question: how to 'smooth' S&H signal?

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apestate
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question: how to 'smooth' S&H signal?

Post by apestate » Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:06 pm

So, I like generative techniques a lot, and I'm learning how to use attenuated S&H signals to create small randomized modulations.

In Ableton's M4L LFO, I can use the random function that does something similar to a sample and hold.

Image

If I use the Smooth function, I can smooth out the transition between the steps, to avoid 'skips' and humanize certain automation types - e.g. filters with a high resonance.

Image

Which module function can I use to similarly smooth out my eurorack S&H output? I've seen people mention Slew as a way to get glides on pitch changes, so would this work here as well? How else could I do this?

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bang
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Re: question: how to 'smooth' S&H signal?

Post by bang » Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:12 pm

time warp from wmd is targeting this directly. otherwise you can use slew limiter or low pass filter with a really really low filter frequency.

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Re: question: how to 'smooth' S&H signal?

Post by Michael O. » Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:13 pm

Any slew limiter is what you’d need for that application.

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Re: question: how to 'smooth' S&H signal?

Post by apestate » Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:47 pm

Thanks! Never thought of using a LPF, that's good to know.

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Re: question: how to 'smooth' S&H signal?

Post by Pelsea » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:12 pm

Maths.
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Re: question: how to 'smooth' S&H signal?

Post by Datum » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:38 pm

A number of S&H module actually have slew limiters built into them in order to get the smooth random transitions.

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Re: question: how to 'smooth' S&H signal?

Post by wackelpeter » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:44 pm

the nicest flexibility in terms of control, especially CV control over slew function would be any variant of the Serge VCS (like already mentioned Maths)

And as it's one of the multi-functional modules i would say: get one :hihi:

Really i have no patch where i didn't use them, as audio/CV processor, envelope, lag circuit, LFO, sub-oscillator, etc... endless options and possibilities

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Re: question: how to 'smooth' S&H signal?

Post by yhf » Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:47 am

In addition to what has been suggested before: You might consider starting with something that is already smoother than stepped random, for example a triangle LFO. Adjust the LFO's rate and/or the frequency of the trigger that triggers the sample and hold until you get something nice.

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Re: question: how to 'smooth' S&H signal?

Post by SIN_formant_A1472V » Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:25 am

I recommend the Doepfer A-184-1 module which has three functions, ring modulation, sample+hold, and a slew limiter.

What is great about it is that you can split a gate, which can be fed into your snare and the 184-1, this would allow the holding function to have a very organized, rhytmically synchronous affect. You can get some pretty sweet grooves happening like that, where the sample and hold is happening in a random way, as far as cv values, but the holding is happening in synchronizaton with another element of your track, dependent on whatever gates are being sent to it.

Another trick I use is to feed the sample and hold output into an attenuator, so the range of whatever cv outputs can become minimal or more extreme throughout the track.

If you combine ring modulation, the possibilities become even more insane. Or like if you feed it a stepped randomized signal (like from the wogglebug) with a a rhythmic gate from whatever sequencer, you have a randomized cv sequencer. You can even quantize that signal so it becomes more tonal.

I use that module for so many things, plus the slew limiter function in it can be used to glide the cv. So, it can also be used in a manner very similar to an lfo, but more of a constantly mutating LFO, like a trapezoidal lfo that is constantly rising and falling, of course that is dependent on how the gates are being applied. So you can get these really complex trapezoidal or triangle shaped modulations. It's amazing. One of my favorite modules.

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Re: question: how to 'smooth' S&H signal?

Post by helix » Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:56 am

SIN_formant_A1472V wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:25 am
I recommend the Doepfer A-184-1 module which has three functions, ring modulation, sample+hold, and a slew limiter.

Just bear in mind that with the a184 there isn't a zero setting for the slew limiter. It always slews the signal even at 0 amount. Which annoyed me so much i sold it instantly! Maybe mine was faulty though

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Re: question: how to 'smooth' S&H signal?

Post by Rex Coil 7 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:28 am

helix wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:56 am
SIN_formant_A1472V wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:25 am
I recommend the Doepfer A-184-1 module which has three functions, ring modulation, sample+hold, and a slew limiter.
Just bear in mind that with the a184 there isn't a zero setting for the slew limiter. It always slews the signal even at 0 amount. Which annoyed me so much i sold it instantly! Maybe mine was faulty though
Man, I just put in about two hours diggin around in an attempt to locate any information regarding the slew limiter on that module. Nada. Other than some back shots where two trim pots are visible. Perhaps one of the trimmers can be used to dial out the slew to zero %.
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Re: question: how to 'smooth' S&H signal?

Post by Rex Coil 7 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:29 am

Pelsea wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:12 pm
Maths.
Doubtlessly.
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Re: question: how to 'smooth' S&H signal?

Post by EATyourGUITAR » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:41 am

the biggest problem with putting a linear integrator after a pulse train is that you only get linear integrated slopes out of it. if you slew a %50 duty square wave you get a perfect triangle. S&H stepped random voltages, you will have a random walk triangle. something like a mankato fillter is a real audio filter that goes down low enough to slew. maths is better in some ways because of the feedback that gives you concave and convex slopes to make a more interesting modulation. you can also run that through a triple wave folder after the slew treatment. this does two things, it changes linear modulation to curves, and it passes over your range of modulation up to 3 times for every clock tick of the sample & hold.
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Re: question: how to 'smooth' S&H signal?

Post by KSS » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:09 am

Rex Coil 7 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:28 am
Other than some back shots where two trim pots are visible. Perhaps one of the trimmers can be used to dial out the slew to zero %.
No doubt those two trims adjust the ring mod x and y offset.

OP probably had a 1M pot with too much residual resistance at the low end -fully CCW. Normally I'd suggest just putting a switch to short the slewing capacitor, but that panel really has no room. Pot w/ switch maybe. DIY type could open the pot and use some silver-laden conductive epoxy on the resistine track.

I'd be curious what Dieter has to say about it. But not curious enough to ask him.

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Re: question: how to 'smooth' S&H signal?

Post by Rex Coil 7 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:31 am

KSS wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:09 am
Rex Coil 7 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:28 am
Other than some back shots where two trim pots are visible. Perhaps one of the trimmers can be used to dial out the slew to zero %.
No doubt those two trims adjust the ring mod x and y offset.
well that makes sense.
KSS wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:09 am
OP probably had a 1M pot with too much residual resistance at the low end -fully CCW. Normally I'd suggest just putting a switch to short the slewing capacitor, but that panel really has no room. Pot w/ switch maybe.
Yea, some sort of push/pull switch-pot, or a pot with a switch on a detent at the end of the sweep, or whatever ... that would do it.
KSS wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:09 am
I'd be curious what Dieter has to say about it. But not curious enough to ask him.
I think I may give writing him a shot on this one. I've been looking for a little module with TH, SH, Slew, etc .. for my wife's little rig. Per usual, size is important (as little of it as practical) .. so the little Doepfer thing is attractive. I think there are several other manufacturers that produce similar devices, most likely best to give those a look as well. For that matter, I still have to learn more about the Ornament and Crime module she has ... for all I know that thing has all of these features (TH, SH, Slew, and so on).

.... friggin brain is on strike again this morning ...... C'MON B12 !!!!!!!!
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Re: question: how to 'smooth' S&H signal?

Post by silkynight » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:26 pm

Happy camper with my Scion here.

4 channels with slew. also quantized and plants.

Gorgeous package.

@bang Nice tip with the LPF, also nice haircut.

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Re: question: how to 'smooth' S&H signal?

Post by helix » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:06 pm

Rex Coil 7 wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:28 am
helix wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:56 am
SIN_formant_A1472V wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:25 am
I recommend the Doepfer A-184-1 module which has three functions, ring modulation, sample+hold, and a slew limiter.
Just bear in mind that with the a184 there isn't a zero setting for the slew limiter. It always slews the signal even at 0 amount. Which annoyed me so much i sold it instantly! Maybe mine was faulty though
Man, I just put in about two hours diggin around in an attempt to locate any information regarding the slew limiter on that module. Nada. Other than some back shots where two trim pots are visible. Perhaps one of the trimmers can be used to dial out the slew to zero %.
Actually if i remember rightly i emailed Dieter and he said that's how its designed and there was no 0. That was an instant sell on for me. :confused:

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Re: question: how to 'smooth' S&H signal?

Post by dragulasbruder » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:17 am

Datum wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:38 pm
A number of S&H module actually have slew limiters built into them in order to get the smooth random transitions.
While I love having this functionality on my SH-NZ, I wish the slew was patchable. After spending a little time playing a friend's SSG clone, the slew-before-sample method is really, really fun.
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