Emptyset's feedback loop techniques

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bitSmasher
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Post by bitSmasher » Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:42 pm

defenestration wrote:highly relevant video on the sound design for the most recent Doom game, which utilized some similar processes

[video][/video]


heavy usage of sine wave sequences fed into multiple pedal chains with lots of compression
Belated bump, to say THANKS for this video - very insightful!

I really like Emptyset and feel what sets them apart from "any other noise act" is their artistic approach.
The latest album is composed on custom made acoustic instruments - which shows they're not letting the equipment define their output.

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Post by dasdreieck » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:01 pm

kollo wrote:One of my favourite bands all time!

Try mixing noise, kick, slow (lfo speed) sine or sine slowly modulated and some higher pitched sine or feedback. Set the levels very carefully. Run it all through distortion/wavefolder etc. The kick will eat the headroom making everything duck, the noise and high pitched sounds will slowly come back at the decay of the kick and the slow sine will create rhythms by eating headroom.. Fine tune. Introduce hihat. Etc. I often start patches like that,get results similar to emptyset. The doepfer a137 is great. (When the kids are sleeping, i cant feedback freely in my basement ;)
Great thread this one. Used the above advice to make the track below, also with a couple modulating and sometimes resonating/feedbacking delay units in the chain. Turned out more evil techno than Emptyset but was a lot of fun.

https://dasdreieck.bandcamp.com/track/f ... ciont-arr1

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Blingley
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Post by Blingley » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:21 am

Doing this is quite fun tbh, something cathartic about taking sinewaves and mangling them until they are just a cacophony of destructive noise.

Definitely more in the vein of Doom than Emptyset though. I sadly failed to get the filesize to 6.66 MB, so 6.06 will have to do.
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Doomwave.wav
(6.06 MiB) Downloaded 32 times

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dasdreieck
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Post by dasdreieck » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:21 pm

Blingley wrote:Doing this is quite fun tbh, something cathartic about taking sinewaves and mangling them until they are just a cacophony of destructive noise.

Definitely more in the vein of Doom than Emptyset though. I sadly failed to get the filesize to 6.66 MB, so 6.06 will have to do.
Awesome, love this

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Post by thetwlo » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:42 pm

is Doom a video game? or artist? why would you want to sound like a game?
MF DOOM?
[video][/video]
[video][/video]

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Post by ambientnoise » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:42 am

Is anyone familiar with their Octatrack and knows it inside out? I would very much like to get the ‘Emptyset technique’ sound out of just the Octa, using very minimal equipment. I’ve been experimenting using the OT and an Analog Heat but I can’t get it to do what I want it to.

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Post by Blingley » Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:20 pm

dasdreieck wrote: Awesome, love this
Thanks, I'm actually really proud I could get all that from inside the box - mostly Ableton Native plugins and d16 FX. Took a few more inserts on each of the split channels than the DOOM ost GDC video had, but that's the price I guess.
thetwlo wrote:is Doom a video game? or artist? why would you want to sound like a game?
Why would you want to sound like nature, or a movie, or any artist whatsoever. Video game music has come a long way, and is as good of a source of inspiration as any.

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Post by PhineasFreak » Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:41 pm

Blingley wrote:
thetwlo wrote:is Doom a video game? or artist? why would you want to sound like a game?
Why would you want to sound like nature, or a movie, or any artist whatsoever. Video game music has come a long way, and is as good of a source of inspiration as any.
don't feed the troll...

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Post by thetwlo » Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:27 am

Blingley wrote:
thetwlo wrote:is Doom a video game? or artist? why would you want to sound like a game?
Why would you want to sound like nature, or a movie, or any artist whatsoever. Video game music has come a long way, and is as good of a source of inspiration as any.
yeah, didn't know "doom" was a game-thought it might be EDIT: ok it states that!. That is weird, to me, that you'd want to sound like a video game or any of the shitty music in video game-like movies today. And yeah, that's sad if you aspire to sound like another artist. Why do you want to sound like another?
oh yeah, sounding like Emptyset, step 1. get a Shure Auxpander.

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Post by mt3 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:11 am

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- GZA

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Post by Paranormal Patroler » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:25 am

Any suggestions on modular compression and/or what setting to use? I recently discovered Emptyset and even though I have a very different approach I'd like to incorporate some elements of their sound in one of my projects. Compression is the key here and it's probably the part of their sound that I'm least familiar with.

It's rather obvious what they're doing (I mean you can hear the pump effect) but I'd like some advice from someone more seasoned in use of multiple compressors etc. Seems like a lot of things going on.
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Post by PhineasFreak » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:57 am

for ultimate flexibilty, control and variety:

patch your own - you'll need mult, full wave rectifier, envelop follower, scale/offset/atten and vca

for extra fun try swapping vca for vc distortion/wavefolder/window comparator/filter

enjoy!

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Post by Paranormal Patroler » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:21 am

PhineasFreak wrote:for ultimate flexibilty, control and variety:

patch your own - you'll need mult, full wave rectifier, envelop follower, scale/offset/atten and vca

for extra fun try swapping vca for vc distortion/wavefolder/window comparator/filter

enjoy!
I already considered this is my best option, but I'm unsure where the full wave rectifier fits in all this. Especially if I'll be using an Envelope Follower and a Scale/Offset/Att. To invert the signal? Wouldn't an inverter be more useful in that regard?

By swapping you mean have the compression value control the distortion, filter, etc. Hmm, not a bad idea.

I wonder how far I can go with just a VCA with offset, an inverter and my envelope. :hmm:
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Post by williamjturkel » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:46 am

I find the Klavis Mixwitch to be very useful, as you can invert signals with the push of a button, rather than sweeping a knob through zero or repatching through an inverter. The design also makes it very easy to mix small amounts of audio or CV through feedback loops. Pair it with WMD MSCL and a mult and you have a great combo for exploring feedback loops with any module that makes noise when self-patched.

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Post by PhineasFreak » Sun Mar 31, 2019 8:38 am

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
PhineasFreak wrote:for ultimate flexibilty, control and variety:

patch your own - you'll need mult, full wave rectifier, envelop follower, scale/offset/atten and vca

for extra fun try swapping vca for vc distortion/wavefolder/window comparator/filter

enjoy!
I already considered this is my best option, but I'm unsure where the full wave rectifier fits in all this. Especially if I'll be using an Envelope Follower and a Scale/Offset/Att. To invert the signal? Wouldn't an inverter be more useful in that regard?

By swapping you mean have the compression value control the distortion, filter, etc. Hmm, not a bad idea.

I wonder how far I can go with just a VCA with offset, an inverter and my envelope. :hmm:
the rectifier flips the negtive portions of the incoming waveform so the whole thing is positive - without this youd be compressing half and expanding half the signal depending whther it was negative or positive wave form - if you just invert you stil have half above zero crossing line and half below zero crossing line

the scale/atten gives you control over the amount of compression/expansion - ratio

the offset gives you the threshold

the only part real hard to achieve in modular is knee because the knee is defined by the curve of the envelope followers and env follows with variable curve arent too common in euro...

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Post by Paranormal Patroler » Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:09 am

PhineasFreak wrote:
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
PhineasFreak wrote:for ultimate flexibilty, control and variety:

patch your own - you'll need mult, full wave rectifier, envelop follower, scale/offset/atten and vca

for extra fun try swapping vca for vc distortion/wavefolder/window comparator/filter

enjoy!
I already considered this is my best option, but I'm unsure where the full wave rectifier fits in all this. Especially if I'll be using an Envelope Follower and a Scale/Offset/Att. To invert the signal? Wouldn't an inverter be more useful in that regard?

By swapping you mean have the compression value control the distortion, filter, etc. Hmm, not a bad idea.

I wonder how far I can go with just a VCA with offset, an inverter and my envelope. :hmm:
the rectifier flips the negtive portions of the incoming waveform so the whole thing is positive - without this youd be compressing half and expanding half the signal depending whther it was negative or positive wave form - if you just invert you stil have half above zero crossing line and half below zero crossing line

the scale/atten gives you control over the amount of compression/expansion - ratio

the offset gives you the threshold

the only part real hard to achieve in modular is knee because the knee is defined by the curve of the envelope followers and env follows with variable curve arent too common in euro...
You could pass the Envelope follower's output via a Slew I guess.
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Post by PhineasFreak » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:27 am

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
PhineasFreak wrote:the only part real hard to achieve in modular is knee because the knee is defined by the curve of the envelope followers and env follows with variable curve arent too common in euro...
You could pass the Envelope follower's output via a Slew I guess.
that would give you a shallower curve on a generally natural log or expo curve, but i'd love to be able to patch together something with those real hard knee sudden change in gradient damn near 90* angles...

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Post by cptnal » Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:16 am

PhineasFreak wrote:
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
PhineasFreak wrote:the only part real hard to achieve in modular is knee because the knee is defined by the curve of the envelope followers and env follows with variable curve arent too common in euro...
You could pass the Envelope follower's output via a Slew I guess.
that would give you a shallower curve on a generally natural log or expo curve, but i'd love to be able to patch together something with those real hard knee sudden change in gradient damn near 90* angles...
Thinking out loud... Two compression-versions into a crossfader controlled by a comparator...? :hmm:
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Post by PhineasFreak » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:21 am

cptnal wrote:
PhineasFreak wrote:
Paranormal Patroler wrote:
PhineasFreak wrote:the only part real hard to achieve in modular is knee because the knee is defined by the curve of the envelope followers and env follows with variable curve arent too common in euro...
You could pass the Envelope follower's output via a Slew I guess.
that would give you a shallower curve on a generally natural log or expo curve, but i'd love to be able to patch together something with those real hard knee sudden change in gradient damn near 90* angles...
Thinking out loud... Two compression-versions into a crossfader controlled by a comparator...? :hmm:
if i coud findan envelope follower with any response curve other than expo that seem like a p damn good solution...

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Post by Blingley » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:24 pm

I'm honestly not sure if the knee matters much in this context. The way these sounds are sculpted is not exactly subtle. For whatever it's worth, I reckon SSF/WMD Mini-Slew could be used to get knee either way, though you might also need a rectifier.

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Post by ambientnoise » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:10 am

Lol funny how you guys are trying to find the Emptyset sound using eurorack even though they don’t use any modular whatsoever.

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Post by Paranormal Patroler » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:32 am

ambientnoise wrote:Lol funny how you guys are trying to find the Emptyset sound using eurorack even though they don’t use any modular whatsoever.
Funny how that can lead you to very interesting places because getting inspired by someone's method is not the end-goal but a process. I'm also trying to find the Colin Stetson sound (which strange as that may seem has similarities to Emtpyset) and he's a solo saxophone player. Oh no - how can that be? Resonance.

There are lessons to be learned in the things you like. Trying to pick them up and incorporate them in your work can create paths you didn't consider taking.
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Post by Spectromat » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:58 am

mt3 wrote:
burnn_out! wrote:From what I've gathered over the years from emptyset is that it's a couple signal generators with heavy fx shaping them chains. The sounds are from sides chains and gates. They've also used amplicfication, natural room reverb with Mic placement. The imo obviously use very quality mixers and mics. They're pretty reclusive so I'm just doing a guesstimate here. They're imo closer to SUNN0))) than straight techno production techniques
Ya, the Pan Sonic approach. I'd say they're more the electronic noise scene than SunnO))). The techno elements are due to the fairly straightahead rhythm of their envelopes I would guess. Excellent shotgun marriage of styles.
I was interested by something mt3 said.. regarding the "Pan Sonic approach" I would be very interested in any light you could shine on Pan Sonic's techniques, if anyone is able to? Thanks :)

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Post by suboptimal » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:38 pm

ambientnoise wrote:Lol funny how you guys are trying to find the Emptyset sound using eurorack even though they don’t use any modular whatsoever.
I think it would be significantly funnier if someone went to the trouble of actually trying to reproduce exactly what they do, as though there's some secret sauce in their specific hardware that will turn anyone into a household name.

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