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WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

And now....the CS(R)-80 project
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Music Tech DIY  
Author And now....the CS(R)-80 project
oldcrow
For 15 years I've been wanting to make the CS-80 in a rack-mount format, but using discrete equivalent circuits instead of the Yamaha IG-series custom chips. Since that time I've slowly determined the necessary elements: my circuit for the filters turned into the MOTM-480, The VCO-III turned into the cs80.com CSVCO, the VCAs became the JH00151 and the envelope generators, after a lot of thought, I have decided to use "electric druid" power, that is, PIC-based PWM/sigma-delta modulation derived envelopes as developed by Tom Wiltshire of electricdruid.net.

But this is just the voice card. The magic of the CS-80 is less about the sound engine and more about the user performance controls. I intend to keep the modulation routing and provide for the relevant user interface inputs not only as MIDI controller messages, but as good old physical analog devices like pedals, breath controllers, etc. The advent of the programmable control surface as seen in ipads, nexus tablets, and so on makes some of the trickier parts of CS-80 user performance less of a problem for me.

One important detail in the original CS-80 is the analog audio processing that comes after the voice cards. There are the expression/wah circuit, the balanced modulator circuit and the chorusing circuit along with the stereo splitter, final volume VCAs and so on. A fair bit of this has to be re-created as they affect the final sound, even in bypass mode.

And so, it begins. I will most likely make my experimental voice card not in the form factor of a CS M board but rather in the form factor of a crOwBX voice card. This is because I am currently set up to test crOwBX voice cards. SlayerBadger!

More later.

--Crow
/**/
synthcube
Sigh eek!

In the realm of genius. Maybe, someday....
diablojoy
A CS-80! we're not worthy
dont think is gonna cover it
I should probably start saving up now then.
beesting
OMG! smile
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
A worthy project, Oldcrow! Best of luck with it (and I'm a little jealous -- I haven't worked up the courage to do anything that ambitious yet).
Isaiah
Scott, you are a wizard!


Will it be possible to make a monotimbral 4-voice with your voice cards, a la CS-50?

Not that I'll tackle either until next year, but the only difficult part now is deciding whether I'd like to (can afford) to build the crOwBX and this CS(R)-80 as mono or 4-voice variants.
oldenjon
YES
Peake
Something about dilithium crystals and cannot change the laws of physics...!!!!!
Jarno
applause we're not worthy
oldcrow
One remark: the CSR-80 is going to go at a slower pace than the crOwBX. Guinness ftw! Guinness ftw! (I have actual work too you know) screaming goo yo screaming goo yo
Jarno
Ah yes, still only human, how disappointing hihi

Retaining the crOwBX architecture seems sensible.

Edit:
Well, maybe a little bit bat-like, it's 4AM at your end right? screaming goo yo
nvining
I've been waiting for you to do this one for ages now. Even more so now that I actually have a CS80 and am concerned about the relative aging of its voice cards...

Let me know if you still need a voice card for form-factor measurements. I have a spare from a CS50 I can donate.
nickster
It's peanut butter jelly time!
nanners
It's motherfucking bacon yo
sad banana
Dead Banana
nanners
...we tiptoe amongst giants. Incredible. we're not worthy
tron23
wow my dream machine to have in a rack! hyper hihi
Moog$FooL$
my god. woah
logicgate
w00t This is fun! w00t

Drunken Homer Simpson


Me wantz
mOBiTh
totally inspiring stuff, can't wait!
magman
I will be watching this project with interest.

I picked up a set of CS80 service manuals a couple of years ago and occasionally enjoy tracing through some of the circuit diagrams, so I really appreciate the effort that this will take.

Are there likely to be any more fall out projects of this development, like the revised version of the MOTM 480?

Regards

Magman
oldcrow
480 mark 2 is actually first as I want it finished before incorporating it into a voice card. --Crow

magman wrote:
Are there likely to be any more fall out projects of this development, like the revised version of the MOTM 480?

Regards

Magman
limpmeat
I can't take it........ttoooo mannnyyy......projectsss..... Dead Banana
Synthsense
I have been waiting ages to get a decentlly priced Yamaha CS-70M just because it was the most similar synth to the CS-80 I could afford, but ...... Oldcrow you made my day! applause nanners w00t!! Suit And Tie Guy! hyper The Chewbacca Defense Bop! CHEERS!
oldcrow
As an example of the scale involved, the crOwBX filter has about 20 parts. The CSR-80 filter has about 60. Of course a CS-80 filter is 2 SVFs, but it is still a pile of parts. screaming goo yo screaming goo yo The trade-off is one VCO.
Isaiah
oldcrow
Will this project permit construction as a monotimbral synth (like the CS-50 & CS-60),
as opposed to the CS-80's duo-timbral architecture?
If so, I guess it would only need half the number of voice cards, and the Mix control would be hardwired instead of variable, right?
Would this leave half the control panel PCB unpopulated, or do you plan to have a multiple PCB solution for the control panel?

Are you sticking with slide potentiometers?

Will the builder be required to source their own MIDI-CV convertor, or will there be one specific to this project?
Maybe I misunderstood your opening post...



I realise you're in the early stages of development, I'm just curious how you're going to execute this.
I'm really looking forward to watching this develop!

Looks like 2014 could be the year I build a 4-voice OB-X and a 4-voice CS-synth!
Dude163
wow!! this would be the radness
Chok
Two years ago, I also dashed into this adventure. I used at first two NEIL JOHNSON'S SVF (18dB) to realize the filter. The envelope generator of the filter was rethought by a companion of forum ( Anafrog), as well as by Yves Usson himself. The shape of particular wave of the sawtooth was realized with a small circuit with 555 and it works well. The ring modulator was reproduced as before with the LM1496 which is a recent version of µA796... It works very well ( monophonic prototype). The second version of the filter was made with LM 13700 as on the filter Omega 80 of the Code... The particularity of Cs-80 being its keyboard, I think that the most difficult will be to redo such a controller... I am going to make a polyphonic version 4 voices with monophonic aftertouch....

For the aftertouch, I have realized this system:


Sound without aftertouch and spécial sawtooth waveform
https://soundcloud.com/chok66/cs55

I think that Scott's version will be still clearly more realistic and I look forward to hearing it....
nickster
Would it be possible to use the proposed keyboard from NVDR to cover most of the expressive keyboard ground of the CS-80?
http://www.endeavour.de/
Even if this is not appropriate for this project, I would love to see this keyboard made.
Peake
I'm sorry sir, you're over your limit of one legendary analog polysynth clone per diem. hihi

SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger!
oldcrow
Per diem? More like per annum. This one will take a while. screaming goo yo screaming goo yo screaming goo yo

Peake wrote:
I'm sorry sir, you're over your limit of one legendary analog polysynth clone per diem. hihi

SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger!
Isaiah
oldcrow
Hey Scott, just wondered if there was any news on this project Rockin' Banana!
oldcrow
Well, I finished the MOTM-480 mkII which sort of counts toward this as I needed to get a new filter circuit locked down before continuing here. This thing currently sits in schematic capture about half done; prototype boards are not going to be M-board form factor as I need to build them for proof of concept first. --Crow

Isaiah wrote:
oldcrow
Hey Scott, just wondered if there was any news on this project :bananaguitar:
coopersloan
oldcrow wrote:
Well, I finished the MOTM-480 mkII which sort of counts toward this as I needed to get a new filter circuit locked down before continuing here. This thing currently sits in schematic capture about half done; prototype boards are not going to be M-board form factor as I need to build them for proof of concept first. --Crow

Isaiah wrote:
oldcrow
Hey Scott, just wondered if there was any news on this project Rockin' Banana!


Hi Scott, Any chance you still have interest in replicating some of the IG chips as discrete daughter boards or PICs for the old synths?
wutierson
Quote:
Hi Scott, Any chance you still have interest in replicating some of the IG chips as discrete daughter boards or PICs for the old synths?


This is great question I hope the answer can be affirmative, lot of people can be happy with chip replacements to stop dismantle the little CS's to repair the bigs.
oldcrow
Got my initial bare prototype boards for CSR-80 today. These are in the form factor of a crowbx as I have things set up here to test crowbx voices. My CS-80 circuits are used here. Bonus on this board is I left the 2nd (OBX) VCO there for extra fun. "Real" CS-80 voicing means just turn the 2nd VCO off. SlayerBadger! This board is a 1V/Oct response again for easier testing. When I have it all built and tested/debugged I'll go for the actual V/Hz M board. --Crow

(The smaller blue board with some parts on it is a CS80 filterboard I made for my Shruthi, FYI)

mOBiTh
mmmmmmmmmmm looks tasty.

So the extra obx oscillator - can you sync it to the cs-80 osc as on the crowbx?

i'm drooling already..... MY ASS IS BLEEDING
mOBiTh
i'd better start saving meh Dead Banana
oldcrow
Everything the crowbx has is still there. Sync, xmod, etc. The main differences are the 1st VCO has a few changes to implement the CS80 ramp profile as well as the tri/sine shaper+VCA, the filter is now my mkII CS80 filter circuit and the VCF EG is scaled as per a CS80 filter EG. Four additional
card edge signals now exist: sine level, highpass filter CV, highpass filter resonance and a 4th "secret" parameter. SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger! SlayerBadger!

There is also an experimental circuit at the lower left of the board that involves a PIC, 4-channel DAC and other stuff. I won't be working with that section for a while yet, however.

But first, I have the SMT crowbx to deal with. It's peanut butter jelly time! nanners sad banana Dead Banana Dead Banana

mOBiTh wrote:
mmmmmmmmmmm looks tasty.

So the extra obx oscillator - can you sync it to the cs-80 osc as on the crowbx?

i'm drooling already..... MY ASS IS BLEEDING
Isaiah
Looking good! thumbs up

Are you using a hardware FEG now, or is that just a CrOwBX EG used temporarily?
Synthsense
Neat! I just can't believe how fast things are moving lately in Muffwiggler, a clone of the CS-80 is like a dream made true, Thanks OldCrow

applause we're not worthy
oldcrow
It is a crowbx EG adjusted to operate like a Yamaha filter EG. --Crow

Isaiah wrote:
Are you using a hardware FEG now, or is that just a CrOwBX EG used temporarily?
nvining
Any plans on making the CS80 Shruthi filter publicly available?
oldcrow
Yes. My CS80 filter board will be offered in the same open-source hardware manner as Mutable's. I just need to verify it before tossing things up on github. I may offer some bare boards for those who don't care to roll their own as well. --Crow

nvining wrote:
Any plans on making the CS80 Shruthi filter publicly available?
mOBiTh
http://www.ebay.de/itm/371061483340?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&_trks id=p3984.m1423.l2649

eek!


MY ASS IS BLEEDING

let's get building! It's peanut butter jelly time!
scriptstyle
i don't know how I am just seeing this now woah woah woah
I miss my CS-60 so much, and i will have to set some time aside to figure how I can make this a reality for my self. Oldcrow your awesome thanks we're not worthy
Isaiah
oldcrow wrote:
It is a crowbx EG adjusted to operate like a Yamaha filter EG. --Crow

Isaiah wrote:
Are you using a hardware FEG now, or is that just a CrOwBX EG used temporarily?


So are you able to get the Initial Level and Attack Level functionality from it?
Is it just a place-holder? I believe you said before about implementing the FEG using a PIC.
oldcrow
This test board uses an ADSR but offset to simulate the IL-A-AL-DR response. The final version that will go into an M board will use a different circuit. --Crow

[quote="Isaiah"]
Isaiah wrote:
Are you using a hardware FEG now, or is that just a CrOwBX EG used temporarily?

So are you able to get the Initial Level and Attack Level functionality from it?
Is it just a place-holder? I believe you said before about implementing the FEG using a PIC.
oldcrow
Yeah, this sort of thing is what made me decide to do crowbx. I have two CS-80s but keeping them alive grows more challenging every year, thus my goal of making M boards, a new key assigner, etc.

The CS80 voice itself is simpler than that of the OBX, but it has certain tone qualities I must recover exactly, which is why I spent the past 15 years perfecting the circuits I use. SlayerBadger!

mOBiTh wrote:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/371061483340?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&_trks id=p3984.m1423.l2649

eek!


MY ASS IS BLEEDING

let's get building! It's peanut butter jelly time!
bkbirge
Subbed and lurking in amazement.

Why not just keep it v/o instead of v/hz though? Historical or does it have something to do with the sound?
oldcrow
For the rackmount version I want to make I will probably keep it 1V/oct because it is easier to deal with MIDI control using commercial MIDI/CV units. For actual CS M boards they need to be V/Hz because the key assigner works with the glissando clock and pitch ribbon such that the frequency can go to zero Hz. This response has to be maintained if it is to work in a CS-50/60/80 transparently.

bkbirge wrote:
Why not just keep it v/o instead of v/hz though? Historical or does it have something to do with the sound?
flts
This is my obligatory post to subscribe to notifications.

I'm glad this is finally happening but isn't super close to production yet - I definitely want to build a rackmount version one day, but I'm not sure if I'll have the endurance for a few months now after spending the spring building the TTSH, a 4-voice CrOwBX, a MS10/MS20 semimodular soundalike and a 2ch old school preamp / DI. Still quite a few evenings to go until even these things are finished... lol
Isaiah
oldcrow
Thanks for the info Scott.

I understand it might be too early to say, but would this project (especially the control board) be suitable for making a rackmount CS-50 (4-voice, monotimbral)?
oldcrow
I do not yet know what I will do for a CS-50/60/80 style system. There is as much to a CS-80's user performance controls as there is to the tone generator system and I need to make both happen for it to be in that narrow range that says "this is a CS-80."

I may do a bi-timbral CS(R)-15 sort of approach first just to get a handle on the control system. I would make this as a 3U x 19" rack panel similar to how the Evenfall Minimodular was implemented. We'll see. --Crow

Isaiah wrote:
oldcrow
Thanks for the info Scott.

I understand it might be too early to say, but would this project (especially the control board) be suitable for making a rackmount CS-50 (4-voice, monotimbral)?
malnatim
we're not worthy
portobellovcs3
Crow, I want to thank you for undertaking this project. I will be waiting to purchase when available. The CS-80 is my favourite synth of all time. I remember a used one for sale in a music store in Toronto in the early 90s for around $2,000 in excellent condition. I was a teen at the time and didn't know how great the thing was. I only understood how large and heavy it was. So I walked out the door with a Juno 60 instead.
nvining
I just can't wait for a new source of M-Boards. Actually owning a CS80 is a strange exercise in sheer mortal terror that the damned thing might explode at any moment.

A lot of the magic of the CS80 is in its controls, which are interesting, to say the least. In some ways, this is its own weird problem: I don't know of a source for the rotary slide potentiometers that the CS80 uses (like all of the Electone organs), other than going out and killing your grandmother's old DK-40 for parts. There is a strange magic in a control that isn't quite a linear potentiometer for performance, but I don't know anybody who makes anything even remotely like those sliders any more.
wsy
nvining wrote:
I just can't wait for a new source of M-Boards. Actually owning a CS80 is a strange exercise in sheer mortal terror that the damned thing might explode at any moment.

A lot of the magic of the CS80 is in its controls, which are interesting, to say the least. In some ways, this is its own weird problem: I don't know of a source for the rotary slide potentiometers that the CS80 uses (like all of the Electone organs), other than going out and killing your grandmother's old DK-40 for parts. There is a strange magic in a control that isn't quite a linear potentiometer for performance, but I don't know anybody who makes anything even remotely like those sliders any more.


Actually, I have a solution.

IIRC from my days in college, part of the magic of the CS-80 was the note cards, part was the double-knee filter, and part was the polyphonic aftertouch.

You can make the polyphonic aftertouch by using a 3D printer to actually print the keys, and a bunch of pressure-sensitive resistors to register pressure on a per-note basis.

And the ribbon- that's easy. Sparkfun makes something more than close enough.

- Bill
dougt
nvining wrote:
I don't know of a source for the rotary slide potentiometers that the CS80 uses (like all of the Electone organs).


I have some of those "quadrant" style slide pots if you need any...
nvining
dougt wrote:
nvining wrote:
I don't know of a source for the rotary slide potentiometers that the CS80 uses (like all of the Electone organs).


I have some of those "quadrant" style slide pots if you need any...


I'm good - and yeah, synth parts people selling quadrant slide pots do exist, and there's also a pretty good collection of Electone organs to start gutting and smashing. But it is a thing that stands in the way of making an authentic-feeling CS80 (or even a CS80-esque controller.) The flight simulator community also has this problem, interestingly.
Chok
My monophonic current version of Cs 80 (without certain parameters managed by chips YM) works very well with cloning of the EG VCF ...... I use filters SVF 12dB of mass MFOS monophonic aftertouch, ring modulator as the original with LM1496 (DIP version of µA796)...
Exemple of sound here:
https://soundcloud.com/chok66/ring-the-beast
In the example above, I replaced filters SVF by one 904 Moog and that gives close results for Vangelis typical sounds razz
bkbirge
Chok wrote:
My monophonic current version of Cs 80 (without certain parameters managed by chips YM) works very well with cloning of the EG VCF ...... I use filters SVF 12dB of mass MFOS monophonic aftertouch, ring modulator as the original with LM1496 (DIP version of µA796)...
Exemple of sound here:
https://soundcloud.com/chok66/ring-the-beast
In the example above, I replaced filters SVF by one 904 Moog and that gives close results for Vangelis typical sounds razz



Great sounds!
Chok
I agree with you even if sounds are very Vangelis like, we are far from the raw sound of Cs-80 which is for me too the best analog synthesizer thanks to its brilliant expressiveness.... I have a lot of work to be made, I had left to use a panel of Cs-60 but I am redesigned a new panel, by using Yamaha's sliders and switchs ....
8_)
apoisontree
A CS80 filter card for the Shruthi? MY ASS IS BLEEDING MY ASS IS BLEEDING
Where do I sign?

we're not worthy
General Electron
Will this include 1000 ultra-sensitive trim pots to keep everything in tune? Or do you think this important feature can simulated digitally? One could include an accelerometer, so that if it detected the instrument being moved, everything would become misadjusted, requiring several hours of recalibration.

One can never be too authentic.
killbot
Thank you Crow,
not holding my breath but very excited to find I may one day be able to build an entire set of new CS M boards to use in my CS80, with all discrete components, will be keeping an eager eye to the availability of such a thing
TMA-1
Out of curiosity, will the VCO153TH boards ever be restocked, or do you see no point in doing so with the advent of this project?

And, while I'm asking pesky questions... maybe someone else can even answer this. What exactly is included in the MKII filter board set? One board is $25, the jack board is $6, and the bundle is $40 for "four boards" - meaning two filters boards and two jack boards? If so, that's a friggin' STEAL!

On the other hand, maybe I should wait for the CS(R)-80 to be finished... urgh, decisions...
magman
TMA-1 wrote:
And, while I'm asking pesky questions... maybe someone else can even answer this. What exactly is included in the MKII filter board set? One board is $25, the jack board is $6, and the bundle is $40 for "four boards" - meaning two filters boards and two jack boards? If so, that's a friggin' STEAL!.

Not quite, the 4 PCB's are the filter board, a normal jack board, an extended jack board and a pot board. These additional boards are normally $6 each, so you save a grand total of $3 if you buy the set, still worth it though if you are building the 3U version of this filter.

I've got a 2U and 3U set on their way to me right now. hihi

Regards

Magman
nvining
Any word on the glorious mission? I fired up my CS80 the other day after a long move and a couple of M-boards appear to be dying... :(
Chok
Question for Scott: Do you know the method to modify the sawtooth shape from a commercial VCO to add it the small square of 30µs? I know that it pulses is independent from the frequency and that its amplitude is lower in 500mV.. seriously, i just don't get it

Thanks for advance
oldcrow
One day MW will notify me of updates to certain threads.

In the case of the IG00153 and my VCO153, the 30us reset pulse comes from the output of the (this is internal to the IG00153 or in my case RC4151 chip) comparator's R-C one-shot circuit. It is set to 30us to cover the maximum expected slew time for the timing capacitor at the highest frequency it is scaled to provide (2' stop on the CS-80). Provided you have a point in a circuit you can tap for the comparator and use the state change to fire a 30us one-shot, you can then scale and sum the ramp and reset pulse to obtain the characteristic CS VCO waveform. My waveform mixer is two transistors and five resistors.

FWIW you do not have to use a 4151 to make a CS VCO, I just did so because it was convenient--it has all the building blocks I needed. My very first VCO153 from 2000-2001 or so just used TL072s and an LM393 (and a FET, etc.) in the VCO core.

Crow
/**/

Chok wrote:
Question for Scott: Do you know the method to modify the sawtooth shape from a commercial VCO to add it the small square of 30µs? I know that it pulses is independent from the frequency and that its amplitude is lower in 500mV.. :despair:

Thanks for advance
oldcrow
I am taking an intermediate step in this project first: I am making a rack-mounted CS-15 equivalent to work out the contiguous voicing scheme as my M480 and VCO153 are 1v/oct devices and I need to make sure everything works as advertised in a V/Hz scheme. This will test my linear VCO153, linear M480, linear IG00150 equivelant (LFO) and The EGs and VCAs.

Then I build a proper M board. SlayerBadger!

Crow
/**/

nvining wrote:
Any word on the glorious mission? I fired up my CS80 the other day after a long move and a couple of M-boards appear to be dying... :(
oldcrow
I will have another 20 VCO153TH boards in around October 15th (2014). VCO153s will still be offered. As will M480 filters.

An M480 board set is the filter board plus the jack and pot boards needed to build the fully-equipped M480 filter+linear VCA. Strictly speaking you only need the filter board for this, but I like minimal wiring so I devised the other boards to use ribbon cables instead of 50 flying wires. screaming goo yo screaming goo yo

Crow
/**/

TMA-1 wrote:
Out of curiosity, will the VCO153TH boards ever be restocked, or do you see no point in doing so with the advent of this project?

And, while I'm asking pesky questions... maybe someone else can even answer this. What exactly is included in the MKII filter board set? One board is $25, the jack board is $6, and the bundle is $40 for "four boards" - meaning two filters boards and two jack boards? If so, that's a friggin' STEAL!

On the other hand, maybe I should wait for the CS(R)-80 to be finished... urgh, decisions...
Maco
hi oldcrow i want a filter bundle and 2 vco

thanks
aladan
oldcrow wrote:
One day MW will notify me of updates to certain threads.


Here's what I think is happening (this happens to me often, too).

I get a notification email telling me a thread has been updated. I click through, read the thread, then close the browser window. I don't have to login to read a thread (except for B/S/T), so Muffs has no way to know that I've actually read the thread. So when someone else posts to it later on, I don't get notified me (because as far as the forum is concerned I still haven't checked in since the last email it sent me).

To me, it just looks like I haven't received an update notification from the forum for a new post to a thread since the last time I read it.

The best thing to do to avoid this happening is to make sure that every time you read a thread on Muffs you are absolutely definitely logged in properly (at the top of the screen it says "You have no new messages" rather than "Please login to read your messages"). Especially if you use multiple devices (computer, phone, tablet, etc).

Cheers,
A.
baloo
Could I reserve one VCO153TH + AM830 boards ?
baloo
magman wrote:

Not quite, the 4 PCB's are the filter board, a normal jack board, an extended jack board and a pot board. These additional boards are normally $6 each, so you save a grand total of $3 if you buy the set, still worth it though if you are building the 3U version of this filter.

I've got a 2U and 3U set on their way to me right now. hihi

Regards

Magman


Which of them should I get for building a 3U version? hmmm.....
Isaiah
oldcrow
I was researching the CS-series monosynths yesterday, so I'm glad you've updated this thread.

Ignoring differences like LFO waveshape and such, it seems like:
•CS-15 is two CS-5s with some audio and modulation routing between voices. Kind of like a CS-80 voice in that it's multi-timbral.
But the filters are always in parallel, right?
It also has the Glide feature, unique in the CS-series, as far as I have researched anyway.
•CS-10 is (mostly) like a CS-5 with a CS-50/80 VCF-EG.
Perhaps that makes it more like a CS-50 voice, it just lacks the HP->LP VCF and Sine->VCA routing.

It seems to me that each of the CS-series monosynths has its own unique feature set, with 'bigger' models not necessarily being 'better'.
Each model has its own advantages and quirks.


Are the VCFs used in polyphonic models just two of the VCFs from the monophonic models in series?
Or is the VCF core itself different?

Do you plan to make your rack-mount CS-15 available as a project in its own right?

Are you going down the software route for the polyphonic model VCF-EGs?

Do you think your CS(R)-80 project will lend itself to being built as a monosynth without all the polyphonic bells and whistles.


I did have a VCO153, a GX-BPF and a pair of MOTM-485 PCBs set aside to make a Yamaha monosynth, but I had to clear my backlog to generate some cash.
I'd be keen to build a monophonic voice in a format I can gig with (maybe a 4U boat or a keyboard, as opposed to a monster rack unit) so I'm curious to hear what you think is in store for this project.

Do you plan to release a VCF-EG (IA, AL, D, S, R) PCB?
Would my best option be to cobble a voice together from your individual PCBs?

Thanks!
ndkent
Always wanted to "patch out" a CS-30 like people do to Avatars, I think of it as the closest Yamaha came to building a modular synth as it already offere flexible modulation.

Actually since I don't own a CS-15, is there a way to either patch or kludgethrough the external in so the filters are in series? Just curious.

Anyway besides the extra envelope and ringmod, the CS-30 gives you the filters switchable from parallel to series though of course the CS-80 gives you 2 parallel layers of a HP and LP in series per voice
Isaiah
ndkent
Yeah, the CS-30 seems like a single CS-50 voice (extra VCO and ADSR) with extensive audio and modulation routing options.
I'd love one, even without the sequencer.
oldcrow
The main reason I am working out my version of a CSR-15 ('R' for 'Rack') is that I have a CS-15 and I want to make/offer replacement boards for the vintage instrument. It just so happens this will test most of my finished-but-not-yet-an-ensemble CS voice elements. I've had the VCO done for 14 years, the VCF done for 13 years, the VCA for 12 years and the EGs (both ADSR and ILALADR) for 7 years. Just not all in one chain....until now. SlayerBadger!

Crow
/**/

Isaiah wrote:
oldcrow
I was researching the CS-series monosynths yesterday, so I'm glad you've updated this thread.

Ignoring differences like LFO waveshape and such, it seems like:
•CS-15 is two CS-5s with some audio and modulation routing between voices. Kind of like a CS-80 voice in that it's multi-timbral.
But the filters are always in parallel, right?
It also has the Glide feature, unique in the CS-series, as far as I have researched anyway.
•CS-10 is (mostly) like a CS-5 with a CS-50/80 VCF-EG.
Perhaps that makes it more like a CS-50 voice, it just lacks the HP->LP VCF and Sine->VCA routing.

It seems to me that each of the CS-series monosynths has its own unique feature set, with 'bigger' models not necessarily being 'better'.
Each model has its own advantages and quirks.


Are the VCFs used in polyphonic models just two of the VCFs from the monophonic models in series?
Or is the VCF core itself different?

Do you plan to make your rack-mount CS-15 available as a project in its own right?

Are you going down the software route for the polyphonic model VCF-EGs?

Do you think your CS(R)-80 project will lend itself to being built as a monosynth without all the polyphonic bells and whistles.


I did have a VCO153, a GX-BPF and a pair of MOTM-485 PCBs set aside to make a Yamaha monosynth, but I had to clear my backlog to generate some cash.
I'd be keen to build a monophonic voice in a format I can gig with (maybe a 4U boat or a keyboard, as opposed to a monster rack unit) so I'm curious to hear what you think is in store for this project.

Do you plan to release a VCF-EG (IA, AL, D, S, R) PCB?
Would my best option be to cobble a voice together from your individual PCBs?

Thanks!
Isaiah
oldcrow
Sounds like a smart way to go about testing, making new stuff as a by-product.



I'm just trying to figure out my options...
•Buy a CS-10/15.
Eventually you will be offering replacement boards for all the submodules, right? That might put my mind at ease about buying an old unit.

•Build a CSR-15.
Is it likely you'll offer PCBs for this?
Although this lacks the more unusual Filter-EG, the Sine wave routed directly to the VCA, ability to route the filters in series, I'm sure they could be added with a few mods, no?
This is certainly the most appealing option for me personally, if you deem your CSR-15 fit for public consumption! hihi

•Build my own CS-style mono.
I can get the VCO153 and M480 from you, but what about the ADSR, Filter-EG (IL,AL,A,D,R), VCA, RM and LFO?

•Build a single voice CSR-80.
Obviously this will not be available for a while...

Thanks in advance!
Luap
I know this isn't quite what this thread is about, but I would definitely be interested in a CS80 filter board for the Shruthi thumbs up

(And if you were to mention it on the MI forum, I imagine you'd have a bunch more people interested in buying them too)
Brownian Lotion
I am watching this with a keen eye.

As the former owner of a CS-60, the current owner of a SY-1 (needing repair on the pulse-width circuit) and also a SE Omega with "CS-80" filters (hahaha) I've still been lusting after... a CS-70m!

One feature in particular that I'm keen on is analog linear fm with stable oscillators in a polysynth. The CS-70m has autotune and is apparently "too clean" for analog hipsters, which makes it sound like it's perfect for fm if the autotune doesn't interfere with it.

Plus I like the "m" line of yamaha filters a little more than the straight cs filters. But that's just me. Also, the difference is minor.

EDIT: So anyway, that was off topic. Any chance of this CSR80 voice having the option of linear fm? (i.e. a VCA or digital resistor for feeding the sine of osc 2 into osc 1?)
synthetic
Such an amazing project. I had sworn off DIY after too many failed projects but I might need to make this one happen for my dream synth. Even if I have to hire someone to finish it for me. smile

Could you make it respond to poly aftertouch over MIDI? For the dozen of us with PAT keyboards?
Fubard
Ok I'm a little slow so please bear with me for a sec.

It sounds like you've been hard at work on CS replacements for many many years and that's a indispensable contribution to us who own and love the very unique vintage gear. I also understand you are planning on offering sonically identical voice boards using currently available discrete circuitry for existing CS80s and that's a flippin lifesaver for those who have one.

But does this also mean to say you are planning to offer a way for a guy like me to build an entire cs80 clone from scratch?

If this is indeed the case then...

Holy F^€K. woah

(And)

Where do I sign up? hyper
Chok
Isaiah wrote:


•Build my own CS-style mono.
I can get the VCO153 and M480 from you, but what about the ADSR, Filter-EG (IL,AL,A,D,R), VCA, RM and LFO?...


It is exactly what I am making at present.
I have not solved the problem of the sawtooth of the VCO. I use two VCF (SVF) 12dB . Yves Usson (and an another DIYer) created a clone of the generator of envelope of the VCF of Cs (look on this tread: Anafrog french forum

The VCA is classic, its envelope also. The ring modulator comes true by resuming the schematic of polyphonic Cs and by using the LM1496 instead of the original circuit ( not compatible pinout)...

Sub osc (LFO) is classic to.

I am finishing a monophonic complete voice. I would post photos, schematics and audio extracts as soon as it will be ready.... Sorry for my English, I use an on-line translator
oldcrow
I am pushing a number of projects, but I've not forgotten this one as recreating the CS-80 has been one of my long-term goals for 20 years now. Since I am working on an 8-voice crOwBX I decided that the initial test voices for the CSR-80 could be made in the same form factor. So, I made these:



This is a complete CSR-80 prototype voice with a few extras added. It is done in crOwBX form factor to make testing easier as I have a rig for testing crOwBX hardware already. Once I get through final revisions I will convert this to Yamaha M-board sized SMT.

--Crow
/**/
Synthsense
oldcrow wrote:
I am pushing a number of projects, but I've not forgotten this one as recreating the CS-80 has been one of my long-term goals for 20 years now. Since I am working on an 8-voice crOwBX I decided that the initial test voices for the CSR-80 could be made in the same form factor. So, I made these:



This is a complete CSR-80 prototype voice with a few extras added. It is done in crOwBX form factor to make testing easier as I have a rig for testing crOwBX hardware already. Once I get through final revisions I will convert this to Yamaha M-board sized SMT.

--Crow
/**/


Wow zombie

So, we do need 8 of those? Jesus The CS-80 was indeed a 'Big synth' Keep doing so well mate, Just a couple of years ago I couldn't imagine that a project like this would be possible we're not worthy

Cheers!
oldcrow
Eight of these gets you the CS-60 once the rest of the system to support them exists. For the CS-80 you need sixteen voice cards arranged as 2x8. screaming goo yo screaming goo yo

Synthsense wrote:
So, we do need 8 of those? Jesus The CS-80 was indeed a 'Big synth' Keep doing so well mate, Just a couple of years ago I couldn't imagine that a project like this would be possible we're not worthy

Cheers!
aladan
oldcrow wrote:
Eight of these gets you the CS-60 once the rest of the system to support them exists. For the CS-80 you need sixteen voice cards arranged as 2x8. screaming goo yo screaming goo yo

Synthsense wrote:
So, we do need 8 of those? Jesus The CS-80 was indeed a 'Big synth' Keep doing so well mate, Just a couple of years ago I couldn't imagine that a project like this would be possible we're not worthy

Cheers!


Far out. Sixteen of those is a lot of soldering and an ridiculous pile of parts. And I thought the crOwBX was a big build... I think I'll just set aside a whole month of leave for when that one comes around.

Cheers,
A.
Amararmand
Power for modular
Chok
Whaou, Scott, Amazing pcb eek!

I see that you added an oscillator by voice or I am wrong...

In the interesting goodies for Cs, multimode for filters, oscillators PWM and of the sub osc with routing which are well, synchronization of the sub osc on an external signal, the same goes for the VC LFO of the ring modulator.... (not in voice board)
jflower
excellent news!
nvining
FYI, Scott: I see that Exar has quietly discontinued the XR4151 for the charge pump VCO; the RC4151 is already obsolete. Will the LM331 or the KA331 do as substitutes?
oldcrow
JRC still makes them. I also have a version of the circuit that does not need a 4151. --Crow

nvining wrote:
FYI, Scott: I see that Exar has quietly discontinued the XR4151 for the charge pump VCO; the RC4151 is already obsolete. Will the LM331 or the KA331 do as substitutes?
calaveras
Hmm after I finish building everything from 4ms Synthrotek and Erica I may have to decide between this and the crOwBoX.
Truth be told I will probably wuss out and go for the OB!
(all my favorite early early 80's bands used the OBX and it sounded different with each of them!)
nvining
It looks like the new Infinite Response keyboard kickstarter has successfully cleared the launching bay:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1200817609/vax-midi-keyboard-cont roller

Since it's a DIY kit, modular, and everything is open source under Creative Commons license, I'd say it's a good candidate for a keycontroller for this project once it's ready to go. 8 octave CS80, anybody? smile
nvining
Thread necromancy: any word on this, Scott? I saw a first PCB draft but then silence and various other things like the Crowminius happened.
oldcrow
This is still happening, it is just that the 8-voice crowbx has to happen first so I can figure out how to use it as the basis for the CSR-80 system.

nvining wrote:
Thread necromancy: any word on this, Scott? I saw a first PCB draft but then silence and various other things like the Crowminius happened.
tobb
Amazing project,hats off!
Macron
+1, DIY CS-80 in rack with external keyboard, for example upcoming keyboard from Alex Pleninger (https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=146364), it is definitely interested!
Synthsense
Hey OldCrow

Do you plan for the near future an 8 voice controller board for the Crowminius? That would be a dream made true: What the the real Memorymoog would had to be, 8 Minimoogs in one, and not the one with CEM chips. And don't misunderstand me, even so, the Memorymoog is an incredible synthesizer.

Cheers! hyper
jhulk
memorymoog is 6 voices and it has 9 oscillators not just 3 like the minimoog

the crominus using 6 gang pots and 6 gang switches could easily be made into a poly synth with a poly dac

does not even sound like a mini moog it blows speaker cabs very easily
jhulk
hi scott received the crowbx boards nice are you going to be doing a run of the 8 voice boards as this is going into a keyboard case and would love for it to be an 8 voice
Synthsense
Hi Jhulk

You are right, the Memorymoog is 6 voices, not 8, and x3 VCOs per voice, so it is an 18 VCO monster. Those VCOs though, aren't discrete, they use Curtis CEM ones, so this synth sounds closer to a Prophet 5 or OB-8 than 6 Minimoogs together. That's why I think, stacking 6 or 8 Crowminius voice boards would be a dream come true for many of us

Happy to know that the efforts gone with other Polyphonic projects from OldCrow may be applied here

Cheers! Guinness ftw!
nvining
Any word on this? It's been awhile since you received draft PCBs...
mrand
Hopefully buying a cs50 in a couple weeks, so reviewing this thread with interest.
muffdiver
Any update on the this?
Chok
Thank you for your answer to my question, Scott Rockin' Banana!
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