I mean come on really, it's 2019!

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calaveras
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I mean come on really, it's 2019!

Post by calaveras » Fri May 10, 2019 3:02 pm

How long have we been laboring without any real solution for an editor librarian? There seems to be an ever increasing number of midi synths, and all of the MIDI synths, effects and drum machines created over the last 35 years.
And everyone is just using sysex dumps and device specific editor/librarians?


Come on there has to be some coder nerds who spend all their 6 figure income on synth nerding.

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sizone
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Post by sizone » Fri May 10, 2019 4:53 pm

coffeshopped's ios editor is -slowly- getting a reasonable number of synth families supported. the ala carte pricing for the editors and that it's only on ios I think kinda prevents it from being -the- universal editor though.

midiquest is still around, still updated, still unbearably ugly and basically unusable, but still around.

I guess the consolation is that pretty much all new kit has a dedicated editor and that some of them are pretty fuckin' good.

still, one of us needs to break into apple and liberate the sounddiver codebase.

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Post by BenA718 » Sat May 11, 2019 8:08 am

Have you tried Patch Base? I am using it for my JV synths and my MOPHO and it works great. I use Dexed for my DX7s.

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Re: I mean come on really, it's 2019!

Post by Rex Coil 7 » Sat May 11, 2019 8:12 am

calaveras wrote:How long have we been laboring without any real solution for an editor librarian? There seems to be an ever increasing number of midi synths, and all of the MIDI synths, effects and drum machines created over the last 35 years.
And everyone is just using sysex dumps and device specific editor/librarians?


Come on there has to be some coder nerds who spend all their 6 figure income on synth nerding.
... supply and demand ... :despair:
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Re: I mean come on really, it's 2019!

Post by calaveras » Sat May 11, 2019 11:38 am

Rex Coil 7 wrote:... supply and demand ... :despair:
That is what puzzles me. With all the niche things that get traction on kickstarter. And the wide variety of projects on github. How has this not happened?
It seems it would not be too hard to put together a modern Unisysn or Sounddiver. the front end is a cinch. I could cobble together something with my rudimentary knowledge of Xcode.
The hard part of course would be implementing all the different models out there. Maybe you could crowd source?
I really have no idea how hard it is to implement the backend coding of midi CC, NRPN and SYSEX. But it can't be too hard to do?

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Re: I mean come on really, it's 2019!

Post by morgulbee » Sat May 11, 2019 12:42 pm

calaveras wrote:
Rex Coil 7 wrote:... supply and demand ... :despair:
That is what puzzles me. With all the niche things that get traction on kickstarter. And the wide variety of projects on github. How has this not happened?
It seems it would not be too hard to put together a modern Unisysn or Sounddiver. the front end is a cinch. I could cobble together something with my rudimentary knowledge of Xcode.
The hard part of course would be implementing all the different models out there. Maybe you could crowd source?
I really have no idea how hard it is to implement the backend coding of midi CC, NRPN and SYSEX. But it can't be too hard to do?
Part of the supply/demand equation is the supply of programmers who own a particular synth who are willing to spend their time coding within such a framework, and know the intricacies of the synth well enough to build a usable editor.

I was part of a coding effort way back in the early 90's in MS-DOS/Amiga/Atari ST days. Several of us developed a cross-platform editor/librarian called GLIB (you can still find it and it still sorta-works but it's ugly as hell in these modern times). It only supported a handful of synths: less than a dozen, basically just the ones that the three or four of us owned. And only one of the coders did the editor part for his synths. I just coded the librarians for mine because that's mainly what I needed. I was fine using the front panels for programming my old beasts given the complexity of coding an editor properly. Maybe today with modern GUIs and a better-designed framework it would be easier, or maybe harder. Some particular synths are probably very straightforward, some nightmarishly complex.

It's certainly doable, but are there enough synth-owning developers out there with the skills, time, and motivation to make it successful?

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Post by PrimateSynthesis » Sat May 11, 2019 2:32 pm

Having used Unisyn for years under System 7, and trying SoundDiver briefly under OS X on a G4, I have to say they were both pretty buggy. Then again, most MIDI/DAW software (eg. Cubase, Logic) at the time was buggy as well.

It's hardly my realm of expertise. Although I'm thinking making librarian software wouldn't be too much of an undertaking, but would still need access to all of the synths it supports in order to test it thoroughly. Editing software would not only take a massive amount of time to write a GUI for every synth, but the programmers would need access those synths just to get started. Many of those old MIDI synths are now very expensive.

The other thing to consider is what killed Unisyn and SoundDiver is that they weren't OS or hardware independent. According to their webpage, MOTU still sells Unisyn, but it won't run on an Intel Mac.
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Post by commodorejohn » Sat May 11, 2019 3:24 pm

I think you could probably do pretty well with Python (well-supported on every major OS and many minor ones, plus there are libraries for MIDI and several different GUI toolkits - Tk in particular is very simple to work with in Python.) Creating a UI for each individual synth doesn't necessarily have to be very difficult either; it's just a matter of creating an intuitive arrangement of standard controls. Of course, it wouldn't likely be all that pretty, but as long as it's usable and free, who cares?
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Post by phats » Sat May 11, 2019 5:53 pm

Omnisphere seems to be pretty well integrated with hardware

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Post by jorg » Mon May 13, 2019 3:32 pm

The bugginess of MIDI management any more complex than notes and clocks is one of the factors that drove me to modular. The patch is truly a patch. I can see exactly how it works (if I am patient). When I am done making a unique sound with it, I destroy it. No patch library.

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Post by calaveras » Mon May 13, 2019 6:35 pm

I totally agree about how awful midi can be. I also have a whole modular set up. And some old cv gate analogs. But I keep acquiring more 80s-90s midi gear. Not just synths. My reverbs and even my mixer are all MIDI capable. It is a pain getting stuff in sync sometimes. And the latency is pretty bad considering the data stream is acoustic coupled modem fast. But I am also trying to really exploit my current gear and not buy more stuff!
Maybe I’ll get off my ass and go back to learning how to code. Start a github repo and stuff.

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Post by CF3 » Tue May 14, 2019 2:05 pm

I feel your pain on the current state of editor/librarians in 2019 :waah:

I'm still running a copy of SoundDiver on an old G5 in the studio. Works well enough, but obviously I'd love to ditch the G5. I've tried Sound Quest multiple times and just can't get along with it. I even have a working copy of Unisyn. A modern version of SoundDiver would be my fantasy.

There are many awesome, modern editors for individual synths out there. Including stuff like Ctrlr, TouchOSC, Midi Designer Pro, Lemur, tons of ipad editors, etc... Just no all-in-one solution (except Sound Quest :doh: ).

Not really sure if there's much of a demand TBH, except for individual ones for specific synths (like SoundTower does). Besides the high cost (see: Sound Quest :omg: ), the general level of MIDI knowledge nowadays seems quite low. The bar has really been lowered by manufacturers too. Modern MIDI spec is horrible for the most part (see: most new samplers, sequencers or synths created in the last 15 yrs... not gonna name names).

I still hold out hope an adventurous synth lover cracks SoundDiver open :party:

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Post by Panason » Wed May 15, 2019 7:29 am

MIDI 2.0 coming soon in 2033 when nobody cares.

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Post by leeski » Wed May 15, 2019 7:56 am

maybe just get a library of editors which work along with the synths you have in these modern operating systems?

What would you use for CZ1000 & Sequential Max, perhaps something could be done with max/msp??

sound diver was cool.
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Post by orangehexagon » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:42 pm

Can you update the title of this thread to be more informative and less bait-ey?

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Post by 3hands » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:34 pm

Most of my gear uses MIDI, and providing you keep cable runs short, I have had 0 sync issues. Yes I buy new cables every 2 years. But I do that with Audio as well... par for the course as far as I’m concerned. Getting to grips with MIDI can be incredibly daunting, which is why the KISS analogy is so perfect. All of my 80s midi synths are triggered with MSQ700, as the data stream is super basic, and it doesn’t fuck with my synths (dropped notes, hangs etc). I just lock that to my computer, and bobs your uncle. I also have a BSP synced to the MSQ and that handles my modular and a couple of CV/gate mono synths, and drum brains, not to mention ARP and sequencer clocks. It’s honestly a bomb proof system.
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Post by The Grump » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:33 am

MidiQuest Pro and CTRL are pretty cool. Soundiver fucked my shit up one too many times. No love for it anymore.

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Post by alexander92 » Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:17 pm

The whole idea is indeed counterintuitive if software is needed in order to get the most out of your synth. Recently sold the dsi Mopho cause it basically needs a dedicated editor. I've learnt my lesson as most synths I've owned are cramped with features under the hood with 20 button presses.

I guess my advice is to buy synths which are intuitive, plenty around still, monotribe, bascially whole the korg line,monologue etc. Roland xox machines, 303. As you know you can go awful lot of places with these machines. And there is eurorack offcourse.

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Post by calaveras » Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:40 pm

My need for editor librarian is beyond synths. I have rack effects that are midi.
My mixer has midi mutes.
I also like to have backups of my patches for when the synths and drum machines inevitable shit the bed.
And even with the great knob per function synths coming out these days. The use of flashable firmware means they often add in new, demanded features that are only accessed vice funny button pushes and/or midi CC and sysex.

I really do not understand why this kind of functionality is not built in to Logic Pro or Pro Tools. It's a gimme.

Honorable mention goes to things like my A4 and Taurus 3, which are certainly programmable in person, but damn it sure is easier to do from a screen than crouched over the thing on the floor. (or in the case of the A4, trying to read red on black labels!)

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Post by sizone » Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:54 pm

calaveras wrote:

I really do not understand why this kind of functionality is not built in to Logic Pro or Pro Tools. It's a gimme.
It is built into Logic. Apple bought up emagic, implemented sounddiver in a build or two then promptly buried it.

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Post by thermisonic » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:23 am

calaveras wrote:My need for editor librarian is beyond synths. I have rack effects that are midi.
My mixer has midi mutes.
What is your mixer out of interest?

Rob

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