineasFreak wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:21 am
cptnal wrote:
PhineasFreak wrote:
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
PhineasFreak wrote:the only part real hard to achieve in modular is knee because the knee is defined by the curve of the envelope followers and env follows with variable curve arent too common in euro...
You could pass the Envelope follower's output via a Slew I guess.
that would give you a shallower curve on a generally natural log or expo curve, but i'd love to be able to patch together something with those real hard knee sudden change in gradient damn near 90* angles...
Thinking out loud... Two compression-versions into a crossfader controlled by a comparator...? :hmm:
if i coud findan envelope follower with any response curve other than expo that seem like a p damn good solution...
I might be completely wrong here since it hasn’t been suggested already but isn’t this exactly what maths/double andore/a lot of stuff does?

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Re: Re:

Post by PhineasFreak » Sat Mar 14, 2020 6:05 am

vidret wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:29 pm
PhineasFreak wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:21 am
cptnal wrote:
PhineasFreak wrote:
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
PhineasFreak wrote:the only part real hard to achieve in modular is knee because the knee is defined by the curve of the envelope followers and env follows with variable curve arent too common in euro...
You could pass the Envelope follower's output via a Slew I guess.
that would give you a shallower curve on a generally natural log or expo curve, but i'd love to be able to patch together something with those real hard knee sudden change in gradient damn near 90* angles...
Thinking out loud... Two compression-versions into a crossfader controlled by a comparator...? :hmm:
if i coud findan envelope follower with any response curve other than expo that seem like a p damn good solution...
I might be completely wrong here since it hasn’t been suggested already but isn’t this exactly what maths/double andore/a lot of stuff does?
somebody somewhere pointed out the other day you can patch the whole thing with just maths/any dusg - i dont have either to write out the patch right now

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Re:

Post by Technologear? » Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:17 am

mt3 wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:15 am
:party:
:sb:
+1! This track is awesome! Glad I went through this thread.

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Re:

Post by orangehexagon » Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:18 pm

ambientnoise wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:09 pm
thetwlo wrote:
ambientnoise wrote:Lol funny how you guys are trying to find the Emptyset sound using eurorack even though they don’t use any modular whatsoever.
why is that? they want to EXPAND on THAT sound, not copy it. They don't want to sound exactly like EMPTYSET, as you suggest. that would be fucking stupid. But you persist. on them doing it the same, why?
lol triggered
careful my dude you are treading on the "don't be a dick" rule of the forum.

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Re: Emptyset's feedback loop techniques

Post by stk » Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:04 pm

Well this forgotten thread popped up when I was researching something else, so I thought I'd leave this here.. Working on some ES-inspired textures to use in a secret film project.

Purely sine wave and white noise, sent through a bunch of different processes, mainly dynamics and saturation, and also a bit of delay to simulate the mixer feedback. The Soundcloud encoding has knocked back a bit of the bottom end, at full quality my windows are shaking :sb:


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Re: Emptyset's feedback loop techniques

Post by Funky40 » Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:58 am

is think the trick with the "emptyset approach" is that the good tracks from them consist of many elements which are stitched together.
thats where i see one of their main crafts: to stich different elements together so that they feel as beeing one.

@stk
that sounds great ! ......btw. would be interesting to hear if your processing was ITB ?


i personally liked this album the most at the time i was checking it, and its what i have




in general on that matter:
i personally stumbled sometimes over similar sounds (like ES) just by patching my modular, *without* any goal to go there.
I could not tell how to make such sounds, but i definitly know that many approaches work.

But just to have that type of sounds is in my opinion not the whole deal.
there is a way bigger depth to it in the whole, ...which creates the magic. (see phrase 1 in this post)
Some tracks have a immense dramaturgy to it.......and then the whole album also, like it was one travel,
which creates even more magic


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Re: Emptyset's feedback loop techniques

Post by dragulasbruder » Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:15 am

stk wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:04 pm
Working on some ES-inspired textures to use in a secret film project.
whoa that sounds sick
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Re: Emptyset's feedback loop techniques

Post by stk » Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:28 am

dragulasbruder wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:15 am
whoa that sounds sick
Cheers :)
Funky40 wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:58 am
is think the trick with the "emptyset approach" is that the good tracks from them consist of many elements which are stitched together.
thats where i see one of their main crafts: to stich different elements together so that they feel as beeing one.

@stk
that sounds great ! ......btw. would be interesting to hear if your processing was ITB ?
I also suspect that there is quite a bit of editing to "construct" their tracks into a narrative flow.

I totally forgot to mention - yes this is 100% in the box.
I spent ~2 hours today playing about with chaining and routing plugins in FLStudio, and it just kind of clicked for me (plugins are U-he Satin and Presswerk, Waves Kramer Tape, Waves API 550A EQ, Sound Toys Little Plate).

I spend at least an hour going through all my "analogue modelled" plugins, slamming each one hard to see how it reacted under massive overload, and from there started chaining and experimenting.

Previously I spent a couple days trying to get something going with my small collection of hardware, but was quite disappointed with the results. The distortion never sounded right, and my studio is plagued with a high frequency whine from the computer which bleeds into everything hardware.. And I don't any high-end tube hardware..

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Re: Emptyset's feedback loop techniques

Post by Paranormal Patroler » Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:48 am

Would you care to expand upon the "patch" that created the end result? You simply nailed it. Is it just sound sources (noise, sine waves), distortion, and compressors?
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Re: Emptyset's feedback loop techniques

Post by stk » Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:10 am

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:48 am
Would you care to expand upon the "patch" that created the end result? You simply nailed it. Is it just sound sources (noise, sine waves), distortion, and compressors?
Yep just sine wave and white noise. It's actually an instance of 3xOsc, which is a super simple FLStudio synth plugin, set to output sine and noise simultaneously.

This signal then hits two parallel chains, each of which which consists of some tape sims for distortion, then some EQ and finally a compressor. Each chain has different settings - the timbral changes you hear are me manually muting one or the other, or playing them simultaneously.
There's an aux send to a tape delay which is causing some feedback that swells up in the breaks, and another to reverb, the level of which is being sidechained by the main signal, which is why it cuts in and out dynamically.

There's no "real" feedback happening as FLStudio does not allow this. I suspect I could get things behaving in a more reactive way if I introduced feedback into this, so might need to try to recreate the "patch" in a more flexible environment.

Please excuse me if I don't go into exacting detail of the settings right now. I've only just built this today, and want to explore it some more for this film project I'm doing sound for.
I must say that I was actually more inspired by that Doom video in setting up the parallel chains and seeing how they react when pumelled with extreme levels.

I'd say the important bit was - as mentioned - trying out every "analogue" style plugin I have under load, to see if they produce interesting sounds when pushed way beyond normal operating levels.

Cheers

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Re: Emptyset's feedback loop techniques

Post by Paranormal Patroler » Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:37 am

Much appreciated, this should be more than enough to get me started. I'm not using computers, but I should have or find enough stuff in the modular to come up with something. Again, thanks a ton for getting into as much detail as you feel comfortable sharing.
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Re: Emptyset's feedback loop techniques

Post by stk » Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:09 pm

No worries, I look forward to hearing what you come up with.
If I were to summarise the whole approach, it would be; distortion for texture, eq to refine & shape this texture, and compression for transient shaping.

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Re: Emptyset's feedback loop techniques

Post by dragulasbruder » Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:26 pm

more on patching compressors, from a very familiar pair of hands:


A cool technique to be sure, but patching up this way is using an incredible amount of gear--seems like a dedicated module or an outboard compressor is maybe the way to go.

To Phineas Freak's point above--yes, it's possible to do a lot of this with just a DUSG-style slew. Particularly with Maths--you can use CH2+3 as a full-wave rectifier at OR output, slew this with CH1, invert, and clamp a biased VCA.

This "reverse envelope-follower" compressor will have an infinitely low threshold and a very finnicky attack/release, so if you want a "real" compressor, you'll need a comparator and Maths CH4 as well. Compare the non-inverted output to a static voltage (hope your comparator is normalized!), then slew that gate with CH4 of Maths. Apply negative version of CH4 to biased VCA, as above.

I still don't understand how this "real" compressor would deal with ratio, because the amount of gain reduction caused by the slewed gate from CH4 isn't reactive to the input volume; anything above the threshold triggers the maximum amount of gain reduction. You could try multiplying CH4 by CH1 with a BPVCA--this would give you the ability to vary the gain-responsiveness of the reduction.

This is still a 30+hp compressor that uses $400 worth of gear at minimum. I can only imagine it being costlier and taking more real estate in 4U or 5U. I'd go for outboard compression and a send/return modular setup myself.
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Re: Emptyset's feedback loop techniques

Post by Aaronautical001 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:45 am

Very much enjoying this thread, and will be exploring the techniques more with the euro modular gear I have. I have one compressor (WMD MSCL), but it will be interesting to see how cold Mac can be patched as a compressor and distortion for this approach, it seems to contain some relevant building blocks.

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Re: Emptyset's feedback loop techniques

Post by stk » Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:33 am

Further adventures in extreme signal processing
AKA "I heard you like "Bass Music", so I put some bass in your music"



Realised with the signal chain (kind of) detailed above.

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Re: Emptyset's feedback loop techniques

Post by Paranormal Patroler » Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:48 am

Please continue posting these stk you got the sound down to a t! Superb work.
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Re: Emptyset's feedback loop techniques

Post by stk » Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:41 am

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:48 am
Please continue posting these stk you got the sound down to a t! Superb work.
Will do. So much of this exploration is, well, exploring microtweaks and seeing what they let into the main signal. Mainly compressor settings. So much is crushed into oblivion that small parameter changes yield sometimes dramatic results; flutters of noise and artefacts of the process itself.

At the moment this is kind of an academic exercise. I'm enjoying the sounds, but the real challenge is, how to use them without sounding too much like ES mk2.

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