Intellijel Quadrax

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ima_jrk
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Re: Intellijel Quadrax

Post by ima_jrk » Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:17 am

BlackDoors wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 7:45 pm
My reading of the (very brief) 1.02 release note is that we need to set the toggle mode on to turn the dithering on to reduce or eliminate the quantisation issue. But why even allow it to be turned on and off? What are the disadvantages of turning the dithering on to different modes and applications?
Presumably you wouldn’t want/need it turned on if you have the correct DAC

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Re: Intellijel Quadrax

Post by closedLoop » Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:32 am

BlackDoors wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 7:45 pm
This early adopter DAC issue is a bit annoying. In all honesty, the improvement delivered via the firmware update isn’t so clear to me.
I'm with you. I don't mind being an early adopter when there are firmware issues to sort out after release. Hardware issues are very different. I'm not sure I saw what Intellijel themselves posted here before the forum upgrade, but I'm more than a bit surprised by Intellijel's response to this. I'm assuming they had a contract with the manufacturer, if it was a manufacturer mistake, and this mistake would certainly be covered by any standard contract.

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Re: Intellijel Quadrax

Post by ima_jrk » Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:17 am

closedLoop wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:32 am
I'm not sure I saw what Intellijel themselves posted here before the forum upgrade, but I'm more than a bit surprised by Intellijel's response to this. I'm assuming they had a contract with the manufacturer, if it was a manufacturer mistake, and this mistake would certainly be covered by any standard contract.
Basically people reported aliasing/stepping noise. When Intellijel investigated they discovered that the CM (contract manufacturer) has installed the wrong DAC on their first run of boards-they installed the 12 bit version from the same series (LTC 2624 instead of 2604). Originally they said it would require a hardware update (to replace the correct DAC). Then they learned that they could make it better by adding dithering to the output so that the quantization error/aliasing would not be so noticeable. I believe that this was done in good faith to try and keep people from losing their shiny new modules for a few weeks, as this is probably fine for many people for many applications.

So 12bit plus dithering does not 16 bit make, but I recommend that people try the update and see if they notice anything. If you do or you just want to have the unit repaired as intended send an email to Intellijel support with a picture of the board showing that you have the 2624 DAC and a copy of your purchase receipt. They gave me an RMA and I have asked if they were picking up shipping (no reply due to holidays) but have personally opted to return to my retailer and wait for the next batch so that I’m not dealing with international shipping and all that can go wrong - I just had a bad experience from CA to the US with my System80 860 filter that went missing for a few days, so I’m gun shy!

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Re: Intellijel Quadrax

Post by jjr » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:34 am

Do all the Qudrax's in the "wild" currently have the LTC 2624 instead of 2604 ?
Smurfs

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Re: Intellijel Quadrax

Post by ima_jrk » Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:22 pm

jjr wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:34 am
Do all the Qudrax's in the "wild" currently have the LTC 2624 instead of 2604 ?
I would say that’s unknown as I thought their post said first batch and I don’t think we know what they meant by batch (first manufactured or first shipped) or how many batches are in the wild. PC told me that they sold out of their first batch and are waiting on a second shipment with no ETA given for arrival.

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Re: Intellijel Quadrax

Post by djd_oz » Thu Dec 26, 2019 3:24 pm

I checked mine and it has the 2624.

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Re: Intellijel Quadrax

Post by BlackDoors » Thu Dec 26, 2019 4:10 pm

I’ll be having a look at mine when I get a minute. Tbh I’d like intellijel to chime in here when they can. I’d like to know how much difference the 12 bit DAC plus dithering makes to the module’s performance. Guess this will all come out in the wash but I would like some more information from those best placed to reassure buyers.

To be honest sending a board on a brand new module back to Canada from UK for an RMA doesn't sound too attractive to me. If a board swap is really necessary, I wonder if something could be sorted out via the dealers / local distributors?

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Re: Intellijel Quadrax

Post by jjr » Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:13 pm

It is our opinion that no, the firmware update is able to solve the issue without replacing the 12-bit DAC. You can download the firmware update from our support page here: https://intellijel.com/support/

Once you have done the firmware update, if you experience any noise or other issues please let us know right away.
This is what I heard from them so I'll probably update the firmware :spin: and assume all is well
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Re: Intellijel Quadrax

Post by ima_jrk » Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:58 pm

jjr wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:13 pm
This is what I heard from them so I'll probably update the firmware :spin: and assume all is well
Please let us know what you experience - I have found one report (before the blip on MW) that reported that all was well while one report in the Intellijel forum says that it's "almost" gone.

Either way, mine went back to PC today - I'll try again in the next batch!

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Re: Intellijel Quadrax

Post by comacomfort » Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:53 am

Im confused, if we got sold something that's underpowered using a 12 bit dac, but was meant to be 16 bit, that means we paid too much doesn't it? doesn't that drastically alter the audio rate capabilities of the quadrax? 4096 steps of resolution for 12 bit, vs 65536 steps of resolution for 16. The 2604 is like a 50 dollar chip where as the 2624 is like 6 bucks.

On extremely slow LFOs you'd presumably get stepping as the values change from one value to the next in 12 bit, dithering would just add a bit of wiggle between the steps? A software solution doesn't seem like a fair compromise.

its almost 2020 and 12 bit anything is unacceptable in my eyes, if I was aware of this I would not have bought my quadrax and just stuck with analog modules, without stepping. The "Future Retro Transient" advertises its 12 bit audio output as "vintage character" because they are well aware its not up to modern standards.

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Re: Intellijel Quadrax

Post by ima_jrk » Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:28 am

comacomfort wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:53 am
The 2604 is like a 50 dollar chip where as the 2624 is like 6 bucks.
The 2604 is ~$12 and change USD in quantity based on Digi-Key prices.

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Re: Intellijel Quadrax

Post by djd_oz » Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:19 pm

Is it just as simple as unsoldering and swapping the chip out?

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Re: Intellijel Quadrax

Post by closedLoop » Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:13 pm

jjr wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:13 pm
This is what I heard from them so I'll probably update the firmware :spin: and assume all is well
I've updated, and it definitely improve things for me. I've tried it in the instances in which I noticed it the most, and in a side-by-side comparison, I can't tell the difference between Quardra and Quardrax.

I'm wondering if that noise is ALMOST gone with this firmware update, and it would be COMPLETELY gone with a hardware swap, does anyone know any instances when you would really here the difference between the 12bit and 16bit chip with this 1.0.2 update? I feel like I would like to know now whether I should be asking Intellijel to change mine over to the other chip.

I also feel like Intellijel should be just blanket mailing new units with the correct chips to everyone effected. Or doing the repair and offering free expanders. This is as much bother as I've ever had with a module.

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Re: Intellijel Quadrax

Post by ima_jrk » Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:20 pm

closedLoop wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:13 pm
jjr wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:13 pm
This is what I heard from them so I'll probably update the firmware :spin: and assume all is well
I'm wondering if that noise is ALMOST gone with this firmware update, and it would be COMPLETELY gone with a hardware swap, does anyone know any instances when you would really here the difference between the 12bit and 16bit chip with this 1.0.2 update?
I would imagine it would be more noticeable on any slow modulations. Also, before the blip, there was a post that said it was most noticeable driving a VCA with a Sine oscillator running through it (memory may be wrong here).

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Re: Intellijel Quadrax

Post by Daisuk » Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:25 pm

djd_oz wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:19 pm
Is it just as simple as unsoldering and swapping the chip out?
Did you just put "easy" and "unsolder" in the same sentence? Never seen that before. Unsoldering a fucking smd chip is close to hell on earth - wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy. :lol:

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Re: Intellijel Quadrax

Post by Gohan2A » Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:32 pm

djd_oz wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:19 pm
Is it just as simple as unsoldering and swapping the chip out?
I ask myself the same question

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Re: Intellijel Quadrax

Post by ima_jrk » Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:42 pm

Daisuk wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:25 pm
djd_oz wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:19 pm
Is it just as simple as unsoldering and swapping the chip out?
Did you just put "easy" and "unsolder" in the same sentence? Never seen that before. Unsoldering a fucking smd chip is close to hell on earth - wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy. :lol:
It's easy when you have the right tools! A hot air rework station makes quick work of this. Agreed, trying to do this with your favorite soldering pencil or your grandad's 200W solding gun is probably not going to be fun

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Re: Intellijel Quadrax

Post by Daisuk » Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:49 pm

ima_jrk wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:42 pm
Daisuk wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:25 pm
djd_oz wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:19 pm
Is it just as simple as unsoldering and swapping the chip out?
Did you just put "easy" and "unsolder" in the same sentence? Never seen that before. Unsoldering a fucking smd chip is close to hell on earth - wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy. :lol:
It's easy when you have the right tools! A hot air rework station makes quick work of this. Agreed, trying to do this with your favorite soldering pencil or your grandad's 200W solding gun is probably not going to be fun
I obviously need a hot air rework station. :lol: :tu:

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Re: Intellijel Quadrax

Post by Gohan2A » Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:06 pm

Daisuk wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:49 pm
I obviously need a hot air rework station. :lol: :tu:
same, my weller doesn't want to do that...

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Re: Intellijel Quadrax

Post by closedLoop » Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:43 am

ima_jrk wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:20 pm
I would imagine it would be more noticeable on any slow modulations. Also, before the blip, there was a post that said it was most noticeable driving a VCA with a Sine oscillator running through it (memory may be wrong here).
That was actually my post about the sine wave and VCA. I tried that, and some slow modulations, and haven't really noticed anything yet.

I'm wary because, before the 1.0.2 update, that noise would be very noticeable in some modulations, and then be completely unnoticeable in others. I have a feeling that, if it is still there to some extent, I just haven't found the instances where it comes forward.

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Re: Intellijel Quadrax

Post by ima_jrk » Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:25 am

closedLoop wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:43 am
I'm wary because, before the 1.0.2 update, that noise would be very noticeable in some modulations, and then be completely unnoticeable in others. I have a feeling that, if it is still there to some extent, I just haven't found the instances where it comes forward.
That’s probably good news, right? I wish I had had the time to put the original and the patched on the scope before returning it.

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Post by jjr » Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:54 am

closedLoop wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:43 am
ima_jrk wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:20 pm
I would imagine it would be more noticeable on any slow modulations. Also, before the blip, there was a post that said it was most noticeable driving a VCA with a Sine oscillator running through it (memory may be wrong here).
That was actually my post about the sine wave and VCA. I tried that, and some slow modulations, and haven't really noticed anything yet.

I'm wary because, before the 1.0.2 update, that noise would be very noticeable in some modulations, and then be completely unnoticeable in others. I have a feeling that, if it is still there to some extent, I just haven't found the instances where it comes forward.

would you mind reposting a description of the "test" like should we modulate the VCA with an AD from Quadrax ? also I believe you described it noticeable with a lower frequency Sine?
Smurfs

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Re:

Post by closedLoop » Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:00 am

jjr wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:54 am
would you mind reposting a description of the "test" like should we modulate the VCA with an AD from Quadrax ? also I believe you described it noticeable with a lower frequency Sine?
I didn’t post any audio or video, but the moment I heard the noise most clearly was when I was opening and closing a VCA (Intellijel Quad VCA in my case), with an AD triggered envelope from Quadrax, and the input to the VCA was a clean sine wave in the lower audible range.

The noise I encountered was mostly high-pitched, and it’s most evident when you’re processing a signal that doesn’t have a rich timbre.

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Re: Intellijel Quadrax

Post by Carl Licroy » Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:06 pm

comacomfort wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:53 am
Im confused, if we got sold something that's underpowered using a 12 bit dac, but was meant to be 16 bit, that means we paid too much doesn't it? doesn't that drastically alter the audio rate capabilities of the quadrax? 4096 steps of resolution for 12 bit, vs 65536 steps of resolution for 16. The 2604 is like a 50 dollar chip where as the 2624 is like 6 bucks.

On extremely slow LFOs you'd presumably get stepping as the values change from one value to the next in 12 bit, dithering would just add a bit of wiggle between the steps? A software solution doesn't seem like a fair compromise.

its almost 2020 and 12 bit anything is unacceptable in my eyes, if I was aware of this I would not have bought my quadrax and just stuck with analog modules, without stepping. The "Future Retro Transient" advertises its 12 bit audio output as "vintage character" because they are well aware its not up to modern standards.
I was waiting for a board replacement and Intellijel finally confirmed me by mail that the firmware update is the solution of the problem. I am really surprised of this answer :hmm:

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Re: Intellijel Quadrax

Post by comacomfort » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:23 pm

Carl Licroy wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:06 pm
comacomfort wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:53 am
Im confused, if we got sold something that's underpowered using a 12 bit dac, but was meant to be 16 bit, that means we paid too much doesn't it? doesn't that drastically alter the audio rate capabilities of the quadrax? 4096 steps of resolution for 12 bit, vs 65536 steps of resolution for 16. The 2604 is like a 50 dollar chip where as the 2624 is like 6 bucks.

On extremely slow LFOs you'd presumably get stepping as the values change from one value to the next in 12 bit, dithering would just add a bit of wiggle between the steps? A software solution doesn't seem like a fair compromise.

its almost 2020 and 12 bit anything is unacceptable in my eyes, if I was aware of this I would not have bought my quadrax and just stuck with analog modules, without stepping. The "Future Retro Transient" advertises its 12 bit audio output as "vintage character" because they are well aware its not up to modern standards.
I was waiting for a board replacement and Intellijel finally confirmed me by mail that the firmware update is the solution of the problem. I am really surprised of this answer :hmm:
Wow, disappointing. It doesn't even fix the problem, just minimises it.

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