Tenori-ON can't autoswitch blocks? Why?

Yamaha shut down all support - let this instrument live on here!

Moderators: Kent, ritchiedrums, Paranormal Patroler

Post Reply
midenok
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:45 am

Tenori-ON can't autoswitch blocks? Why?

Post by midenok » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:54 am

What I couldn't understand when started using Tenori-ON, it has 16 blocks which would make it fantastic 256-step sequencer. But why there is no such mode? F.ex. when you start using block 2, it should autoswitch to block 2 after block 1 and so on. It seems so obvious to me that I don't believe I can't find menu option for that...

User avatar
ersatzplanet
Synthwerks Design
Posts: 6445
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:18 pm
Location: Seattle WA

Post by ersatzplanet » Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:17 pm

The only way to do this is with the realtime record function where the T-O records all realtime actions done, including block changes. I never use this mode, but it may be possible to edit it during playback, if so, then you can just record the sequence of block changes and then treat the result as a multi-block single sequence. I am not near my T-O to try it out or I could give you a definite answer.
-James

James Husted - Synthwerks, LLC - www.synthwerks.com - info@synthwerks.com - james@synthwerks.com
Synthwerks is a proud member of the Mostly Modular Trade Association (http://www.mostlymodular.com).
Always looking to trade for Doepfer P6 cases

midenok
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:45 am

Post by midenok » Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:55 pm

Yep, not really a sequencer use case.

Probably it can be made an external device which switches blocks by midi via Sysex. I guess T-O reports everything and can do everything via Sysex as it supports master-slave mode. Some good script on Arduino would solve this, but I am too occupied to do that...

User avatar
pikablue
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:13 am
Contact:

Re: Tenori-ON can't autoswitch blocks? Why?

Post by pikablue » Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:16 pm

>...Some good script on Arduino would solve this

This guy managed exactly that!: https://create.arduino.cc/projecthub/ar ... ler-3d4b87

However, in "normal" (non-remote) mode, the TNR doesn't accept block change sysex requests. In remote mode, it does accept block change requests, but doesn't output anything *except* for the sysex requests corresponding to keys pressed. So no note-on/note-off.

This rules out my usage where I am using the TNR to drive a separate sound module via MIDI note-on/note-off, but want to be able change blocks from an external source - in my case a MIDI foot pedal.

Since Yamaha no longer seems interested in supporting this, I have been poking around in the firmware, and hopefully should be able to persuade it to accept block change sysex (or something smaller, e.g. does anything in the world use Midi "song select" F3 messages?)

User avatar
pikablue
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:13 am
Contact:

Re: Tenori-ON can't autoswitch blocks? Why?

Post by pikablue » Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:38 pm

>...it has 16 blocks which would make it fantastic 256-step sequencer...

So I've managed to modify the firmware to add a new layer type - a 256 step version of score that just runs on from one block to the next. Loop points are also settable that allow the start/end point to be anywhere in the 256 steps.

For those of you who want to try it out - as well as various other TNR firmware mods - you can get the image from my website. Notification of any weird behavior would be appreciated; I've only done a limited amount of testing.

User avatar
Paranormal Patroler
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 10853
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:40 pm
Location: the Terminal beach

Re: Tenori-ON can't autoswitch blocks? Why?

Post by Paranormal Patroler » Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:47 am

pikablue wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:38 pm
>...it has 16 blocks which would make it fantastic 256-step sequencer...

So I've managed to modify the firmware to add a new layer type - a 256 step version of score that just runs on from one block to the next. Loop points are also settable that allow the start/end point to be anywhere in the 256 steps.

For those of you who want to try it out - as well as various other TNR firmware mods - you can get the image from my website. Notification of any weird behavior would be appreciated; I've only done a limited amount of testing.
I'm super curious to try this out. How do you update the firmware? And what's your website?
The ideal scenario is to add that extra layer option, your Score layer, and turn on points on each column for number of repeats for each block before moving to the next.

You could also add more functionality with that setting.
Does this require external SysEx control?
All rights reserved; all wrongs reversed.

User avatar
blackcelcius
buy/sell/trade
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:35 pm

Re: Tenori-ON can't autoswitch blocks? Why?

Post by blackcelcius » Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:52 am

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:47 am
pikablue wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:38 pm
>...it has 16 blocks which would make it fantastic 256-step sequencer...

So I've managed to modify the firmware to add a new layer type - a 256 step version of score that just runs on from one block to the next. Loop points are also settable that allow the start/end point to be anywhere in the 256 steps.

For those of you who want to try it out - as well as various other TNR firmware mods - you can get the image from my website. Notification of any weird behavior would be appreciated; I've only done a limited amount of testing.
I'm super curious to try this out. How do you update the firmware? And what's your website?
The ideal scenario is to add that extra layer option, your Score layer, and turn on points on each column for number of repeats for each block before moving to the next.

You could also add more functionality with that setting.
Does this require external SysEx control?
I am curious too,how de we know where to download this firmware?

User avatar
pikablue
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:13 am
Contact:

Re: Tenori-ON can't autoswitch blocks? Why?

Post by pikablue » Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:45 am

And what's your website?
Sorry; thought it was accessible through my profile. Anyway : http://pika.blue. It's not much more than a project repository.
How do you update the firmware?
I've put some instructions on my site; it's the same as the standard way of updating the firmware to v2.10 - I've just packaged it as a different .TUP file. Download the latest release, copy to your TENORI-ON folder on your SD card, etc. It's a good idea to have a copy of the standard v2.10 Yamaha TUP just in case (a) you don't like it and want to revert, or (b) I've screwed something up.

Each release contains all the previous releases, so you only need the latest one. There are pages on the site with some very brief explanations and menu screenshots of the new functions.

I've done nominal testing, but I'm sure there are lots of corner cases that I haven't covered.

There are several other features, e.g. user assignable midi channels, a first version of per-layer scales, a setting for turning the annoying sysex output off, velocity splits etc. I'm also just about to upload a version that allows arbitrary CC controller output instead of notes.
The ideal scenario is to add that extra layer option, your Score layer, and turn on points on each column for number of repeats for each block before moving to the next.
I'm building towards something like this, but I'm not at release stage yet. I have a collection of "meta" internal instruments - one of which issues internal block changes. The idea is to use a 256 step score with this meta instrument on, running at a slow speed, in which entered "notes" dictate the current block for the other instruments. This would allow, for example, 3 ticks of block 2, then 1 tick of block 1, then block 4, and so on.
Does this require external SysEx control?
No. It's all internal to the TNR.
You could also add more functionality with that setting
Yes; any ideas would be welcome. I am limited in what is possible, however, since I am trying not to break the existing functionality of the TNR.

Let me know if you find any issues.

User avatar
blackcelcius
buy/sell/trade
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 4:35 pm

Re: Tenori-ON can't autoswitch blocks? Why?

Post by blackcelcius » Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:55 am

@pikablue thank you so much for this!

User avatar
pikablue
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:13 am
Contact:

Re: Tenori-ON can't autoswitch blocks? Why?

Post by pikablue » Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:06 am

blackcelcius wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:55 am
@pikablue thank you so much for this!
No problems. Let me know how you get on.

Not sure which version you grabbed, but I've just uploaded a new release (A016) allowing arbitrary Midi Control change messaging. You should now be able to play notes out of one layer, and CC messages out of another layer, on the same midi channel, to modify synth parameters on-the-fly.

User avatar
Paranormal Patroler
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 10853
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:40 pm
Location: the Terminal beach

Re: Tenori-ON can't autoswitch blocks? Why?

Post by Paranormal Patroler » Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:13 pm

I can't tell you how much I appreciate you doing this. The troubles I went to, to pull off some of the things you readily offer right now... like CC control.

I have both of my TOs in another country at the moment but I'll hit you up with some ideas I sent to Yamaha years ago, when they were still working on the device.

Nothing too complicated. I enjoy keeping things consistent.

And I'll be happy to beta test the firmwares when I get my devices here. This is super exciting!
All rights reserved; all wrongs reversed.

User avatar
pikablue
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:13 am
Contact:

Re: Tenori-ON can't autoswitch blocks? Why?

Post by pikablue » Thu Apr 16, 2020 5:30 pm

Found a bug :bang:

Release A015 seems to have introduced a (rather glaring) problem related to block changes that wasn't present in release A014. So until I sort out what's going on, if you want to try 256-step sequences, stay with release A014. A015+A016 are OK for testing splits and CC messaging, provided you stay in block 1...

(I really need to sort out some kind of proper set of tests).

User avatar
pikablue
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:13 am
Contact:

Re: Tenori-ON can't autoswitch blocks? Why?

Post by pikablue » Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:26 am

Bug #002 fixed in the latest release A017. (The bug - only in score mode - involved notes leaking from block N+1 to block N when a block change was done).

A017 also includes the first of several - hopefully - meta controllers. The first one is an internal block change "instrument", as described above. Using this with a slow 256-step score allows at least the start of a true sequencer. I hope to build on this and combine it with fade-in's and other things to create a true "track" layer type, but at the moment its just a collection of bits.

In principle, meta controllers can be implemented that control any internal parameter - e.g. transpose, tempo, velocity, octave, sound length - I just have to set them up. I am working on an approach which uses a meta controller in one layer to set up the scale for another layer, so that score or even solo mode, playing slow chords, can define the notes of a "scale" that is played in an much faster rhythm by another layer e.g. bounce mode with a velocity split . This is to meet my "Arpeggiator" goal.

But if there's some feature you are desperate to have, let me know and I'll see what I can do.

User avatar
Paranormal Patroler
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 10853
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:40 pm
Location: the Terminal beach

Re: Tenori-ON can't autoswitch blocks? Why?

Post by Paranormal Patroler » Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:17 pm

Thanks again for doing this. It's a second life for the TO!
All rights reserved; all wrongs reversed.

User avatar
pikablue
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:13 am
Contact:

Re: Tenori-ON can't autoswitch blocks? Why?

Post by pikablue » Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:42 pm

Paranormal Patroler wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:17 pm
Thanks again for doing this. It's a second life for the TO!
No problem. I've been poking around in the TNR for some time; only recently have I had a sufficient chunk of time to actually get something together for release.

I really like the aesthetics of the hardware, and I've still not found anything similar that really ticks all my boxes; it's just that it's firmware is strangely crippled. The normal firmware reads a bit like it was developed to a strict release deadline - it's really badly optimized, and there is loads of debugging type code left over in it that looks like it wasn't cleaned up properly in the compilation stage. (e.g. lots of unused library code for GM/XG midi implementation and so on). That might just be the Toshiba compiler, of course.

You mentioned you had a wishlist of features - can you let me know what that is so I can see if I can get any of it in? My rate of progress going forward is likely to be slower so it would be nice if I could get it doing stuff that people would actually use.

User avatar
mckenic
pew!pew!pew!kthnxbye!
Posts: 6363
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:05 pm
Location: Limerick, Ireland

Re: Tenori-ON can't autoswitch blocks? Why?

Post by mckenic » Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:12 pm

Just thought Id express my thanks too!

Ive not looked at mt TO in quite awhile - so this is inspiring me to dig back in.
Thank you!

User avatar
pikablue
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:13 am
Contact:

Re: Tenori-ON can't autoswitch blocks? Why?

Post by pikablue » Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:45 pm

mckenic wrote:
Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:12 pm
Just thought Id express my thanks too!
You might want to reserve judgement until it's been tested more thoroughly ;) There's lots of use-in-anger scenarios I doubt I've considered, so if something strange happens, let me know.

howardAMB
1-Post Wiggler
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat May 16, 2020 7:24 pm

Re: Tenori-ON can't autoswitch blocks? Why?

Post by howardAMB » Sat May 16, 2020 7:28 pm

Just was trying to switch blocks on TNR-W with MIDI when I found this tread..
Never done a firmware update but tempted to try seeing all the possibilities on PIKABLUE site.
What was your experience with this update?
Can I control block switching with midi ?

User avatar
k8bushlover
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 1:07 pm
Location: Vancouver Island

Re: Tenori-ON can't autoswitch blocks? Why?

Post by k8bushlover » Sun May 17, 2020 7:17 am

Glad it could be done, firmware looked tinkerable, but beyond this tinker! Thanks for the work!

User avatar
pikablue
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:13 am
Contact:

Re: Tenori-ON can't autoswitch blocks? Why?

Post by pikablue » Mon May 18, 2020 8:29 am

howardAMB wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 7:28 pm
What was your experience with this update?
Not sure that I can answer in an unbiased way, given that I'm the originator. I'm in direct contact with a few people who are using it; we trade feature requests ;) and bug reports :doh: . I don't know whether any of them use this forum.
howardAMB wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 7:28 pm
Can I control block switching with midi ?
Yamaha's v2.10 firmware already allows you to do quite a lot via "remote mode", including block changes. But
a) You have to construct and send Sysex commands, which is a bit of a pain, and may not be possible for your DAW/foot pedal/whatever.
b) "remote" mode means the TNR won't generate midi information itself, so it is incompatible with getting note-on/note-off information out of the TNR simultaneously

My modified firmware allows you to get around both of these limitations:
a) It responds to Midi Song Select messages (F3 0X) as a short way of commanding a block change
b) It responds to this message in normal, non-remote, mode as well.

I would thoroughly recommend you at least have a copy of the Yamaha 2.10 firmware (the last official version), so that you can go back to it if you don't like what I've done. You can still download this from the Yamaha site: Yamaha 2.10 firmware.

Hope that helps,

..pika..

Post Reply

Return to “Tenori-On”