Rollz-5+ Kit from Meng Qi (2014 Revision 3)

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mudlogger
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Post by mudlogger » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:41 pm

breadman wrote:For anyone keeping track, the differences I've noticed in this most recent layout are:

1. bananas, pots and hairy caps now on the opposite side as the rest of components
2. 4x 1M pots instead of 1x
3. No vactrol power starve
4. LED power indicator added

Am I missing anything?
amps have changed to ones with a better noise floor - TL074 and TL072 instead of 84 and 82.

theres an earth banana in the lower, middle of the board.

each rollz has 3 points to put capacitors.

its worth noting that the new pcb kit includes banana jacks, dc jack and output jack so no need to order those parts.

Do not solder the dc jack on the wrong side of the board or it will have no grounding and not power up.

I put all my components on one same side of the board thats how i had the dc jack issue. The workaround was to run a ground wire from the dc power case to one of the mounting holes on the pcb

My only issue at the moment is my rollz are not working.
The volumes are also out - the ultrasounds are very loud and drown out the sounds of all the other sections.
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Post by salocinnomis » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:55 am

I just finished building mine, still have to add the 2x3 sockets for the Rollz capacitors, and maybe put the gongs trimmers on the front, tweak a few values here & there, but otherwise everything works!
It sounds great, though quite different from the paper circuits I've built before, the Ultrasound Filters seems way more predictable on this PCB version (but it might be because of my Rollz values, hopefully I'll have some time to study this soon).
mudlogger wrote: The volumes are also out - the ultrasounds are very loud and drown out the sounds of all the other sections.
That's the only issue I have on my build, their output resistors really needs to be changed.
///

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Post by mudlogger » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:45 am

salocinnomis wrote:I just finished building mine, still have to add the 2x3 sockets for the Rollz capacitors, and maybe put the gongs trimmers on the front, tweak a few values here & there, but otherwise everything works!
It sounds great, though quite different from the paper circuits I've built before, the Ultrasound Filters seems way more predictable on this PCB version (but it might be because of my Rollz values, hopefully I'll have some time to study this soon).
mudlogger wrote: The volumes are also out - the ultrasounds are very loud and drown out the sounds of all the other sections.
That's the only issue I have on my build, their output resistors really needs to be changed.
another wiggler recommend i change the output resistors also -
The volume of these things is dependent on the resistor value z (rollz paper circuit) 22k is normal, 10k is louder apparently
I can’t work out why my rollz are not working - they are socketted at the moment and wondering if i solder them in i may get lucky.
I reflowed everything on the rollz side just to make sure.

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Post by salocinnomis » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:59 am

mudlogger wrote:another wiggler recommend i change the output resistors from 22k to 10k


I was just looking into this, the original paper circuits documentation about the Ultrasound Filters says the opposite :
Each output jack has a "z" resistor. Standart is 22k; make it smaller to boost the loudness of any output. Make it bigger to dim a signal.


I guess I'll see when trying :)

Do you plan to make a case for yours? I'm thinking of just laser-cutting some top & bottom acrylic panels, and leave the sides open but I'm not sure.. a nice wooden case would be great too :love: (or something like this wonderful build : https://scontent-lga3-1.cdninstagram.co ... 6896_n.jpg)


Edit: You figured out about the "z" resistors in the meantime.
My Rollz's caps are all soldered right now, but I'm gonna replace them with sockets to play with different values. It should not be a problem really.. (I tried some without even soldering them, the size of the holes on the PCB are perfect for this, and they work fine on mine). Hope you'll fix it soon!
///

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Post by mudlogger » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:10 am

salocinnomis wrote:
mudlogger wrote:another wiggler recommend i change the output resistors from 22k to 10k
I was just looking into this, the original paper circuits documentation about the Ultrasound Filters says the opposite :
Each output jack has a "z" resistor. Standart is 22k; make it smaller to boost the loudness of any output. Make it bigger to dim a signal.
I guess I'll see when trying :)

Do you plan to make a case for yours? I'm thinking of just laser-cutting some top & bottom acrylic panels, and leave the sides open but I'm not sure.. a nice wooden case would be great too :love: (or something like this wonderful build : https://scontent-lga3-1.cdninstagram.co ... 6896_n.jpg)


Edit: You figured out about the "z" resistors in the meantime.
My Rollz's caps are all soldered right now, but I'm gonna replace them with headers to play with different values. It should not be a problem really.. (I tried some without even soldering them, and they work fine on mine).
Thx - yes the comment about changing from 22k to 10k was that 10k would be louder - i edited my words in the previous comment to be clear but too late!

I was going to make a case before the build but as i was building and putting everything on one side of the pcb, i now think its better to mount it on some wood and leave it open so i have easy access to everything

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Post by Clemdu » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:50 pm

Hey gang!
Quick question here, I'm in the wiring stage, everything's deported on my panel, and I'm going with Richard's mods... so patience is my new friend :whistle:
I started with the ultrasound filters, everything sounds fine and they are dead quiet when nothing is plugged in their input. But as soon as I'm wiring the filter inputs to the panel I'm getting quite a bit of noise picked up.

Should I try shielded wire? For the people with external wiring build (yes Richard, I'm looking at you ;) ), how noisy are your filters when nothing's plugged into it?

Thanks!

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Post by halandorin » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:50 pm

I ordered my pcb from MA last week and just finished the build. The prior comments on the sensitivity to power are no joke. I have great sound quality but little no headroom when using a 9v. When using 12v wallwart, im getting amazing headroom but a lot of ground hum.

Other issues- I'm having a hard time understanding the relation between the variable resistors/hairy caps on the AV dogs. they seem to affect attack and decay but I am not entirely sure. I also dont understand what the pot on the av dog that isnt pitch does. It at times seemed to set overall decay, but I am not sure.

can anyone help? Otherwise, I am loving this thing and cant wait to get my values locked down.

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Post by salocinnomis » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:40 am

halandorin wrote:The prior comments on the sensitivity to power are no joke. I have great sound quality but little no headroom when using a 9v. When using 12v wallwart, im getting amazing headroom but a lot of ground hum.
Had the same issue, I built a small circuit with a 7809 to regulate and filter the power, it now works perfectly with no humming at all. There's a simple schematic on Pugix's website.
halandorin wrote:Other issues- I'm having a hard time understanding the relation between the variable resistors/hairy caps on the AV dogs. they seem to affect attack and decay but I am not entirely sure. I also dont understand what the pot on the av dog that isnt pitch does. It at times seemed to set overall decay, but I am not sure.
I still have to experiment with AVDog's resistors/caps, some of mine are really responsive other not so much. The first knob is the enveloppe rate (controls the number of "ripples"/repetitions of the enveloppe, like a bouncing ball), it seems to work better with slower rolls, if they are too fast the enveloppe doesn't have enough time to repeat itself before being retriggered by another pulse.
///

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Post by Clemdu » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:40 pm

Clemdu wrote:Hey gang!
Should I try shielded wire? For the people with external wiring build (yes Richard, I'm looking at you ;) ), how noisy are your filters when nothing's plugged into it?
Answering to myself here, some RG-174 did the trick, with the shield grounded on the panel side, my ultrasounds are very clean and silent when nothing's plug in it 8-)

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Post by corpusjonsey » Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:07 pm

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Post by Clemdu » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:20 pm

Nice and clean build! :sb:

Just curious, what Rollz values did you settle down with?

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Post by corpusjonsey » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:36 pm

Thanks! I'm currently trying 10u and 0.1u on the 3, 4.7u and 0.1u on the 4, 10u and 0.1u on the 5 and 10u and 1u on the 6.

Not sure I like the 0.1u on the 3 roll. The rest are cool so far.

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Post by rmro » Wed May 02, 2018 6:16 am

[quote="corpusjonsey"]Thanks! I'm currently trying 10u and 0.1u on the 3, 4.7u and 0.1u on the 4, 10u and 0.1u on the 5 and 10u and 1u on the 6.

Not sure I like the 0.1u on the 3 roll. The rest are cool so far.

Hey,

Could you please explain what these numbers mean? I didn't build my Rollz and end up wondering why some Rolls don't seem to output anything? Are they intended to be rests or to filter pulses out?

Any shedding of light would be most welcome!

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Post by salocinnomis » Wed May 02, 2018 8:27 pm

They are Rolls' capacitors values, Roll-3 have 3, Roll-4 have 4 etc..
Usually you'd choose the same values within a Roll, but you could also mix them (time between pulses will vary which make the whole thing more chaotic).
On the last revision you can put 2x3 pins headers to socket them (which is really nice).

How did you check the Rolls were not outputting anything if you didn't build your Rollz?

The odd-numbered rolls oscillate at really high frequencies, so monitoring them directly you might not hear anything but that's normal, you're supposed to translate them with the ultrasound filters, and of course to use them to disrupt other Rolls.
The even rolls emit pulses like metronomes, so monitoring them you'd get loud pulses (be careful with your ears/speakers).
///

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Post by ClausF » Thu May 03, 2018 1:26 am

A Rolls alone makes no sound, it triggers the other modules (AVDog, Ultrasound, Gongue). But Rolls can make sound if you combine them (with attenuators), see the Rollz-5 paper from Peter.

That works with the paper circuits and with the CL Rollzer, which should be the same inside.

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Post by rmro » Thu May 03, 2018 7:05 am

I guess what I'm trying to explain is:

The Rollz5 has 8 x 4Rolls.

I have my default 4Roll which I usually patch into a Gongue to get a steady pulse going, this one is one from the bottom row.

If I patch one of the 4Rolls from the top row there's no sound from the Gongue.

If I have lots of Rollz patched into multiple Rollz, both odd and even the the 4Rolls from the top row will have some influence on the chaos.

My question was whether these eg: filter pulses out? Or just why do some 4Rolls trigger the Gongue whilst others don't.

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Post by corpusjonsey » Fri May 04, 2018 3:13 pm

rmro wrote:I guess what I'm trying to explain is:

The Rollz5 has 8 x 4Rolls.

I have my default 4Roll which I usually patch into a Gongue to get a steady pulse going, this one is one from the bottom row.

If I patch one of the 4Rolls from the top row there's no sound from the Gongue.

If I have lots of Rollz patched into multiple Rollz, both odd and even the the 4Rolls from the top row will have some influence on the chaos.

My question was whether these eg: filter pulses out? Or just why do some 4Rolls trigger the Gongue whilst others don't.
The Rollz-5 I built (Meng Qi 2017 rev) has 2 of each 3,4,5,6 roll. The caps are the timing between stages. Larger cap value = longer time between each stage. Each banana jack outputs a pulse at one of the stages. On LTSpice I calculated that 0.1uF = 0.066s between pulses, 1uF = 0.66s, 10uF = 6.6s, 47uF = 31s, 100uF = 66s etc. Of course the odd rolls oscillate out of control so the timing I describe only can be perceived on the even rolls. Times are approximate. Study the rollz papers to gain an understanding of how rolls are set up.

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Post by bunkerspreckles » Sun May 06, 2018 9:46 am

Heyhi!

I'm wondering if anybody who has added the Brewster mods could point me in the direction of where to find some dual gang A1M pots.
I got the B1M dual gangs for his output mixer at Mammoth, but I'm having a hard time finding the "A" style tapers, except at Mouser, who want $4.68 a pop for them! :sadbanana:
Or, if not, does anyone know if using the B1Ms instead of A1Ms for the Gong and AVD dual gangs would make much difference?

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Post by GrantB » Mon May 07, 2018 11:22 pm

bunkerspreckles wrote:Heyhi!

I'm wondering if anybody who has added the Brewster mods could point me in the direction of where to find some dual gang A1M pots.
I got the B1M dual gangs for his output mixer at Mammoth, but I'm having a hard time finding the "A" style tapers, except at Mouser, who want $4.68 a pop for them! :sadbanana:
Or, if not, does anyone know if using the B1Ms instead of A1Ms for the Gong and AVD dual gangs would make much difference?

http://www.smallbear-electronics.mybigc ... ear-audio/

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Post by bunkerspreckles » Tue May 08, 2018 4:34 pm

GrantB-- Thanks! :tu:

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Post by rmro » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:49 am

The Rollz-5 I built (Meng Qi 2017 rev) has 2 of each 3,4,5,6 roll. The caps are the timing between stages. Larger cap value = longer time between each stage. Each banana jack outputs a pulse at one of the stages. On LTSpice I calculated that 0.1uF = 0.066s between pulses, 1uF = 0.66s, 10uF = 6.6s, 47uF = 31s, 100uF = 66s etc. Of course the odd rolls oscillate out of control so the timing I describe only can be perceived on the even rolls. Times are approximate. Study the rollz papers to gain an understanding of how rolls are set up.
I've recently been patching Rollz outputs into an Loop input on my Coco 2, and monitoring this with an Oscilloscope plugin. I can see what's going on with the Rollz, some are slow with a strong click others chaotic and noisy sounding.

What still baffles me is some of the Rollz which output a strong click will produce audio out of a Gongue whilst another doing the same thing doesn't?

Also, when you say the Rollz you built only has 2 '2 of each 3,4,5,6 roll' what do all the others do, are they noisy chaotic versions?

:hmm:

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Post by corpusjonsey » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:09 pm

rmro wrote:
The Rollz-5 I built (Meng Qi 2017 rev) has 2 of each 3,4,5,6 roll. The caps are the timing between stages. Larger cap value = longer time between each stage. Each banana jack outputs a pulse at one of the stages. On LTSpice I calculated that 0.1uF = 0.066s between pulses, 1uF = 0.66s, 10uF = 6.6s, 47uF = 31s, 100uF = 66s etc. Of course the odd rolls oscillate out of control so the timing I describe only can be perceived on the even rolls. Times are approximate. Study the rollz papers to gain an understanding of how rolls are set up.
I've recently been patching Rollz outputs into an Loop input on my Coco 2, and monitoring this with an Oscilloscope plugin. I can see what's going on with the Rollz, some are slow with a strong click others chaotic and noisy sounding.

What still baffles me is some of the Rollz which output a strong click will produce audio out of a Gongue whilst another doing the same thing doesn't?

Also, when you say the Rollz you built only has 2 '2 of each 3,4,5,6 roll' what do all the others do, are they noisy chaotic versions?

:hmm:
One roll consists of multiple outputs. Ex: a 4 roll has 4 banana output jacks, a 5 roll has 5 outputs. The rollz-5 has two rows of 3, two rows of 4, 5, 6. One row (of 3, 4, 5 or 6) is a roll.

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Post by rmro » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:31 am

Could someone please point in the right direction for which potentiometer I'd need to install to get my power starve to function.

I've heard about power starve being potentially damaging things so a little wary.

I tried sending cv out of my coco into the power starve but didn't seem to have any effect on the sound:


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Post by diophantine » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:26 pm

Got my board a week or two ago and made some Ponoko panels, which arrived yesterday. I still need to build up the board, but as far as I can tell (by placing the pots & jacks) these panels will work fine.

They are based on the panel template provided by Meng Qi, minus the holes for the pot anti-rotation lugs. Includes front panel (holes only), front panel (holes + basic engraved lines), and back panel (screw holes only). I copied all 3 into one of their P3 templates and got them all done on a single sheet.
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Post by diophantine » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:36 pm

I was thinking of installing sockets for all X, Y, and Z resistors (except those covered by trimpots), as well as the hairy caps (besides the ones in the Rolls sections).

Anyone tried this? Any thoughts on it? Wasn't planning to make any other modifications, aside from possibly an external 12V to 9V power regulator circuit.

Update: looks like all Y resistors are now covered by pots, so it would just be the X and Z resistors, and the hairy caps.

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