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[PROJECT] Music Thing Spring Reverb
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Music Tech DIY  
Author [PROJECT] Music Thing Spring Reverb
Tombola

The Music Thing Spring Reverb is a flexible, easy-to-build voltage controlled 6HP DIY mono spring reverb module.
- Works with a variety of spring reverb tanks (including the A199 mini tank), or with the Accutronics BTDR-2 reverb ‘brick’ designed by Brian Neunaber
- Two cheap PCB panel designs - one with front panel sockets for the reverb tank
- Vactrol crossfade between dry and wet
- Tilt EQ on the reverb send to tune the voice of the reverb
- X-Fade input so the module can also be used as a standalone vactrol crossfader (crossfade demo video)
- Attenuverter on the crossfade CV input

All the details are on the Music Thing Spring Reverb Project Page including:
- Big instruction & build manual that will answer all your questions (PDF)
- Schematic (PDF)
- Eagle and Gerber files, front panel specifications, a Mouser BOM etc

THONK will be offering PCBs and panels
waveglider
Excellent applause

nice redesign on your site too!
diablojoy
orsm tom
I actually have a few reverb bricks sitting in my parts bin
might just have to try this out.
Isaiah
Excellent work, Tom!

I only discovered this project earlier in the week and it's the perfect final piece in my modular puzzle.



A few questions:

Is the small blue reverb tank shown in the build document available yet?
Could you share details please?

The panel documents show the co-ordinates and diameters of all the panel-mounted components.
Could you tell me the co-ordinates of the PCB mounting holes relative to these please?
I'd like to mount the PCB sandwich parallel to the panel but using stand-offs.

Do you know if Thonk will be keeping stock of the Spring PCBs, like your Turing Machine?

Thanks for making this project available!
Tombola
Isaiah wrote:

Is the small blue reverb tank shown in the build document available yet?
Could you share details please?


It's on the Accutronics site: http://www.accutronicsreverb.com/main/?skin=sub01_08.html
I think they'll sell direct and they're looking for retailers.

Isaiah wrote:
The panel documents show the co-ordinates and diameters of all the panel-mounted components.
Could you tell me the co-ordinates of the PCB mounting holes relative to these please?
I'd like to mount the PCB sandwich parallel to the panel but using stand-offs.


Sorry, I don't have that information - I'd have to go back to the Eagle files and do a bit of maths.

Isaiah wrote:
Do you know if Thonk will be keeping stock of the Spring PCBs, like your Turing Machine?


I can't speak for Steven, but I think that's what he's planning.
Tombola
Here's a video showing the crossfade mode; mixing between Fold and Square outputs from a DPO

mystico
all the demos sound absolutely fantastic. very keen for this, the crossfader functionality is a great bonus too. nice work applause
regenbot
perfect applause
Spip
Really nice thumbs up

Is it possible to buy the PCBs ? Will you make them or someone else, maybe ?
Spip
After a quick look at the BOM, I don't see the vactrols Silonex 32SR3 and VTL5C3 in the list ?
Am I missing something ?

I already have almost all the other parts though ! w00t
Tombola
Spip wrote:
After a quick look at the BOM, I don't see the vactrols Silonex 32SR3 and VTL5C3 in the list ?
Am I missing something ?

I already have almost all the other parts though ! w00t


Sorry, Mouser don't sell vactrols at all (or any LDRs). You can get VTL5C3s from Thonk or the Silonex from Farnell.

If you have the choice and you're going to the the x-fade mode at all, I'd choose the VTL5C3 - it's smoother and slower response.
Monobass


I've made PCB and parts orders for kits so its all well underway.

Will have 4 panel options.

Aluminium panel - Tank connection on front
Aluminium panel - Tank connection on back
Low cost PCB panel - Tank connection on front
Low cost PCB panel - Tank connection on back
rosch
this is cool! so i can also use the bricks!
just perfect to build more than one hihi
Isaiah
Monobass
Rockin' Banana!
Will you also stock just the PCBs?
Monobass
Yup thumbs up
Spip
@Tombola : Thanks. It seems that Thonk will also sell the PCBs. That's handy.

@Monobass : I don't see them on your site. Any idea of the prices for just the PCBs (and some vactrols).
Monobass
It'll be 3-4 weeks until they're in stock. Will have prices a day or so before they are in stock.
Spip
Ok. Thanks !
jasonh23
nanners

Sounds fantastic!
Isaiah
Tombola
Thanks for all the information thumbs up
I'm looking forward to using this!


Tombola wrote:
Isaiah wrote:
The panel documents show the co-ordinates and diameters of all the panel-mounted components.
Could you tell me the co-ordinates of the PCB mounting holes relative to these please?
I'd like to mount the PCB sandwich parallel to the panel but using stand-offs.


Sorry, I don't have that information - I'd have to go back to the Eagle files and do a bit of maths.


If there's any chance somebody could check the files I wouldbe most grateful.
Thanks!
Thinksyncopated
Monobass wrote:
It'll be 3-4 weeks until they're in stock. Will have prices a day or so before they are in stock.


Cool! I'll be in for it for sure. Have an A-199 but want the CV features in this.
Monobass
It leaves the 199 in the dust of its wake smile

It makes the 199 tank sound hi-fi too hihi
logicgate
are you storing the tanks too, mate? I mean, they will be in the kit?
Thinksyncopated
Monobass wrote:
It leaves the 199 in the dust of its wake smile

It makes the 199 tank sound hi-fi too hihi


Haha in what sense do you mean that? (Re: making the 199 tank sound hifi)
Tombola
Thinksyncopated wrote:
Monobass wrote:

It makes the 199 tank sound hi-fi too hihi


Haha in what sense do you mean that? (Re: making the 199 tank sound hifi)


I think he means that you can plug the reverb tank from a A199 into the Music Thing module, and you'll get a cleaner, sharper, more bass, more highs sound.

I haven't been able to try it myself, but the intention of this module is to provide a warm, deep, clear reverb which can then be messed up in a whole variety of ways.
falafelbiels
I love it already...
Spandex
...
Monobass
logicgate wrote:
are you storing the tanks too, mate? I mean, they will be in the kit?


Not for the first run as they are very easily available elsewhere and I'll be focussing on Frontpanel, component and PCB inventory.

From the manual:

Tombola wrote:
4a: Which Tank?

Short version: If you’re buying a new tank, I’d recommend one of these fairly common models:

Accutronics 9EB2C1B A big 17” long reverb tank with six springs.

Accutronics 8EB2C1B A smaller 10” version with three springs. This is the tank from a Fender Blues Junior amp, so is very common.

Other makes with the same number (i.e. MOD 8EB2C1B ) will work in the same way. The Ruby 3EB2C1B also looks nice.


I bought the 9EB2C1B from hotroxuk and it sounds and works great (came 2 days after order too).

UK - http://www.hotroxuk.com/accutronics-reverb-tank-17-long-9eb2c1b.html

USA - http://www.amazon.com/Accutronics-9EB2C1B-Reverb-Tank/dp/B0043FN4A6

Germany - http://www.banzaimusic.com/Accutronics-9EB2C1B.html
monno
I am a sucker for all things spring reverb and was planning on adding the Doepfer module to my collection. It´s obviously taken a backseat to this project now and i am thoroughly looking forward to building it!
Karl_Joseph
Tombola wrote:

The Music Thing Spring Reverb is a flexible, easy-to-build voltage controlled 6HP DIY mono spring reverb module.
- Works with a variety of spring reverb tanks (including the A199 mini tank), or with the Accutronics BTDR-2 reverb ‘brick’ designed by Brian Neunaber
- Two cheap PCB panel designs - one with front panel sockets for the reverb tank
- Vactrol crossfade between dry and wet
- Tilt EQ on the reverb send to tune the voice of the reverb
- X-Fade input so the module can also be used as a standalone vactrol crossfader (crossfade demo)
- Attenuverter on the crossfade CV input

All the details are on the Music Thing Spring Reverb Project Page including:
- Big instruction & build manual that will answer all your questions (PDF)
- Schematic (PDF)
- Eagle and Gerber files, front panel specifications, a Mouser BOM etc

THONK will be offering PCBs and panels


Which tank did you use for this demo? It's the one I want! sounds amazing!!! we're not worthy we're not worthy we're not worthy we're not worthy we're not worthy we're not worthy we're not worthy we're not worthy we're not worthy we're not worthy we're not worthy
Tombola
Thanks Karl_Joseph, the demo video is a 9EB2C1B sitting on top of my low cost case - there's a little bit of audible hum in the demo that is reduced when the tank is mounted a bit further from the transformer.
paul_exp
Are there demos of the delay chip brick? And @thonk - will you be selling those?

Either way, very excited about this... SlayerBadger!
bartleby
paul_exp wrote:
Are there demos of the delay chip brick?

yeah, i was wondering about that, too.
Monobass
I actually just ordered one of the bricks to test.

I won't be stocking these initially either, again like the springs they are really easy to pick up from big web stores and ebay. I'd rather focus my time and money on the module for now. This could change with later runs.
Tombola
Here's a demo of the spring compared with the brick:

[s]http://soundcloud.com/musicthing/real-spring-reverb-vs-belton[/s]
clusterchord
i see one can order the reverb TYPE 9 with specified input and output impedance on accutronics site..

DIGIT #2 - INPUT IMPEDANCE
A = 10 Ohm
B = 190 Ohm
C = 240 Ohm
D = 310 Ohm
E = 800 Ohm
F = 1925 Ohm

DIGIT #3 - OUTPUT IMPEDANCE
A = 600 Ohm
B = 2575 Ohm
C = 12000 Ohm



could someone tell me what impedances should i select if i want to:

a) integrate into euro modular, and use with the Music Thing module ?

b) make a standalone studio device with neutrik XLRs and some electronic balancing de-balancing (5534 for example) ?



they also offer different specified decay times... i gather they are made different, not changeable by the user..


-----------------------------------------------------

by the way, has anyone of you spring reverb aficionados experimented with splitting the signal into freq ranges via crossover, feeding two or three spring reverbs... like the old Fairchild did (alledgedly) ?

seems it allows the high freq response to sound more naturally without being so disturbed with rumbling of the spring for lower freq - sorta what multiband compressor does for compression.,..



thanks

rgrds
tom
paul_exp
Thanks for the brick demo tom. It's very cool, and now I'm torn as to which to get... Both sound cool in their own way...
Tombola
paul_exp wrote:
Thanks for the brick demo tom. It's very cool, and now I'm torn as to which to get... Both sound cool in their own way...


You can make it switchable - build both parts of the circuit and attach a SPDT on/none/on switch to the jumper. If you did a rear-mounted spring, you could probably fit the switch in one of the holes on the 6-socket panel, use the other for a 100% wet or dry EQ output

Theres a little bit of space there:


ps: I've moved the logos and labels around a little for the published panels, and if you ask Seeed studio they'll put the serial number on the Bottom Silkscreen, not Top Silkscreen
Tombola
clusterchord wrote:
i see one can order the reverb TYPE 9 with specified input and output impedance on accutronics site..

DIGIT #2 - INPUT IMPEDANCE
A = 10 Ohm
B = 190 Ohm
C = 240 Ohm
D = 310 Ohm
E = 800 Ohm
F = 1925 Ohm

DIGIT #3 - OUTPUT IMPEDANCE
A = 600 Ohm
B = 2575 Ohm
C = 12000 Ohm



could someone tell me what impedances should i select if i want to:

a) integrate into euro modular, and use with the Music Thing module ?



A 9EB2C1B is 800 Ohm input (E) and 2575 Ohm output (B)


clusterchord wrote:


b) make a standalone studio device with neutrik XLRs and some electronic balancing de-balancing (5534 for example) ?



I don't know how you'd do that. You might look at the Zerotronics passive system: http://zerotronics.com/coolsprings/index.html - transformers at the start and end of the system to integrate with line-in / mic-out. SPENDY!



clusterchord wrote:


by the way, has anyone of you spring reverb aficionados experimented with splitting the signal into freq ranges via crossover, feeding two or three spring reverbs... like the old Fairchild did (alledgedly) ?

seems it allows the high freq response to sound more naturally without being so disturbed with rumbling of the spring for lower freq - sorta what multiband compressor does for compression.,..



The 'tilt' control on this module is cruder solution to the same problem - it's flat at 12 o'clock, at 5 o'clock it fairly smoothly boosts frequencies above 1khz and cuts below. At 7 o'clock it does the opposite, cutting above 1khz, boosting below.

The EQ only acts on the reverb send - has no effect on the dry output.
Nantonos
clusterchord wrote:

b) make a standalone studio device with neutrik XLRs and some electronic balancing de-balancing (5534 for example) ?


If you wanted to run balanced lines to and from the modular to a reverb, it would be better to have the reverb drive circuit after debalancing; and it would be better to have (at least some of) the recovery circuit close to the reverb too, to boost the very small signal and avoid hum pickup, before converting to balanced.

In which case, the input and output impedences would be isolated from the balancing/debalancing circuitry anyway.

Rather than hack something up with opamps, there are dedicated chips for the task, such as THAT 1646 line driver (datasheet) and THAT 1200 series line receivers (datasheet). These will give you a high common mode rejection, low noise and low distortion.
rosch
thanks for that cool project. just ordered my tank from banzai screaming goo yo
bartleby
Tombola wrote:
You can make it switchable - build both parts of the circuit and attach a SPDT on/none/on switch to the jumper.

very cool! thumbs up

i love the sound of my two a199 with chinese accutronics 8bb3c1b clones - but the cv crossfade makes this much cooler! looking forward to building two of them.
harolddonnelly
Thanks for this project, just one quick question, I apologize if it has been covered already.

Is the CV control input, for the control of Wet and Dry or the Reverb Amount?
Monobass
CV is for the the wet dry
harolddonnelly
Great thanks!
Stab Frenzy
Very keen to get two of these as soon as the kit is available. Or would doing a stereo version with dual gang pots be simple?
parasitk
Can this be tweaked to run in 15v systems?
jgb
Must have. Too many spare reverb tanks at home (4-5 I think). smile
BBlack
Hey, cool!

I'm in the market currently for a spring verb module, this might fit the bill... Been looking at CGS's kit, and of course the Neural Agonizer, but this is cool too. And I have a spare Accutronics tank laying around..

Hoping for 15V capability... going to search.
4130photo
Wanted to buy a A199, but i think i will wait till the kits for this are available, this sounds ace... just need to up my soldering skills a bit before confused help
Monobass
This is a really nice project to solder, really well laid out with plenty of room.
Karl_Joseph
I check this thread daily in anticipation.
Baszline
I'm looking forward to build the spring reverb module!! hyper

I'm wondering what kind of spring reverbs you can use for this project. Banzai offers a lot of them and can't really figure out which ones are suitable for this project (connections, etc)

I can't fit in the 17" reverb tank (Accutronics 9EB2C1B) and don't want to go for the digital one (BTDR-2).

Now I've found a 9.25" one which will fit my modular case nicely but am wondering if this one is ok to use. It seems to have the same specs as the 17" one, but maybe I'm not looking right. hmmm.....

http://www.banzaimusic.com/Accutronics-8EB2C1B.html
Monobass
8EB2C1B - It's the same impedance so I think it'll be just as good thumbs up
Monobass
Karl_Joseph wrote:
I check this thread daily in anticipation.


the box is filling!

Baszline
SlayerBadger!
rosch
SlayerBadger! tank is ready!
xahdrez
w00t
BBlack
Any word of +/-15v compatability?
oootini
i'm gonna take the plunge with this!

is there any merit to wiring 2 spring tanks up to this? is the input/output impedance calculation a simple matter of adding impedances? could a simple passive mixer (ie a pot) be used to dial in the final reverb sound?
Waz
Can I get on some kind of list for the 1st run of these? I'd like a front mount panel one!
parasitk
BBlack wrote:
Any word of +/-15v compatability?


w00t
diablojoy
for those that are looking for the BTDR-2 bricks
http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Detail?no=1211
Monobass
I might try and power on 15v this weekend, it shouldn't catch fire smile there might be some gain balancing issues.

I'll create a product page with a wishlist option next week. There should be two runs before xmas.
NorthernLightX
I'd want one spring reverb PCB, but I'd like to order it together with a complete Expanded Turing Machine PCB kit; any chance those PCB's will be in stock at the same time?
Monobass
They should be yeah, I need to re-jiggle my stock post Turing Machine sale.
paperCUT
Looks fantastic, I'm sold! Looks like you could also squeeze a small toggle switch above the main wet/dry knob to select between the brick and a tank.

You'd be crazy to build this and not add the brick since everything except a switch is on board. Great design smile
Monobass
Something like a 4hp expander with a panel mounted switch and feedback options would actually be a relatively straightforward thing I think.

New image of main module -

a100user
Monobass wrote:
I might try and power on 15v this weekend, it shouldn't catch fire smile there might be some gain balancing issues.

I'll create a product page with a wishlist option next week. There should be two runs before xmas.


Thanks Steve I'm really interested in the results so my Bug can be sprung smile
Karl_Joseph
Monobass wrote:
Karl_Joseph wrote:
I check this thread daily in anticipation.


the box is filling!



I want some ! ! !
a100user
Out of interest Steve, will you have kits ready for Brighton?

If the 15V test works out I'd like to get on this ASAP.

Thanks

David
Monobass
It's certainly not impossible smile I think the Aluminium panels might be a stretch for then but I'm guessing you won't need one for your bugbrand?
Nantonos
I'm curious about this comment in the documentation:
Quote:
Unfortunately, I had little luck with the 5532 in the critical spring recovery circuit, where the lower noise would be helpful.

what was wrong with it in that position?
a100user
Monobass wrote:
It's certainly not impossible smile I think the Aluminium panels might be a stretch for then but I'm guessing you won't need one for your bugbrand?


Very true grin
Tombola
"I'm curious about this comment in the documentation:
Unfortunately, I had little luck with the 5532 in the critical spring recovery circuit, where the lower noise would be helpful.

what was wrong with it in that position?"

From memory, it didn't work at all well, I think it needs the high impedance FET input stage on a TL07*
Nantonos
Tombola wrote:
emory, it didn't work at all well, I think it needs the high impedance FET input stage on a TL07*


Thanks. That makes sense; the 5532 datasheet gives an input impedance of 300k (typ) 30k(!!) min and seems to be optimised for situatuions where it is driven by very low output imedance sources, and drives low (600R) impedance loads. On the other hand, the 5532 has a noise of 5nV/√Hz at 1kHz, compared to 18nV/√Hz for TL072.

While the reverb tank has prety high output impedance (2k575 for the Type 9 "B"). So you are picking up a low level signal from a high impedance source.

Perhaps the OPA2227PA (input impedance 10M, noise 3nV/√Hz) would work well here? Its lower input impedance than 072 but higher than 5532, and lower noise than either.

I notice that the other half is used for the reverb drive, I don't know if that has particular requirements like high current output. Although, if 072 works there I guess there aren't any particular issues there.
Tombola
Nantonos wrote:
Tombola wrote:
emory, it didn't work at all well, I think it needs the high impedance FET input stage on a TL07*


Thanks. That makes sense; the 5532 datasheet gives an input impedance of 300k (typ) 30k(!!) min and seems to be optimised for situatuions where it is driven by very low output imedance sources, and drives low (600R) impedance loads. On the other hand, the 5532 has a noise of 5nV/√Hz at 1kHz, compared to 18nV/√Hz for TL072.

While the reverb tank has prety high output impedance (2k575 for the Type 9 "B"). So you are picking up a low level signal from a high impedance source.

Perhaps the OPA2227PA (input impedance 10M, noise 3nV/√Hz) would work well here? Its lower input impedance than 072 but higher than 5532, and lower noise than either.

I notice that the other half is used for the reverb drive, I don't know if that has particular requirements like high current output. Although, if 072 works there I guess there aren't any particular issues there.


I was tempted to build the spring section with single op amps to allow endless rolling, but decided it was probably a niche interest... I did experiment with a OPA551 drive chip, recommended by Roy Mallory, but in the end I couldn't hear a difference, and it's £4 vs 40p...
Nantonos
Tombola wrote:
Nantonos wrote:

Perhaps the OPA2227PA (input impedance 10M, noise 3nV/√Hz) would work well here? Its lower input impedance than 072 but higher than 5532, and lower noise than either.


I was tempted to build the spring section with single op amps to allow endless rolling, but decided it was probably a niche interest..


The OPA2227PA is a dual, with the identical pinout to the 072.

Tombola wrote:
I did experiment with a OPA551 drive chip, recommended by Roy Mallory, but in the end I couldn't hear a difference, and it's £4 vs 40p...


In the same circuit? You wouldn't, as that circuit takes no advantage of the high voltage (±30V) and high current (200mA) capabilities. Also the OPA551 has fairly modest noise specs (15nV/√Hz, very similar to the 072 18nV/√Hz).
jgb
Is it possible to change the impedance to accommodate other tanks than the recommended ones?
Tombola
jgb wrote:
Is it possible to change the impedance to accommodate other tanks than the recommended ones?


It may be - I don't have any to test

On the input side - as it says in the documentation, lower impedance may be hard to drive with a tl072, higher impedance should work ok, but you might need a 100k vs 10k trimmer.

On the output side, I didn't have any different tanks to test at all - you'd have to experiment with R4 and R6 - perhaps replace R6 with a 100k trimmer?

Please report back any findings!
jgb
Tombola wrote:
jgb wrote:
Is it possible to change the impedance to accommodate other tanks than the recommended ones?


It may be - I don't have any to test

On the input side - as it says in the documentation, lower impedance may be hard to drive with a tl072, higher impedance should work ok, but you might need a 100k vs 10k trimmer.

On the output side, I didn't have any different tanks to test at all - you'd have to experiment with R4 and R6 - perhaps replace R6 with a 100k trimmer?

Please report back any findings!


If a TL072 cannot drive the tank, could it be replaced with another pin equivalent op amp? I assume there are others that can deliver more juice for the tank. smile https://www.google.de/search?q=tl072+equivalent gives quite a few suggestions.

Will hopefully be able to try this later and report on the results!
mush
I've used this circuit for AB tanks with great success. I've never managed to get Tom's to work with 8 ohm or 10 ohm tanks.


http://sound.westhost.com/articles/reverb.htm
Tombola
@mush - that seems right, I tried that circuit with 150/800 ohm tanks and it was OK, but no better than the single TL07* For lower impedance the extra drive from the bootstrap transistors must be essential

This module design is very modular - you could replace the rear PCB with a little drive/recover circuit (& power inlet) built on perfboard, and use the front PCB for the x-fade/eq / knobs etc. There is a 5 pin connection between the front & rear boards that gives +12v, -12v, GND, send and return.
craigwilliamsmusic
i'm definatly pumped for this project.

It's motherfucking bacon yo
Monobass
I've started a wishlist for the Spring Reverb kit. Progress is very good smile

http://www.thonk.co.uk/shop/music-thing-modular-spring-reverb-wishlist  /

Monobass
prices? not yet.

release date? November.
sync24
Yes!!!
Isaiah
Monobass
Joined the wishlist thumbs up

Could you post the co-ordinates of the mounting holes relative to the holes for the pot shafts please?
I've designed my own panel and would like to mount the PCB-sandwich to the panel with stand-offs.
heapish
parasitk
Monobass wrote:
prices? not yet.

release date? November.


*cough* 15v? w00t
jasonh23
applause w00t
Monobass
Isaiah wrote:
Monobass
Joined the wishlist thumbs up

Could you post the co-ordinates of the mounting holes relative to the holes for the pot shafts please?
I've designed my own panel and would like to mount the PCB-sandwich to the panel with stand-offs.


Best way is from the eagle board layout file or download a Gerber viewer

http://musicthing.co.uk/modular/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/SpringRever b_v2_1.zip

Will do more documentation later.

15v testing hasn't managed to make it near the top of my infinite to-do list yet smile
vurma
Finally a good reason to go for a stereo reverb setup! ^^
knob_alchemist
Tombola wrote:
Here's a demo of the spring compared with the brick:

[s]http://soundcloud.com/musicthing/real-spring-reverb-vs-belton[/s]


Real spring sound more interesting...if I put the module in a lower row of a doepfer lowcost case can I put the spring behind the module?
oootini
is there an alu panel planned for this?
Monobass
oootini wrote:
is there an alu panel planned for this?


Yes, its in production but they won't be ready until a week or two after the first run goes on sale. I have plenty of the PCB panels which are very good value, sturdy and look great. I've planned this kit in a way where there shouldn't be any extended periods of it going out of stock.

One thing to note, on the panel with the tank connection on the front, the PCB front panel and the aluminium front panel use different types of phono connectors.
onlyHzwhenI...
paperCUT wrote:
Looks fantastic, I'm sold! Looks like you could also squeeze a small toggle switch above the main wet/dry knob to select between the brick and a tank.

You'd be crazy to build this and not add the brick since everything except a switch is on board. Great design smile

Monobass wrote:

Something like a 4hp expander with a panel mounted switch and feedback options would actually be a relatively straightforward thing I think.

Any chance of a single panel solution? I'd guess it would make sense to have it as an add on, so folks could chose front or rear RCAs, not have to have so many models on stock.
But it does seem like a daughter-board with buffers for dedicated wet/ dry outs, the spring/ brick switch, and the feedback controls behind a single panel would be pretty slick. Could hide the part of the brick that overhangs behind the wider panel.

I'm in either way, just thinking out loud.

-JT

EDIT: Should have said that I think it's great that there are panels coming. Certainly I will want whatever is made, was just sorta wishing for the added functions. Didn't mean to piss on what seems like a great product idea, and am sorry if it had that effect.
Tombola
onlyHzwhenI... wrote:
Any chance of a single panel solution?


If I was hacking it, I'd suggest:

Use the 6hp panel, mount the spring out the back, use the two extra holes at the bottom:

1) switch for spring/tank
2) Unbuffered output for 100% wet, which will *probably* be OK, and would make feedback patching easier.
- If it's unbufferedness proves a problem, you could do a really messy hack with a TL071 and a few wires stealing power from somewhere from the board.
patilon
i thought i read somewhere that the module already has a 100% wet output?

to be honest.. i didn´t get how you get into standalone crossfading mode - as seen in the video.. as how i understood it, the X-Fade jack would work as input for a second audio-signal, so no reverb at all then OR as 100% wet output depending if you connect an audio signal to this jack or a cable which from there would be patched into something like a mixer (no idea if or how this double-function could work.. it´s just how i understood it).

apart from that... not sure for which version to decide (RCA in front or not) i´m definitaly planing to sell my a-199 for this one. also i really liked the bricks´ reverb sound. great addition to the normal spring reverb sound!
Tombola
patilon wrote:
to be honest.. i didn´t get how you get into standalone crossfading mode - as seen in the video.. as how i understood it, the X-Fade jack would work as input for a second audio-signal, so no reverb at all then OR as 100% wet output depending if you connect an audio signal to this jack or a cable which from there would be patched into something like a mixer (no idea if or how this double-function could work.. it´s just how i understood it).


Originally, I built the top-left socket as a 100% wet output - you may have seen a prototype shot. But I was playing with the vactrol x-fade and realised it would be a useful thing to have in my system, so I replaced the 100% wet OUTPUT with a x-fade INPUT.

When the x-fade input is used, you can't hear reverb at all.

Why did I do this? It's quite easy to set the blend output to 100% wet and externally patch feedback loops etc - so the 100% wet output is slightly redundant. However, there is be no way to externally patch into the x-fade function without the x-fade input, so it is less redundant.

Here's the block diagram:

patilon
thanks for explaining!

sounds like a good decision! thumbs up
a100user
Any news on if this module will run at 15V?

I'm thinking specifically with the brick version but either way.

thanks
Tombola
a100user wrote:
Any news on if this module will run at 15V?

I'm thinking specifically with the brick version but either way.

thanks


Brick version has a 5v regulator to power the brick itself, so that will be fine. Everything else is standard op amps which will run at either level, and the vactrol x-fade - the drive part of which is derived from the Verbos circuit here, designed for 15v. You might want to increase the LED protection resistor - R11 - from 2.1k to 4.7k.

BUT - I haven't tested it!
knob_alchemist
Real spring sound more interesting...if I put the module in a lower row of a doepfer lowcost case can I put the spring behind the module, maybe fixed to the internal floor of the case with a double-sided tape?
It's there enough space? and is that a good solution?
Monobass
I reckon there will be space depth wise, but be prepared for trial and error in finding a spot where its not noisy.

I'd advise having the tank external for sound quality, it really depends on the specific case.
a100user
Tombola wrote:
a100user wrote:
Any news on if this module will run at 15V?

I'm thinking specifically with the brick version but either way.

thanks


Brick version has a 5v regulator to power the brick itself, so that will be fine. Everything else is standard op amps which will run at either level, and the vactrol x-fade - the drive part of which is derived from the Verbos circuit here, designed for 15v. You might want to increase the LED protection resistor - R11 - from 2.1k to 4.7k.

BUT - I haven't tested it!



Many thanks that's close enough for me to push ahead. Looking forward to trying it out.
fluxmonkey
Monobass wrote:
I'd advise having the tank external for sound quality, it really depends on the specific case.


i think this might be particularly true for switching power supplies. switchers have come a long way in terms of getting cleaner, but those spring pickups are pretty sensitive. just a guess, will be interesting to see what folks' experiences are.
Tombola
knob_alchemist wrote:
Real spring sound more interesting...if I put the module in a lower row of a doepfer lowcost case can I put the spring behind the module, maybe fixed to the internal floor of the case with a double-sided tape?
It's there enough space? and is that a good solution?


I have a Doepfer Low Cost case, and ideally I wouldn't put it on the bottom row - that's right next to the transformer, and it might create a lot of hum.

In my demo video, the long spring is sitting on top of the 9U low cost case - you can hear there is still a bit of hum, but it's not to bad - ALTHOUGH, it then shakes when you're patching, which is sort of cool, sort of annoying.

Ideally; drill a hole in the back of your case, run a cable out, mount the spring on a wall or perhaps on the floor under your desk, somewhere it will be stable. It's a bit of a pain to do, but really good once it's done and you've forgotten about it.

As i said in the docs, moving the tank through 90 degrees (on any axis) can help hum noise a lot
onlyHzwhenI...
Tombola wrote:
onlyHzwhenI... wrote:
Any chance of a single panel solution?


If I was hacking it, I'd suggest:

Use the 6hp panel, mount the spring out the back, use the two extra holes at the bottom:

1) switch for spring/tank
2) Unbuffered output for 100% wet, which will *probably* be OK, and would make feedback patching easier.
- If it's unbufferedness proves a problem, you could do a really messy hack with a TL071 and a few wires stealing power from somewhere from the board.
That's what I wanted to hear! Somehow when I looked at the pics of the panel I missed that the front phono jack option wasn't board mounted, that there'd be room for other functions on the front panel.

I'll still have to wrap my head around the simplest, smallest feedbacker, but that's not on you. I need to learn to patch that sort of stuff anyway. seriously, i just don't get it Mind, I wouldn't turn down suggestions if anybody knows a module/ thread that can make such patches easy; I'd love to have a patch as easy as a mixer's auxes without tying up a Mackie. CVable, of course.

Either way this verb looks the business, and sounds fantastic. applause I like the idea of being able to use the spring when practical, i.e. when not too noisy, when when there's room to carry it (if external), etc.; and still have the digital version as a backup, a 'known good', skiff friendly option. And damn (known) good at that!

Thanks for this project Tombola and Monobass!

-JT
Tombola
Here's a quick feedback patch I did a while back when the circuit was on breadboard. From memory...

Bandpass output from A Sys AS110 multimode filter -> Spring input
Spring output (at 100% wet) -> AS110 input & Mult -> final mixer input
Another sound source -> AS110 input 2

= madness:

[s]http://soundcloud.com/musicthing/spring-feedback[/s]
onlyHzwhenI...
Tombola wrote:
Here's a quick feedback patch I did a while back when the circuit was on breadboard. From memory...

Bandpass output from A Sys AS110 multimode filter -> Spring input
Spring output (at 100% wet) -> AS110 input & Mult -> final mixer input
Another sound source -> AS110 input 2

= madness:

[s]http://soundcloud.com/musicthing/spring-feedback[/s]
Thanks, that sounds great, looks super easy.

Also listened to Spring Reverb vs Echophon. My work often requires me to drive several hours late at night after a 14-16 hr day, dead tired, and ears kinda blown out from exposure to loud noises. Somehow this track sounds almost exactly like what I hear in my head at such moments! zombie
And the sick thing is, now I'm wondering if maybe I'll need several Music Thing verbs -- not just for stereo options, but for series apps!
What a sales pitch!

~JT
Karl_Joseph
Monobass wrote:
oootini wrote:
is there an alu panel planned for this?


Yes, its in production but they won't be ready until a week or two after the first run goes on sale. I have plenty of the PCB panels which are very good value, sturdy and look great. I've planned this kit in a way where there shouldn't be any extended periods of it going out of stock.

One thing to note, on the panel with the tank connection on the front, the PCB front panel and the aluminium front panel use different types of phono connectors.


I'm confused about this. What does that mean for me? Will this be addressed in the build docs?

Also, I want PCB and Aluminum Panel with front panel RCA connectors, will they be available at the same time? Can I order the first run and wait until the panels come in before you ship? I can wait… barely.
Tombola
"What does that mean for me? Will this be addressed in the build docs?"

Yes, it is detailed in the PDFs about the panels.

Normal panel mount phono sockets connect their ground pin to the panel they're mounted on (just as most 3.5mm and quarter inch sockets do)

However, in this design the ground being sent to the spring should be isolated from the one coming back from the spring. So, PCB material is fine - the pcb is designed so there is no connection.

BUT, if you used normal sockets on an aluminium panel, there would be a short, so you need isolated sockets, which have a plastic insulating ring so they don't connect with the panel. (You can see this kind of socket in the double tank in a Hammond enclosure in the main build doc)
EMwhite
May or may not be related but when I built Tom's original design (the rough schematic that he posted here a year ago) I was getting very poor response and troubleshooting was driving me nuts.

I'm not sure how closely this new design resembles the original but the problem I had was that the common ground on the send/rec RCA jacks was to blame.

As soon as I isolated them (discreet sleeve connections), the issues went away and everything worked swimmingly.
BBlack
I'm on 15v and will likely be buying this regardless, but an official test at 15v would allow some peace of mind!

Much appreciated if possible!
Tombola
EMwhite wrote:
May or may not be related but when I built Tom's original design (the rough schematic that he posted here a year ago) I was getting very poor response and troubleshooting was driving me nuts.

I'm not sure how closely this new design resembles the original but the problem I had was that the common ground on the send/rec RCA jacks was to blame.

As soon as I isolated them (discreet sleeve connections), the issues went away and everything worked swimmingly.


Yep, this is a similar circuit, and common ground definitely won't work here.

This picture explains - left hand is not isolated, should only be used on non-conductive panel for this circuit. Right hand is isolated, can be used on alu panel.

Monobass
BBlack wrote:
I'm on 15v and will likely be buying this regardless, but an official test at 15v would allow some peace of mind!

Much appreciated if possible!


To date I have only completely assembled one kit.... and that went to a native 15v wiggler who will be performing testing thumbs up
Karl_Joseph
Tombola wrote:
"What does that mean for me? Will this be addressed in the build docs?"

Yes, it is detailed in the PDFs about the panels.

Normal panel mount phono sockets connect their ground pin to the panel they're mounted on (just as most 3.5mm and quarter inch sockets do)

However, in this design the ground being sent to the spring should be isolated from the one coming back from the spring. So, PCB material is fine - the pcb is designed so there is no connection.

BUT, if you used normal sockets on an aluminium panel, there would be a short, so you need isolated sockets, which have a plastic insulating ring so they don't connect with the panel. (You can see this kind of socket in the double tank in a Hammond enclosure in the main build doc)


Will the isolated jacks be included with the front panel RCA connection kit?
Monobass
Karl_Joseph wrote:
Will the isolated jacks be included with the front panel RCA connection kit?


Yes both with the full kit that requires them and also available as an option with the separate 'front loading' alu panel.
BBlack
Monobass wrote:
BBlack wrote:
I'm on 15v and will likely be buying this regardless, but an official test at 15v would allow some peace of mind!

Much appreciated if possible!


To date I have only completely assembled one kit.... and that went to a native 15v wiggler who will be performing testing thumbs up


w00t thumbs up
horstronic
Quote:
Here's a quick feedback patch I did a while back when the circuit was on breadboard. From memory...

Bandpass output from A Sys AS110 multimode filter -> Spring input
Spring output (at 100% wet) -> AS110 input & Mult -> final mixer input
Another sound source -> AS110 input 2

= madness:

[s]http://soundcloud.com/musicthing/spring-feedback[/s]


Dope!!!
Plop
Got a couple of Silonex vactrols left from an other project and was wondering what to do with them. But now I foresee some spring reverb fun in the near future for them! nanners
Monobass
themanthatwasused
thats...
SlayerBadger!
mckenic
Sorry for the stupid question - Im sure the info is there somewhere so I apologize...

If I was going for the brick (or wanted the RCA connectors coming out the back of the module) - is there a panel without the front mounted holes for RCA?

Thanks - VERY excited about this!
thumbs up
Tombola
mckenic wrote:
Sorry for the stupid question - Im sure the info is there somewhere so I apologize...

If I was going for the brick (or wanted the RCA connectors coming out the back of the module) - is there a panel without the front mounted holes for RCA?

Thanks - VERY excited about this!
thumbs up


Yes, there is!
Monobass
I'll try and get photos of that option up this week too. Have to make one first wink

The module pictured is exactly what will ship in the Thonk kits, built a proto yesterday and it's working great.

I'm so much more into the brick sound than I thought I would be! It's pretty edgy and psychedelic. A really nice option compared to the diffuse and lush Spring.
mckenic
Brilliant! Many thanks sir!
Monobass
[s]http://soundcloud.com/thonksynth/music-thing-modular-spring[/s]
mckenic
Crap! Now Imna need two!
Althiugh if I HAD to pick one it would be the brick hihi
Waz
I'm not sure if this was answered, but could I switch between the 2 options (rear accutronics and front send/ return) by installing a toggle?
Monobass
yup, it's easy to hook up a switch and bring it out somewhere so you can have either/or.
nihilist
when will these be available?
Monobass
looking like next week
Karl_Joseph
Monobass wrote:
looking like next week


Payday is next week! I might be "down for 2" of these depending on price.
sync24
looking like i need another case...
Rick Burnett
Whoa! This looks great. I too would want to have a switch to do both options and run the rca internal. This is exactly what I've been looking for.
oootini
is the white solder mask style faceplate the final design for the first thonk edition? or is that prototype?
Monobass
oootini wrote:
is the white solder mask style faceplate the final design for the first thonk edition? or is that prototype?


For the imminent run yes, aluminum panels are also in production.

I should stress that the Panel is made from PCB material but does not form part of the circuit, so think Bugbrand rather than Blue Lantern.
Spip
Any idea for pricing ?

And will the PCBs be available right now or is it kit only ?
heapish
Monobass wrote:
yup, it's easy to hook up a switch and bring it out somewhere so you can have either/or.


Ace. Think I'm gunna do this.
Monobass
* full kits
* pcbs
* panels

all available individually

I'll let the kit run for a couple of days first and then the seperate PCBS + Panels follow a couple of days later, otherwise I just get overwhelmed trying to ship everything at once!

I know no one ever believes me, but I don't work out the prices until an hour before I put them on sale! My gut reaction from my total spend is 'very affordable'. Turing Machine owners aren't going to be shocked by the price, put it that way.
woodster
I believe lol

It will be hard to choose between the brick or tank.
In for two hihi
Monobass
Preliminary tests suggest there is no difference in operation between 12v and 15v thumbs up
Monobass
ok full thumbs up on 15v thumbs up
Regulator runs warmer as expected, but not hot and well within spec.
horstronic
Monobass wrote:
looking like next week


Yay! Can't wait!
Monobass
Update on the alu panels, as previously mentioned they won't be back from the factory in time for this first run going on sale this week.

The first one should be on sale this year though, which is the aluminium panel for use with either the digital brick only OR the spring tank connections on the back.

Need to trial a few different isolated phono sockets for the alu panel with spring tank connection on the front.
horstronic
Monobass wrote:
Update on the alu panels, a previously mentioned they won't be back from the factory in time for this first run going on sale this week.


Does that mean that you are selling kits without panels first?
Monobass
no, read back through the thread, it's the panels shown in this image which are the lower cost white PCB versions. Similar prices to the Turing Machine Acrylic panels but much higher quality & sturdy, and pots are bolted to it.

They look really good, I think they're of comparable functional quality to Aluminium panels personally, a much cleaner look and actually easier to deal with the technical requirements to do with grounding on the spring tank send and return (they can't share a ground).

horstronic
Sorry, didn't see that.
Peake
Davies 1600 and 1900 knobs (Buchla and Serge) SlayerBadger!
Monobass
best of both worlds hihi
Monobass
ok.. price for the full kit - 53 GBP (approx 64 EUR / 72 USD)

(GBP + EUR prices include VAT)

That includes everything to use brick and/or spring tank, with either front panel (phonos on front or back) but doesn't include the digital brick or spring tank.
horstronic
applause
Monobass
EDITED NOVEMBER 2017

You want either an Accutronics 9EB2C1B Reverb Tank

OR

Belton BTDR-2H Digital Reverb Brick

Two places I can personally vouch for in the uk

Digital Brick (UK)

Real Spring Tank (UK)


In Germany

Real Spring Tank (DE - Banzai normally pretty quick)

In USA

Real Spring Tank (USA - I have not used this supplier personally)

Digital Brick (USA - Smallbear)
Tombola
I just noticed that you coordinated the jumper colour with the PCB.

applause applause applause applause
Monobass
heheh. yes. Although so anyone doesn't get dissapointed, the 'first pressings' actually come with a super limited Ed. BLACK jumper hihi

So I think the first batch will go for sale on Thursday, Friday latest.
Monobass
PCBs and Panel sets will go for sale the start of next week once I've broken the back of the kit orders.
en.
can't wait to order mine!
any comparison between 9EB2C1B and 8EB2C1B somewhere?
Jonachi
Just got two long bricks from the UK supplier! Can't wait to order these kits. Oyeah I need 2 kits (I suppose!).

-J
Rigo
Mentioned in other threads:

http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/catalog.php?category_id=32&mySID=LNo6f5qy rEPUUPQG1J6sG0

Never got to the point of ordering a bigger tank for the A-199, will have to do some ordering now anyway 8_)
Monobass
It's worth remembering that the tank for the Doepfer sounds *great* with the Music Thing Modular Spring Reverb module.

Whether you like the lo-fi sound of the Doepfer or not, what I've found in a side by side comparison is that the lo-fi nature comes from the Doepfer module NOT the Doepfer tank.

Also I found the difference in sound between the smaller Doepfer tank and the longer 17" version that is often recommended as an upgrade is pretty subtle... and again it's the module that makes 90% of the difference in sound. The only exception really being the decay time, but contrary to popular belief that is not always directly proportional to the length of the tank..
vurma
Please keep us updated on the exact time of release. I expect these kits to vaporize pretty quickly and I want in.
Monobass
I'm pretty sure it's going to be Thursday morning.
Monobass
SmallBear also have the Brick

http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Detail?no=1211
Monobass
Tombola
Monobass wrote:

Also I found the difference in sound... is pretty subtle...


Second this - I ended up writing a whole bit in the manual about sound:

Using the module, and how to get the best possible sound


I’m very happy with how this circuit sounds, particularly in this demo: But it’s not always easy to coax such smooth tones from a spring reverb.

Don’t assume there is a fault with your module if you don’t immediately get this kind of sound - I made that mistake a few times on breadboard.

Here’s what I’ve learned about getting a good, rich, warm, clean sound:

What you get out depends on what you put in. By far the biggest factor in the tone of the reverb is - obviously - the tone being fed into it. Software reverbs can put the same smooth mushy sound over whatever your run into them. This isn’t like that at all. Remember that it’s a physical system moving about, driven by magnets and electricity and springs.

I’ve found that smooth, clean, FM-ed sinewaves work very well with the springs. On a ‘scope, the output looks similar to the input, but more complicated. On the other hand, square waves try to bash the springs about. There’s no way that a magnet can move a spring in anything like a square wave, so the sound coming out will sound little like a square wave. On a ‘scope, it’s more like a filter or waveshaper.

Small changes in the input sound can be amplified and enhanced by the reverb.

Choice of spring tank is not absolutely critical. Big long six spring tanks will sound bigger than small tanks, but I’ve found that - at least with my limited selection - it is less important than the other factors in this list. I got pretty good reverb from the tiny plastic-boxed new reverb that Belton are developing. You can use EQ to compensate for the choice of tank to some extent.

Hum is caused (and can often be cured) by the exact position of the tank. A reverb tank is not unlike a big, highly amplified single-coil guitar pickup. It will pick up 50/60hz mains hum, particularly from transformers but probably also from dimmer switches or fluorescent tubes. That hum can often be stopped completely by moving the tank away from the source or - often more practically - by just changing the position of the tank. Try shifting it through 90 degrees - on whichever axis is practical - and often the hum will drop. If you want to mount your tank inside a case, experiment with the exact position to find the quietest spot before fixing anything.

Noise (hiss, white noise, not hum) is caused by the high-gain op amp in the recovery section. I’ve tried to reduce it as far as possible by using low-impedance resistors. I also tried two lower-gain op amps in series, which seriously increased the noise. It may be that using other dual op-amps could reduce this noise even further. Or just think of it as tape hiss, adding mojo.

Spring reverb is chaotic and hard to predict. Spring reverb is a strange, gnarly, physical effect. When I tried to calibrate and measure this circuit, I’d find that a sine wave at, for example, 400hz, might barely excite the springs at all, while a sine at 405hz would bust them into fuzzy overdrive. Change a component, and that response changes completely.
nihilist
two questions,

When using accu brick, mounted in rear,
what is the benefit of the option B, with front sockets?

Also,
when are these available?
Monobass
Thursday.

If you want brick only then select the panel with rear sockets, you wont need them although they're still included in the kit.
Rick Burnett
Ordered both brick and tank smile Can't wait to play with this.
Tombola
nihilist wrote:
When using accu brick, mounted in rear,
what is the benefit of the option B, with front sockets?


You wouldn't want the phono sockets, but you could - if you like busy panels with incorrect labels - put in two 3.5mm sockets with the EQ Out and 100% Wet out signals. These are unbuffered, so plugging stuff into them could change the way the rest of the module sounds, but it should work OK.
Stinktier86
[dupe]
Stinktier86
Monobass wrote:
ok.. price for the full kit - 53 GBP (approx 64 EUR / 72 USD)

(GBP + EUR prices include VAT)

That includes everything to use brick and/or spring tank, with either front panel (phonos on front or back) but doesn't include the digital brick or spring tank.


-Does this include vactrols, too?


Already got an a-199 (plus its springs), still figuring out whether i should order one or two kits thurs/fri... w00t

The manual describes 'hacking' the tl072 buffers in order to make the extra outs buffered. Sorry, this will be my first build since i did BYOC pedals/various simple vactrol mods. Someone up for explaining to a newbie?
Tombola
Stinktier86 wrote:

The manual describes 'hacking' the tl072 buffers in order to make the extra outs buffered.


If you build the spring but not the brick, there is a space for a TL072 in the brick part of the circuit board. I'd put a socket there, then take a TL072 and fold up (ie horizontal) pins 1,2,3,5,6,7, so only the power pins (4 and 8) stick down into the socket. Place it in the socket to hold steady.

Then, you can create super-simple buffers. Fold & solder pins 1 and 2 together, then do the same for 6 and 7.

Run a signal into 3 (or 5) and it will come out of 1/2 (or 6/7) buffered. You'll have a bunch of ugly wires over the back of your board, so it will look like one of my prototypes.

The pinout is here: http://www.ece.usu.edu/ece_store/spec/tl072.pdf

And you're creating two unity gain op amp buffers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Op-Amp_Unity-Gain_Buffer.svg
Stinktier86
Thanks - made things much more clear!


Additionally, i'm going to vactrolize that tilt potentiometer. Imagine CVed movement on the tilt while using feedback. It's a killer. I've done it with a-199 but i'm imagining the results will be more pleasing since it is a lo/hi tilt rather than the usual high freq roloff.
Monobass
Stinktier86 wrote:
Monobass wrote:
ok.. price for the full kit - 53 GBP (approx 64 EUR / 72 USD)

(GBP + EUR prices include VAT)

That includes everything to use brick and/or spring tank, with either front panel (phonos on front or back) but doesn't include the digital brick or spring tank.


-Does this include vactrols, too?


yep everything other than the digital brick or spring tank, right down to the rack screws and power cable.

Oh and another little improvement to Thonk kits, the resistors now have the number written on the Bag, R1, R2 etc.

vurma
Stinktier86 wrote:
Thanks - made things much more clear!


Additionally, i'm going to vactrolize that tilt potentiometer. Imagine CVed movement on the tilt while using feedback. It's a killer. I've done it with a-199 but i'm imagining the results will be more pleasing since it is a lo/hi tilt rather than the usual high freq roloff.


Hey thats not a bad idea actually. I will have spare vacs since they are included in the kit.
cane creek
I'm going for brick but not sure which decay time

Medium 2.5s or Long 2.85s ? seriously, i just don't get it
Monobass
The one in this demo is the Medium, I've not tried the long.

[s]http://soundcloud.com/thonksynth/music-thing-modular-spring[/s]
MindSnared
Very much enjoy the sound of this, hope to be able to get a kit soon.
cane creek
Monobass wrote:
The one in this demo is the Medium, I've not tried the long.


Thanks for speedy reply, just ordered a Medium thumbs up
Stinktier86
vurma wrote:
Stinktier86 wrote:
Thanks - made things much more clear!


Additionally, i'm going to vactrolize that tilt potentiometer. Imagine CVed movement on the tilt while using feedback. It's a killer. I've done it with a-199 but i'm imagining the results will be more pleasing since it is a lo/hi tilt rather than the usual high freq roloff.


Hey thats not a bad idea actually. I will have spare vacs since they are included in the kit.


Poor man's resonator. thumbs up I'm using the prebuilt A-101-9 Universal vactrol module for further control, but it's no necessity. Don't forget to try it with muted springs (ie. cotton pads or such). Can't provide audio examples as it is (currently in the process of moving), sorry for that.
Tombola
Re: vactrol on the tilt EQ - you'd have to calibrate it just right, because the flat setting is right in the middle - ie 25k if it's a 50k pot - otherwise you'll get permanent tilt - really tinny or really bassy. Not sure how you'd do that.
diablojoy
hey monobass
dont know if this has been asked before but will you be offering just PCB or PCB and panels options in your shop at any stage ?
woodster
I think the answer will be yes
Stinktier86
Tombola wrote:
Re: vactrol on the tilt EQ - you'd have to calibrate it just right, because the flat setting is right in the middle - ie 25k if it's a 50k pot - otherwise you'll get permanent tilt - really tinny or really bassy. Not sure how you'd do that.


I've found the universal vactrol module versatile for this reason. Since each vactrol channel has its own pair of manual/offset and attenuverter potentiometers already, dialling in the correct dark/light resistance is easier than if i had to hardwire the desired extra resistance to a vactrol for each pot i wanted to vactrolize. At the cost of 8hp per four vactrols, but I find it worth it.
sduck
Here's my plan:



Rockin' Banana! Rockin' Banana! Rockin' Banana!
Monobass
diablojoy wrote:
hey monobass
dont know if this has been asked before but will you be offering just PCB or PCB and panels options in your shop at any stage ?


Yep next week thumbs up
Dirty_Bill
sduck wrote:
Here's my plan:


Rockin' Banana! Rockin' Banana! Rockin' Banana!


Yep, gotta be Stereo!
EMwhite
My plan - integrated with SEMs; already got the panel back... just... need... boards...

daluxer
analog vs digital reverb tank.. i can barely hear a difference.. any tips/recommendations on which to choose?
Tombola
daluxer wrote:
analog vs digital reverb tank.. i can barely hear a difference.. any tips/recommendations on which to choose?


I think analogue sounds a lot better, but is physically a lot more fiddly - placing the tank, cables etc. If you like the brick, it's super easy and skiff friendly.
Stinktier86
Ordered two for stereo goodness. thumbs up

Quote:

analog vs digital reverb tank.. i can barely hear a difference.. any tips/recommendations on which to choose?


Squares and other waves are not easily reproduced through media like springs, strings, plates etc. You will get a diffuse, overtone rich reverb instead, whereas digital reverbs make near perfect copies of the sound, thus the reverbtail will be more close sounding to the original source. Both has its benefits but depending on material, there really is a difference between mechanical and digital reverbs.

Springs also have a certain inert response to sudden sounds which result in a swelling, sometime resonant sweeping sound. Often subtle, at other times more articulate. Which is a beautiful effect to exploit.

Edit: Digital may also be better for live situations, where you want your reverb under control.
daluxer
Of course there is a difference, i just wasnt hearing it in the demo.

But i get your point. Thanks for the replies.., not sure what to go for..since its my first (synth) project i might be going for the digital, tho i like analog exploits grin
hmmm.....
mckenic
Thank you Thonk & MusicThing!!!

love
Stinktier86
Here's a pros/cons list, the way i view it:

Digital block:
+Consistent behaviour independent of placement and environment;
+therefore good for mobile rigs
+Can take any signal and put out a good, clean reverb, even with 'unnatural' harmonic content.
-no means of manual manipulation
-sound is non-reactive to dynamic and harmonic changes, which gives a somewhat 'static' feel
-not so many options; just different decay times in different blocks.

Spring tank:
+highly reactive, warm, inert sound.
+exploiting resonance is more rewarding
-works best on material with even or low harmonic content, unless you like the sound of fuzzy mud.
+switching tanks for longer/shorter decay and/or varied harmonic characteristics is as easy as changing socks. Albeit a tad more expensive.
-prone to picking up noise/hum/hiss, unless placement is right.
-works bad with switching regulators for the same reason. hum, hiss...
-potentially works bad on small live stages with strong magnetic fields.
-prone to extreme resonance at some notes but not on others. More often a con than a pro.

Some things in these lists may vary in weight depending on production/playing style.
Monobass
daluxer wrote:
Of course there is a difference, i just wasnt hearing it in the demo.


I think you need to rethink your listening environment or monitoring chain, they sound remarkably different to me! (That's not a qualitative judgment even)

[s]http://soundcloud.com/thonksynth/music-thing-modular-spring[/s]
Tombola
Another version of the same experiement; starts with real spring:

[s]http://soundcloud.com/musicthing/real-spring-reverb-vs-belton[/s]
337is
hyper I just ordered a panel A kit option from Thonk as well as an Accutronics 9EB2C1B Reverb Tank and a Belton BTDR-2H-S Digital Reverb Module. Now I need to read through this thread to learn how I can do this upgrade mentioned in the manual:
Quote:
"It is possible to build both spring and brick circuits, then attach a simple SPDT switch to the jumper to switch between the two reverb types."


So, so, so excited. This will be my first proper Eurorack DIY building experience. I've done a few non-module practice kits with my wife to get our soldering skills into shape. Three successful builds so far, hopefully this will make a fourth.

It's peanut butter jelly time!

Edit: Maths
Monobass
Thanks! I think this kit will be a very good beginner soldering experience, it's really nicely laid out, only a tiny bit of wiring.

Easier than a Turing Machine to build I reckon and plenty of people built that successfully as their first ever kit.
sduck
337is wrote:
Now I need to read through this thread to learn how I can do this upgrade mentioned in the manual:
Quote:
"It is possible to build both spring and brick circuits, then attach a simple SPDT switch to the jumper to switch between the two reverb types."


It's easy! Just build up both sections of the rear board. Wire the switch so that the center lug is attached to the center connector on the jumper connector, and the two outer connections to their respective outer lugs. Then all you have to do is make sure you have both reverb options connected, and it'll work!
BBlack
Can't wait to order!

Not seeing PCBs by themselves on Thonk at the moment.. Is there anyone in particular that should be contacted regarding naked boards?
Monobass
I'll have loose boards for sale next week thumbs up
Rigo
Ordered a kit, and ordered some things at Banzai. Will make an extra panel with a switch for digital/spring reverb, and it will also get connectors for the A-199 reverb. Hope I didn't mess up my order hihi
337is
Quote:
It's easy! Just build up both sections of the rear board. Wire the switch so that the center lug is attached to the center connector on the jumper connector, and the two outer connections to their respective outer lugs. Then all you have to do is make sure you have both reverb options connected, and it'll work!


That doesn't sound too difficult at all ... I'll no need to figure out which switch I can easily pick up Stateside (I've ordered from Mouser before) and how to possibly add the switch to the front panel.

I'm also interested in possibly attempting the other mods mentioned in the manual ... breaking out the 100% wet and dry portions of the signal. Anyone have a game plan for doing that with specific Mouser parts?

Thanks for the encouragement sduck!
thumbs up [/quote]
337is
Quote:
Thanks! I think this kit will be a very good beginner soldering experience, it's really nicely laid out, only a tiny bit of wiring.

Easier than a Turing Machine to build I reckon and plenty of people built that successfully as their first ever kit.


That is exciting news and helps a lot with my DIY intimidation factor. Thank you. thumbs up
Monobass
So I'm pretty sure I will do a 4hp expander that will have the analog/digital switch, the 100% wet and dry out & feedback loop with attenuator that you can break into the path of.

But I reckon we're looking at Feb/March for that.
Monobass
Any of these switches will work, They're ordered so the cheapest are first

http://uk.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=SPDT+toggle&Ns=Pricing %7c0&FS=True

US version - http://www2.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=spdt+toggle&Ns=Prici ng%7c0&FS=True
daluxer
wiring MY ASS IS BLEEDING
Stinktier86
Yay for expanders!
daluxer
Monobass/Thonk, would you mind adding it to modulargrid?
Nantonos
Monobass wrote:
So I'm pretty sure I will do a 4hp expander that will have the analog/digital switch, the 100% wet and dry out & feedback loop with attenuator that you can break into the path of.


Now he tells me. Well anyway, ordered, with the RCA-jack front panel onto which I can bodge a 100% wet out and a digital/spring switch.

Got the medium BTDR-2H and a Tube Amp Doctor 9EB2C1B.

Plan to put a little stripboard 072 buffer hanging precariously off the back of the wet output.
horstronic
Monobass wrote:
So I'm pretty sure I will do a 4hp expander that will have the analog/digital switch, the 100% wet and dry out & feedback loop with attenuator that you can break into the path of.

But I reckon we're looking at Feb/March for that.


This is gonna be awesome!
BBlack
Monobass wrote:
I'll have loose boards for sale next week thumbs up


hyper

Goldfish


Trampoline
Monobass
Nantonos wrote:
Monobass wrote:
So I'm pretty sure I will do a 4hp expander that will have the analog/digital switch, the 100% wet and dry out & feedback loop with attenuator that you can break into the path of.


Now he tells me. Well anyway, ordered, with the RCA-jack front panel onto which I can bodge a 100% wet out and a digital/spring switch.


Well I did mention it a few pages back too Mr. Green

But you guys will always be able to react quicker to things like this than I can be producing kits, and I'm interested to see what people do with it before committing to anything.
clusterchord
Monobass wrote:
So I'm pretty sure I will do a 4hp expander that will have the analog/digital switch, the 100% wet and dry out & feedback loop with attenuator that you can break into the path of.

But I reckon we're looking at Feb/March for that.

hooray for the expander - this deal gets better by the minute applause i've spent last cpl of pages straining my brain, wondering how to pull this off. i'd love to be able to do feedback stuff like a199 can and insert stuff into the loop..

i wonder what would happen if i connected an analog guitar pedal like phaser to the RCA jacks (tyipical input is 500k - 1M, output 10kOhm) ? this could be like the ideal modular interface for pedals if it worked. are the figures for the input and output impedance at RCA jacks known?

i also find the difference btwn the digi brick and the spring unmistakeable, but i'm consinderg getting two different sounding springs, maybe shorter and a longer...two characters... and add a switch for this.




one thing puzzles me tho; after reading your quick manual on behaviour of spring tanks and inherent hiss, positioning etc, i wonder about these two examples you guys posted posted:

they show marked difference in character and level of background noise. the first example (Thonk kit) exhibits some kind of sharp buzzing noise in the reverb trails. while the second example (altough tad darker and lower in volume) behaves as it should - smooth and acceptably quiet. earlier Tombola examples like the video also work fine, and don't exhibit the buzz. i mean, i got some springs in the studio, and there's no buzz like that either.

can this be avoided, and what is it dependant on?

what confuses me further is - the buzzing is present on both the digital and analog reverb portions of the first example, so it obviously isn't dependant on magnetic properties of real spring reverb.


Monobass wrote:
The one in this demo is the Medium, I've not tried the long.
[s]http://soundcloud.com/thonksynth/music-thing-modular-spring[/s]


Tombola wrote:
Another version of the same experiement; starts with real spring:
[s]http://soundcloud.com/musicthing/real-spring-reverb-vs-belton[/s]



thanks
337is
Quote:
So I'm pretty sure I will do a 4hp expander that will have the analog/digital switch, the 100% wet and dry out & feedback loop with attenuator that you can break into the path of.

But I reckon we're looking at Feb/March for that.


This sounds promising. If I build the kit now and wait for your expansion kit in the spring, do you think it'd be easy to mate the pair later? I may not try to hack my own mods if that's the case. thumbs up
337is
Quote:
So I'm pretty sure I will do a 4hp expander that will have the analog/digital switch, the 100% wet and dry out & feedback loop with attenuator that you can break into the path of.

But I reckon we're looking at Feb/March for that.


This sounds promising. If I build the kit now and wait for your expansion kit in the spring, do you think it'd be easy to mate the pair later? I may not try to hack my own mods if that's the case. thumbs up
337is
Well, my excuse for a second duplicate post is the food stupor I'm stumbling around in after American Thanksgiving ... seconds was the order of the day. ;-) Sorry.
Nantonos
daluxer wrote:
Monobass/Thonk, would you mind adding it to modulargrid?


Lots of panel photos around but none that are square-on.
Monobass
clusterchord wrote:

one thing puzzles me tho; after reading your quick manual on behaviour of spring tanks and inherent hiss, positioning etc, i wonder about these two examples you guys posted posted:


are you talking about an intermittant buzzing? there are certainly parts where the pitch of the oscillator goes so low it's buzzing. Can you point out a time in the file where you feel it's particularly present?
Monobass
337is wrote:
Quote:
So I'm pretty sure I will do a 4hp expander that will have the analog/digital switch, the 100% wet and dry out & feedback loop with attenuator that you can break into the path of.

But I reckon we're looking at Feb/March for that.


This sounds promising. If I build the kit now and wait for your expansion kit in the spring, do you think it'd be easy to mate the pair later? I may not try to hack my own mods if that's the case. thumbs up


yeah it'll be easy to integrate whether you do anything or not thumbs up
Nantonos
clusterchord wrote:

i wonder what would happen if i connected an analog guitar pedal like phaser to the RCA jacks (tyipical input is 500k - 1M, output 10kOhm) ? this could be like the ideal modular interface for pedals if it worked. are the figures for the input and output impedance at RCA jacks known?


The drive circuitry for the spring reverb is a constant current drive and I don't think it would really be suitable for a guitar pedal which is expecting a small, voltage signal from a high impedance. You might be better driving the pedal from a resistive divider to get it down to pedal-compatible levels and to give a high output impedance. seriously, i just don't get it not sure to be honest.

An output impedance of 10k is higher than usual for modular, but the recovery circuit is also expecting a high impedance and low level signal which is boosted up to modular levels, so it might work. However, the spring transducer is reactive: the output impedance (2.575 kΩ at 1kHz) and the DC output resistance (215 Ω) are very different.

Are the guitar pedal impedances resistive, and if not are they quoted at a particular frequency?

Because of the two-board approch on this module, keeping the front vactrol mixer board and making a new, guitar pedal driver/recovery rear board is an interesting option. Though you might want to use rear-panel connectors to case-mounted 1/4" TS jack sockets, as a more usual guitar pedal interface.
Tombola
Nantonos wrote:
clusterchord wrote:

i wonder what would happen if i connected an analog guitar pedal like phaser to the RCA jacks (tyipical input is 500k - 1M, output 10kOhm) ? this could be like the ideal modular interface for pedals if it worked. are the figures for the input and output impedance at RCA jacks known?


The drive circuitry for the spring reverb is a constant current drive and I don't think it would really be suitable for a guitar pedal which is expecting a small, voltage signal from a high impedance. You might be better driving the pedal from a resistive divider to get it down to pedal-compatible levels and to give a high output impedance. seriously, i just don't get it not sure to be honest.

An output impedance of 10k is higher than usual for modular, but the recovery circuit is also expecting a high impedance and low level signal which is boosted up to modular levels, so it might work. However, the spring transducer is reactive: the output impedance (2.575 kΩ at 1kHz) and the DC output resistance (215 Ω) are very different.

Are the guitar pedal impedances resistive, and if not are they quoted at a particular frequency?

Because of the two-board approch on this module, keeping the front vactrol mixer board and making a new, guitar pedal driver/recovery rear board is an interesting option. Though you might want to use rear-panel connectors to case-mounted 1/4" TS jack sockets, as a more usual guitar pedal interface.


Definitely don't try to use the spring drive/return to drive guitar pedals, but you could build a simple circuit on perfboard (like the Ken Stone stompbox adaptor) and connect it to the 5 pin header in this module - replacing the rear board - then you'd have CV-able and EQ-able send out to your stompboxes.

That's a great idea, I might try it...
tronabetes
damn, just went to get this... out of stock waah
clusterchord
Monobass wrote:
clusterchord wrote:

one thing puzzles me tho; after reading your quick manual on behaviour of spring tanks and inherent hiss, positioning etc, i wonder about these two examples you guys posted posted:


are you talking about an intermittant buzzing? there are certainly parts where the pitch of the oscillator goes so low it's buzzing. Can you point out a time in the file where you feel it's particularly present?


well it's present all the time.

however now that you mention it, after careful re-listening it seems there's some in the source signal (in the DRY passages). what confused me was, it gets louder during the WET passages, so i thought its coming from reverb circuitry or there's some grounding issue..


sounds we make on analogs are sometimes so close in character to noise or grounding artifacts that it can be hard to tell what is what.

edit: crap, now its out of stock. so soon? very frustrating

Tombola wrote:
Nantonos wrote:
The drive circuitry for the spring reverb is a constant current drive and I don't think it would really be suitable for a guitar pedal which is expecting a small, voltage signal from a high impedance. You might be better driving the pedal from a resistive divider to get it down to pedal-compatible levels and to give a high output impedance. seriously, i just don't get it not sure to be honest.

An output impedance of 10k is higher than usual for modular, but the recovery circuit is also expecting a high impedance and low level signal which is boosted up to modular levels, so it might work. However, the spring transducer is reactive: the output impedance (2.575 kΩ at 1kHz) and the DC output resistance (215 Ω) are very different.

Are the guitar pedal impedances resistive, and if not are they quoted at a particular frequency?

Because of the two-board approch on this module, keeping the front vactrol mixer board and making a new, guitar pedal driver/recovery rear board is an interesting option. Though you might want to use rear-panel connectors to case-mounted 1/4" TS jack sockets, as a more usual guitar pedal interface.


Definitely don't try to use the spring drive/return to drive guitar pedals, but you could build a simple circuit on perfboard (like the Ken Stone stompbox adaptor) and connect it to the 5 pin header in this module - replacing the rear board - then you'd have CV-able and EQ-able send out to your stompboxes.

That's a great idea, I might try it...



thanks Nantonos and Tombola, for clearing that up.


yes a version of this module geared specifically for pedals would be AWESOME. and solve an everpresent problem in connecting these two worlds. and wet/dry crossfade by CV could be put to good use.


tho, im not sure if CGS circuit can accommodate various scenarios in pedal world. something involving a transformer should work best, like in Reamp circuits. if there's a range switch for two different output impedances that would be even better, so you can emulate passive pickup (6 - 10k output Z) like strat and tele, or an active one like humbucker pickups, for example. going back input of 1M seems to be standard (on preamps, on git amps).

beside the cv and xf controls, think ideally there should be a pot for attenuation of output and gain control on input.



thanks
Monobass
tronabetes wrote:
damn, just went to get this... out of stock waah


clusterchord wrote:
edit: crap, now its out of stock. so soon? very frustrating


Still plenty of stock *without* knobs in both panel types.

I've had a supply delay in my restock of the regular black davies 1900hs.
Monobass
If anyone wants to order the 'no knobs' version but also grab the bigger wet/dry knob off me then drop me a PM with your order number... .or in fact for that matter if you want to order the no knobs version... but have me ship it with all the knobs but in very late December, then let me know about that too.
tronabetes
ah, didn't see that.

cool!, ordered.
sabasan
could I put the Accutronics 9EB2C1B
inside the deeper portable case ???
thanks
sam
sabasan wrote:
could I put the Accutronics 9EB2C1B
inside the deeper portable case ???
thanks

In my experience with various Spring Reverbs, it is not a good idea to have it next to power supply or circuits and to not be be able to move it around, that's why i ordered the external cinch connectors kit.

Thats a thing to consider.
337is
Quote:
yeah it'll be easy to integrate whether you do anything or not


Rockin' Banana!
horstronic
Just ordered my Kit It's peanut butter jelly time! nanners Rockin' Banana! It's motherfucking bacon yo
So from now on I'm sitting at the window, waiting for the postman hihi

How long does it usually take to get a kit to germany?
Can't wait!
Monobass
These start shipping Tues-Weds, I don't usually do it but I'll be prioritising shipping to my most far-flung customers first (Australia, Japan, Brazil)

The idea being that everyone who ordered should get it before xmas.

I reckon anyone who has already ordered in Germany should get it by the 13th December latest.... but shipping is already taking plenty longer than it did a month ago.
horstronic
Monobass wrote:

I reckon anyone who has already ordered in Germany should get it by the 13th December latest.... but shipping is already taking plenty longer than it did a month ago.


Awesome applause applause applause applause applause !!!
radiokoala
This is going to be my second DIY project - looking very much forward building it! Really enjoying that it could be used as an x-fader too - reverb and crossfade in 6 hp will make a lot of difference in my small 3U system thumbs up Only thing left to do is wait for PCB/panel option to appear - kits are cool, but part of fun for me is going to the electronics store. smile
Stinktier86
radiokoala wrote:
This is going to be my second DIY project - looking very much forward building it! Really enjoying that it could be used as an x-fader too - reverb and crossfade in 6 hp will make a lot of difference in my small 3U system thumbs up Only thing left to do is wait for PCB/panel option to appear - kits are cool, but part of fun for me is going to the electronics store. smile


USER TIP: More than that! Plug a dummy into the x-fade, which will break the connection and you'll have a vactrol ducker (ie. crude sidechain compressor). The trick also requires an amplitude follower, such as the a-119 ext. in. With a subtle slew in-between, one should be able to get some nice pumping/breathing dynamic effects.

EDIT: With the same signal going into the a-119 (then slewed) and the reverb in this particular setup, you actually have all the key elements of an optic compressor.
Monobass
Stinktier86 wrote:
USER TIP: More than that! Plug a dummy into the x-fade, which will break the connection and you'll have a vactrol ducker (ie. crude sidechain compressor). The trick also requires an amplitude follower, such as the a-119 ext. in. With a subtle slew in-between, one should be able to get some nice pumping/breathing dynamic effects.


applause applause applause
radiokoala
Great irony in that is it was me who contributed a vactrol ducker patch to the Positronic Transient Gate patchbook smile

Well, still great suggestion - I will be able to do it more than one way now!!! SlayerBadger! screaming goo yo
Zergon
wow, cool!
CometxYh1n1egyPt
I already ordered one but was wondering if there are plans to do another run of these once they sell out in the future??

Thanks,
Luke
Monobass
CometxYh1n1egyPt wrote:
I already ordered one but was wondering if there are plans to do another run of these once they sell out in the future??

Thanks,
Luke


yeah there is.
CometxYh1n1egyPt
Monobass wrote:
CometxYh1n1egyPt wrote:
I already ordered one but was wondering if there are plans to do another run of these once they sell out in the future??

Thanks,
Luke


yeah there is.


Great to know. I'll definitely want to build more of them in the future
Monobass
The kits will come in and out of stock, quite hard to negate that with only one pair of hands, the PCBs should be less interrupted once this initial bump is gone.
Nantonos
OOh, I see this is a real module, now.
Peake
SlayerBadger!
Monobass
Nantonos wrote:
OOh, I see this is a real module, now.


Thanks to yvanb for doing that. I'll get a better image when I get a chance.
Nantonos
Is the current draw on -12V really zero? I l know that some of the circuitry is on +5V so the draw on +12V will be greater if it is feeding a +5V regulator, but aren't there some op amp buffers drinking from the -12V rail?
Tombola
Nantonos wrote:
Is the current draw on -12V really zero? I l know that some of the circuitry is on +5V so the draw on +12V will be greater if it is feeding a +5V regulator, but aren't there some op amp buffers drinking from the -12V rail?


That's right, but I don't remember exactly what the -12v draw was.

The +5v only applies for the Brick, not the Spring. I know that the Brick draws a considerable amount of current - the datasheet says 60-100ma, my measurement was 75ma for the whole module.

The spring was much lower - 25ma overall.
Nantonos
Tombola wrote:
Nantonos wrote:
Is the current draw on -12V really zero? I l know that some of the circuitry is on +5V so the draw on +12V will be greater if it is feeding a +5V regulator, but aren't there some op amp buffers drinking from the -12V rail?


That's right, but I don't remember exactly what the -12v draw was.

The +5v only applies for the Brick, not the Spring. I know that the Brick draws a considerable amount of current - the datasheet says 60-100ma, my measurement was 75ma for the whole module.

The spring was much lower - 25ma overall.


OK so where modulargrid says 25 mA +12V the text should clarify that this is spring only. Or (for people who rely on modulargrid to add up all their current draws correctly) maybe the module should be duplicated for (spring) and (brick) versions?

I just added the clarifying text, will hold off on the module duplification for now.
EMwhite
Eagerly awaiting availability of the bare boards so I can buy qty. 6 or 7. (I think I read tomorrow or Friday) but the point of this is to suggest, strongly, that I think Tom is a strong candidate for DIY project of the year again.

Still get tons of use out of my Turing + Pulses add-on; amazing attention to detail and the reverb looks to be more of the same, can't wait to get mine going.
Spip
EMwhite wrote:
Eagerly awaiting availability of the bare boards...


+1 w00t
BBlack
Spip wrote:
EMwhite wrote:
Eagerly awaiting availability of the bare boards...


+1 w00t


I too, yes indeed!
broon_777
I got my kit yesterday morning and in a fit of excitement (impatience?) put it together right away...calibrated with reverb tank as per instructions and started to use. Reverb sounded absolutely fantastic with the modular (and even more so with a guitar) but I started getting distortions and cut outs after a few minutes. I thought it was just bad leads so swapped a few out...even replaced one of the jacks.. but problem only stopped when I pushed the OUT jack to the right slightly. Tip brushed against the socket on the way out and signal came right back...

When I took it apart it to check socket again it looks like the metal ground shield covering the socket was slightly touching the MIX output on the component side of board causing the output to short out. Swapped the jack & made sure there was a little more clearance this time and all seems well again.

Hope this helps if anyone has a similar issue when they build theirs from the kit...

Many thanks to Tombola for this amazing reverb project / documentation and thanks to Monobass for the excellent kit!!

It is easily the best sounding spring reverb I have ever used and was a breeze to put together (apart from my jack blunder!)
337is
So, perhaps some of you are better mental visualizers than I am. I was really surprised how big the spring tank is compared to the digital brick. Wow. Here's a picture comparing the sizes of the two which I took delivery of yesterday. Now just need the kit from Thonk (which is winging it's way across the Atlantic as I type) and the game is afoot! applause

radiokoala
Yea, this tank is huge. It looks like you can screw your 2U modules directly into it 8_)
EMwhite
The 8EB2C1B is 1" narrower and nearly 1/2 the length. May be a better choice depending on space constraints. I bought the MOD but it's based on the original Accu.

I haven't tried it with this MusicThing driver, only with the DIY version that Tom published here a year ago. I'm sure an A/B would yield a difference but it sounds good; I'm going to use it in my DIY guitar pedal based on the new board once made available.
337is
No real complaint on my part about the size of the tank as my Goike case will easily accommodate it. Might even be able to squeeze in two if I decide to build a second. Just thought I'd share my findings for those who might find it useful.

Good to know about the smaller tanks too. :-)
Rigo
337is wrote:
So, perhaps some of you are better mental visualizers than I am. I was really surprised how big the spring tank is compared to the digital brick. Wow. Here's a picture comparing the sizes of the two which I took delivery of yesterday. Now just need the kit from Thonk (which is winging it's way across the Atlantic as I type) and the game is afoot! applause


For some strange reasons the same things arrived at my home this week hihi
337is
Must be great minds thinking alike Rigo! 8_)
patilon
have some questions...

>Vactrol (VTL5C3) crossfade between dry and wet (vactrol circuits are >variable in their ability to go completely 100% wet, like the Make Noise >Echophon for example)
so it actually doesn´t go 100% wet? cry

anywhere in this thread it was talked about two different vactrols (slower/faster). which one is now included within the kit?

I´d be interested in a Front RCA Panel but with installation of the RCA-Jacks at the pcb (using the hole at the panel for wet-output and a tank/brick swith). are these RCA jacks which are included in the Front RCA Panel Kit
appropriate for pcb mount as well?

any opinions about the longer/shorter decay brick-versions so far?

thanks!
Stinktier86
Haven't ordered bricks yet but i think i'd like to have as short decay as possible, to diffentiate them from my long decay springs. Not sure, though..
radiokoala
Stinktier86 wrote:
Haven't ordered bricks yet but i think i'd like to have as short decay as possible, to diffentiate them from my long decay springs. Not sure, though..

Then one advice: on ebay there are options for medium and long decay times, however if you get one from e.g here, it will be a short (2.0 sec) version, as opposed to 2.5 & 2.8 sec options thumbs up
patilon
i found the sound-examples (brick vs. spring) totally different regarding the transparency (total apart from the decay), but having a 4 way swith and all three short/mid/long-bricks and the spring would be quite amazing wink

Quote:
however if you get one from e.g here, it will be a short (2.0 sec) version

thanks radiokoala, great tipp! will save me the extra-shipping costs from uk SlayerBadger!
Rick Burnett
337is wrote:
Must be great minds thinking alike Rigo! 8_)


Mine arrived as well, and given I bought both, I was thinking the same thing, haha. Can't wait for the kit to get here and put it all together!
Monobass
The Thonk build doc will probably be ready next week (a bit earlier than expected), in the meantime this will help

sduck
patilon wrote:
have some questions...

>Vactrol (VTL5C3) crossfade between dry and wet (vactrol circuits are >variable in their ability to go completely 100% wet, like the Make Noise >Echophon for example)
so it actually doesn´t go 100% wet? cry


Out of the box the mix control doesn't go 100% wet. This is apparently the result of a design compromise - you can have a mix control that fades in the reverb nice and evenly, but doesn't go 100% wet, or you can have it go to 100% (or closer to 100%) wet, but the fade range is much smaller and harder to control. You can change how this works by the value of R11 - it's 2.2K stock, but if you lower it the led in the vactrol (and the outboard one) light up more, which affects the mix. I experimented with lower values, but unless you're planning on using the X-fade function a lot, having better control over the mix wins out (for me at least), so I went back to the 2.2K.

There is an option for a separate full wet output on the pcb though. I've brought that to the front panel in my design.

patilon wrote:
anywhere in this thread it was talked about two different vactrols (slower/faster). which one is now included within the kit?


If it's still a VTL5C3, it's a fast one. That's what I got.
Monobass
The Thonk kit ships with a VTL5C3.

The planned expander will bring a buffered wet out to the panel.
Monobass
Build pics in lieu of the build document (coming the end of next week).

If you're not sure about anything you should wait for the build doc.









patilon
thanks!

i posted another question about the rca-jacks, if someone knows!?

Quote:
I´d be interested in a Front RCA Panel but with installation of the RCA-Jacks at the pcb (using the hole at the panel for wet-output and a tank/brick swith). are these RCA jacks which are included in the Front RCA Panel Kit appropriate for pcb mount as well?
Monobass
loose PCBs now for sale too

http://www.thonk.co.uk/shop/music-thing-modular-spring-pcb-set/

Loose Euro panel restock coming in Jan.


BBlack
Bought me some boards!

Been quite excited for this for some time - much thanks to all involved.
Nantonos
patilon wrote:
thanks!

i posted another question about the rca-jacks, if someone knows!?

Quote:
I´d be interested in a Front RCA Panel but with installation of the RCA-Jacks at the pcb (using the hole at the panel for wet-output and a tank/brick swith). are these RCA jacks which are included in the Front RCA Panel Kit appropriate for pcb mount as well?


Oh, good question; I had simply assumed they would fit and looking at these photos the panel mount and PCB-mount RCA jack sockets are quite different.
although since this is inside the case I could just solder on shielded cable dirct to the pcb-mount pads and useto the sockets on the other end, mounted on the case on some sort of small panel.
Nantonos
radiokoala wrote:
Stinktier86 wrote:
Haven't ordered bricks yet but i think i'd like to have as short decay as possible, to diffentiate them from my long decay springs. Not sure, though..

Then one advice: on ebay there are options for medium and long decay times, however if you get one from e.g here, it will be a short (2.0 sec) version, as opposed to 2.5 & 2.8 sec options thumbs up


I wonder if these bricks would be okay socketed, so you could plug different ones in? At €14.49 its inexpensive to try a different one. I have a medium.
Monobass
The kits only include the RCA jacks relevant to the panel you are buying. You can of course buy the rear type loose from Mouser. I may buy spares and stock them next year, but its not a high priority for me.
radiokoala
Yahoo! Sick hyper BTW: How much for a panel?
Monobass
When I sell loose panels the PCB type will be 5.5 GBP (approx $9)

The aluminium panels (rear jacks) will be approx 12 GBP, 20 USD.
Rick Burnett
I am going to do both the tank and the brick, which had me wondering, do I need to order additional parts before my kit comes in to do both (beyond a switch to select between them)?

I remember reading that you only needed to populate the portion depending on which reverb you were using.

And if this is the case, do you have a part list for what I'd need to order additionally (again other than my switch) to do both?
Tombola
Nantonos wrote:

I wonder if these bricks would be okay socketed, so you could plug different ones in? At €14.49 its inexpensive to try a different one. I have a medium.


Yes, you can socket them with a length of female header - works pretty well
radiokoala
Monobass wrote:

When I sell loose panels the PCB type will be 5.5 GBP (approx $9)

The aluminium panels (rear jacks) will be approx 12 GBP, 20 USD.

Great, I think I'll wait until you have both (and 2 small black davies!) online and then make an order. Any way, I am going to go for a stroll to the local electronics store tomorrow and hopefully will find all I need for this project and be prepared thumbs up
Monobass
Rick Burnett wrote:
I am going to do both the tank and the brick, which had me wondering, do I need to order additional parts before my kit comes in to do both (beyond a switch to select between them)?

I remember reading that you only needed to populate the portion depending on which reverb you were using.

And if this is the case, do you have a part list for what I'd need to order additionally (again other than my switch) to do both?


I Included everything for both the spring and brick, so you need nothing other than the brick or tank itself (and the switch if you want it).

At first I was going to offer options to buy a kit for one or the other or both, but frankly this kit is already such great value it didn't make much sense, it would have taken me much longer to pack and sort... and experience has taught me that always just leads to more waiting and 'out of stock' periods.
Nantonos
Tombola wrote:
Nantonos wrote:

I wonder if these bricks would be okay socketed, so you could plug different ones in? At €14.49 its inexpensive to try a different one. I have a medium.


Yes, you can socket them with a length of female header - works pretty well


Cool, thanks for the confirmation. I assumed it would work but some components don't like the extra inductance and stray capacitance that socketing can bring.
Rick Burnett
Monobass wrote:

I Included everything for both the spring and brick, so you need nothing other than the brick or tank itself (and the switch if you want it).

At first I was going to offer options to buy a kit for one or the other or both, but frankly this kit is already such great value it didn't make much sense, it would have taken me much longer to pack and sort... and experience has taught me that always just leads to more waiting and 'out of stock' periods.


That's excellent! Thanks.

I see in the schematic that it's a jumper setting to select between them. I guess I could build a simple attenuator circuit as well and sum both up with a simple op-amp summer before feeding the signal back in.

Anything like this going to happen on the expander?
Monobass
Hmmm, interested to hear tom's thoughts on a digital/analog mix...
Spip
Monobass wrote:
loose PCBs now for sale too

http://www.thonk.co.uk/shop/music-thing-modular-spring-pcb-set/


2 sets of PCB ordered with their vactrols w00t w00t
Tombola
Monobass wrote:
Hmmm, interested to hear tom's thoughts on a digital/analog mix...


If I get a chance, I'll have a look at this - can't see why it wouldn't work. I'll also take a look at CV-able feedback, see if there's a way to turn the x-fader into a xyz fader
Stinktier86
Tombola wrote:
Monobass wrote:
Hmmm, interested to hear tom's thoughts on a digital/analog mix...


If I get a chance, I'll have a look at this - can't see why it wouldn't work. I'll also take a look at CV-able feedback, see if there's a way to turn the x-fader into a xyz fader


Fantastic! These efforts are so much appreciated.
jgb
Damn! I missed the kits. :( Will there be more of them? When? I better start saving money now...
Stinktier86
jgb wrote:
Damn! I missed the kits. :( Will there be more of them? When? I better start saving money now...


Kits (panel b option) are still in stock, if that's an alternative for you.
Flux302
Just bought my kit today! It's motherfucking bacon yo very much interested in an expander as well if it should come. I think I may also want to set up a switch for both digital and spring tank applause
Thanks so much for the hard work put into this! nanners
jgb
Stinktier86 wrote:
Kits (panel b option) are still in stock, if that's an alternative for you.


Panel a option is back in stock, now I have bought two of them, plus two digital bricks. Will check out my reverb tanks (I already have 5-6 of them) before getting new ones.

Christmas is saved, daddy's is adding to the backlog! grin
337is
W00T!



The mailman braved sub-zero temps to deliver this today. Can't wait to start my build.

Thank you Thonk, and Music Thing! thumbs up

It's peanut butter jelly time! It's peanut butter jelly time! nanners nanners Rockin' Banana! Rockin' Banana! It's motherfucking bacon yo It's motherfucking bacon yo
Monobass
The Aluminium panel version (rear RCAs) is in stock now too, not shipping until early January though. Loose panels coming Jan 2014 too.

http://www.thonk.co.uk/shop/springreverbkit/
djthopa
Hi!
Did anyone order the tank from Hot rox in the uk?
I placed the order on the 28th of November and havent heard from them since. Ive written two emails to them and no reply.
Im going to have to call them up angry
Monobass
Yeah I did, so did Tombola I think.

I'm wondering if they're out of stock, we've probably created quite a bump in demand.
djthopa
Thanks for the reply.

I just chequed my junk email folder and had an email from them saying they are looking into it.

Hopefully its been posted!
algo
Just to confirm...if I go for Panel B with the RCAs on the front, I can have the brick installed in the rear, then use the RCAs to connect the analog spring in the future?

When the expander comes out I will be able to switch between them or connect a toggle myself?
Stinktier86
algo wrote:
Just to confirm...if I go for Panel B with the RCAs on the front, I can have the brick installed in the rear, then use the RCAs to connect the analog spring in the future?

When the expander comes out I will be able to switch between them or connect a toggle myself?


Yes! There's a jumper on the PCB which decides if the brick or the tank is being used. Installing a two-way switch to this jumper for on-panel access is a very simple procedure, provided you find suitable panel space to put a switch on to.

The switch is by no means necessary for you to install both solutions, it just makes everyday handling a bit more comfortable.
algo
Great, thanks Stinktier86 smile
radiokoala
Some news on my front: went and bought most of the components today... want to say thanks for designing this project so that it uses the most commonly available parts - nearly all was well within reach in a store thumbs up

The only exceptions were 1N4001 diodes (x2) and .2a PTC fuse (x2) - any possible substitutions? Maybe just use LED/diode/thin wire instead of fuse?

Thanks,
Igor
NorthernLightX
1N4001 are standard rectifier diodes, you can often substitute any 1N400x value.
radiokoala
Thx, maybe they don't have 1N400 anything, but I know for sure they have stock full of 1N4148. Will these do?
Nantonos
radiokoala wrote:
Thx, maybe they don't have 1N400 anything, but I know for sure they have stock full of 1N4148. Will these do?


No, those are signal diodes (and have skinny little leads and low current rating) while rectifier diodes have big thick leads and higher current rating.

1N4148:
Forward Surge Current Ifsm Max: 2A

1N4001:
Forward Surge Current Ifsm Max: 30A
Tombola
@radiokoala

That's the reverse polarity protection

You have two choices:

Order from somewhere else

Or: bypass it: leave the diodes out and replace the fuse with wire.
Do not do it the other way around!
Do not connect your module the wrong way around, either.
L.C.O.
So, i too have received the kit.
What can i start assembling now, before complete instructions are available? Anybody has any recommendations?
ruidobello
Just arriving home and my kit is here!!!
I know what I'm doing tonight!!!
Thank you to all involved!
sduck
L.C.O. wrote:
So, i too have received the kit.
What can i start assembling now, before complete instructions are available? Anybody has any recommendations?


?? Do you have the docs that are available on the website? That's pretty much all you need. There's not a lot of parts, and it's clearly labeled what goes where. Hope you don't need step by step instructions. Read everything in the docs, take long looks at the pics, and it should be pretty clear how to proceed.
johnchantler
got mine. all built and working.
L.C.O.
sduck wrote:
L.C.O. wrote:
So, i too have received the kit.
What can i start assembling now, before complete instructions are available? Anybody has any recommendations?


?? Do you have the docs that are available on the website? That's pretty much all you need. There's not a lot of parts, and it's clearly labeled what goes where. Hope you don't need step by step instructions. Read everything in the docs, take long looks at the pics, and it should be pretty clear how to proceed.


great!
337is
I'm itching to start too ... but, as I'm a total N00B to this world, I was thinking I should wait until the Thonk material is ready. It seems like he really goes out of his way to help us rookies. I think I'd benefit from the extra hand holding.

Or, am I being too big of a baby and should I hop in with the pictures and documents that are currently available? hmmm.....
Nantonos
Monobass wrote:
These start shipping Tues-Weds, I don't usually do it but I'll be prioritising shipping to my most far-flung customers first (Australia, Japan, Brazil)

The idea being that everyone who ordered should get it before xmas.

I reckon anyone who has already ordered in Germany should get it by the 13th December latest.... but shipping is already taking plenty longer than it did a month ago.


So, now that folks from the US are reporting their kits arriving, I'm wondering if kits have been shipped to the lower priority (nearer the UK) places yet?
horstronic
Nantonos wrote:
Monobass wrote:
These start shipping Tues-Weds, I don't usually do it but I'll be prioritising shipping to my most far-flung customers first (Australia, Japan, Brazil)

The idea being that everyone who ordered should get it before xmas.

I reckon anyone who has already ordered in Germany should get it by the 13th December latest.... but shipping is already taking plenty longer than it did a month ago.


So, now that folks from the US are reporting their kits arriving, I'm wondering if kits have been shipped to the lower priority (nearer the UK) places yet?


I was wondering about that, too...
Stinktier86
Thonk,

I got my parcel today, but it did only contain one kit, and i ordered two! eek!

Trying to troubleshoot this one. Do each kit come in a separate parcel?
L.C.O.
I think I will go with the all blue ensemble...




... but the red and white looks nice too!
Tombola
Given that it contains a vactrol x-fader distantly related to the one in the music easel, I think you're safe to go with the blue...
Rigo
horstronic wrote:
I was wondering about that, too...

Mine arrived this week on Tuesday, but since I wasn't home I had to go and take it on Wednesday. But I ordered quite fast after the message of availability was spread ...
Chopper28
My order here in the UK arrived today hyper But with all my Christmas stuff still to do, don't know when it will get built seriously, i just don't get it
Rick Burnett
Haha, mine apparently showed up today but my wife didn't hear the knock on the door so I have to pick it up tomorrow! smile
grizzle
Received my kit, built it, and it sounds amazing! I'm using the long brick and it sounds super cool. Once I get my hands on a spring I'm going to attach a switch to the front panel... Can't wait to hear both the spring and the brick together!

Thanks for a great reverb!

alex
Monobass
Stinktier86 wrote:
Thonk,

I got my parcel today, but it did only contain one kit, and i ordered two! eek!

Trying to troubleshoot this one. Do each kit come in a separate parcel?


No I just most likely made a mistake there if it was a single order, can you drop me an email or PM me your order details and I'll get the other kit out to you straight away.

On the order front, well it's not a lie to say I've been overwhelmed, I've been shipping constantly, every day, for two weeks now. I've shipped everything up to order 3299 now and I think I'll be up to date with all current orders shipped by Saturday, monday at the latest.
horstronic
Monobass wrote:
Stinktier86 wrote:
Thonk,

I got my parcel today, but it did only contain one kit, and i ordered two! eek!

Trying to troubleshoot this one. Do each kit come in a separate parcel?


No I just most likely made a mistake there if it was a single order, can you drop me an email or PM me your order details and I'll get the other kit out to you straight away.

On the order front, well it's not a lie to say I've been overwhelmed, I've been shipping constantly, every day, for two weeks now. I've shipped everything up to order 3299 now and I think I'll be up to date with all current orders shipped by Saturday, monday at the latest.


Yay, that means my one is on the way It's motherfucking bacon yo
L.C.O.
Which leg of the LED is + ?
grizzle
The longer leg is the positive one.
L.C.O.
grizzle wrote:
The longer leg is the positive one.


Thanks,
sduck
Ah, you still haven't downloaded the build docs? Get them here http://musicthing.co.uk/modular/?page_id=579 - your led question is answered in there, along with a ton of other useful stuff.
L.C.O.
sduck wrote:
Ah, you still haven't downloaded the build docs? Get them here http://musicthing.co.uk/modular/?page_id=579 - your led question is answered in there, along with a ton of other useful stuff.


You know, i did find all these files, but somehow do not see the LED info.
In any case i finished the build. And a lovely piece it is!

For now just with the brick, but i think i will get a tank as well, and perhaps add a front panel switch later. there seems to be a little room for a small switch under the jacks (where the front RCA plugs would have been...)


Tombola
@LCO Looks great! So exciting to see these in the wild.

Just make sure a switch will fit without touching the case. On the other panel, the entire module is moved up a bit to make space for the front phonos
radiokoala
Will aluminum panel also have a blue logo?

Looks great in the flesh BTW! thumbs up
Monobass
The Aluminium panel has black print, like the one pictured above.

Or did you mean blue knobs?
patilon
@ L.C.O.

the blue ones look totally great! is it possible to get these knobs anywhere?

Front RCA Kit now out of stock.. if someone from EU happened to have bought more than he needed.. i´d like one! very frustrating
Monobass
Xpander often does group buys on the blue rogan knobs

The front RCA kit will be back in stock in Jan. If it wasn't Xmas then I'd probably be able to keep it all in stock for a while but everything slows down in the next 2 weeks.
radiokoala
Monobass wrote:
The Aluminium panel has black print, like the one pictured above.

Or did you mean blue knobs?

Music Thing Modular is written in blue (as shown on a page 32 photos). That's what I meant by logo.
Monobass
Ah sorry, I see what you mean, not it's silver. It must just be a reflection.
Stinktier86
Thanks for sorting out my issue so quickly! Can't think of how customer service could be better in any way. we're not worthy
Tombola
Logo colour is user selectable, depending on the t-shirt worn while patching
horstronic
Tombola wrote:
Logo colour is user selectable, depending on the t-shirt worn while patching


Lolhammer!
Nantonos
Monobass wrote:

On the order front, well it's not a lie to say I've been overwhelmed, I've been shipping constantly, every day, for two weeks now.

Fair enough. I was more worried that it shipped and had gone astray to be honest.

Monobass wrote:
I've shipped everything up to order 3299 now and I think I'll be up to date with all current orders shipped by Saturday, monday at the latest.

OK. I'm #3209. I got an email on the 11th saying "I've informed roughly 50% of people of their tracking codes so far". I must be in the other 50%.
mechie
Got mine mid-day yesterday - built it last night (about 2 hours)
Having fun with the long delay brick.

Wondering if I should have bought a pair hmmm.....

During build I did manage to lose a PCB mounting screw and found that one pot nut is different to the others ... so ...

I have a screw loose and my nuts are different sizes poke
337is
Quote:
I have a screw loose and my nuts are different sizes
applause

Quote:
built it last night (about 2 hours)


mechie, thank you for the specific details. On a scale of 1-10 how would you rate:

A) Your previous DIY experience/abilities
B) The difficulty of assembling this kit

Thanks!
Monobass
mechie wrote:
Got mine mid-day yesterday - built it last night (about 2 hours)
Having fun with the long delay brick.

Wondering if I should have bought a pair hmmm.....

During build I did manage to lose a PCB mounting screw and found that one pot nut is different to the others ... so ...

I have a screw loose and my nuts are different sizes poke


Ah ok, they pots may well have been purchased from different sources, but the nut that was different worked fine on he pot it was originally attached to right?
mechie
337is wrote:
mechie, thank you for the specific details. On a scale of 1-10 how would you rate:

A) Your previous DIY experience/abilities
B) The difficulty of assembling this kit

Thanks!

A)
I have done electronics as a hobby for decades now, my first synth was a Practical Electronics Minisonic, built during a school summer holiday.
I do a lot of building, kit and matrix board, and consider myself as pretty competent (but pride comes before a fall?)
A sample of the insanity I have been responsible for can be seen >HERE<
I would rate this kit as maybe an intermediate, not difficult, just a bit fiddly with things on both sides of both PCBs.

B)
I would say the kit is not too bad IF you stay focussed and methodical, as it says in the build doc, you need to concentrate on BOTH sides of both boards, the silkscreen printing is very helpful IF you read it, but look at the supplied photos in this thread as well as the build doc! Check before soldering!


Monobass wrote:

Ah ok, they pots may well have been purchased from different sources, but the nut that was different worked fine on he pot it was originally attached to right?

Absolutely, no problem - just a short "WTF" moment whilst I got a grip on reality! Maybe pushing to get it finished a bit too fast????
The screw must be on the floor somewhere, I have a bag of 100 from RS so no dramas there - the original still counts as 'a loose screw' though seriously, i just don't get it
sduck
L.C.O. wrote:
sduck wrote:
Ah, you still haven't downloaded the build docs? Get them here http://musicthing.co.uk/modular/?page_id=579 - your led question is answered in there, along with a ton of other useful stuff.


You know, i did find all these files, but somehow do not see the LED info.
In any case i finished the build. And a lovely piece it is!


It looks great!

And sorry for being a smartass. I was having one of those tired/cranky moments. Sometimes I forget how many times I've asked the same sort of things.
337is
Super helpful details mechie, thank you very much. :-)

And WOW to your build link. Intense and impressive.

EDIT: tez spellerzings
patilon
Quote:
Xpander often does group buys on the blue rogan knobs

The front RCA kit will be back in stock in Jan. If it wasn't Xmas then I'd probably be able to keep it all in stock for a while but everything slows down in the next 2 weeks.


thanks Monobass!! hyper
sduck
Finished up my dual version - 5U MOTM format. Sounds great! I added some normalizations - the left side inputs for the main signal and the cv are routed to the switching jacks of the other side. And there's the buffer circuit for the direct wet out Tombola suggested a few pages back.


Thonk Music Thing Dual Spring Reverb front by sduck409, on Flickr


Thonk Music Thing Dual Spring Reverb profile by sduck409, on Flickr


Thonk Music Thing Dual Spring Reverb back by sduck409, on Flickr
Monobass
Great work Sduck!
radiokoala
applause Cool as hell. w00t
337is
That is a thing of beauty sduck!
337is
Tombola
Quote:
Yes, you can socket them with a length of female header - works pretty well


So, I'm in the middle of my build and thinking about this ... I so wet behind the DIY ears that I need to ask what might be an obvious question. Is a "length of female header" sort of like what is used to power eurorack modules? Would I essentially be taking some ribbon cable, stripping six of the strands, and using something like the female headers in those cables? Or is there a special female header and cable needed to do this socket option? Not sure I'll get another brick, but figure its not a bad idea to make the future option easier should I want to. Thanks for any guidance.
Tombola
No, It's much simpler than that. You need a bit of what is called 'single row sockets' on this page: http://www.bitsbox.co.uk/connectors/header_con.html

It's the same thing that connects the front board to the back board.

You solder that into the PCB and the brick will go into that.
L.C.O.
Tombola wrote:
No, It's much simpler than that. You need a bit of what is called 'single row sockets' on this page: http://www.bitsbox.co.uk/connectors/header_con.html

It's the same thing that connects the front board to the back board.

You solder that into the PCB and the brick will go into that.


i should have done that!
:-)
Would be fun to try different versions of the brick.
But, the deed is done now. i soldered it in. Mine was the Long decay version.

incidentally, i also have a brand new unopened brick with Short decay version reverb if anyone is interested: i'd be happy to let that one go. PM me.

337is
Thank you Tombola! I might look to secure that part somewhere Stateside.

On a more troubling note, I've run into a complication in my build where I'm pretty sure I have a wrong part. I've taken a picture to try and best explain it:



I don't even really know for sure what this part is called. But it has 8 pairs of legs on it and the board only has seven pairs of holes for it. Likewise, the chip that eventually slots into it has seven pairs of legs. There seems to be enough physical space on the PCB to allow for the 8 hole base. Could I just snip the end pair of legs off and solder it up?

Apologies for my n00bieness.

Edit: I like pears.
taylor12k
i've run into a problem, too. i seem to be missing one of the 1k resistors. there's clearly two of them on the board (R7 and R8) but i had only one 1k bag and it was labelled R8

oh, but wait.. now i notice that there's a 47k resistor that's labelled on the bag as R7... so i assume this 47k i supposed to go in that 1k R7 slot?

thanks for the help!
337is
Hey taylor12k, I can't help with the question you have, but it pleases me to know that we're both working on this project at the same time. :-) Hope your build goes beautifully.
horstronic
taylor12k wrote:
i've run into a problem, too. i seem to be missing one of the 1k resistors. there's clearly two of them on the board (R7 and R8) but i had only one 1k bag and it was labelled R8

oh, but wait.. now i notice that there's a 47k resistor that's labelled on the bag as R7... so i assume this 47k i supposed to go in that 1k R7 slot?

thanks for the help!


The value of R7 depends on what vactrol you're using. If you're using a Silinox 32SR3, it's 470Ω, if you're using a VTL5C3, it's 47k.
As you seem to use the kit, you probably have a VTL5C3 and the 47k one is just right.
taylor12k
yeah, it's the kit... so i'll go ahead and put it in.. thanks!


horstronic wrote:
taylor12k wrote:
i've run into a problem, too. i seem to be missing one of the 1k resistors. there's clearly two of them on the board (R7 and R8) but i had only one 1k bag and it was labelled R8

oh, but wait.. now i notice that there's a 47k resistor that's labelled on the bag as R7... so i assume this 47k i supposed to go in that 1k R7 slot?

thanks for the help!


The value of R7 depends on what vactrol you're using. If you're using a Silinox 32SR3, it's 470Ω, if you're using a VTL5C3, it's 47k.
As you seem to use the kit, you probably have a VTL5C3 and the 47k one is just right.
taylor12k
i hope you get some great sounds out of it!

337is wrote:
Hey taylor12k, I can't help with the question you have, but it pleases me to know that we're both working on this project at the same time. :-) Hope your build goes beautifully.
horstronic
taylor12k wrote:
yeah, it's the kit... so i'll go ahead and put it in.. thanks!


horstronic wrote:
taylor12k wrote:
i've run into a problem, too. i seem to be missing one of the 1k resistors. there's clearly two of them on the board (R7 and R8) but i had only one 1k bag and it was labelled R8

oh, but wait.. now i notice that there's a 47k resistor that's labelled on the bag as R7... so i assume this 47k i supposed to go in that 1k R7 slot?

thanks for the help!


The value of R7 depends on what vactrol you're using. If you're using a Silinox 32SR3, it's 470Ω, if you're using a VTL5C3, it's 47k.
As you seem to use the kit, you probably have a VTL5C3 and the 47k one is just right.


beer!
taylor12k
i'm at this part now, with the same concern... 8/16 pin component but only 7/14 holes in the board... what did you do??



337is wrote:
Thank you Tombola! I might look to secure that part somewhere Stateside.

On a more troubling note, I've run into a complication in my build where I'm pretty sure I have a wrong part. I've taken a picture to try and best explain it:



I don't even really know for sure what this part is called. But it has 8 pairs of legs on it and the board only has seven pairs of holes for it. Likewise, the chip that eventually slots into it has seven pairs of legs. There seems to be enough physical space on the PCB to allow for the 8 hole base. Could I just snip the end pair of legs off and solder it up?

Apologies for my n00bieness.

Edit: I like pears.
flocked
Could anyone record a comparison between the a199 and this? Would be awesome smile
mckenic
For the TL074 socket - I would just cut off the plastic & the last two legs (the last one on either side - the end opposite the notch) and solder the socket in.




All it is doing is holding the 14pin IC, its convenient to use the socket (for changing chips/repair) as its a nightmare to desolder the chip if it needs replacing in the future - you could prolly just pop out the last metal legs on either side and use the socket as-is if there is space between components.
mikecameron
337is wrote:
Thank you Tombola! I might look to secure that part somewhere Stateside.

On a more troubling note, I've run into a complication in my build where I'm pretty sure I have a wrong part. I've taken a picture to try and best explain it:



I don't even really know for sure what this part is called. But it has 8 pairs of legs on it and the board only has seven pairs of holes for it. Likewise, the chip that eventually slots into it has seven pairs of legs. There seems to be enough physical space on the PCB to allow for the 8 hole base. Could I just snip the end pair of legs off and solder it up?

Apologies for my n00bieness.

Edit: I like pears.


That's an IC socket. You can snip off 2 of the legs (on the end without the indentation). If you think this will damage the plastic beyon the point of usability, you could try pushing the pins back through the top to remove them. It looks like there's room on the board for the extra 2 holes to just 'hang out'

edit: Yeah, I mean, what he ^ said.
337is
taylor12k wrote:
i'm at this part now, with the same concern... 8/16 pin component but only 7/14 holes in the board... what did you do??


I finished all the other bits I could except this and am waiting to hear more. It's late in the UK so I reckon we might not hear anything until tomorrow. Will dream of lush reverb tonight! :-)
337is
Ohh, mckenic and mikecameron you are really tempting me to live wildly! Nervous as a rookie but really tempted .... eek!
taylor12k
thanks.. i'll just snip the legs off..there's room for the entire socket.!

almost done!
L.C.O.
i had the same mis-matched part.
i ended up just cutting off two legs from whichever end.
i installed mine so that it overlapped one of the resistors, but after the fact realized that i could have left the extra, unused plastic hanging on the opposite side, as there is actually a little extra room there. just like in the picture posted earlier. just cut off the two legs on the left side, and leave the plastic intact.

There is also an interesting kink that i encountered which. involves the jack socket installation. i think Steve will be posting something about it soon. A detail that needs to be observed when installing the jack inputs that in my case caused signal dropouts. Took all day today to troubleshoot, but in the end problem was identified and solved!
taylor12k
damn!..

the module is done... plugged in (yikes that LED is bright) and it passes signal and the filter/tilt works.. but i'm not getting any reverb.

i've build the brick version (but put all of the components in for the spring as well) and have the jumper in the correct spot.

just not getting any reverb... all dry.

will have to inspect in the morning.
337is
Woot! Snippage worked and I'm getting great reverb from the brick! I agree that the LED is super bright. something wonderful

I'm going to try hooking up the full analogue tank now.

Sorry yours isn't behaving quite yet Taylor, and I hope it's a quick fix in the AM.

Thank you all for the help. It sounds great!
337is
Last post from a happy me. First synth kit built. YAY! My wife and I worked on it for about eight hours. We were slow, deliberate, and checked each other's work.

The most complicated kit we'd built before now was an LED PCB Christmas tree. This was quite the step up in difficulty. But the AMAZING PCB design, and the lovingly created kit, combined with the build documentation, the pictures, and the friendly help in this thread helped to create an AWESOME first time build experience. I've got both tanks installed and working. Tomorrow morning with fresh eyes and ears we'll go through the calibration process and mount the tank in the case.

Monobass and Tombola, your creativity and initiative has help to make me a happier person. Ever since I heard Peter Namlook's work with EMS kit, I've wanted my own synth with a joystick and a spring reverb. Your kit with my Planar makes my case closer to my dream synth than I ever imagined I might get. Thank you. thumbs up
Monobass
Ugh, sorry guys. Looks like i shipped around 15 kits with 16 pin sockets instead of 14 pin.

Cutting them down is totally fine, but if you'd prefer not to do that then I'm happy to send a new one for free or send a reund for that part.
Monobass
Thanks 337is, the pleasure goes both ways!
Monobass
Oh and if you don't like the LED brightness, try white nail polish.
The part i selected is actually less bright than the one tombola recommends as I don't like them too bright either.

Often you can change a resistor to reduce brightness but with this kit its not recommended as it'll also affect the brightness of the LED in the vactrol which will change the repsonse of the wet/dry knob.
taylor12k
we can just snip two pins off,yes? no need to break the plastic or remove the metal of the extra pins entirely?

Monobass wrote:
Ugh, sorry guys. Looks like i shipped around 15 kits with 16 pin sockets instead of 14 pin.

Cutting them down is totally fine, but if you'd prefer not to do that then I'm happy to send a new one for free or send a reund for that part.
Monobass
My advice to do it safely is nibble away at the end with the notch in like this, the pins pop out easily.



Then you can tidy it a little if you want to, but it's best not to go too near to the other pins.

You can do it the other end too, but there's more chance of breaking the 'bridge' between the two rows that end.
Monobass
Another builders tip, one wiggler has a problem with intermittant connections on the input & output jacks. To solve this he snipped a little bit of the metal shroud around the jack away (this only applies to the input and output jacks, not X-fade or CV) as they were shorting the wiring pads at the bottom of the PCB to ground.

I haven't had this problem in any of my builds, nor has Tombola and no one else reported it to date, I think it's because generally the jacks tend to pull up off the board a little. It is advisable with jacks and pots to place them in the PCB without soldering, then tighten the panel on with the nuts, solder them all, then remove the panel again.

If you have this problem it isn't a danger to the circuit, it just simply dumps the signal straight to ground.






You can do it easily enough with the jacks in place with a pair of snips, but you can also just bend it up a little out of the way.
taylor12k
is it ok tho if we just snip the pins? and leave a little metal bit inside the hole?\

i've already soldered mine in.. so to take it out to break off the plastic will be a pain in the ass.

i'm trying to figure out why everything on my module works except the reverb! i can't get any wet reverb signal

Monobass wrote:
My advice to do it safely is nibble away at the end with the notch in like this, the pins pop out easily.
Then you can tidy it a little if you want to, but it's best not to go too near to the other pins.

You can do it the other end too, but there's more chance of breaking the 'bridge' between the two rows that end.
Monobass
taylor12k wrote:
is it ok tho if we just snip the pins? and leave a little metal bit inside the hole?


yes, you'd want to avoid them touching anything... but they're isolated so it probably wouldn't do anything even if they were.
Jonachi
What color are the LEDS in the kits? I usually use purple or pink and would love to continue to do that. I have plenty of them laying around though
radiokoala
White.
337is
Monobass wrote:
Cutting them down is totally fine, but if you'd prefer not to do that then I'm happy to send a new one for free or send a reund for that part.


This = Quality. Upstanding man and great company. Thank you for the solid work and for standing by your business so directly. I couldn't be happier with my build experience. thumbs up
Tombola
@jonachi - changing the LED shouldn't be a problem. It's in series with the vactrol LED which is why you can't really change the protection resistor. Normal non superbrights should also work.
Rigo
Monobass wrote:
Ugh, sorry guys. Looks like i shipped around 15 kits with 16 pin sockets instead of 14 pin.

Cutting them down is totally fine, but if you'd prefer not to do that then I'm happy to send a new one for free or send a reund for that part.

Didn't start to build yet, but did check the socket ... and it's the wrong one as well. So I just changed it with a 14 pin one, no need for sending another one hihi
sduck
I also got one of the 16 pin sockets - if you just clip off the leads on the non-notched end the parts that are left won't touch anything, as long as you haven't messed up anything else. You might want to solder in the 5 pin connector before the socket though. (normally I'd have a few spare sockets on hand, but this time I only had even more 16 pin sockets - boo!)
Monobass
This is my socket WWII.
Rigo
Monobass wrote:
This is my socket WWII.

Turn it into an opportunity ... Convince people how convenient it can be to have a nice collection of sockets at home hihi
337is
I know you're all probably fatiguing of my constant chatter on this build, but I've had so much fun and am thrilled with the results. Just want to share a few more pictures and one video and then I'll simmer down. hyper

Hmmm...well the picture uploading feature appears to be busted at the mo. So maybe I'll post a few build pics later. In the meantime here's a short video of our first attempt at the feedback patch mentioned in the build tutorial:



I think my woofer was overwhelmed. ;-)
sammy123
Haha. Nice thumbs up
Rick Burnett
I got the 16 pins as well but trimmed it down, no problem.

Brick works perfect, tank refuses to work. I bought the recommended tank from the guide and RCA from the place for it.

I adjust the R and nothing changes. I double checked and reflowed all solder joints for the spring. I swapped ICs with the brick circuit. I imagine it could still be the wire. I know there are some requirements for the wire, maybe that is the problem. I'm just not sure what the check next.

When the white is attached (out to tank) to the reverb, I feel the springs moving a bit. (vibration) when I use a VCA and a tight pulse to hit the tank with.

Ideas?

(And yes, the jumper is on the correct setting for spring)
L.C.O.
337is wrote:
I know you're all probably fatiguing of my constant chatter on this build, but I've had so much fun and am thrilled with the results. Just want to share a few more pictures and one video and then I'll simmer down. hyper

Hmmm...well the picture uploading feature appears to be busted at the mo. So maybe I'll post a few build pics later. In the meantime here's a short video of our first attempt at the feedback patch mentioned in the build tutorial:



I think my woofer was overwhelmed. ;-)


Güüd one, :-)
davidh
just built my twin spring, with big tanks, so fresh applause
love those big knobs by the way SlayerBadger!


337is
Dang davidh, those are some SWEET sounds you're pulling out of that set up. Well done. Love the part around the 6 minute part of the first video. Those are some fast-@$$ bees flying by in the cave in your second video! twisted

What's the module to the left of the Spring reverbs? The one with the blue LED diamond? I don't think I've ever seen it before.

After calibrating my spring reverb (a process that was a lot easier than I anticipated), and a day of playing with it, I'm even more smitten than I was before. It's just so, responsive. I love the Tilt feature. It really colors the sound in beautiful ways; from dark and woody to airy and sparkly.

Thanks for the tip on toning down the LED Monobass, but I actually like it bright. I feel like I'm looking into revelation when I peer down at it.
rico loverde
built mine today. took about 1.5 hours. just wanted to give Thonk/Monobass some props for an awesome kit. Eveything was packaged and labeled so nicely. It was such a pleasure to build. The reverb itself sounds awesome, I did a tan and a brick and added a switch in place of the jumper. Works great.

Quick question for you guys reading this. I got some rca cables when i ordered my tank, they have a white jack, red jack, and another thin wire that has no connector on it which I'm assuming is for ground? the tank seems to be fine without the wire connected…am i missing something here? should it be connected? would it make the tank less noisy?

once again, many thanks to Monobass for the great kit!!!!! applause
L.C.O.
Hey Rico,
how did you end up installing the switch?
Any chance you could post some pictures how you installed it?
flocked
Could anyone please record a comparison between the a199 and this? Would be awesome smile
rico loverde
the switch was pretty straight forward. ill post pics tomorrow. theres 3 holes on the pcb
1 for tank
2 middle hole
3 for brick

i wired the middle hole to the center lug of the switch, and holes 1 and 3 to the other two lugs on the switch
L.C.O.
rico loverde wrote:
the switch was pretty straight forward. ill post pics tomorrow. theres 3 holes on the pcb
1 for tank
2 middle hole
3 for brick

i wired the middle hole to the center lug of the switch, and holes 1 and 3 to the other two lugs on the switch


Right, i was interested in how you mounted the actual switch on the panel!
:-)
rico loverde
L.C.O. wrote:
rico loverde wrote:
the switch was pretty straight forward. ill post pics tomorrow. theres 3 holes on the pcb
1 for tank
2 middle hole
3 for brick

i wired the middle hole to the center lug of the switch, and holes 1 and 3 to the other two lugs on the switch


Right, i was interested in how you mounted the actual switch on the panel!
:-)
haha sorry…i haven't gotten there yet. will do that tomorrow. i have a pretty small switch but even with that the fit might be tight. thinking also maybe a 2hp panel with some of the other mods mentioned a few pages back brought out. or maybe just doing an 8hp custom panel at some point. if i find a good spot for the switch ill post a pic…

edit: it looks like i may be able to fit just left and up from the big knob. theres just enough room between the rack rail and the pcb
davidh
337is wrote:

What's the module to the left of the Spring reverbs? The one with the blue LED diamond? I don't think I've ever seen it before.


it is my homemade vco based on René Schmitz cmos vco and a ring modulator, i shared the notes : http://www.infinitesimal.eu/synth/article44/transmission-4069-vco-am

337is wrote:

I love the Tilt feature. It really colors the sound in beautiful ways; from dark and woody to airy and sparkly.

totaly agree here, the Tilt is beautiull thumbs up
337is
Congrats on finishing your build rico loverde! :-)

flocked, if I had the a199 I'd be happy to comply, but currently I only have the Music Thing. Perhaps another wiggler will be able to help out with your demo request?

davidh wrote:
it is my homemade vco based on René Schmitz cmos vco and a ring modulator, i shared the notes : http://www.dendrobate-magnetique.org/synth/article44/transmission-4069 -vco-am


It is BEAUTIFUL to look at and the sounds, as far as I could tell deep in your mix, are lovely too. Thanks for the leads and extra information. :-)

Alright, it seems the picture upload feature is working again, so here are the last few from my build experience:

The box open and ready on the table:


Thonk kit bags spread out and iPad open to the Music Thing pdf documentation and pictures from Thonk for easy reference during the build:


The first time I've seen/held a mythical vactrol:


Perhaps 30% through the build:


Completed (backside):


Completed (frontside):


17" srping reverb tank in situ in rear right corner of my Goike case:


Awesome. Now I have a pseudo EMS set up. Anyone here familiar with how the joystick and reverb tank on the Synthi or VCS3 interact with each other? I'd appreciate a simple osc, envelope, joystick, reverb sort of patch. I have the Planar as my joystick if that matters.

Thanks again, each of you! thumbs up
sduck
The VCS3 joystick is just patchable to wherever. I can't remember if it's passive or active. What it does depends on how you've patched it.

edit: Now I remember, it's an active stick. Puts out something weird like 0-6.7v. It's easily patchable to a lot of things, so zany combinations are possible.

Nice pictures! Are you going to leave your tank upside down like that? I know they make them in an upside down configuration, but the way your springs are hanging I doubt you got that. Perhaps your just having fun with fondling your springs ala ekdahl...

337is
sduck wrote:
Nice pictures! Are you going to leave your tank upside down like that? I know they make them in an upside down configuration, but the way your springs are hanging I doubt you got that. Perhaps your just having fun with fondling your springs ala ekdahl...


Thanks! And lol, I didn't know it was upside down. I'm totally new to this spring concept. I noticed that there was a small piece of foam inside on the bottom and I wondered about the fact that the springs seemed to rest on it from time to time. I thought that might introduce odd harmonics (like what happens when a guitarist lightly bars across fret bars) but figured, "well, the designers know best." They probably thought I'd be smart enough to figure out the proper orientation. lol again. d'oh!

Thank you too for the pointers on the EMS style of joystickery. Gonna' flip the tank and play a bit.
taylor12k
my reverb still isn't working.. and i'm hoping to get some help. here's the rundown:

1. after i built the brick the in/out worked and the tilt filter worked, but no reverb. (yes, i had the jumper in the right place)

2. i installed the rear rca jacks and hooked it up to a tank to test the springs

3. nothing.

4. i started touching various components with my fingers and found when i touched some the reverb (spring) would come on at 100% but the wet/dry would still not work.

5. i can continue to do this... touch various components (it seems the half-circle shaped one (sorry, don't know all the names.. not a resistor, not a cap, not the vactrol, but the black half-circle three-pinned thing) near the LED.. if i pressed on it the reverb would come on. so i resoldered that part.

6. now it's intermitent again... spring reverb if i touch various components, but only 100% wet or 100% dry.

7. i'm not getting anything out of my brick.. unless the brick reverb is so short you can't even hear it.


any ideas???
davidh
taylor12k wrote:

5. i can continue to do this... touch various components (it seems the half-circle shaped one (sorry, don't know all the names.. not a resistor, not a cap, not the vactrol, but the black half-circle three-pinned thing) near the LED.. if i pressed on it the reverb would come on. so i resoldered that part.


this is a transistor.

probably you have a bad solder somewhere, or a short circuit. also nothing must touch the modular rails.

check all the solder points, eventually redo the solders, just to be sure they are ok, it is quick just pass over all the points with the iron solder to melt them down again.

you can check also the sens of the condensers, the bigs are polarized (little yellow or blue not), also the IC must in the good direction.
L.C.O.
davidh wrote:
taylor12k wrote:

5. i can continue to do this... touch various components (it seems the half-circle shaped one (sorry, don't know all the names.. not a resistor, not a cap, not the vactrol, but the black half-circle three-pinned thing) near the LED.. if i pressed on it the reverb would come on. so i resoldered that part.


this is a transistor.

probably you have a bad solder somewhere, or a short circuit. also nothing must touch the modular rails.

check all the solder points, eventually redo the solders, just to be sure they are ok, it is quick just pass over all the points with the iron solder to melt them down again.

you can check also the sens of the condensers, the bigs are polarized (little yellow or blue not), also the IC must in the good direction.


These are all good suggestions.
I would just get a magnifying glass, and look over all your solder joints and see for any dry or balled solder points, then re-flow them.
Rick Burnett
One question, with the jumper removed and wet/dry full wet, should I hear any of the dry signal? Looks like I see about 10% of the dry signal still present.
Tombola
Re: jumper removed / dry signal.

The one-vactrol cross fade circuit (descended from the one in the Music Easel) works pretty well when both 'inputs' are connected - if one input is floating, ie when the jumper is open, it doesn't really act like a VCA that will close completely

In short - yes, that's normal!
Rick Burnett
Tombola wrote:
Re: jumper removed / dry signal.

The one-vactrol cross fade circuit (descended from the one in the Music Easel) works pretty well when both 'inputs' are connected - if one input is floating, ie when the jumper is open, it doesn't really act like a VCA that will close completely

In short - yes, that's normal!


Hmmm, so if I have the jumper on the spring or off completely, the level coming out of the module is the same (ie, I hear the same amount of dry with it full wet).

I have the schematic so I will start tracing through and trying to figure out where my problem is. It's probably something simple I am not seeing.
Rick Burnett
Problem solved! In the spring circuit I had accidentally swapped the 22R and 22K resistors, haha. Why R and K have to look so similar. In any case, tank is working beautifully now.

The tank and brick are SO different, glad I did both.

Now to get down to designing my brick/tank mix circuit. smile
davidh
yeah Guinness ftw!
can we hear the brick somewhere ?
337is
Wow. Putting in the spring tank in my case orientated correctly (upside down from the way I had it in my picture) really changed the sound for the better. Now it's like a proper sealed tank with the wooden floor of my case acting as the fourth wall of the enclosure. Thanks for pointing that out and helping me sduck! thumbs up


davidh wrote:
can we hear the brick somewhere ?


Are you looking for something different than this? [s]http://soundcloud.com/thonksynth/music-thing-modular-spring[/s]
"This demo gives you a quick idea of the two styles of Reverb that it supports, the Digital Acuutronics Brick and a real Accutronics spring tank."
davidh
thank you 337is
oh it is not bad, may be i will get two briks a day smile
davidh
those crazy modules hihi

337is
Damn, hit after hit davidh! "I had to, like, open the bruise up, and let some of the bruise blood come out to show them"

Love it! Thanks for sharing.
337is
Man, that is a great track. I listened to it through twice. Do you have it up on soundcloud by any chance davidh? I'd love to download it. :-)
Rick Burnett
Yeah, I have to agree, that was REALLY REALLY good. Thanks for sharing that davidh.
taylor12k
transistor.. yes! thanks

but, yeah, i've been through the whole thing checking solder points (i wear like a jewelers magnifiying headset thing when i work).. but i'll keep checking and go through it again....

and report back...


davidh wrote:
taylor12k wrote:

5. i can continue to do this... touch various components (it seems the half-circle shaped one (sorry, don't know all the names.. not a resistor, not a cap, not the vactrol, but the black half-circle three-pinned thing) near the LED.. if i pressed on it the reverb would come on. so i resoldered that part.


this is a transistor.

probably you have a bad solder somewhere, or a short circuit. also nothing must touch the modular rails.

check all the solder points, eventually redo the solders, just to be sure they are ok, it is quick just pass over all the points with the iron solder to melt them down again.

you can check also the sens of the condensers, the bigs are polarized (little yellow or blue not), also the IC must in the good direction.
taylor12k
<<edit>>


figured out PART of the problem.. i have the 10k potentiometer on the BLEND control, not one of the 50k ones.. so that would likely explain the wet/dry issue..

having a hell of a time de-soldering those.. but when i do i'll test...

- - - - - - - -

<< edit edit>>>

unfortunately, putting the knobs in the right spots didn't fix anything... still 100% wet only tank and no brick.


- - - - - - - - - -

frustrating.. still can't get it to work...

i went over it a third time.. even put solder on both sides of the boards in many cases..

i still get no brick at all, and only wet tank.. no wet/dry mix

could any part be blown?

could i have put some resistor in the wrong place?

is there somewhere i should quadruple check given the above symptoms?
Rick Burnett
Desolder braid is what I used to remove parts on this, worked like a champ.
sduck
taylor12k wrote:

could any part be blown?

could i have put some resistor in the wrong place?

is there somewhere i should quadruple check given the above symptoms?


Yes. But we don't really have enough info to help - can you post pictures? Good, detailed ones? In focus and all that? There's no way of telling if a parts bad or in the wrong place or if you've just got lousy solders from what you've typed so far.
extinguish
I look forward to building one of these, I've just got a couple of questions to help me figure out whether I want the RCA connections on the front or back.

There's nothing to stop me putting anything I like in the signal path is there? Provided the right connections of course. Say adding a delay before the reverb? It would be fun to have a dry/wet controlling both.

Secondly, will there be an Aluminum Front RCA panel?

Cheers
Rick Burnett
Alright, got a chance to play around with it some more. Using a shapeshifter and PDO with a bunch of modulations. Feed into Phonogene in delay mode. Then into Reverb. It starts at 50% wet, then I shift to 0%, then 100%, 0% then 100%.

I added only a drum track (Battery 4 + Microtonic) so all other sounds are coming from the eurorack.

Something interesting I noticed. I needed to drop the Dry down 8dB to get the same relative loudness as the full wet. This is the TANK, but the BRICK does the same thing. Is there a way I can crank up the output more? (And the TANK is tuned just below distorting. Given both do it, I need to adjust this afterwards).

[s]http://soundcloud.com/rick-burnett-1/reverberer[/s]
337is
Rick Burnett, love the track. Great example of the wet versus dry ... really pronounced. applause

Rick Burnett wrote:
Something interesting I noticed. I needed to drop the Dry down 8dB to get the same relative loudness as the full wet. This is the TANK, but the BRICK does the same thing. Is there a way I can crank up the output more? (And the TANK is tuned just below distorting. Given both do it, I need to adjust this afterwards).


How did you drop the dry by 8dB? I too have noticed that it is seemingly much louder than the wet when calibrated just shy of distortion. My wife and I sat and listened to the dry/wet fully panned each way and tried to decide if the wet side was actually as loud, just not a present (more ethereal in nature) in the mix and we couldn't be 100% certain ... I suppose if I were clever I could figure out a way to more scientifically measure using my O'Tool.

One thing I have to say, the noise level of this reverb is WAY BETTER than I ever imagined it would be. I was really nervous about picking up hum and interference in my case but I've heard next to nothing. At EXTREMES there may be some in there but it adds to the character. Damn, I love this module. I've never gotten one that's immediately inspired me viscerally like this. hyper
horstronic


I finally got my kit today (and a turing machine kit as well) applause applause applause applause
337is
Yay for horstronic! Please tell me, when you're finished with both kits, if you think they're about the same difficulty level. I've been tempted to pick up a Turning Machine but have been a bit intimidated. Good luck with your builds!
horstronic
337is wrote:
Yay for horstronic! Please tell me, when you're finished with both kits, if you think they're about the same difficulty level. I've been tempted to pick up a Turning Machine but have been a bit intimidated. Good luck with your builds!


I will let you know!
But I'm pretty shure, the Turing Machine will be more difficult, it has a lot of parts.
EMwhite
337is wrote:
Yay for horstronic! Please tell me, when you're finished with both kits, if you think they're about the same difficulty level. I've been tempted to pick up a Turning Machine but have been a bit intimidated. Good luck with your builds!


Turing machine is very documented, however has a larger number of components and especially ICs. The good news is that they are all socketed so no risk there.

No lead forming as required for a neat install of the Vactrol on the Spring, but there are a few tricky bits to contend with, nothing terrible.

- LED array should be mounted 'high' in order to be closer to your panel and you don't want to get it too hot!
- two of the ICs (when I built mine) were a bit too close from a tolerance perspective which only means that you need to carefully align them when inserting ICs; this may have been addressed

I built the Pulses add-on also which was actually very simple and straight forward, may have taken 20 minutes additional including the panel hardware. I don't have any experience with the Voltages but I'm sure it's well put together/documented and the only 'new' skill required has to do withe the pot sliders.

All in all, these are among the best DIY projects that I've done; most satisfying, short built time, well documented and packaged by Thonk. Double- thumbs up ; have a look at the doc then go for it!
337is
Thanks for the encouragement, perspective, and information EMwhite. I appreciate it. I see a build of these in my near future. :-)
woodster
337is,

Looking at your Spring pics, it's seems like a tidy build you did there.
I reckon you'll be fine with the Turing, just off what you've learned from doing the Spring.
337is
woodster, your comment will thrill the missus. She was so proud of our work that she could hardly sleep the night after our build was complete. In the morning her enthusiasm was even more palpable. I asked her if she was up for more builds and she said "BRING 'EM!" God I love her.

Your words mean a lot to me. Thanks so much! thumbs up
L.C.O.
for some reason i think Turing Machine was actually an easier build.
maybe it's the detailed step-by-step documentation that takes a bit of guessing out of the process.
If you built the SPRINg you will cetainly be tottally fine building Turing Machine.
the IC socket being too tight is a good point: i noticed that in my build as well. So knowing that ahead will make it possible to make some adjustments, and it should not be a problem.
Good luck, @337is !
Rick Burnett
337is wrote:
Rick Burnett, love the track. Great example of the wet versus dry ... really pronounced. applause

How did you drop the dry by 8dB? I too have noticed that it is seemingly much louder than the wet when calibrated just shy of distortion. My wife and I sat and listened to the dry/wet fully panned each way and tried to decide if the wet side was actually as loud, just not a present (more ethereal in nature) in the mix and we couldn't be 100% certain ... I suppose if I were clever I could figure out a way to more scientifically measure using my O'Tool.

One thing I have to say, the noise level of this reverb is WAY BETTER than I ever imagined it would be. I was really nervous about picking up hum and interference in my case but I've heard next to nothing. At EXTREMES there may be some in there but it adds to the character. Damn, I love this module. I've never gotten one that's immediately inspired me viscerally like this. hyper


Thanks! Yeah, I have the agree, the noise floor is REALLY low, amazing job on that.

I brought the material into a DAW and just cut at the transition and dropped 8dB on the dry part. I gauged the change based on what the levels were telling me and my ears.

Looking at the schematic seeing what I could do.
337is
Thanks for the additional insight on the Turing build L.C.O., I appreciate it. :-)

Thanks too Rick Burnett on the DAW details ... I thought you might have worked out a super nifty eurorack trick. applause
taylor12k
here are some pics. excuse the lame soldering which has been made worse by touch-ups and pulling components out and back in. i can happily say, though, every module i've built has worked! except this one...






sduck wrote:
taylor12k wrote:

could any part be blown?

could i have put some resistor in the wrong place?

is there somewhere i should quadruple check given the above symptoms?


Yes. But we don't really have enough info to help - can you post pictures? Good, detailed ones? In focus and all that? There's no way of telling if a parts bad or in the wrong place or if you've just got lousy solders from what you've typed so far.




woodster
Do you have a picture of the underside of the board by the Vactrol?
Some of the pins on the knobs look a little bit fruity, and some pins look to not be soldered, but it's hard to see from the top photo's.
Rick Burnett
337is wrote:
Thanks for the additional insight on the Turing build L.C.O., I appreciate it. :-)

Thanks too Rick Burnett on the DAW details ... I thought you might have worked out a super nifty eurorack trick. applause


If I was going to do this eurorack only, I think what I'd do is set the reverb to full wet, then route the input to the spring and to one side of my WMD VCA. The other side I'd bring in the full wet output into the VCA. Then I'd take both outputs of that and feed them into my mutamix. I'd set the VCA up so a control voltage will set the amount of wet/dry by controlling the channels inversely.

At least, that is where I would start. smile
Rick Burnett
So looking at the schematic, it looks like I would need to adjust R6 (increase) from 22k to drive stronger out of the spring recover circuit.

I'm imagining the same is true of R24 (68k) on the brick circuit possibly?

I guess some experimentation is in order. I should just socket these so I can test values easier.

What do other people do when they want to change in and out resistors?
taylor12k
here are some back side pics. i solder the backside. sometimes the solder doesn't get wicked up to the front. but that's never been a problem for me on any other build. on this one i actually went to the front and also soldered the front on some of them that looked too empty.

(damn, i think they're a bit blurry)





woodster wrote:
Do you have a picture of the underside of the board by the Vactrol?
Some of the pins on the knobs look a little bit fruity, and some pins look to not be soldered, but it's hard to see from the top photo's.



radiokoala
taylor12k wrote:


Personally, (or from this pic) it looks to me like that either some IC socket legs aren't soldered or some of them are soldered very poorly. You shouldn't be able to see legs themselves, the solder joint must look like a blob. I'd pay attention to these first...my opinion.
Monobass
Yeah I'd say go over the joints again... you might want to consider getting a better iron or a new tip...

Also you know the jumper is in the wrong place for the brick right?
taylor12k
thanks.. yeah, i'll go over some of these parts again, tho i think in the light they look a bit worse than they really are... but i agree about seeing the legs..

(and yes, as i've said, i'm aware of the jumper, it's in spring mode becuase the last i tested it was with the spring)

Monobass wrote:
Yeah I'd say go over the joints again... you might want to consider getting a better iron or a new tip...

Also you know the jumper is in the wrong place for the brick right?
Monobass
Rick Burnett wrote:
What do other people do when they want to change in and out resistors?


solder in a pot into the resistor position and tweak until it sounds the way you want it. I don't have the schematic in front of me, but if those resistors aren't in parallel with anything else you can measure the resistance in-circuit.. but if you're not sure then once the values are right de-solder the pots without disturbing the shaft and then measure the resistance across the pot.
Rick Burnett
Monobass wrote:
Rick Burnett wrote:
What do other people do when they want to change in and out resistors?


solder in a pot into the resistor position and tweak until it sounds the way you want it. I don't have the schematic in front of me, but if those resistors aren't in parallel with anything else you can measure the resistance in-circuit.. but if you're not sure the once the values are right de-solder the pots with disturbing the shaft and then measure the resistance across the pot.


Okay, that's what I was going to do, just wanted to make sure there wasn't some other way I wasn't considering. Thanks!
sduck
Taylor, check your standing up resistors - the leads of 2 of these are touching - at least it looks that way in the pics. I wouldn't worry about the socket solders, they look fine to me - they don't actually need to be completely covered in solder as has been suggested. There are a few other solders that look suspicious, like they might be cold solders and or have solder bridges. In general it looks like not enough heat and too much solder. And possibly the wrong kind - a LOT of flux is still on there - hope its not water soluble flux!

Do you have a DMM? Or something that can act as a continuity tester? There's not a lot of components on this thing, you can test for proper continuity and/or shorts pretty easily. Just go over all your components, make sure there is continuity where there is supposed to be, and no shorts to nearby parts that aren't supposed to be connected.
woodster
sduck has the eye's of a nananinja nanners
woodster
337is wrote:
woodster, your comment will thrill the missus. She was so proud of our work that she could hardly sleep the night after our build was complete. In the morning her enthusiasm was even more palpable. I asked her if she was up for more builds and she said "BRING 'EM!" God I love her.

Your words mean a lot to me. Thanks so much! thumbs up


Hey, my pleasure.
Just saying it as I see it, so well done to you and yours for starting in such style.
I got off to a good start, which most certainly helped keep the wind in the sails with my DIY.
Turing Machine (plus expanders) is great, I like using it (them) at audio rates, as much as a seq.
If you do ever order one, while your at it you really should grab a Manhattan Audio CVP kit if they are in stock (and you have the cash).
IMHO it's a truly fantastic utility module, and also a very well documented Thonk build.
taylor12k
weird, what happened to my post? it never showed up

if i remember what i said:

- yeah, the resistors were touching. i moved them away from each other. unfortunately it didn't change anything

- solder is rosin core 60/40. iron is a decent one. i have set to 750 degrees. should it be hotter?

- don't have any component testing equipment.. no..

getting pretty frustrated with this. may junk it in a box and build the other one. (i bought 2 kits) to see if i have better luck.



sduck wrote:
Taylor, check your standing up resistors - the leads of 2 of these are touching - at least it looks that way in the pics. I wouldn't worry about the socket solders, they look fine to me - they don't actually need to be completely covered in solder as has been suggested. There are a few other solders that look suspicious, like they might be cold solders and or have solder bridges. In general it looks like not enough heat and too much solder. And possibly the wrong kind - a LOT of flux is still on there - hope its not water soluble flux!

Do you have a DMM? Or something that can act as a continuity tester? There's not a lot of components on this thing, you can test for proper continuity and/or shorts pretty easily. Just go over all your components, make sure there is continuity where there is supposed to be, and no shorts to nearby parts that aren't supposed to be connected.
woodster
...
woodster
750 woah

I went by Ray Wilsons advice and stuck between 320c (608f) and 380c (716f) to start with.

Wouldn't the higher temperatures destroy the rosin in the solder, preventing a decent flow ?
horstronic
woodster wrote:
750 woah

I went by Ray Wilsons advice and stuck between 320c (608f) and 380c (716f) to start with.

Wouldn't the higher temperatures destroy the rosin in the solder, preventing a decent flow ?


Yeah, that's definetely too hot!
Maybe you destroyed the transistor?
horstronic
By the way, I just finished mine and it sounds AWESOME!


(How can I turn that picture??)

The knobs are not the final ones, just had these lying around...
Thanks for this very great kit! Took me about 2-3 hours and it was fun and pretty easy to build! You guys rock!

Next will be the Turing Machine, I hope I will have the time to finish it before christmas.
woodster
taylor12k wrote:


getting pretty frustrated with this. may junk it in a box and build the other one. (i bought 2 kits) to see if i have better luck.


Please, Don't give up on it.
Get a cheap DMM if you can, do a bit of re-flowing at a cooler temp.
As Horstronic says, the Trannies might be baked, but that's an easy fix with some patience and desoldering braid.
It WILL work if you want it too...
Monobass
You should wait for the build document in the next few days Taylor, just in case. But really I'd advise investing in a new iron and a decent pair of diagonal cutters/snips or maybe practice on some of the cheaper kits you can get from RadioShack or the like until you're getting the kind of joints in this video

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I_NU2ruzyc4

If youre doing what it suggests and not visually getting those nice shiny conical joints on both sides of the board then you need to rethink your tools.
woodster
Yes, Snips.
In the pictures that brick does look lodged at a funny angle, with resistor leads protruding here and there.
taylor12k
if the transistors are dead... what do i do? just source a couple more?

is there a part number on those?

woodster wrote:
taylor12k wrote:


getting pretty frustrated with this. may junk it in a box and build the other one. (i bought 2 kits) to see if i have better luck.


Please, Don't give up on it.
Get a cheap DMM if you can, do a bit of re-flowing at a cooler temp.
As Horstronic says, the Trannies might be baked, but that's an easy fix with some patience and desoldering braid.
It WILL work if you want it too...
carynrich
Besides lowering the temp to 700, i would also suggest using 63/37 instead of 60/40. Apparently less cold joints due to a lack of a semi-solid state when it cools.
radiokoala
If you guys decide to solder at 700-750 it's your choice but don't get surprised when you destroy your expensive components....
carynrich wrote:
Besides lowering the temp to 700, i would also suggest using 63/37 instead of 60/40. Apparently less cold joints due to a lack of a semi-solid state when it cools.

Besides seriously taking this advice, I would also suggest reading data sheets first:

When hand soldering, it is important to limit the maximum temperature of the iron by controlling the power. It is best if a 15W or 25W iron is used. The maximum recommended lead soldering temperature (1/16" from the case for 5 seconds) is 260°C. An RMA rosin core solder is recommended.
Sn60 (60% tin / 40% lead) solder is recommended for wave soldering opto components into printed circuit boards. Other alternatives are Sn62 and Sn63. The maximum recommended soldering temperature is 260°C with a maximum duration of 5 seconds
mechie
Well, I currently use a 50W iron at 350C (662F) and rosin core 60/40 solder.
Never cleaned any flux off a board and have never had a problem!

There will be something fixable so don't quit yet - if you can get a test meter it will prove invaluable in due course.
Build the second kit and use it to compare voltages with this faulty one - it's a good way to locate a fault.
carynrich
Thats 500 degrees F! Haven't had much luck melting solder at that temp, and i've built over 120 MOTM modules.

Re, expensive components. Thats what sockets are for hihi
radiokoala
260ºC is not enough yes, but 350-380 is. And the higher the temperature is, the lesser time it takes to destroy the part.
mechie
radiokoala wrote:
And the higher the temperature is, the lesser time it takes to destroy the part.

I would say this is half-true!
If you need to dwell on a joint because there is only just enough heat that heat will have longer to conduct up the component's leg and damage it. If you have plenty (without going silly) of heat you can heat the PCB track much quicker, make the solder flow quicker and get out of there before the component realises what's happening Soapbox
mechie
taylor12k wrote:
6. now it's intermitent again... spring reverb if i touch various components, but only 100% wet or 100% dry.

7. i'm not getting anything out of my brick.. unless the brick reverb is so short you can't even hear it.


I just thought...
Near the brick, opposite side of PCB there is a 5v regulator, a 78L05, this is identical to the 2n3905 transistor.
READ the tiny text printed on both of these components and confirm they are not swapped one for the other.

IF the above is correct...
You say the spring is "100% wet or 100% dry" - what is the front panel LED doing? does it show 100% on and 100% off to match the 100% wet and 100% dry? I assume it will be, but just to be sure.
fluxmonkey
fracking: BAD. frac rack: GOOD.

here's a frac format panel for ya'll. i moved the LED so as not to interfere w/ the swoosh graphic, so that will have to be offset. other than that i'm pretty confident in the layout, but will confirm in a week or so when i get the panel. obviously you can edit to suit your tastes...
337is
Not trying to be funny, I honestly don't know.

radiokoala wrote:
I would also suggest reading data sheets first:


Where does one find these sheets? What temperature was the one question we had during our build and we couldn't seem to find the answer in any of the documentation. It's possible we missed seeing it, but we spent several minutes looking for it. Eventually I turned to the web and did a general search for "how hot should I solder for PCB work" and came back with quite a few suggestions ... but almost all of them were for over 700F. This made us nervous so we went our at 730F.

carynrich wrote:
Besides lowering the temp to 700, i would also suggest using 63/37 instead of 60/40. Apparently less cold joints due to a lack of a semi-solid state when it cools.


Thanks for this tip. I used 60/40 on this build, and with my tip as hot as it was I found that my solder behaved poorly at times ... pooling up the leg of the joint and balling off onto the tip. I'm going to order a roll of 63/37.
337is
Rick Burnett wrote:
At least, that is where I would start. smile


It's funny how these starting points morph into the strangest places ... ;-)
337is
woodster wrote:
Turing Machine (plus expanders) is great, I like using it (them) at audio rates, as much as a seq.
If you do ever order one, while your at it you really should grab a Manhattan Audio CVP kit if they are in stock (and you have the cash).
IMHO it's a truly fantastic utility module, and also a very well documented Thonk build.


Running at audio does sound like a lot of fun, thanks for the encouragement.

A few Manhattan Audio kits are on my radar. The CVP like you mentioned, and his MIX. I could use many more utilities like these scattered in my case. I also want to build a few of Thonk's At-At-Ats.
337is
Congrats horstronic! Looks like a beauty.
radiokoala
337is wrote:
Not trying to be funny, I honestly don't know.

radiokoala wrote:
I would also suggest reading data sheets first:


Where does one find these sheets? What temperature was the one question we had during our build and we couldn't seem to find the answer in any of the documentation. It's possible we missed seeing it, but we spent several minutes looking for it. Eventually I turned to the web and did a general search for "how hot should I solder for PCB work" and came back with quite a few suggestions ... but almost all of them were for over 700F. This made us nervous so we went our at 730F.

Just type "<name of the part> datasheet" in google and you'll have luck finding it in close to 100% cases. thumbs up

General tip is diodes & LEDs are more sensitive, some switches too. In regard to soldering temp, 350 C should be fine for almost everything. You can solder at high temperatures without damaging anything succesfully too, the rule is not to hold the soldering iron tip for too long at the leg. If you didn't manage to solder a good joint in ~3 seconds, then try again after a short while instead of trying to do it in one go. If you adhere to this recommendation, you should be safe I assume. 8_)
Rick Burnett
337is wrote:
Rick Burnett wrote:
At least, that is where I would start. smile


It's funny how these starting points morph into the strangest places ... ;-)


That's the absolute truth! I'm conceptualizing my expander and have already over designed it, then made it simple, then over designed it. Haha smile
Monobass
337is wrote:
Not trying to be funny, I honestly don't know.

radiokoala wrote:
I would also suggest reading data sheets first:


Where does one find these sheets?


I'm not following the music thing Mouser BOM religiously, but for all the bits that really matter with regard to temp or fragility I am, so all the datasheets can be found here:

http://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=53fa6 27747

As a general rule of thumb though, if you're getting good looking shiny joints on both sides of the PCB and you're doing it *quickly* and tidily, you're not covering the board in gooey flux or even blackened stuff.... then you're probably in a good place.

If you have to dwell on stuff or keep revisiting joints then there is definitely something not going right.
337is
Having watched this series: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL926EC0F1F93C1837

I was terrified to leave my soldering tip on components for longer than two seconds. I think this led to the solder not pooling adequately on some of the deeper solder points. That, and the scale of this kit is smaller than I'm used to working with so I couldn't always be certain that my fillets were formed as they should be. As the build progressed, I realized that I needed to keep the tip on longer than I naturally wanted to. Once I got comfortable with the heat, action, and flow, I found a comfortable working rhythm.
337is
radiokoala wrote:
Just type "<name of the part> datasheet" in google and you'll have luck finding it in close to 100% cases


Ah, that makes sense. And from this do I correctly infer that some parts/components have different requirements? Like transistors my like one temp while resistors like a different temp? I used a really fine pointed soldering tip for this build, and there were a few times, like when soldering the pots and the knobs, that I wished I had stopped and swapped out the tip for my chisel tip. The holes to fill with solder were much wider and deeper and the legs of the component were equally larger. I felt like my little conical tip couldn't heat up enough of the pad and leg at the same time. Live and learn. thumbs up
sduck
While I generally applaud anal attentiveness to details, I think there's a bit of overthinking going on about soldering here. For the record, I use a cheapo 35w Weller iron, with no temperature control, no base, just a plug, with the standard fine screwdriver tips (ST1). And I've built hundreds of modules with this, and most of them have worked perfectly at first power up. I am a bit anal about solder - I use Kester 331 water cleanable organic flux solder for most of the pcb parts, and Kester 245 no-clean for everything else. Care and cleaning of the soldering tip, and proper soldering technigues - this is where I get anal, and could write a book. But don't want to derail this thread further.

Just made a video which features my new dual reverb - starts out fairly dry, but gets wetter as things proceed. And I switch between the tanks and the bricks a lot, although it's sometimes hard to tell which is which -

edited to switch to the newer stereo version -

337is
Sweet work sduck! The tanks sound great. At time your piece reminded me of Darius Milhaud in a very favorable way. :-)
horstronic
337is I finished the Turing Machine today (couldn't wait Mr. Green)
Surprisingly it took me just about the same time as the reverb! And as it is far mor documented (at the moment), it even was easier.
But I think if something goes wrong, you will spend more time debugging the Turing Machine because there are more parts.

These two modules work together pretty well!
Saw Wave -> Bandpass Filter with high resonance -> LPG controlled by Clock -> Reverb; Cutoff and VCO CV controlled by Turing Machine = Rockin' Banana! nanners Rockin' Banana! nanners
337is
Man, that sounds like the new hotness right there horstronic. Congrats on the smooth build. Eager to hear some sounds. :-)

A few people have mentioned debugging, checking resistances, etc. I have a digital multi-meter but really have no clue how I would use it if something like the spring reverb build went wrong. If anyone can point me to a good video or webpage covering the basics of troubleshooting circuits (of the sort I'm likely to run into when building modular gear) I'd be ever so grateful.
fluxmonkey
are we still talking abt the spring reverb?
337is
fluxmonkey wrote:
are we still talking abt the spring reverb?


Most definitely. Especially curious how to successfully troubleshoot a problem in the building of one. Our friend Taylor is still without his complete and others have been super helpful in suggesting troubleshooting techniques. Fortunately my build went well, but I realize I could just as easily be where he is now and thought I'd enquire for further details on specific related to the troubleshooting steps as others had mentioned as I lack the experience of others who can offer more comprehensive help to a fellow wiggler in need. thumbs up
oootini
troubleshooting:

1 check continuity with a multimeter between points. no continuity = cold/bad joint.

2 ensure all component values are correct.

3 ensure orientation of polarized components is correct.

that's it really. invest in a nice multimeter that has a beep for continuity testing. it is as essential as an iron. you're just giving yourself ball ache trying to figure out a build problem without one. search for a vc97 multimeter on eBay. good accurate, and doubles as a really accurate frequency tester for tuning oscs. 20 quid.
nigel
My Reverb kit arrived a couple of days ago, but my wife immediately stole it so that she could give it to me as a Christmas present. So I'll be building mine in about a week.
Rick Burnett
oootini wrote:
troubleshooting:

1 check continuity with a multimeter between points. no continuity = cold/bad joint.

2 ensure all component values are correct.

3 ensure orientation of polarized components is correct.

that's it really. invest in a nice multimeter that has a beep for continuity testing. it is as essential as an iron. you're just giving yourself ball ache trying to figure out a build problem without one. search for a vc97 multimeter on eBay. good accurate, and doubles as a really accurate frequency tester for tuning oscs. 20 quid.


Yep, I pretty much use my DMM to test for continuity. Or, if I am being lazy, resistor values. smile Other than that, I use a scope to check if I am getting signal where I expect and all that.
Poldenstein
I recently faced my first (and successful) troubleshooting.
Other than what's been said, I had been suggested to do signal tracing: that is get hold of an oscilloscope and trace the signal starting from an input and moving on component by component, following the diagram. When signal disappears you have most likely spotted a faulty component. That is how I hit one cap and three (yes three, all in a single kit very frustrating) broken ICs..
And just not to go completely OT, this reverb is so sexy.. I'll get one sooner than later.
Monobass
post like that are never OT anywhere in the DIY forum wink
sync24
just finished a quick build of this smile
what a top kit!!!
even without the build-doc it's no real mission.
Thanks both for sorting this out, it's just what my system needed.

it pairs well with the Serge Res EQ i built last week (thanks Monobass and ALM), and sits happily in the boat/skiff proto from Microscopial.

thumbs up




(added a little slotty/header thing here in case i want to swap for the shorter delay brick...)
daluxer
Just recieved my kit.
I ordered the brick at Banzai(based in Germany) and the Spring Reverb Kit on the same day, but recieved the Kit earlier! awesome :-)

Now let's build this.. confused
Monobass
daluxer wrote:
Just recieved my kit.
I ordered the brick at Banzai(based in Germany) and the Spring Reverb Kit on the same day, but recieved the Kit earlier! awesome :-)

Now let's build this.. confused


yeah it took me a long time to catch up with shipping everything, and this week I did... your order was shipped in the timely fashion I normally like to achieve wink

But the postal system in the world is pretty messed up right now due to Xmas. I had one parcel arrive in the US quicker than a parcel to Wales which was shipped last week...
en.
received, built, played & had fun
props to tom and steve!
rock on!
croute
Nice kit,Thonk's the best nanners ,fast and serious ,nice tracking awesome dealer!
Nantonos
My kit arrived today. All looks good.
daluxer
removed
daluxer


Build also done. Half sucessfully - led lights up.

Now I'm sittin here, waiting on my brick..

applause


aaand no, i did not sit 8 hours on this wink
Jonachi
Just built my first, took me about 3hours. Don't know if it works until tomorrow. Great kit though! Thanks Thonk!
Jonachi
Reverb part doesnt work, everything seems fine. Tried both tank and spring.

Light is constantly on
Trim pot doesnt seem to do anything
X-fader and in &outs all seem to work ok

Any ideas?
radiokoala
Uploaded a new image to modulargrid!

Credits: horstronic - photo, radiokoala - photoshop spinning

razz
Monobass
Jonachi - which front panel do you have?

have you put the little plastic shunt on the header to select brick or tank?
snufkin
finished mine yesterday took about 40min/hour at work hihi
very lovely easy build !

still have to tweak it for the non-standard tank I am using for test purposes as it still sounds a lil distorted

ordered a brick too so I can go switchable too :3
Jonachi
Monobass wrote:
Jonachi - which front panel do you have?

have you put the little plastic shunt on the header to select brick or tank?


Rca in front on panel. Yes, the rubber thing is on the two pins within the lines that say brick.
woodster
Jonachi wrote:
Yes, the rubber thong is on


Wrong Forum...

Sorry couldn't resist (hides)
Jonachi
haha, damn phone! =)
Jonachi
Jonachi wrote:
Reverb part doesnt work, everything seems fine. Tried both tank and spring.

Light is constantly on
Trim pot doesnt seem to do anything
X-fader and in &outs all seem to work ok

Any ideas?


Anyone?
Jonachi
mechie wrote:


I just thought...
Near the brick, opposite side of PCB there is a 5v regulator, a 78L05, this is identical to the 2n3905 transistor.
READ the tiny text printed on both of these components and confirm they are not swapped one for the other.


I never paid any attention to the transsistors, most likely this is causing my problem. Thanks! Will check tomorrow!
sduck
If you switched those, it would definitely cause your symptoms. I think. Except I don't think the X-fader would work...
Monobass
I'm going to be fairly incommunicado til after Xmas now, apart from posting the Spring build doc on Monday.

Aluminium panels arrived today, they look great.

Tombola
Yes, that would do it.

On my first prototype PCB I had the pinout for the voltage regulator wrong = magic smoke
Bakeneko
I was going to attack this Sunday , but it makes sense to wait until Monday for the build documentation.
Jonachi
sduck wrote:
If you switched those, it would definitely cause your symptoms. I think. Except I don't think the X-fader would work...


Not really sure that the X-fade did work as aspected when I think about it. It did somthing (!) but my focus was on the reverb part.

Switched the transistors now. Desoldering on this full pupulated board was a nightmare though and both transistors broke (and created a mess, some burnt plastic and bad smell). I have a second kit so I stole new transistors from there, will order more soon. Now off the studio to see if it works (hopefully I didn't too much damage to the board).

Thanks for your kind help!
horstronic
Monobass wrote:
I'm going to be fairly incommunicado til after Xmas now, apart from posting the Spring build doc on Monday.

Aluminium panels arrived today, they look great.



Nice! I think I'm gonna do an upgrade for mine applause
Jonachi
Mine works now!! Great with both spring and brick. Brick distorts a bit when sending hot signal, spring does not. Thanks everyone and merry x-mas!! hihi
Monobass
So it was the transistor and voltage regulator that were swapped?
Jonachi
Indeed, damn stupid mistake. very frustrating
Monobass
Yeah but we've all done things like that hihi

So was anything damaged or replaced, or you simply swapped them over now and its fine?
Jonachi
both transistors lost their legs in the process, took new ones from kit #2 and ordered some new ones. Also broke all legs on the brick trying to get it out of the way while desoldering, soldered them back on. No biggie. Should have waited for the build documents though. Lessond learned.
Monobass
Oh sorry yeah I forgot you wrote that.
Karl_Joseph
Can I order just he aluminum panel with the front panel RCA connections? Can you recommend what kind of RCA connections I should buy for this? I recall it required special RCA connectors? Will you sell me the special RCA connectors with the aluminum front panel? I already have the kit. Thanks
Monobass
The aluminium panel pictured is for the rear connections only. It's more complicated with the front RCAs as they have to be isolated from each other and it's still something i'm looking into as it's a real squeeze. It'll happen eventually but I'd advise going with the PCB material panel... unless you're happy to wait for a period of time I'm currently defining as 'X' hihi

I'm supposed to be on holiday / my wife's going to kill me etc.
jgb
Build of first (out of two) modules finished! But wait, no reverb sound? Hmm...

Some hours later of troubleshooting, and the culprit was found. Broken TL072 on the reverb board, the one recieving audio from the spring brick. Changed the TL072, and everything works fine!

One question though, I find the output level for the brick quite low (using a BTDR-2H, long reverb time). Can this be improved? Changing R24 (68K) to a lower value?

As for modification purposes, why not stereo output from the brick? Seems like it has two outputs, and the suggested circuit in the datasheet suggests that stereo out is quite simple.
Monobass
jgb wrote:
As for modification purposes, why not stereo output from the brick? Seems like it has two outputs, and the suggested circuit in the datasheet suggests that stereo out is quite simple.


Yep no reason why not, would be pretty straightforward by the look of it.
jgb
One problem found. I cannot get 100% reverb signal, the original signal is always mixed in a bit. Killed the reverb input to the dry/wet control with a cable to the X-FADE input, and even at max wet signal I get quite a bit of the original signal.

Suggestions?
jgb
Rick Burnett wrote:
So looking at the schematic, it looks like I would need to adjust R6 (increase) from 22k to drive stronger out of the spring recover circuit.

I'm imagining the same is true of R24 (68k) on the brick circuit possibly?


Have you had time to experiment with this yet? I feel that the level from the brick is quite low, and would like to increase the level.
Tombola
jgb wrote:


As for modification purposes, why not stereo output from the brick? Seems like it has two outputs, and the suggested circuit in the datasheet suggests that stereo out is quite simple.


The stereo output from the brick is quite nice, reminded me of a old BBD delay dynacord reverb I used to have.

However, this circuit - with the vactrol wet/dry - would be trickier to make stereo - you'd need to add a second circuit and some trimming to make sure the two sides balance. Certainly possible, but I didn't want to build it into this module. I'd probably also want to do something nice with cv-able panning

It would be a super easy circuit to design a non-CV mono-to-stereo reverb using the brick and a dual potentiometer for the blend. I think Fonik did that already?
radiokoala
If somebody wants stereo output, here's what you do:

- solder header to the pcb
- take a thin wire and strip its ends
- find the pinout of a chip to know where stereo output(s) are
- before inserting the chip insert wire to the corresponding socket on header
- solder that wire to the signal on a jack (don't forget about grounding connection - find GND either at busboard or module)

Ready now - you have an additional output! SlayerBadger!

I just did it with another module today, works flawless...I find it to be very nice way of making expanders without losing warranty - just study the module schematics (if there is) or experiment and try to connect to outputs of your chips - it may well be something interesting but that didn't make it to the front panel in final revision...like just a few hours ago I added a triangle output to my 258c VCO!!! Rockin' Banana! Rockin' Banana! Rockin' Banana!
fluxmonkey
has anybody compared the 2 stereo output signals? what's the difference?
Tombola
fluxmonkey wrote:
has anybody compared the 2 stereo output signals? what's the difference?


It's quite nice - not just an inverted out or something - I think the reverb is created with lots of little delays from (apparently) the SMD PT2399 chips inside the brick. It sounds like the stereo mode sends half the taps one way, half the taps the other. Mono mode sums them together.

Neunbauer's patent for the original brick explains how it works (not specifically the stereo version) http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US8204240
jgb
Tombola wrote:

However, this circuit - with the vactrol wet/dry - would be trickier to make stereo - you'd need to add a second circuit and some trimming to make sure the two sides balance. Certainly possible, but I didn't want to build it into this module. I'd probably also want to do something nice with cv-able panning

It would be a super easy circuit to design a non-CV mono-to-stereo reverb using the brick and a dual potentiometer for the blend. I think Fonik did that already?


I was thinking of something along the lines of the circuit on page three in this PDF: http://www.uk-electronic.de/PDF/Belton%20BTDR-2.pdf The part after the brick.

Nothing fancy, just a stereo out that I can connect straight to my main mixer. smile

I really liked the sound of the brick in the module, if I only could get rid of the bleed from the dry sound and get 100% wet.
radiokoala
jgb wrote:
I really liked the sound of the brick in the module, if I only could get rid of the bleed from the dry sound and get 100% wet.

With a vactrol you unlikely could. I think all vactrols bleed...just the way they are.

BTW, fun part about PT2399 Tom - now I will have a PT2399 delay and a PT2399 reverb! It's peanut butter jelly time!
sduck
jgb wrote:
One problem found. I cannot get 100% reverb signal, the original signal is always mixed in a bit. Killed the reverb input to the dry/wet control with a cable to the X-FADE input, and even at max wet signal I get quite a bit of the original signal.

Suggestions?


That's just a part of the design - the vacrol based x-fader is a bit of a compromise design. You can increase the voltage going to the vactrol led by decreasing R11's value, this will cause the leds to burn brighter and cut off the signal more, you can even make R11 a wire and it will cut off the original signal completely. But doing this makes the reverb signal come up really suddenly when turning the mix knob - you lose all subtlety in the amount of mix that you get.

I experimented a bit with this, and found that for actual use I preferred it with the stock R11 value - I don't mind having a bit of original signal going, even with the mix all the way up. Generally I don't have the mix full up anyway.

What I did was bring out the completely wet out to the front panel via a unity gain buffer amp, as described earlier in the thread. So if you want the full wet signal, it's there.

BTW if you checked out my demo video of this (on page 48 or follow the like in my sig), you'll note that although the brick is a bit less full sounding as my springs, otherwise they're about the same volume in output. Your big difference may just be the way they're calibrated or something?
Monobass
Thonk kit build document is up

http://thonk.co.uk/documents/springreverb/
jgb
sduck: Thanks for a detailed and informative answer!

I think I will have to record some sound examples to see if someone else has the same bleed and low level of the reverb sound. If the reverb sound had been on the same level as the dry sound, the bleed would barely have been audible, but now the dry signal is actually louder than the reverb from the brick. Even with the mix pot set to full wet.
Monobass
jgb I recommend checking these two sections of the build manual, these can contribute to harmless short circuits that can have exactly the effect you're describing.

Section 14 - on page 7 - Modifying Jacks

Section 35 - on pages 16 & 17 - Isolating Front panel RCAs

http://thonk.co.uk/documents/springreverb
radiokoala
Hey Steve, at page 11 you have in three places written resistors instead of capacitors. Not the biggest of the deals, but I thought I'll let you know. Guinness ftw!

Upd. Another thing, I think it could be helpful if you wrote number codes (that are on a body of a capacitor) next to capacitors ratings. Props for a detailed build instruction, it's good as is, but I think my proposal isn't overkill anyway, as capacitors look all the same and it's easier to make a mistake than even with resistors...for beginners this info should be helpful!

Upd.2 Page 12 - "2N3904 voltage regulator" instead of "2N3904 transistor". You're welcome 8_)
Monobass
Ah thanks for the resistor thing.

I bag all the capacitors seperately and where there's a chance of confusion I do indeed write the number codes on the bags.
Jonachi
Monobass wrote:
Thonk kit build document is up

http://thonk.co.uk/documents/springreverb/


Thanks! These looks great. Will use them for my second build, will surely spare me some time and frustration! w00t
fluxmonkey
Monobass wrote:
Thonk kit build document is up

http://thonk.co.uk/documents/springreverb/


one of the most complete build docs i've seen, very helpful... great job!
Monobass
Lots of loose panels will come in stock in January

White PCB Material - Front and Rear RCAs
Black PCB Material - Front and Rear RCAs - New!
Aluminium Panel - Rear RCAs
skullservant
Wowwwww, I'm totally going to build this up. I've been looking for a nice spring reverb and this looks most excellent!!
tholos
I think my package from small bear with the brick was stolen off my porch waah

Has anybody found a good place to mount a switch?
Nantonos
tholos wrote:
Has anybody found a good place to mount a switch?


People with patience will get the expansion module, and those of us without are using the front-panel RCA option to get two mis-labelled front panel holes for a spring/brick switch and a 100% wet out (optionally with unsightly veroboard op-amp bufffer hanging off the back).

With the spring connection via an internally mounted spring, or else re-using the supplied jack sockets for a case-mounted pair of connectors. (Easy with wooden cases, needs care for metal cazses as the grounds on the two connectors musy not make contact with each other or case ground).
Nantonos
[i]um, forum syntax broken today?[/i]
Monobass
Yeah syntax seems to be [b]dead[/b]
SpunRaddish
Anyone know what to do if a piece of trace came off the power pins? My -15v is shorting to ground, and I think that is the reason. I've taken all solder off to find a small chip that exposed some of the copper underneath. Any other place I can attach power, or a way to cut this section off while still conditioning the power? It first worked and then it began to short after a few test runs, a while after changing R6 from 22k to 47k.
SpunRaddish
I took care of it using some section of the brick side which I haven't wired up, I just started the connection two pads later and severed any connection to the shorted pad. The reverb works, though still a bit quiet, or I have to lower the audio significantly, or if I'm running it hotter, I can hear the signal in the verb itself... Unfortunately, the LED stays lit, and the wet/dry knob does nothing. Any particular op-amp associated with the LED, or is that particularly the 3904?

Happy holidays, and thanks for any help!
Stab Frenzy
My two came together really quickly and easily, only thing I've noticed is that they tend to clip at a fairly low level. Maybe it's just because I'm using them on the output and I tend to push things pretty hard in my system, but I haven't had any similar problems with any other modules I've used in a similar position. Anyone else noticed this on theirs?

edit: I'm talking clipping on the dry signal, not just the wet. Wet is adjusted for no clips via the trimpot.
Tombola
SpunRaddish wrote:
I took care of it using some section of the brick side which I haven't wired up, I just started the connection two pads later and severed any connection to the shorted pad. The reverb works, though still a bit quiet, or I have to lower the audio significantly, or if I'm running it hotter, I can hear the signal in the verb itself... Unfortunately, the LED stays lit, and the wet/dry knob does nothing. Any particular op-amp associated with the LED, or is that particularly the 3904?

Happy holidays, and thanks for any help!


The LED and vactrol are controlled by the 3904, with R11 going to ground and the ends of R31, R33 and R10 providing the summed control voltage from the knob and CV inputs. If the LED never lights, then something is likely significantly wrong.

Have you checked the orientation of the vactrol? - I guess that would really confuse the circuit if it was the wrong way round.

The 'full wet' audio output can be slightly lower that 'full dry' but you can hear from the various audio demos how it should work.
Tombola
Stab Frenzy wrote:
I'm talking clipping on the dry signal, not just the wet. Wet is adjusted for no clips via the trimpot.


That's strange, I haven't seen that before.

On the schematic, you can see that the the dry signal goes through two unity op amp buffers and nothing else (IC1D and IC1B), so it's hard to see where the gain would be coming from. Check that R7, R8 and C1 are correct - they're the only other components that go near the clean path.
SpunRaddish
Thanks for the response! No, the vactrol is the right way around, I know, because before I changed the resistor value of R11, the xfade and cv input worked fine, this whole issue began when I was playing with really low impedance... is it possible that the vactrol burned out, and what are the symptoms? I checked the resistors, I know they are correct, the LED is constantly on, the pot still has normal resistance. I think I see what happened now, I have a spare 3904 lying on my bench (hmm I thought I used that one...) d'oh! Now w00t
objectgroup
Not sure if this has been covered — Anybody know where I can track down a technical drawing of the Accutronics 9EB2C1B? Making a panel to mount the spring and don't know where to put the holes (I don't have the spring to take measurements yet). Might contact accutronics...
woodster
@ objectgroup,
Is this any help ?

https://www.tube-town.net/ttstore/images/product_images/original_image s/831_1.jpg
objectgroup
woodster wrote:
@ objectgroup,
Is this any help ?


Thanks woodster, but I'm looking for a dimensioned drawing of the mounting holes. Just sent them an email. Will post if I track it down.
nihilist
Building this now.
Which parts are in the kit are the 33nf caps, which a re fuses?
Thanks. thumbs up
woodster
They should be labelled.
There is also a picture of them on the Thonk website -

http://www.thonk.co.uk/shop/springreverbkit/

Scroll down a bit.
nihilist
Ok got it. What function is " tilt" supposed to be performing?
Monobass
nihilist wrote:
Ok got it. What function is " tilt" supposed to be performing?


it's just a classic EQ tilt, this type of response (although not these actual values)

Tombola
Tilt EQ is only on the reverb send, not the dry part of the signal
Stab Frenzy
Tombola wrote:
Stab Frenzy wrote:
I'm talking clipping on the dry signal, not just the wet. Wet is adjusted for no clips via the trimpot.


That's strange, I haven't seen that before.

On the schematic, you can see that the the dry signal goes through two unity op amp buffers and nothing else (IC1D and IC1B), so it's hard to see where the gain would be coming from. Check that R7, R8 and C1 are correct - they're the only other components that go near the clean path.


There's no gain, it just seems like there's less headroom than on say the intellijel unity mixer that is also part of my output chain. I'll do a bit of experimenting today to see if I can pinpoint exactly what the deal is, but yesterday I got around it just by lowering the level of my output VCAs.
SpunRaddish
Either something was wrong with the 072, but the reverb sounds great now that I swapped it to a NE552, both cleaner and louder... I also swapped the R11 for a lesser 1.8K, now the reverb goes wetter. The difference in sound from the 072 to the NE552 is like night and day. Big thanks to Tombola and Thonk!
Morpher
Is there anyone who can build one for me love?
Im kinda intrigued by the spring reverb
Stab Frenzy
Morpher wrote:
Is there anyone who can build one for me love?
Im kinda intrigued by the spring reverb

It's a really easy build, I'd just try it yourself if I were you.
Nantonos
SpunRaddish wrote:
Either something was wrong with the 072, but the reverb sounds great now that I swapped it to a NE552, both cleaner and louder... I also swapped the R11 for a lesser 1.8K, now the reverb goes wetter. The difference in sound from the 072 to the NE552 is like night and day. Big thanks to Tombola and Thonk!


Is that the 072 in the brick circuit or the 072 in the spring drive/recovery circuit?

It was reported earlier that 5532 did not work well in the spring recovery (which is as expected, because the 5532 is designed for low impedance audio circuitry and the output impedance of the spring is pretty high. At higher impedances the current noise is more important than the voltage noise. The 5532 has bettter voltage noise than 072 (5nV typ / 6nV max vs. 18nV) but vastly worse current noise (0.7 pA vs. 10 fA, or in other words 700fA vs. 10fA)).
SpunRaddish
Actually it's for the spring drive. Maybe running on +/-15 might have something to do with it, and the fact that I'm operating a turn from 0k on the trimmer, though now it sounds similar to the demos, still a HUGE discrepancy between dry and wet volume, but that's fine for now.
Monobass
Morpher wrote:
Is there anyone who can build one for me love?
Im kinda intrigued by the spring reverb


Charles Kerr has built a few for people now, drop him a line - http://loudestwarning.tumblr.com/ABOUT

But it is an easy build.
woodster
... d'oh!
arneborgan
Hello. Short question: I accidentally switched the pots B50K and B10K on the Spring Reverb pcb. I was just seeing this after reading the documentation right now. Do I have to resolder and put them in the right postion? Thank you. Arne PS. The kit seems to work.
arneborgan
Hi. thank you for a great kit. Short question: I accidentally switched the pots B50K and B10K on the Spring Reverb pcb. I was just seeing this after reading the documentation right now. Do I have to resolder and put them in the right postion? Thank you. Arne PS. The kit seems to work.
horstronic
Monobass wrote:
Morpher wrote:
Is there anyone who can build one for me love?
Im kinda intrigued by the spring reverb


Charles Kerr has built a few for people now, drop him a line - http://loudestwarning.tumblr.com/ABOUT

But it is an easy build.


I could also do that. But yeah, it's easy!
Tombola
arneborgan wrote:
Hi. thank you for a great kit. Short question: I accidentally switched the pots B50K and B10K on the Spring Reverb pcb. I was just seeing this after reading the documentation right now. Do I have to resolder and put them in the right postion? Thank you. Arne PS. The kit seems to work.


Short answer: should be fine

Long answer: the 10K should work OK on the blend. The 50K will work on the tilt, but the boost/cut will be stronger than with a 10k, so there is a greater risk of clipping. If you hear clipping, boost a little less!
Morpher
horstronic wrote:
Monobass wrote:
Morpher wrote:
Is there anyone who can build one for me love?
Im kinda intrigued by the spring reverb


Charles Kerr has built a few for people now, drop him a line - http://loudestwarning.tumblr.com/ABOUT

But it is an easy build.


I could also do that. But yeah, it's easy!


Ok thanks guys! I hope it really is easy, because I just bought a kit after reading this lol lol
horstronic
Morpher wrote:
horstronic wrote:
Monobass wrote:
Morpher wrote:
Is there anyone who can build one for me love?
Im kinda intrigued by the spring reverb


Charles Kerr has built a few for people now, drop him a line - http://loudestwarning.tumblr.com/ABOUT

But it is an easy build.


I could also do that. But yeah, it's easy!


Ok thanks guys! I hope it really is easy, because I just bought a kit after reading this lol lol


thumbs up
makers
I just finished two builds. Excellent kit and documentation! Another slam dunk by you two.

My second build sounds great.

The first one seems to have some problems. The Tilt is unresponsive and the reverberation doesn't seem to go as Wet as it should. I've reflowed all of my solder points. Any ideas as to where to look for problems would be apreciated.

I should mention that I sent a DC signal into the XFade jack during testing. Would this have damaged any parts?
Monobass
Makers did you see the bits in the build doc about modifying the jacks and also the care you need to take with the front panel RCAs?
makers
Thanks, I did the jack mods and was careful about avoiding shorts with the RCA grounds. I'll replace the EQ IC and see where that gets me.
snufkin
after a testing period I can't seem to dial out distortion with either the tank or brick it's quite subtle and fizzy but very much there

I did only take an hour to build so
I am going to check component values and replace the diodes just in case I fried one, without cheking are these in the audio path ?

everything else sounds great and works fine!
woodster
I'm very very impressed with this kit.
Just built one up using the Medium Brick.
It really does sound fantastic!
Now need to decide if the second one will have a Short BTDR-2H (2.0s), or the Long (2.85s)...
Likewise, two flavours of Spring will be required.
One Big, One Small me thinks.
Also looking forward to the Expander Panels...
makers
Edit: further fiddling revealed that it was an intermittent ground ring on the send RCA jack. The nut was tightened well enough but still a bad connection. I lightly sanded the solder ring and added a lock washer for a more positive connection. Now all is good! w00t
the83
Just finished my first build yesterday. Loving this guy so far. Here's my first jam with it.

[s]http://soundcloud.com/theronhumiston/spring-music[/s]

It's pretty noisy with a tank mounted inside of my case. I'm going to build two more for my other case—those two will get external tanks.
jgb
Monobass wrote:
jgb I recommend checking these two sections of the build manual, these can contribute to harmless short circuits that can have exactly the effect you're describing.

Section 14 - on page 7 - Modifying Jacks

Section 35 - on pages 16 & 17 - Isolating Front panel RCAs

http://thonk.co.uk/documents/springreverb


Problem found. Too eager person behind the soldering iron. I had only soldered one leg of the socket for the TL072 in the brick section... d'oh! d'oh! d'oh! So, carefully bent the brick's legs a bit to be able to solder those missing connections and voila, working perfectly! grin

During the troubleshooting of this module, I built the second one I had ordered, which worked perfectly from the beginning. Having a working module helped out quite a bit in tracking down the problem with the first one.

Thank you guys for all help! smile
sduck
the83, is that a tank with the long reverb setting? That reverb seems to go on forever, cavelike. Love it!
makers
Sayonara a199.
radiokoala
While I don't have a brick yer, can I bypass it and use a module as an x-fader? If yes, do I need to wire anything?

Another thing, black capacitor next to a standoff touches exactly the two nearby resistors on another board. Is it okay? Can it short them?

And last, how do I position a thonkiconn jack? There's one leg more than holes.
woodster
Do you mean the 10uf touching the 2x 100n's ?
Not near a standoff, so maybe you mean C2 ?

Page 15 of the Thonk doc's mention these situations -

http://thonk.co.uk/documents/springreverb/Spring_Reverb_v0.9.pdf

Either way, shouldn't be an issue.
Stab Frenzy
makers wrote:
Sayonara a199.

Same, sold mine two days ago.
radiokoala
When you look at the pcb like an actual module (pots atop, jacks at the bottom), where is signal and where is ground on jacks?
radiokoala
woodster wrote:
Do you mean the 10uf touching the 2x 100n's ?
Not near a standoff, so maybe you mean C2 ?

Page 15 of the Thonk doc's mention these situations -

http://thonk.co.uk/documents/springreverb/Spring_Reverb_v0.9.pdf

Either way, shouldn't be an issue.


I meant 68k and 100k resistors and 10 uf cap below. I resoldered it and went for a lower height capacitor, to avoid short circuit (of which there seemed to be a non-zero chance, at least in my case).
Jonachi
Just built my second. With the build docs it was super easy. Completed it in less than 2 hours. The hardest part was the RCA jacks (on the front) and the tiny wires that are supposed to be used (I swapped them for slightly thicker ones).

A great experience, had a blast building it and been using it in patches a lot.

Hope to see more kits like these from Thonk in the futere! Thanks to everyone involved!
woodster
Any Brick users using the Short BTDR-2H (2.0s), or the Long (2.85s) ?
Have a Spring built up with the Medium, but can't decide which way to go for the second build.
Any opinions either way ?
Jonachi
I use a long brick, I never use short reverbs so can't really help you there (can't really see the point of a short reverb). What ever floats your boat, I'm sure both sounds great.
craigwilliamsmusic
I have built mine and already used it on a track for my new LP
i'm in love with it hahahahahaha
Rick Burnett
So I finally got around to building my custom mixer instead of using a switch. I decided I really wanted to dial in each one as much as I wanted, and I am glad I did because it can be a lot of fun. Each reverb sound is so incredible different.

I started with this circuit:

http://privat.bahnhof.se/wb447909/dinsync/files/Simple%20DIY%20Eurorac k%20Polarizing%20mixer.pdf

From DinSync, simple polarizing mixer. I set the input resistance to 50K not 100K for the tank (R1), and left the brick at 100K. My pots were 50K. The other changes I made was I put R7 to 200K so I doubled my output gain (as I felt it was lower in perceptibility than the dry) and didn't use a switch, just hooked that side of the pots to ground to get non-inverting output.

While the gain is probably a bit higher than I wanted, I like the flexibility since I can adjust the gain of the brick/tanks independently now to get them whatever I want.

The circuit works great, so I built something I could put in the rack. Given it was just a quick experiment, might be fun to just build a board for it, but for now this will suffice. The strange power connection is because I made the board too small and had to basically build a daughter board to hook up the power easier smile






I also created a quick example of using it. The tilt is set to 12'oclock. I started with full dry, then just had each of the two reverbs maxed independently to show it working normal (like a switch), but then I start having both on and start just adjusting each other a little bit here and there just to show the sonic changes. Obviously with both set off you get some of the dry through but it's really quiet.

Edit: For the life of me I cannot figure out why the SoundCloud link is not working as it was in other posts.

[s]http://soundcloud.com/rick-burnett-1/reverb-test-mtm-with-custom[/s  ]

Very happy with it nevertheless!

Rick
falafelbiels
Okay this may have been talked about earlier, but I just can't bring myself to reading 60 pages for it, sorry.

I ordered a couple of PCB sets but not the frontpanels because I enjoy doing those myself. Has anybody seen any .ai files or maybe an overview of measurements for the panel? I know the Turing Machine had this so I'm keeping my fingers crossed for not having to measure something I don't have...

Thanks,
Niels
fluxmonkey
i asked the same question a few weeks ago... there's a dimensional drawing of the panel in the build docs bundle on th website: http://musicthing.co.uk/modular/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Spring_2_1_ Documentation_Bundle.zip


falafelbiels wrote:
Okay this may have been talked about earlier, but I just can't bring myself to reading 60 pages for it, sorry.

I ordered a couple of PCB sets but not the frontpanels because I enjoy doing those myself. Has anybody seen any .ai files or maybe an overview of measurements for the panel? I know the Turing Machine had this so I'm keeping my fingers crossed for not having to measure something I don't have...

Thanks,
Niels
bloke_zero
Anyone have a 5U panel design they'd be willing to share?
Howes
Picture file

I'm almost there, I know the LED goes last, but I've been staring at these 4 little fuckers on the right for about an hour and I can't figure out where they go.

Also what are the 4 bits above for?

This is my first DIY and its completely burnt me out

Dead Banana
Howes
Oh my god I just found the manual
sduck
bloke_zero wrote:
Anyone have a 5U panel design they'd be willing to share?


Do you want the one I posted a few pages back?
woodster
Howes wrote:
Picture file

I'm almost there, I know the LED goes last, but I've been staring at these 4 little fuckers on the right for about an hour and I can't figure out where they go.

Also what are the 4 bits above for?

This is my first DIY and its completely burnt me out

Dead Banana


I'm a bit scared by that shadow in your picture.
Howes
I have no snips I'm a disgrace, I'm hanging up the iron for today I'm emotionally exhausted by this thing
Monobass
They are the IC Sockets..

you'll really be wanting this... -> http://thonk.co.uk/documents/springreverb
Howes
Monobass wrote:
They are the IC Sockets..

you'll really be wanting this... -> http://thonk.co.uk/documents/springreverb


Yeah thanks, can't believe:

A- I got this far without it
B- How much of an idiot I am
falafelbiels
fluxmonkey

Aah merci...
Monobass
Black PCB panels coming soon, along with white and alu panels for sale loose.

Nantonos
Howes wrote:
I have no snips I'm a disgrace, I'm hanging up the iron for today I'm emotionally exhausted by this thing


Don't give up, you just made one BIG but EASILY FIXED mistake.

You tried to do the whole thing without the build instructions. Even for an experienced builder, a quick glance would be wise in case there are special things to take not of (and there are, such as the earth tabs on the phono sockets, case connection, trimming the jacks).

For a beginner, you were setting yourself an unreasonably hard task. Suggest you chill for a bit, then read over the instructions step by step; then read them over again, checking for each step that the components were put in the right place with (if needed) the right orientation.

Fix any mistakes you find, step by step. If in doubt post detailed pictures and people will help. You can do this.
woodster
^what he said^

If your desperate, I have a few spare sets of snippy type pliers I can post you a set out if you don't have any.
radiokoala
Rockin' Banana! Rockin' Banana! Rockin' Banana! I must admit the black panel looks ace! Also my bananas are rocking, because I bought the last (OKAY. except chip!) part I needed for a build - a 6.8K resistor, so I'm going to have a VC x-fader any day this week soon and even going to give it a use at next gig!.. smile

Oh, and also did I mention I succesfully got to work my very first DIY project today..?! smile ( hexinverter SympleSEQ SlayerBadger! w00t )

With a reverb, x-fader, and sequencer my modular must be very happy about the beginning of this year.... viva le DIY!! smile It's peanut butter jelly time!
patilon
finished the spring reverb and have some issues..

..btw. ... the white panel looks totally great!

i use a brick and spring reverb with a switch.
In both modes most of the wet/dry-thing is happening between 9-12 o´clock.
9 o´clock no reverb, 12 o´clock nearly full reverb. is that supposed to be that way?

the dry signal lacks high frequencies at the output.. it sounds like being low-passed, while a signal put into the x-fade input stays as it is.

i changed R6 22k for 47k.. got the spring signal a little bit louder. does this affect the brick as well?
didn´t check before/after.
my akg spring reverb has 130 ohm input and 260 ohm output, the trimmer on the pcb doesn´t affect the spring reverb out.
are there some reasonable modifications i could do to get the spring reverb louder?
woodster
I'm sure the Spring and Brick drivers are both separate, as you can build it up to be either, or both.
A resistor change to one part shouldn't affect the other I don't think.
Rick Burnett
patilon wrote:
finished the spring reverb and have some issues..

..btw. ... the white panel looks totally great!

i use a brick and spring reverb with a switch.
In both modes most of the wet/dry-thing is happening between 9-12 o´clock.
9 o´clock no reverb, 12 o´clock nearly full reverb. is that supposed to be that way?

the dry signal lacks high frequencies at the output.. it sounds like being low-passed, while a signal put into the x-fade input stays as it is.

i changed R6 22k for 47k.. got the spring signal a little bit louder. does this affect the brick as well?
didn´t check before/after.
my akg spring reverb has 130 ohm input and 260 ohm output, the trimmer on the pcb doesn´t affect the spring reverb out.
are there some reasonable modifications i could do to get the spring reverb louder?


I'd go back through and check every part to make sure you put the right ones in, including making sure you used the right potentiometer in the right location. I say this because I found 2 resistors that I had swapped by accident (22R and 22K looked similar) and it was causing problems in just the tank side.

Also check where you have the TILT setting, this affects the sound of the verb.
Rick Burnett
woodster wrote:
I'm sure the Spring and Brick drivers are both separate, as you can build it up to be either, or both.
A resistor change to one part shouldn't affect the other I don't think.


They do have common paths before and after, so in those circuits, you could have problems.
patilon
checked everything again, also redid some solder joints just to be sure,
the alphas are on the right places.

somewhere i read, that the thing with the trimmer (not doing anything) could be caused by the wrong spring reverb?

apart from the (in comparison to the brick) quiet spring reverb,
everything works fine.. apart from the dry/wet-behaviour.. does yours
actuaylly react linear (dry -> wet) over the whole way?
and the dull dry-signal at the output.. which doesn´t get affected from the tilt.
only the reverb signal does get affected by it as it should ...
any voltages i could measure?
the source of this should be locatable?
sduck
The dead sounding output indicates some kind of problem... somewhere, don't know where to start. It should sound the same coming out as it does going in though.

And yes, it's going to be almost impossible to get a decent signal out of a tank that's that far off the specs for this unit. Can you get another tank that's closer to the stated specs? A higher impedance on both ends will really help a lot.
Tombola
patilon wrote:

i use a brick and spring reverb with a switch.
In both modes most of the wet/dry-thing is happening between 9-12 o´clock.
9 o´clock no reverb, 12 o´clock nearly full reverb. is that supposed to be that way?

Which vactrol have you used, and which value resistor did you put in R7?

R7 depends on the vactrol.
Silonex 32SR3 = 470Ω
VTL5C3 = 47k

This kind of circuit won't have a perfectly smooth fade, but it should be smoother than you've described. Have you experimented with the x-fade input, which bypasses the whole spring circuit completely? Put in a sine and a square from the same oscillator and see how the sweep works.

patilon wrote:

the dry signal lacks high frequencies at the output.. it sounds like being low-passed, while a signal put into the x-fade input stays as it is.


There's very little in the dry signal path: It goes through a unity buffer at IC1B, then through R7, past C1 and through another unity buffer IC1D.

Makes me wonder if the grounding issue I mention below is messing the whole circuit up?

patilon wrote:

i changed R6 22k for 47k.. got the spring signal a little bit louder. does this affect the brick as well?


R6 will have no effect on the brick signal.

patilon wrote:

my akg spring reverb has 130 ohm input and 260 ohm output, the trimmer on the pcb doesn´t affect the spring reverb out.
are there some reasonable modifications i could do to get the spring reverb louder?


"Tested spring specs are:
Input: 150Ω to 800Ω
Output: 2,250Ω to 2,575Ω
Insulated input, Grounded output
Beyond this range, you may need to do some research or experimentation."

You have three variables to consider - the drive circuit and the recover circuit, and the Tank grounding.

The trimmer means you can push the drive circuit as hard as you want, limited by the current output power of the TL072 (which is not huge). If you don't see any effect from the trimmer, then something is fundamentally wrong - you should be able to push the spring into complete overdrive/distortion, then pull back.

The recover circuit is designed for springs c 2.5k ohms. I don't understand the maths well enough to know how it would react to a coil 10x smaller. I guess it will give a much smaller output. However, the circuit is already amplifying by a factor of 1000, so I'm not sure how much further it can be pushed.

Tank grounding is also important. The tanks recommended for this have the input floating and the output grounded to the shell. That's why the front-mounted phono jack panel has to have isolated sockets or a non-conductive PCB panel. If your tank has a different grounding scheme, that might have a big effect - I wouldn't know how to address that.

It's possible that your tank is differently grounded and that's causing all of the issues - if you remove the tank, does the brick part work any better? You might be able to modify the tank itself, not sure.
patilon
thanks for the detailed answer tombola!

i ordered a full kit, so i didn´t decide about the vactrol.
i checked.. it´s a VTL5C3 and the value with 47k is correct
(which i checked directly at the pcb again)

Quote:
There's very little in the dry signal path: It goes through a unity buffer at IC1B, then through R7, past C1 and through another unity buffer IC1D.

i checked the ic1-joints again, testwise swapped the TL-074 for a different one, measured R7 again. c1 is "102", don´t know how to check this with the multimeter.

Quote:
Makes me wonder if the grounding issue I mention below is messing the whole circuit up?

i checked everything (dry/wet behaviour, dull-input) with the unconnected tank as well. it´s exactly the same

Quote:

The trimmer means you can push the drive circuit as hard as you want, limited by the current output power of the TL072 (which is not huge).

okay, new findings here w00t
totally forgot my fender and vox guitar amplifiers, because they weren´t used for years.. took out the two spring tanks (both have values within the recommended ohm-range). seems i didn´t get along with the trimmer so far.. i turned it about 15 times and finally i heard volume-changes.
these encouraged me to use the first tank again.. and voila.. i could get it much louder now d'oh! even if it´s not within the recommended specifications i don´t hear any disadvantages (noise, hum, volume) in comparison to the other two tanks, R6 is 47k at the moment.
so everything is perfect with that now.

wet/dry-behaviour.. maybe it´s a subjective thing and i´m just to critical..
so i made some recordings..
u-lfo sqare-output, modulated by a d-lfo sinewave.
dry/wet at 12 o´clock and control fully clockwise.
Download dry-wet.mp3

u-lfo square vs. sine-output to demonstrate dry/wet behaviour again.
Download square vs. sine.mp3

and here to demonstrate the difference between normal "in" and "x-fade-in". same square-waveform multiplied into both.
Download square vs. square.mp3

so, the trimmer actually works fine (my fault).. the dry/wet-behaviour "might" be normal that way?
the thing with the dull-input stays. anything i could try/measure to locate
the mistake?
kollo
I also noticed some low pass filtering of the dry signal, works fine otherwise tho. Haven't had the time to check it yet..
Pdm1138
Any idea when the front mounted RCA panels will be available again (in white or aluminum)?

seriously, i just don't get it
Jonachi
I have a question: Would it be possible to have the 2 reverbs in series, with a switch, Digital and then to spring?
Tombola
Jonachi wrote:
I have a question: Would it be possible to have the 2 reverbs in series, with a switch, Digital and then to spring?


Here's the Schematic + the PCB layout is available in the eagle files.

To do this, you'd need to find the inputs and outputs of the two spring circuits.

Outputs are easy - they're at the jumper on the back.

Inputs are slightly harder. Both circuits are fed from the 'reverb_send' pin (pin 4) on the jumper that connects the front PCB with the back PCB. Both are also connected to the 'EQ-OUT' pad.

So you'd need to remove pin 4 and take a wire from the front board bringing the post-EQ 'send' signal to the back.

Then you'd need to cut the traces that connect pin 4 from R22 and pin3 of IC4.

Once you've separated them, you have everything you need:
- Send from the front board
- input to the spring
- input to the brick
- output from the spring
- output from the brick

Finally, you'd need to arrange your parallel/serial switching - maybe start here: http://www.beavisaudio.com/projects/Looper-Switcher/index.htm
Jonachi
Thanks Tombola!
patilon
anyone having built the spring reverb listened to my samples and could tell if this is normal?

if it isn´t - any ideas about further debugging? tombola?
djthopa
I just finished two of these.

One with accutronics tank and another with external spring. Both sounding ace.

Very well documented built....time for a tape Delay Tombola???
mrfang
Super breezy <3hr build; many thanks to the designer!

My only suggestion is to add an ordering option for just the PCB and front panel, for those who like to source their own parts (and/or have a lot of them on hand already).
mrfang
Monobass wrote:
Black PCB panels coming soon, along with white and alu panels for sale loose.


Yes!
objectgroup
Simple build and sounds great. Like a few others, I added the switch.
Here's a pic: http://imgur.com/TMS4iei
Flux302
Meant to post this earlier. But guess my A.D.D. Got the best of me. Anyway here is both the tabula rasa I built and he music thing reverb in action together https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIFssQsShfI. It's motherfucking bacon yo
makers
Using two of these in a live set tonight!
L.C.O.
objectgroup wrote:
Simple build and sounds great. Like a few others, I added the switch.
Here's a pic: http://imgur.com/TMS4iei


Lovely panel!
Where did you get it done?
objectgroup
L.C.O. wrote:
Lovely panel!
Where did you get it done?

Front panel express. There's ample of room on the rear-RCA version to add switches or jacks above or below the PCBs.
L.C.O.
objectgroup wrote:
L.C.O. wrote:
Lovely panel!
Where did you get it done?

Front panel express. There's ample of room on the rear-RCA version to add switches or jacks above or below the PCBs.


That's cool. May i ask how much did this cost at FPE?
objectgroup
L.C.O. wrote:
That's cool. May i ask how much did this cost at FPE?


$36
L.C.O.
objectgroup wrote:
L.C.O. wrote:
That's cool. May i ask how much did this cost at FPE?


$36


That is not bad at all!
thank you for the info, i will definitely look into this as an option.
Tombola
makers wrote:
Using two of these in a live set tonight!


How did it go?
makers
Tombola wrote:
makers wrote:
Using two of these in a live set tonight!


How did it go?


It very well, thank you. 45 minute improvised set was very well received with a small crowd quietly listening! Small venue in Savannah GA called Safe and Sound.

http://safeandsoundsav.blogspot.com

One of us had a small spring tank in the bottom of a Bento Box. I had a large external tank sitting on my table beside pedals and mixer, etc. I used a one axis of a joystick to mix Wet and Dry. Loads of Fun.

Thanks again for an excellent DIY opportunity!
Tombola
makers wrote:
Tombola wrote:
makers wrote:
Using two of these in a live set tonight!


How did it go?


It very well, thank you. 45 minute improvised set was very well received with a small crowd quietly listening! Small venue in Savannah GA called Safe and Sound.

http://safeandsoundsav.blogspot.com

One of us had a small spring tank in the bottom of a Bento Box. I had a large external tank sitting on my table beside pedals and mixer, etc. I used a one axis of a joystick to mix Wet and Dry. Loads of Fun.

Thanks again for an excellent DIY opportunity!


Good to know it worked OK in a live environment - I've never tested it beyond turning up the speakers a bit in my workshop/shed. That little unit you can see in the PDF documentation - two little blue springs in a hammond box - is completely un-isolated so feeds back at the first possible opportunity, but the big tanks are much more forgiving.
patilon
refering to my earlier post regarding building problems..

the tank problem has been solved.. my akg tank (130 ohm input and 260 ohm output) works fine.
unfortunately the tank of my fender deluxe reverb turned out to sound much more interesting.. d'oh!

i wasn´t sure if the wet-dry behaviour is normal that way.
uploaded the files on soundcloud now, to make it easier for other builders
to listen and tell me, if your spring reverb behaves the same.

first: sqare-output, modulated by a sinewave. dry/wet at 12 o´clock and control fully clockwise.

https://soundcloud.com/patilon/spring-reverb

second: square vs. sine-output to demonstrate dry/wet behaviour again.

https://soundcloud.com/patilon/spring-reverb-1

and i had some problems about the input-signal getting dull at the output
(only with the normal input, not with the x-fade-input).
so i took the same square-waveform multiplied into both, modulated by the same sine:

https://soundcloud.com/patilon/spring-reverb-2

i suppose, this shoud definitely not be that way. any hints how to fix this?
sduck
It's really hard to tell what's happening when you feed the thing a static square wave like that. The reverb signal probably shouldn't be dark like it sounds like it might be, but it's hard to tell which is the reverbed signal.

Also, soundcloud embedding - paste the url of your soundcloud track into the message box, delete the s after http, then put [s] [/s] at either end.

[s]http://soundcloud.com/patilon/spring-reverb[/s]
Tombola
OK Patilon, I have listened to your sounds and made you some in return: https://soundcloud.com/musicthing/sets/demos-for-patilon

Re: Dry VS Wet.
I've recreated this patch on my system for you (square out from DPO, into IN, OUT to the mixer, sine from Dixie into CV, main knob at 12 o'clock, Control knob at 5 o'clock):

[s]http://soundcloud.com/musicthing/square-output-modulated-w-sine[/s]

That sounds how I'd expect it to sound - It's not a very musical way to use the module - if you put an unfiltered square wave through a spring reverb, you'll get this kind of dull/fuzzy sound from the wet version. If there isn't any space in the sound to hear the reverb, you won't hear any reverb.
There is a whole section on this in the Spring Reverb Documentation on page 2, because I found the sound was only useful when you use it in certain ways: "It’s not always easy to coax such smooth tones from a spring reverb. Don’t assume there is a fault with your module if you don’t immediately get this kind of sound - I made that mistake a few times on breadboard. Here’s what I’ve learned about getting a good, rich, warm, clean sound..."

In contrast, this is the same spring, the same modules, just taking the Sine out from the DPO, sequencing it with a Turing Machine and turning Control down to 2 o'clock:
[s]http://soundcloud.com/musicthing/sine-wave-sequence-smaller[/s]

Re: Square vs Square. My system doesn't sound like that.

This is what mine sounds like:

[s]http://soundcloud.com/musicthing/xfadetests[/s]

1st part = square with sinewave modulation between wet & dry (as above)
2nd part = square wave multed into X-Fade input - as you can hear, it sounds like a steady square wave output, you can't hear the modulation.
3rd part = I unplug the x-fade again, so it's the same as 1
4th part = X-fade connected to another oscillator, so you can hear the crossfading working.

I'm not sure what would be causing the dullness on the x-fade on your unit - check the components around the vactrol on the schematic?
julien
Hi,
I've finished the reverb who works with a brick.
I need to know if the calibration procedure is necessary if i only use the brick?
I've tried to turn the trimpot but i didn't hear any change!
I've also noticed a volume drop when the reverb is fully wet. Is it normal?
patilon
i should have explained the purpose of the samples better.
in both examples (dry/wet and square/sine) i only wanted to show the characteristic of a sine-modulated fade because i thought the fading-characteristic didn´t fade very sine-like.
so it wasn´t about the reverb itself at all. of course demonstrating the reverb-"sound" in any kind the dry/wet-sample would have totally failed in that regard wink

thanks for the samples tombola!

Quote:
If there isn't any space in the sound to hear the reverb, you won't hear any reverb.

yes of course. after listening to your first and third sample i think the fading characteristic in my build is as it is supposed to be in this circuit.
the only issue left is the dullness..

Quote:
I'm not sure what would be causing the dullness on the x-fade on your unit - check the components around the vactrol on the schematic?

the dullness comes from the normal input. the x-fade input-signal sounds exactly the same at the output, so that´s fine.
what could i try in this case? i checked the components again.
so just by looking at it i can´t find any mistake (however .. i attached pictures in case i´m blind). is there something i could measure with a multimeter to find the mistake?

Quote:
The reverb signal probably shouldn't be dark like it sounds like it might be

although the tilt eq is working fine.. it might be possible, that the signal is already dull before it gets processed, so the reverb-signal might be dull as well.




Tombola
julien wrote:
Hi,
I've finished the reverb who works with a brick.
I need to know if the calibration procedure is necessary if i only use the brick?
I've tried to turn the trimpot but i didn't hear any change!
I've also noticed a volume drop when the reverb is fully wet. Is it normal?


Calibration has no effect on the brick. If you're only using the brick, you didn't need to build the part with the trimpot at all!

Fully-reverbed does usually sound quieter than fully dry, yes.
flocked
Did anyone tried the 8EB2C1B? How is it sounding compared to the 9EB2C1B?
Tombola
flocked wrote:
Did anyone tried the 8EB2C1B? How is it sounding compared to the 9EB2C1B?


Here's a direct comparison between the two; 9 first, then 8. I didn't recalibrate the unit between them - so you could almost certainly push the output of the 8 up a bit if you did. I turned the blend up a little for the 8.

[s]http://soundcloud.com/musicthing/spring-reverb-9eb2c1b-vs[/s]
patilon
bug-update ...

Quote:
There's very little in the dry signal path: It goes through a unity buffer at IC1B, then through R7, past C1 and through another unity buffer IC1D.


after IC1B at the "entry"-leg of R7 the signal still sounds exactly as the source-waveform. on the other side of the R7 it´s much quieter (of course)
and a little bit more dull and sounds exactly the same as at the input of IC1D.
then at the output of IC1D it´s loud again and much more dull and sounds exactly the same as at the output of the module.
so.. the dullness "happens" a little bit within R7 (also changed to resistor to be sure there´s nothing wrong with it) and most of it within IC1D
(i changed the TL074 for a different one.. stays the same).
that´s the furthest i get on my own (the tank has not be been connected while testing)

seriously, i just don't get it
kollo
Try to desolder one leg of C1. C1 and R7 form a low pass filter, that is what was causing the high frequency roll of. Had the same problem, and this solved it. Thinking about just lowering the cap value a bit for now..
Stab Frenzy
flocked wrote:
Did anyone tried the 8EB2C1B? How is it sounding compared to the 9EB2C1B?

I made two with the 8, they're both sounding very good to me.
patilon
Quote:
Try to desolder one leg of C1. C1 and R7 form a low pass filter, that is what was causing the high frequency roll of.
Had the same problem, and this solved it. Thinking about just lowering the cap value a bit for now..


thanks a lot! we're not worthy
as you told .. i desoldered one leg.. high frequency roll of is gone,
then i replaced C1 with a 22pf capacitor, which i had lieing around (0.000022uF instead of 0.001uF), works as well.
having no idea about circuits and especially capacitors i ask myself what the actual task of C1 is here? hmmm.....

this wasn´t the best diy-experience so far after having realized the roll of bug came with the kit itself.
but i´m really grateful for your tip! having a half working module lieing around is quite frustrating cry

so, everything´s fine now and i can start experimenting with tanks and bricks.
first impressions: the belton bricks give kind of a chorus to the signal when holding a note woah
using bricks i have at least to amplify the wet-signal to be able to get a decent feedback,
but it works nicely with the big spring tank.
Monobass
patilon wrote:
this wasn´t the best diy-experience so far after having realized the roll of bug came with the kit itself.


which 'bug' specifically? I'm looking back through your posts but I'm not sure specifically what you are referring to here.
jgb
Low pass filtering of the dry output signal. I noticed this immediately when I tested my builds. I just sent some tracks from Spotify through the module and the dry signal was low pass filtered a bit compared to the original sound.
Tombola
patilon wrote:

this wasn´t the best diy-experience so far after having realized the roll of bug came with the kit itself.


Any bug (or design compromise) is in my design, not in Thonk's kits, and I'm very sorry that you haven't enjoyed this project.

That fragment of the circuit is also used in the x-fade in the Buchla music easel (and before that in vactrol application notes, I believe).

The easel circuit has a 4.7k R7 and a 910pf C1, which gives a cutoff of 37khz

I raised R7 to 47k for VTL5C3 vactrols, which experimentally made the x-fade smoother, but I didn't think to raise C1. That means the circuit has a cutoff of 3.3khz, which is the problem you are hearing.

With a Silonex Vactrol, you'll have 470R in R7 and .001uf in C1 = cutoff at 338khz, which would not be audible.

I just snipped off one leg of C1 in one of my modules with a VTL5C (you can do it without even disassembling the module), and it improved the high frequency noticeably - I have both types of vactrols, and hadn't noticed the issue myself while testing (I spend a long time test these circuits but don't catch everything).

Maybe that fixes the problem completely, or maybe it will have some other unforseen impact on the X-fader performance.

If you wanted to replace C1, the calculations suggest a value of 100pf - I don't know if that would make any difference compared to removing C1 completely - your 22pf will be fine.

Looks like removing C1 might a good change that I'll consider for a rev3 of the board, or you could incorporate it yourself if you want to design/release an updated version under the CC License - the design files are all on my site.
patilon
thanks tombola!

i think the information about the lowpass-thing is very important for future builders of this project and should be within the documentation.
i wouldn´t have had any problem with trying different c1 values or simply cutting the leg if i would have known earlier about it,
but when i think, i must have done something wrong while soldering.. of course it´s quite a hassle to find a mistake within my work which doesn´t exist and it costs a lot of time as well.
i will write again when i notice any negative aspects of the 22pf value, but so far everything sounds fine and the original signal keeps its frequencies wink

apart from the building problems i really can´t complain about this module at all!
kollo
I think it was a very smooth build and the kit was very well put together! It was just this cap smile Noticed the low cut of frequency caused by R7/C1 when I looked at the schematic, luckily it is an easy fix!
Tombola
patilon wrote:
thanks tombola!

i think the information about the lowpass-thing is very important for future builders of this project and should be within the documentation.


Just so you understand, I didn't know about it until 4:20pm today when I was writing the post and looking again at the Easel schematics.
patilon
Quote:
I didn't know about it until 4:20pm today

haha, okay! i guessed something like that ,) i think i was just very surprised
that there weren´t more builders who made this observation or wrote about it.

Quote:
when I looked at the schematic, luckily it is an easy fix!

i really wish i could say the same about me after looking into schematics lol
woodster
Just wanted to say that I get exactly (if not more than) what I expect from a Spring Reverb (or DSP Brick) with this kit.

It's significantly more defined than most.

YMMV, but there is an inherent tone coloration in my experience of using any Spring Reverb unit, over many years, both in the studio, or on stage with guitar amps.
It's what I would expect, and part of the reason they work in the fabulous way they do.

If I wanted pristine audio fidelity, I wouldn't seek it via a Spring Reverb. I'd look at a DSP based Room/Hall algorithm from something like a Bricasti, TC Electronic, Lexicon or Eventide unit.
Nantonos
Tombola wrote:
you could incorporate it yourself if you want to design/release an updated version under the CC License - the design files are all on my site.


Which is awesome, by the way. thumbs up
Jonachi
woodster wrote:
Just wanted to say that I get exactly (if not more than) what I expect from a Spring Reverb (or DSP Brick) with this kit.

It's significantly more defined than most.


+1
the bad producer
I agree, I like the sound as is, but may experiment with the board in the future too - it is DIY and I generally regard any PCB as just the starting point to being able to tailor the project to my specific needs...

I really think it's top stuff, certainly better than - for example - the original Serge paperface spring reverb! thumbs up

Jonachi
nice! Was wondering when these would show up with serge panels.
Dogue
Not sure if this has been answered in the 66 pages, but:

Can anyone suggest either a US source for the kit or a PCB manufacturer? Thonk is out of stock of the RCA jack front panel kit, and an admittedly quick check in Eagle using OSH Park's DRC turned up a bunch of errors.
Monobass
The Front RCA panel kit is back in stock next week as well as loose Front RCA panels.
Tombola
Dogue wrote:
Not sure if this has been answered in the 66 pages, but:

Can anyone suggest either a US source for the kit or a PCB manufacturer? Thonk is out of stock of the RCA jack front panel kit, and an admittedly quick check in Eagle using OSH Park's DRC turned up a bunch of errors.


Yes, you wouldn't be able to do it in OSH Park because he can't do plated slots - and all the jack sockets plated slots. Also, the Gerbers are a bit huge, because of the logos, that seems to choke their (very cool otherwise) online system.

You can order the whole set from Seeedstudio (where I get them, and I think where Thonk gets his done) - the last set of prototypes I ordered were 5 each of 2 x pcbs and 2 x types of panels = $130 inc shipping. Just remember to tell them NOT to put their serial number in the top silkscreen layer on the panels.
Dogue
Thanks. I just noticed that Thonk sells the PCBs apart from the kit, so I think I'll order those and make my own panel.
Flux302
I just did a fairly detailed video on the spring reverb, but haven't made it public yet. now I am going to snip a leg on C1 and see what change it makes. (I don't have any 100pf caps laying around right now and the wife took the car today. I am gonna do another short video with the snipped leg and see if I can find any issues it would cause. maybe I won't even need to put the other cap value on? regardless I love the module. even with a slight roll off it is still excellent. really pleased with it. It's motherfucking bacon yo

edit..

Ok so I clipped one leg of the c1 cap. and the sound opened up. I am toying with crossfade now, no ugly side effects noticed. toying with dry wet modulation no ugly side effects noticed... So unless someone can mention a good reason to place a new cap with a different value in there, I see no reason to have the C1 in that place at all. very easy fix and this module is AWESOME. I will shoot a new spring reverb video (besides I just got a new camera) showing it in all its glory now Rockin' Banana! applause
Flux302
here is a lil video of me running the volca beats through the modular and everything through the spring reverb. (post cutting the C1 cap wink )
not sure to embed on here :( the video button didn't work when I wrapped it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwlqId-ipNE
radiokoala




...dunno if anyone's into it smile
utamaru
This thing not being named "Spring Thing" is such a wasted opportunity! Most definately high on my build list, and in my next order from thonk.
oootini
finally got to test mine (had to wait to get dual male RCA cables!) initial tests put this in a different class to the a199, very little noise too, even with my spring module mounted in the box. huzzah!

i also swapped c1 for a 100pf cap with no unexpected issues.

must see how it plays in feedback patches next.

great work tom/thonk.
Tombola
the bad producer wrote:




Wow! Love that.
Tombola
utamaru wrote:
This thing not being named "Spring Thing" is such a wasted opportunity! Most definately high on my build list, and in my next order from thonk.


Too many of those already!

http://circuitridereffects.com/products/spring-thing/

http://www.tonetronix.com/p/Spring-Thing-Tube-Reverb.html

http://www.musicsynthesizer.com/diy/grant/spring%20thing/the%20spring% 20thing.html
Tombola
radiokoala wrote:


...dunno if anyone's into it smile


Lovely panel, bit big though, isn't it?
radiokoala
Tombola wrote:
radiokoala wrote:


...dunno if anyone's into it smile


Lovely panel, bit big though, isn't it?

Thanks, yea - a bit, but that would be an easy fix when I need space. For now my rack's only half-full, so I wasn't intentionally fine-tailoring it - for more space between patch cords nanners

PS: BTW I also recorded x-fade demo last night too,
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=103407

thumbs up
flocked
Can I use doepfer patch cables to connect the spring reverb with the module?

And can I place a busboard directly next to tank (so that it's touching it) or will it cause noise in the spring reverb?

And is a switching power supply also causing noise or only linear?

I'm currently planing/building my case. Thanks! smile
oootini
flocked wrote:
Can I use doepfer patch cables to connect the spring reverb with the module?

And can I place a busboard directly next to tank (so that it's touching it) or will it cause noise in the spring reverb?

And is a switching power supply also causing noise or only linear?

I'm currently planing/building my case. Thanks! smile


1 - you'll need male male rca cables, or else jimmy the doepfer one off the module
2 - that's fine. i've done that. no perceptible issues.
3 - switching are genrally more noisy i think
Monobass
flocked wrote:
Can I use doepfer patch cables to connect the spring reverb with the module?


No, spring tanks typically come with RCA connections. You could modify the tank to use 3.5mm connections instead, but I don't see why you'd want to do that.

flocked wrote:
And can I place a busboard directly next to tank (so that it's touching it) or will it cause noise in the spring reverb?


this would probably be a bad idea.

flocked wrote:
And is a switching power supply also causing noise or only linear?

I'm currently planing/building my case. Thanks! smile


spring reverbs are very sensitive, like a guitar pickup. you should test the noise you get with the tank in proximity to the busboard before you finish your case planning, or just plan for it to be external.
matttech
any more thoughts on making an expander available?

am starting to think about making one of these, but would probably go for both spring and brick

not so bothered about 100% wet output, but a dry TILT output would be great!
Monobass
I'm afraid all I've seemed to do in January is non-stop paperwork and shipping. I'd be well up for supporting some community based expander PCB design with a manufacturing run. the original is open source after all smile
radiokoala
Is there a mixer in circuit? I thought today since it has return, the signals must be summed, so think about hacking in 2 jacks thru potentiometers to single rtn...doable?
Tombola
[quote="matttech"]any more thoughts on making an expander available?

am starting to think about making one of these, but would probably go for both spring and brick

not so bothered about 100% wet output, but a dry TILT output would be great![/quote]

If you're interested in simple non-CV EQ, I have two nice simple EQ circuits built in Eagle - the Tilt from this, and a simple Baxandall bass/treble circuit - both clean and hifi-style circuits. Had been thinking about putting them into a 4hp module - happy to share my files for anyone getting started with Eagle / module design.
KNYST
Are these panels available yet?
(sorry if already mentioned somewhere)
Monobass wrote:
Black PCB panels coming soon, along with white and alu panels for sale loose.

eef
I have ordered the Thonk kit with the intention of using it with an old spring reverb I "rescued" from a 1970s Hammond VLSI organ. One of the (in)famous Cougar variety, that actually sounded pretty good when they worked, but were hard to keep working because all the cheap connectors would corrode.

Anyway, it is a smallish two spring unit with no markings that I can match to any discussed in the docs. New units are cheap enough that I am wondering why bother with this aged thing, but as I said the original sounded pretty good, and maybe recycling isn't all bad?

I've attached pictures of the Driver Board (all discrete components OMG!!) and the springs, in case that helps. What I'd really like to know is if it is the sort of thing that the Thonk unit is designed to drive, or if I need to modify the circuit, or just break down and get a new spring box.

TIA
Monobass
KNYST wrote:
Are these panels available yet?
(sorry if already mentioned somewhere)


Yeah all loose panels available here:

http://www.thonk.co.uk/shop/music-thing-spring-reverb-panels-and-pcbs/

Nantonos
eef wrote:

I've attached pictures of the Driver Board (all discrete components OMG!!) and the springs, in case that helps. What I'd really like to know is if it is the sort of thing that the Thonk unit is designed to drive, or if I need to modify the circuit, or just break down and get a new spring box.


In between the two springs, over on the left, are some letters or numbers too small/blurry to read in that photo. What do they say? Any other identifying letters or numbers anywhere?
eef
Nantonos wrote:
eef wrote:

I've attached pictures of the Driver Board (all discrete components OMG!!) and the springs, in case that helps. What I'd really like to know is if it is the sort of thing that the Thonk unit is designed to drive, or if I need to modify the circuit, or just break down and get a new spring box.


In between the two springs, over on the left, are some letters or numbers too small/blurry to read in that photo. What do they say? Any other identifying letters or numbers anywhere?


1164-7425-

Does that mean anything to you? It is printed right on the plate that holds the springs, so it might be meaningful. It also has 23572-0 engraved at one end of the box, and 121-000131 and 30 165 74 printed in blue in on the side. That last number might be a date code.

Also, underneath the driver board (which I had not removed until just now) It says:
accutronics
Geneva, ILL
PAT. 2,982,819
3,106,610

The 23572-0 number led me to this auction:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Accutronics-Reverb-Tank-Geneva-IL-2357 2-0-4FB2A1B-Made-in-USA-/201035088378

That tank looks similar, but mine has the clamp to lock the springs down. Unfortunately, the seller doesn't know what model it really is either ...

Also here:
http://www.fenderforum.com/forum.html?db&topic_number=729080

littleuch seems to say that the 23572-0 means it is a 9AB2C1B, which might be a problem for the circuit, as the A means an 8-10 Ohm input impedance, which won't work (or might not work, according to the docs). Has anyone tried a low input impedance spring? Or perhaps a simple resistor in circuit?

Finally I can look at the coils themselves, and measure resistance (though not impedance). Both coils have a back wire and a green wire, and are wrapped with yellow tape around the middle. The input coil has white plastic ends, and I measure very low resistance, about .7 Ohm. The output coil has red plastic ends, and measures about 170 Ohm resistance. I've found references to an accutronics chart that lists the coil color codes, but I can't find the chart itself.

Of course I need to know which wire goes to which side of the RCA jack also, since my tank doesn't have jacks, and they will need to be added.
Nantonos
Okay so nothing like an accutronics spring code.

The patent number is interesting though:

Quote:
Reverberation system with extended frequency response
US 3980828 A
Abstract
A reverberation system which employs low cost, spring reverberators and obtains a frequency response to beyond 9kHz. The high frequency components of an input signal are frequency shifted, to a lower range, applied to a reverberator, and then frequency shifted to their original range. This signal is then summed with the output of a second reverberator which receives the lower frequency components of the input signal.


noisefor
Just finished a brick build and powered up and nothing - only clean signal. Examined board and all was as it should be except... I noticed the 22pf capacitor got semi crunched when I installed the pot. I can replace this no problem, but my question is could I have damaged the circuit by running power through it in that state?
oootini
probably not.
airfrankenstein
Will the following tank work as well with the thonk reverb?

http://www.banzaimusic.com/Belton-RBS3EB2C1B.html
Belton RBS3EB2C1B


slightly smaller than the 9EB2C1B
Nantonos
airfrankenstein wrote:
Will the following tank work as well with the thonk reverb?

http://www.banzaimusic.com/Belton-RBS3EB2C1B.html
Belton RBS3EB2C1B


slightly smaller than the 9EB2C1B


Yes. The important points for compatibility being the input and output impedances (EB) and the output Edit: input being isolated from case ground (the "C" near the end).

Good explanation of how to interpret the tank numbers:
http://www.amplifiedparts.com/tech_corner/spring_reverb_tanks_explaine d_and_compared
Buckyball
Nantonos wrote:
airfrankenstein wrote:
Will the following tank work as well with the thonk reverb?

http://www.banzaimusic.com/Belton-RBS3EB2C1B.html
Belton RBS3EB2C1B


slightly smaller than the 9EB2C1B


Yes. The important points for compatibility being the input and output impedances (EB) and the output being isolated from case ground (the "C" near the end).


Doesn't the "C" mean the input, and not the output, is isolated from the ground?
airfrankenstein
Thanks Nantonos for a great link.
Buckyball, I don't know but the only difference between the Belton and the Accutronics is the type (3 vs 9), which seems related to size.
Buckyball
Agreed -- as long as they match then the Belton should work.
Buckyball
Nantonos, I saw a list at the bottom of your link that lists the sonic characteristics of a few brands of spring tank. Has anyone tried the Mod 9EB2C1B?

Here's the list from the bottom of Nantonos' link:

Nantonos
Buckyball wrote:
Nantonos wrote:

Yes. The important points for compatibility being the input and output impedances (EB) and the output being isolated from case ground (the "C" near the end).


Doesn't the "C" mean the input, and not the output, is isolated from the ground?


Yes you are correct. My mistake. What matters though is that the input and the output are isolated from each other.
Nantonos
The one I have is the Tube Amp Doctor 9EB2C1B.

Will say what it sounds like once I finish building the Music Thing oops
Monobass
Just a quick bump to say that the Spring expander design is currently in progress and there should be more details in the next couple of weeks!
eef
The box from Thonk arrived, so my urgency is slightly greater now. I am pretty sure my spring reverb has a very low input impedance, and thus there is some concern of it drawing too much current. Is it too easy to just put some resistance in series with the input to raise the impedance (which I understand to be resistance + reactance) to a more suitable range? I have plenty of resistors in my parts box, so that part is not so hard.

Anyone else try this?
airfrankenstein
The build manual mentions a capacitor (C12 i believe) that sits behind a socket. Which socket? I missed this detail.
Tombola
airfrankenstein wrote:
The build manual mentions a capacitor (C12 i believe) that sits behind a socket. Which socket? I missed this detail.


There is an electrolytic cap that goes on the back of the board, behind the input/output 3.5mm sockets

I mention it because it would be fiddly to solder after you'd put on the sockets
Tombola
eef wrote:
The box from Thonk arrived, so my urgency is slightly greater now. I am pretty sure my spring reverb has a very low input impedance, and thus there is some concern of it drawing too much current. Is it too easy to just put some resistance in series with the input to raise the impedance (which I understand to be resistance + reactance) to a more suitable range? I have plenty of resistors in my parts box, so that part is not so hard.

Anyone else try this?


No idea about this, I'm afraid.

My understanding (experimentally and theoretically) is that impedance is a function of the drive coil itself. If it was as simple as you describe, Accutronics could just build a trimmer into every reverb and save a lot of complexity...

If the specs are very different from my springs (ie the ones the circuit was designed for and tested with) then it may not perform well.
airfrankenstein
Tombola wrote:
airfrankenstein wrote:
The build manual mentions a capacitor (C12 i believe) that sits behind a socket. Which socket? I missed this detail.


There is an electrolytic cap that goes on the back of the board, behind the input/output 3.5mm sockets

I mention it because it would be fiddly to solder after you'd put on the sockets



Got it, thanks! I was afraid there might be one under an ic socket somewhere.
Tombola
airfrankenstein wrote:
Tombola wrote:
airfrankenstein wrote:
The build manual mentions a capacitor (C12 i believe) that sits behind a socket. Which socket? I missed this detail.


There is an electrolytic cap that goes on the back of the board, behind the input/output 3.5mm sockets

I mention it because it would be fiddly to solder after you'd put on the sockets



Got it, thanks! I was afraid there might be one under an ic socket somewhere.


That would be evil! (Although not completely unlike the LED/expansion header thing on the Turing Machine)
airfrankenstein
Tombola wrote:
airfrankenstein wrote:
Tombola wrote:
airfrankenstein wrote:
The build manual mentions a capacitor (C12 i believe) that sits behind a socket. Which socket? I missed this detail.


There is an electrolytic cap that goes on the back of the board, behind the input/output 3.5mm sockets

I mention it because it would be fiddly to solder after you'd put on the sockets



Got it, thanks! I was afraid there might be one under an ic socket somewhere.


That would be evil! (Although not completely unlike the LED/expansion header thing on the Turing Machine)


fond memories of undoing that error screaming goo yo
Nantonos
eef wrote:
I am pretty sure my spring reverb has a very low input impedance, and thus there is some concern of it drawing too much current. Is it too easy to just put some resistance in series with the input to raise the impedance (which I understand to be resistance + reactance) to a more suitable range?


Short version: no.

Longer version: No, really really no.

As you mentioned, impedance is resistance and reactance. Most of the impedance of the coil is reactive. As an example, a 9E**** spring has an impedance of 800Ω while the DC resistance is only 60Ω. A 9A**** on the other hand has an impedance of 10Ω and a DC resistance of only 1Ω.

Adding a series resistor will change the DC resistance, it won't change the reactance. Also, the point is to send power to the coil to make it move the spring. Wasting lots of that power to heat up a resistor will prevent excessive current draw, sure, but you also want the spring to do something as well.

Of the various grades (A to F) of input impedance, basically A need a lot of current (think small power amp), B needs a fair bit, C D and E are good with both the current and the voltage swing you could get from an op-amp running on 12 or 15V bipolar, and F needs higher voltage. This is why the Music Thing reverb is good for C D and E with B at a push. A and F, no, you need special circuitry there.



Image from this article which is well worth reading.
kires
Just finished kit from Thonk (Rca at the back) with BTDR-2H brick. I'm using brick only & all I get is output getting quieter & distorted, no reverb at all.

Shunt is in correct "Brick" position.

I understand that calibration has no effect on the brick, so there's no point using trimpot.

Any ideas? seriously, i just don't get it
airfrankenstein
I would start by looking for short circuits and verify that all ic's are in proper sockets, oriented correctly and no legs bent.
kires
Yes indeed, one of the socket legs was poorly soldered, fixed it & all good! It's peanut butter jelly time!

Thanks for the tip, will double check connections before posting next time thumbs up
airfrankenstein
thumbs up
eef
Thanks! Very helpful. I knew it couldn't be that easy, and had looked at that Amplified Parts PDF, but hadn't noticed that the driver circuits for the low impedance springs have tubes, and only the high impedance ones are driven by TL072s.

So I have ordered a tank I know will work ...

On a not terribly related note, I found a 68pf capacitor in my ceramic cap bag, and I guess I will try that in the circuit in place of C1. I saw the optimal value is 100 pf, but it seems I only have 68 and 151.

Or is it just as well to leave the cap off? Just going off the discussion a few pages back: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=95996&postdays=0&pos torder=asc&start=640


Nantonos wrote:
eef wrote:
I am pretty sure my spring reverb has a very low input impedance, and thus there is some concern of it drawing too much current. Is it too easy to just put some resistance in series with the input to raise the impedance (which I understand to be resistance + reactance) to a more suitable range?


Short version: no.

Longer version: No, really really no.

As you mentioned, impedance is resistance and reactance. Most of the impedance of the coil is reactive. As an example, a 9E**** spring has an impedance of 800Ω while the DC resistance is only 60Ω. A 9A**** on the other hand has an impedance of 10Ω and a DC resistance of only 1Ω.

Adding a series resistor will change the DC resistance, it won't change the reactance. Also, the point is to send power to the coil to make it move the spring. Wasting lots of that power to heat up a resistor will prevent excessive current draw, sure, but you also want the spring to do something as well.

Of the various grades (A to F) of input impedance, basically A need a lot of current (think small power amp), B needs a fair bit, C D and E are good with both the current and the voltage swing you could get from an op-amp running on 12 or 15V bipolar, and F needs higher voltage. This is why the Music Thing reverb is good for C D and E with B at a push. A and F, no, you need special circuitry there.



Image from this article which is well worth reading.
EMwhite
This may have been asked elsewhere, but any issues using 5% tolerance resistors? I was short a few and had to resort to going to RadioShack and worse, had to buy a bundle of about 400 of them for $15 in order to get the values I needed!

Serves me right for not looking. Then of course I get home and find out that I have to order a few caps anyway...

This isn't a quantizer but wanted to ask the general question. Specifically, it's:

R4,5,6,7,24

Thanks...
radiokoala
I can say every single resistor I used was 5%, and while I haven't bought brick yet, at least in x-fade mode all works as advertised. I'd wait for other replies maybe, but all in all don't think you'd get in trouble. 8_)
Tombola
I'd imagine those resistors will be fine - there's not much precision in anything involving a spring.
Poldenstein
Hi
I just received the accutronics 9EB2C1B, so I can start building now SlayerBadger!
But... This thing is HUGE!! I did not take measurements yet, but it looks something like 84hp wide. Did I make the right order?
I got the rear connection reverb panel as I was meaning to put the springs somewhere inside the case, but I am no longer sure it will fit in my 84hp 12U case now. Depth is not a problem, but if I want it faraway from the PSU space could be tight. Maybe I'll drill a hole to get the wires out from the back of the case and will put the springs in a dedicated enclosure to move around the studio.
Any opinion/suggestion?
Thank you
Monobass
I think using the rear RCAs and drilling a hole is the best solution from all perspectives.

I hate having cables sticking out my modular that arent 3.5mm patch cables... I'm not prone to OCD but that even gets me hihi
Poldenstein
Thank you Monobass, the only thing I'd hate about this solution is wasting an 84hp enclosure just for the springs.
Monobass wrote:

I hate having cables sticking out my modular that arent 3.5mm patch cables... I'm not prone to OCD but that even gets me hihi

The same here. I have cables sending CVs from outside the modular and they're always on my way. I have already planned some I/O tiles close to the sides to clean connections a bit.
zardoz
Has anyone tried using the blue Accutronics tank the Metasonix R-56 uses?
Tombola
Poldenstein wrote:
Thank you Monobass, the only thing I'd hate about this solution is wasting an 84hp enclosure just for the springs.


This is how I do it:

Tombola
zardoz wrote:
Has anyone tried using the blue Accutronics tank the Metasonix R-56 uses?


I have a couple - they work OK, sound OK, but I'm not sure you can buy them anywhere but direct from Accutronics.

Two downsides - they seem to pick up more hum than traditional tanks, perhaps because they are entirely plastic so don't have the shielding, and they need to be carefully mounted to avoid feedback, because they don't have the spring isolators you see in traditional tanks. I had two mounted in a hammond box (for shielding) sat on a shelf, and they'd feedback at pretty low levels.

One upside: skiffable real spring reverb:

radiokoala
Will return input work in only spring mode, or with jumper selecting brick also? Another thing, I decided to normal input to my 258 tri and use send/return holes for two more minijacks (but post-EQ output instead of usual send - looks a better idea to me). The question is, how I wire return - signal to rtn-tip I assume? Are rtn-rng and gnd the same thing, and which would be better to connect to?

Last, would normalling a vco out be as easy as to solder a wire to input jack leg? How do I make sure that patching will break a normal, or will it always just happen with no added effort? And please remind me which one on a jack is signal input meh Many thanks!
Tombola
radiokoala wrote:
Will return input work in only spring mode, or with jumper selecting brick also? Another thing, I decided to normal input to my 258 tri and use send/return holes for two more minijacks (but post-EQ output instead of usual send - looks a better idea to me). The question is, how I wire return - signal to rtn-tip I assume? Are rtn-rng and gnd the same thing, and which would be better to connect to?

Last, would normalling a vco out be as easy as to solder a wire to input jack leg? How do I make sure that patching will break a normal, or will it always just happen with no added effort? And please remind me which one on a jack is signal input meh Many thanks!


X-fade input works the same on spring or brick.

On all the 3.5mm jacks, ring is ground. On the phono jacks for spring send/return the ring is NOT ground.

The 3.5mm socket has 3 pins - tip, ring, switch - it's pretty clear when you look at the bottom, and I'd check it with a multimeter. Attach the vco to switch, and it will connect to 'in' unless anything is plugged into the socket.
Pdm1138
Need a little help. Just finished building and placed the power ribbon on the module with red stripe down. BUT, mine is oriented differently than in the photo documentation. Take a look below. Am I about to blow shit up?
[/img]
rico loverde
always follow the markings on the pcb. -12 on pcb to -12 on power bus board. ribbon cables routinely get made wrong so never trust them. if there is a key or notch on the ribbon cable preventing you from putting it in the correct way just slice it off with a razor.

-12 on pcb to -12 on power bus board or FUUUCCKKKK!!!

edit: that does look right though, had to put on my glasses to make sure.
Pdm1138
Works beautifully. Guinness ftw!
radiokoala
Looks GREAT in Black!



And... who doesn't want two! applause



(Feel free to re-use the color scheme, by the way - this 'shades of grey' outfit is such a great find in my opinion screaming goo yo)

All in all, I loved this black/aluminum combination so much I decided I should build synthrotek EKO too!.. smile
Rockin' Banana! Now, thank you Steve - as always happy with my order w00t
JeremyLemos
Has anyone tried to mount this inside a Doepfer 100 case?

http://www.amazon.com/Accutronics-9EB2C1B-Reverb-Tank/dp/B0043FN4A6/
Tombola
JeremyLemos wrote:
Has anyone tried to mount this inside a Doepfer 100 case?

http://www.amazon.com/Accutronics-9EB2C1B-Reverb-Tank/dp/B0043FN4A6/


Physically it will be fine, but it's likely to pick up a fair bit of hum from the transformer.

That said, the hum will be a function of the exact position of the springs and the transformer. I found turning the springs through 90 degrees (in any axis) often makes a huge difference
Poldenstein
Finished building yesterday and been wiggling all nite long w00t

This thing is gorgeous !!

This is my first spring reverb and I love it so much.

The feedback patch with some filters in between gives total weirdness. A sound source on its own right, I dare to say.
Cool indeed.
airfrankenstein
I got the Belton equivalent of the accutronics 8EB2C1B. Works fine.
Jop
Hi Wigglers.

Finally got the time to test my build and sadly I have got a problem..
Please let me explain my situation:

* Ordered PCB's from Thonk, build it sourcing my own parts (see attached bill of materials).
* Using a VTL5C3, so R7 = 47K
* Using a 9EB2C1B
* Pots/ jacks & led wired via connectors (module will be used in a custom design finally).

The problem I'm experiencing is that the spring tank doesn't blend into the mix. When I turn the blend level fully anticlockwise i just hear the dry signal, when I slowly move it to fully clockwise the signal just got lower in volume gradually, no reverb added. Played a bit with trimmer R2 and at the end of fully clockwise I can hear the spring tank making some noises but nothing in the audio signal. I already checked this afternoon the circuit for bad solder joints, correct parts and polarity, exchanged the IC's, all without result so far.

The X fade & CV input seems to be working ok, but need some further testing when I have more time.

I have attached pictures from the PCB's. Hopefully somebody is able to help, as I'm still a newbie...
rosch
could it be your vactrol is the wrong way? i can't really tell, as i haven't bought the kit yet and don't have a vactrol here to compare. so just a guess.
good luck!
Jop
Thanks Rosch, but it isn't the Vactrol. I have used Thonk's brilliant guide during the build.
a100user
Tank and brick delivered from Banzai today so I have everything needed
radiokoala
@ Jop

hey mate, great and clean soldering there! 8_)

let me say this:

this saturday I tested my return jack with vco input. you would assume it's the same thing as x-fade, but no! I found out there was not much crossfading going on and wondered as to why. I unplugged the cv modulation and manually tweaked the knob and found out that second signal was starting to appear only at 3 o'clock and below - at about 80% of a knob turn all I could hear was the 'dry' signal (vco going to In). maybe there is a different sort of response in this circuit I'd describe as super-exponential?

I don't really think anything is wrong with your module - you might need to swap a few resistors, but I really don't think that because of your mistake. by your neat soldering I'd assume you really know what you do. thumbs up

another version I had was I also sourced components myself and weirdly am in a similar situation, so I thought maybe it's to do with 5% resistors I said earlier I used. BUT, then, I looked at your photo and yours are 1%... hmmm.....

that's as much as I can say - hope for any of this to be helpful!

Guinness ftw!
sduck
Jop - I'd guess there's some kind of connectivity problem with the tank. With mine, I had isolate the ground connection on the send - I used the pads down at the end of the pcb. I think this depends on the kind of tanks you have. Try a direct connection from those pads to the tank, see if that works.
solitud
Great kit, like this thing very much, especially the EQ and CV control!
Only thing: I would like to have a little longer reverb tail.
I have build the Spring version with an Accutronics 8EB2C1B.
Sorry if already discussed to death, would the Accutronics 9EB2C1B increase the reverb time significantly?

Jop wrote:
Hopefully somebody is able to help, as I'm still a newbie...

Jesus, noob? You have soldering skillz like a japanese industrial robot.
Monobass
yeah your soldering is a lot better than mine in the build manual Jop smile
Jop
Thanks everybody for you kind words and advice, I hope I can do something in return in the future for you razz

I just try to be as precise as possible and really take my time during the build. Hopefully this results in clean prints and less trouble shooting.

Today during my break at work I got a bright idea to double check the jacks (because I did not mount them on the board), and especially the X fade input. If I follow the block diagram from Tom this is the first point after the tank, and if something is plugged into this jack the reverb is cancelled. So I thought the reverb return signal is normalized over this jack. Voila, just put a wire between the connection on the print and the Xfade jack and reverb was born!

This was really an educational experience, and it feels great to find the root cause in the end (with help from you!).
Jop
One thing I forgot to mention:

I have used a normal LED instead of a superbright one and noticed that the brightness is not optimal, can I do something about this (change a component) besides ordering a superbright one?

Thanks.
radiokoala
Funny you mention putting a wire - I had the same to happen to me during troubleshooting sympleseq I built. I checked with multimeter and the signal was disappearing just before going to cv & gate pads from the header connections. Firat few minutes I was thinking as to what was the reason, but then thought I don't care and just put a wire between those points! razz

As to led, superbright = simply white. I don't think there are 'usual' white and superbright white - well maybe I'm recalling it incorrectly, but if you have any color other than white, then 100% change the led, it affects how the circuit works I'm afraid.

PS: regarding brightness, mine is superbright indeed.
Monobass
yeah the advice from tombola is don't change the current limiting resistor on the led to change the brightness, it'll also affect the vactrol response and therefore the crossfade response.
oootini
swapping out for a different led should be fine though? I've been meaning to do this for a while actually...
Monobass
yeah swapping is fine

the part I shipped with was actually less bright than the one Tombola selected, although I must be honest it's too bright for me still smile

can't please everyone on this one though, some people have asbestos eyeballs
Jop
Thanks radiokoala & thonk, I will order some bright one's and see if I like the them more.
jgb
Two more kits arrived a couple of days ago, yay! Backlogging like a boss!
Jop
Is it normal that the signal from the input is always there regardless of the blend setting? When blend is fully CW the signal is still there and the volume is about 21dB lower compared to CCW. I do see the logic in combination with the reverb but I see the same when the reverb is disabled and the Xfade is used?

Thanks.
noisefor
I have built two of these now - a brick version for a friend (which had great dsp sound and responsiveness), and now a tank version for myself. Totally love it! When using as an aux send through my mixer and return signal is boosted distortion character is killer. Nice work!
sduck
Jop wrote:
Is it normal that the signal from the input is always there regardless of the blend setting?


Yes. If you need the wet signal by itself to control the mix differently, it's available on the pcb.
Jop
Quote:
Yes. If you need the wet signal by itself to control the mix differently, it's available on the pcb.


Thanks! Missed that one....
regenbot
Could i use A10k log pot for the EQ-tilt? I wonder how much it would hurt the response in this applcation.
Devi
Hi guys!
I testet mine whit a tank accutronics model 4fb2a1c. it works with many problems .. so now i bought the reccomended Accutronics 9EB2C1B but nothing happens...nothing.

someone has a similar problem? help
Monobass
Devi can you give us a little information on exactly what configuration you have built?

Did you follow the instructions for modifying the jack sockets in the build manual? Did you note the point about the tank phono connections not sharing ground or touching the case rail?
Monobass
regenbot wrote:
Could i use A10k log pot for the EQ-tilt? I wonder how much it would hurt the response in this applcation.


This pot is 'reset' at midnight (50% position, 50% resistance for linear), so if you use a log pot you'll end up with your zero point somewhere around 2 or 3 o'clock? (approx 70% position, 50% resistance for log) it'll 'work' but not advised really smile

Devi
i did a (Type 1) PCB mounted phono jacks for the spring reverb tank on the back.
Yes i did the modifying on the jack sockets and the tank phono connections are not touching.

it's strange because whit the 4fb2a1c is doing like a distorted Tremolo and whit the reccomended one nothing...

thx for the fast replay
Monobass
ok, can you post high res pictures of both sides of both PCBs?
Devi
if I touch the tank does not make any noise
Devi
ok. i do it tonight after work. THX monobass
Tombola
regenbot wrote:
Could i use A10k log pot for the EQ-tilt? I wonder how much it would hurt the response in this applcation.


I had a spare log pot in that position on my breadboard for quite a while when I was developing the circuit. It was quite annoying - the mid/flat position is at about 10pm. It works OK, but I wouldn't recommend it!
EMwhite
A few quick ones...

What effect (if any) does a less or greater fwd'ing LED have on the Vactrol response?

Is there anyway to get MORE reverb. I'm fairly certain that I've got the correct values in but the mix is more like 100% full CCW and 60%/faint reverb fully CW meaning that you still had the audio in at 60% of what it was fully to the left. You can definitely hear the reverb but it's at about "3" on a scale from 1 .. 10.

I've got another board set and components and will hit it again tomorrow to see if I get a different result. I've swapped out ALL ICs and screwed with ground etc. Based on my experience, the grounds on send/return DO need to be connected but certainly to the pinouts (since I'm not using integrated jacks) and certainly not common ground.

Also found that I had to wire the normalled jack on X-fade to Return as somebody pointed out above.
sduck
You can get a fully wet signal from the pads provided on the pcb. Then mix with the dry signal externally to your taste. Although it sounds like there might be a calibration problem - have you adjusted the trimmer correctly? If it's set right you should get a strong reverb signal, enough that you don't mind the dry signal that never completely disappears.
Devi



Picture file[/img]
Devi
help help
Ginko
So I have noticed something odd - if I turn the dry/wet control on the spring reverb, sometimes it makes my Turing machine lose lock momentarily - which breaks my amazing nevertobefoundagain sequence - any ideas on this? Something to do with power supply perhaps?
Monobass
Devi do you have the one of the top side of the other board with vactrol?
Tombola
Devi wrote:
help help


Have you checked that the two transistor-like objects are the right way around - the power regulator on the back board, the transistor on the front board?
Devi
Devi
Tombola checked and double checked...


jgb
Do you have an oscilloscope? Either hardware or software. Check if you get any signal sent to the tank to start with.

What happens if you play around with the springs manually? Do you get any sound?
Devi
whit a tank accutronics model 4fb2a1c. it works with many problems, whit the recommended Accutronics 9EB2C1B nothing happens also if i touch the thank
Monobass
Devi wrote:




Devi the thing that concerns me looking at the boards is that you are never getting any solder flow on the top of the board, ideally you should have a cone of solder on both sides of the board, sometimes the ones on the top won't look as good as the bottom... but really if the solder is flowing well then some of them will.

Then on the bottom of the board there are some joints, such as the vactrol joints (the top right of the top photo above), which barely look like they have seen any solder at all, or some of them almost look burnt, it's hard to tell as the lighting isn't so good on the photos and the focus is off.

I'd suggest removing the IC's and reflowing the solder on most of joints, you should be seeing nice shiny joints and like the shot below, you should see some solder flow on the top too.

If you can't get joints like that I'd suggest buying a better iron as you will easily wreck the board.

This image is a good example of good solder flow on the top of the board - https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/files/reverb_01_700.jpg
EMwhite
Curious to hear if those of us 'troubleshooting' issues with low or no Reverb output are messing with off module jacks vs. the type prescribed for a Euro implementation.

Interestingly or not, my issues at the moment are simply:

- low output of the reverb in the mix
- the fact that the mix is not very equitable meaning that it's not a 50/50 between and mostly if not all dry or wet at either end as I would expect.

To be fair, I am NOT using the LED that was prescribed on the Mouser BOM so may switch back to that.

I don't know if 15V was responsible for blowing my LED or sloppiness if I shorted it during one of the many plugging/unplugging during test but I was pulling my hair out troubleshooting the non-working (anything) only to find out that if the LED blows, the Vactrol does nothing; After switching all ICs, putting in a new transistor (for no good reason) it turned out to JUST be the blown LED.

For the record I ran this at 12V and 15V to similar result.

And for the record (also), need to determine if the tank isn't being driven enough, or if the recover FROM the tank is not being dealt with properly. All else is good. I can tell you that knocking/banging on the tank doesn't do much of anything as I would expect it to.

I built Tom's first schematic a good 18 months ago (iirc) and it was a) noisy but b) LOUD. This was laid out on a generic schmartboard and is messy (I'm not proud); I had issues with a shared ground when I did that but eventually figured it out.

I'm convinced that if I had more push (without blowing up) the Vactrol circuit, that the mix would be more of where I would expect. But I can say that pushing two raw OSCs into the circuit (one as "in" and the second as x-fade) comes a lot closer to being 50/50 split through it still goes from 100% 'dry' to something which is likely 60%/40%.

(just some thoughts)
bartleby
just built mine yesterday: excellent documentation, very straightforward build - as always with music thing/thonk kits! thumbs up

and the module sounds eye-wateringly beautiful with an 8-size accutronics tank!

just one thing: the crossfader doesn't work quite as expected. even with the 'blend' knob turned all the way cw, there is still some dry signal present on the output. in the other direction, with 'blend' all the way ccw, it's fine, no wet/crossfade signal on the output.
at first i thought i must have made some mistake while building the crossfade circuit, but then i saw that other people here are reporting the same thing. so, is this normal?

is there any way to modify the crossfader to get it to properly crossfade between 100% dry and 100% wet? that would be great, espcecially when using this module to crossfade between two external signals (i.e. when using it as a crossfader instead of reverb driver).
makers
EMwhite wrote:

- low output of the reverb in the mix
- the fact that the mix is not very equitable meaning that it's not a 50/50 between and mostly if not all dry or wet at either end as I would expect.


FWIW, this is similar what mine was doing when I was using front panel RCA's and did not have a good ground connection on those RCA connectors.

Edit: i just spent a few hours problem solving a unit built by a student in my modular synth class. He had accidentally switched two resistors on the bottom board- R4 and R6 (22 R and 22 K). This mistake made the Spring Return very quiet.
bsmith
Popped for pcb and panel from thonk and am gathering thingies to build with. Going to do a breakout switch to pop between brick and tank - just ordered a BTDR-2H with medium decay from smallbear, have a 9EB2C1B in my amazon cart I'm about ready to order I think after a bit more poking around to look at options. Has anyone used the medium decay belton that has any audio examples up?
On the music thing site it says the pots in that mouser bom are less than ideal for this project - anyone have mouser part #'s for more suitable pots?

edit: nevermind on the pots - these dudes right?
http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Detail?no=1139

Also, in the bom there are 2 pairs of rca phono connectors - are the 502-3501FPX only needed for folks doing rca jacks on the front?
makers
bsmith wrote:


edit: nevermind on the pots - these dudes right?
http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Detail?no=1139

Also, in the bom there are 2 pairs of rca phono connectors - are the 502-3501FPX only needed for folks doing rca jacks on the front?


Those pots are correct.

You only need one pair of RCA jacks- type choice depends upon Front /rear build. The type you listed are for the front panel build.
daluxer
I just noticed my spring verb outputs some white noise when full wet. Any idea what could be wrong? thanks
ray
How loud is the noise compared to the signal?
And is it noisy if you disconnect the spring tank?
And what type of tank so you use? Code Number?
daluxer
oh yup. forgot to add some info :

digital brick. noise pretty quiet compared to the signal but hearable. So probably this is a normal behaviour.

cheers
bartleby
bartleby wrote:
is there any way to modify the crossfader to get it to properly crossfade between 100% dry and 100% wet? that would be great, espcecially when using this module to crossfade between two external signals (i.e. when using it as a crossfader instead of reverb driver).

anybody at all?
Stinktier86
So, i've got a nice 4 hp expander panel for two spring reverb modules. There's eight pre-drilled holes. Three occupied by each 'channel' -brick/spring switch, wet out, eq out. What to do with the two other holes? Any ideas?

For example, could a switch act as a 'dummy' plug for the x-fade, making it act more as a vactrol controlled amp?

Any other suggestions?
bsmith
This thing sounds great! Using both tank and brick here - wanted to ask - the calibration calls for having tilt at center and trimming just into distorion and pulling it back. Did this fine - however, wanted to ask: when I then pull tilt counter-clockwise I do get a bit of distortion still. Is this normal, or is there something I should look at? It sounds great from tilt at about 9 oclock and above, but get that rumbly distortion below that. This happens with both tank and brick. It's really not that bad, and I'm probably being persnickity. But if it's not normal for the distortion with tilt full counterclockwise would love to fix.
Stinktier86
You could trim it a bit further back. I'd suggest trimming with the tilt set at the most distortion sensitive point.

The drawback is that you'll get slightly less good signal to noise ratio. This is a conflict of goals. If you're (if your ears are) fine with the signal to noise-ratio when having trimmed it a bit further, i'd suggest to go with it.

The accumulative noise of having recorded say 24 channels might be a nauseous experience, but then again you could re-trim before such a venture. Then again, this is why adding a reverb to a an aux group rather than to each single channel is common outboard practice.
ray
bsmith wrote:
...when I then pull tilt counter-clockwise I do get a bit of distortion still. Is this normal, or is there something I should look at? It sounds great from tilt at about 9 oclock and above, but get that rumbly distortion below that. This happens with both tank and brick. It's really not that bad, and I'm probably being persnickity. But if it's not normal for the distortion with tilt full counterclockwise would love to fix.


I did expect the same behaviour with a spring tank. If I adjusts the level to have no distortion, the wet signal is a little bit to quiet, compared to the dry signal. But I think its normal.
Stinktier86
I forgot that the signal level would have to be compensated somehow in the recovery circuit for the distortion vs. Noise-balance to be true. Otherwise it's rather distortion vs quietness, as described above.

Having a strong as possible signal coming to the tank exciter is also favourable for other reasons, such as the ratio between pure signal and possible electromagnetic interference/hum.

With good isolation measures, there should be no harm in backing down the trim a little bit further.
bsmith
Allright - well, like I say, it's really just with the tilt darker than I'd likely have it set in normal usage that I'm getting distortion - from around 10 o'clock up it's fine. Just curious if other people get distortion with it tilted to the left when trimmed to no distortion with tilt centered...
jgb
Stinktier86 wrote:
So, i've got a nice 4 hp expander panel for two spring reverb modules. There's eight pre-drilled holes. Three occupied by each 'channel' -brick/spring switch, wet out, eq out. What to do with the two other holes? Any ideas?

For example, could a switch act as a 'dummy' plug for the x-fade, making it act more as a vactrol controlled amp?

Any other suggestions?


Well... I would love to be able to send the output from the spring to the brick, and the other way around. Probably requires some level adjustment of the signal though.

In addition to that, stereo out from the brick since it is available (mixed to mono by default)
bsmith
There's a 2.2uF electrolytic in the music thing bom - is this just a booboo? Not seeing where it would be used or any mention of it in any build documentation....
Stinktier86
jgb wrote:
Stinktier86 wrote:
So, i've got a nice 4 hp expander panel for two spring reverb modules. There's eight pre-drilled holes. Three occupied by each 'channel' -brick/spring switch, wet out, eq out. What to do with the two other holes? Any ideas?

For example, could a switch act as a 'dummy' plug for the x-fade, making it act more as a vactrol controlled amp?

Any other suggestions?


Well... I would love to be able to send the output from the spring to the brick, and the other way around. Probably requires some level adjustment of the signal though.

In addition to that, stereo out from the brick since it is available (mixed to mono by default)


Ãœbercool! Looking at the schematics, jp1 is collecting the two reverbs post brick and spring recovery (in opposite to distributing the signal pre-reverb), and then multing it to the mix and unbalanced wet out option. This means any serial connection would include trace cutting, so i'm out. waah but it's a cool idea, still.

I know it isn't the same thing, but the wet out option could always be used for feedback tasks.

In 'stereo mode' the brick appearently sends every even bucket/sample to the right and every odd one to the left... Or maybe the other way around. I don't know if this quality loss is noticable though, i can't imagine belton would include the feature if the sound wasn't acceptable.
Selador
Any news on the restock? screaming goo yo
toschek
I'd like to know about the restock too, it's still april I guess? If the restock isn't going to happen before May when will they update the page?

Does anyone know of other vendors who stock the kit? For example, you can buy an Eko kit from a lot of retailers (control voltage, fox tone, etc.)

Thanks .!.
Monobass
I'm.waiting on parts for the restock, may is still possible.
Stinktier86
I'm unsure about the 072s and the NE5532P.

is this the correct orientation? should the dot be towards the socket notch? on the 074 it's not, so..

bsmith
Dot toward the notch. When there is no little divot but there is a a little dot off to one side, it is indicating pin one.
Stinktier86
thanks for the quick answer! no more halts now hopefully w00t
Starspawn
Any particular reason one needs to use RCA connections?
I got a tank without, if I wanted to install jacks on both it and board whats the worst that can happen?
woodster
Starspawn wrote:
Any particular reason one needs to use RCA connections?
I got a tank without, if I wanted to install jacks on both it and board whats the worst that can happen?


You'd need to mount the Jacks off board, unless you have some Jacks which fit the PCB footprint.
Jacks will be deeper inside the case compared to RCA.
It might be a factor if you are using the non front panel Spring connectors.
Starspawn
Wont be using the faceplate so thats not an issue, most of the panel parts will be off board I guess, I was just wondering if (besides isolation that Ive got covered) there was any reason to prefer RCA like tighter connection or shielding or something.
woodster
Form Factor, that and the tanks mainly do have RCA's on 'em
Stinktier86
Hi again. Put it together and it's alive (it's alive!!! cry ) but not particularily well.

Here's my findings so far:
Z3000 --> optomix --> mtm spring --> consumer grade headphone
Standard spring tank, shielded rca cords.
-Dry signal distorts badly. Goes away clockwise (wet) but still some transient distortion.
-wet signal, although a bit too quiet at full, is more noisy than in demoes. This noise is of smooth, constant character and varies with mix pot settings. The noise is about as loud as the reverb to my ears.
-tank is far away and rotated so that 'dirty' noise isn't a problem
-when the wire between send pcb and phono is within proximity of my finger, or worse, the case, there's the typical dirty noise added on top.
-tilt doesn't do a too dramatic difference, although that might be hid behind all the noise.
-rotated the multiturn a bit, didn't improve too much.
-there might be too much led on the rca send gnd connector, and the "in between disks cap" has its legs very close to each other.. But no visible contact. Can't detect other visible concerns at the moment.
sammy123
So I finally got arround to finishing this build. I am using a Mod 4eb2c1b tank. It's a long two spring, meduim decay unit. I did the calibration, but it is way to wet. At about 11 o'clock on the dial it starts to get very washed out and inarticulate. I am using a TH 555 and TH 4046 sine to test and have my EG set to produce short percussive tones. The pop of the attack is totally lost once the knob hits about noon-ish and the volums starts to drop significantly.

Any suggestions on particular components to check? I swapped the 5532 for a TL072 just for the heck of it, but could not really tell the difference. I am using a VTL5C3 with the 47K resistor.

Thank you
Stinktier86
Update on my problem: seems to do with output impedance. i plugged the music thing modular spring through.. an a-199 hihi which has a stereo out fit for headphones. and viola - dry distortion is gone along with noise problems.

i guess it is time i buy or build a decent back end mixer.
sammy123
So I think I had a bad component cable. Its working better now. I verified all vslues and reflowed the joints. It's still much quieter the wetter it gets.

sammy123 wrote:
So I finally got arround to finishing this build. I am using a Mod 4eb2c1b tank. It's a long two spring, meduim decay unit. I did the calibration, but it is way to wet. At about 11 o'clock on the dial it starts to get very washed out and inarticulate. I am using a TH 555 and TH 4046 sine to test and have my EG set to produce short percussive tones. The pop of the attack is totally lost once the knob hits about noon-ish and the volums starts to drop significantly.

Any suggestions on particular components to check? I swapped the 5532 for a TL072 just for the heck of it, but could not really tell the difference. I am using a VTL5C3 with the 47K resistor.

Thank you
sammy123
Since this tank needs to go back in my amp I ordered the recomended 3-spring model. We'll see what happens.

Also, just a side note. I replaced my z-rails with wood rails and this module got very noisy. So likely a ground issue, right? I'll just move it to my other rack to avoid this issue.

sammy123 wrote:
So I think I had a bad component cable. Its working better now. I verified all vslues and reflowed the joints. It's still much quieter the wetter it gets.

sammy123 wrote:
So I finally got arround to finishing this build. I am using a Mod 4eb2c1b tank. It's a long two spring, meduim decay unit. I did the calibration, but it is way to wet. At about 11 o'clock on the dial it starts to get very washed out and inarticulate. I am using a TH 555 and TH 4046 sine to test and have my EG set to produce short percussive tones. The pop of the attack is totally lost once the knob hits about noon-ish and the volums starts to drop significantly.

Any suggestions on particular components to check? I swapped the 5532 for a TL072 just for the heck of it, but could not really tell the difference. I am using a VTL5C3 with the 47K resistor.

Thank you
a100user
Must get around to building mine.
woodster
Are there still plans afoot to do an expander panel ?
Monobass
yep, expander is in the later stages of prototyping now
Stinktier86
I made my own expander (4hp, serves two modules) but will probably repurpose it if there's an official one coming out thumbs up
Starspawn
For the power input, can I just use 4004 (would just protect more?) and 10-22R instead of 4001 and fuse? That seems common and I have those. Everything else is populated and ready to go and Id rather not wait two weeks for parts if that will do.
For use with 15V
Monobass
Spring Reverb Kits are back in stock and lots of other stuff too

[u][color=blue]
Nantonos
Finished mine (been in the backlog for a while) yesterday. Brick works, spring needs to wait until I add case-mounted RCA connection.

Stinktier86 wrote:
I made my own expander (4hp, serves two modules) but will probably repurpose it if there's an official one coming out thumbs up

I made my own expander too - 0HP, serves one module smile downside is that the panel labeling is incorrect. meh

I got the front panel with panel-mount RCA, but will hook up the cables to the spring from the pads on the PCB. That gives me two spare holes on the front panel.

One of those holds a toggle switch which connects to the three-pin brick/spring header so I can switch between brick and spring. Second one holds another jack socket, the wet output goes there via a unity gain buffer made from 1/2 TL072, a 1k output resistor, 2 100nF decoupling caps and a tiny bit of perfboard.
el Nacho
I just finished building my kit. It works and sounds great. I still have some buzz on line due to the shitty cable but that I'll figure out. Also, the springtank will be built on top of the case. I'll ditch the metal housing for aesthetic reasons and accessibility to the springs.



This actually marks a very important moment in the life of my rack. The spring reverb was the first module I've chosen.
Monobass
Nice work el Nacho.

Are you sure the cable causes the buzz though? Does it decrease in volume if you hold the spring tank and move it as far away from any other electrical equipment?
el Nacho
well, the cables are shit and long and old. when I turn them in the spring tank's input, sometimes the noise breaks loose.

As for reducing the humm and everything, I've done the calibration and will do it again in some time, when I decide I know how it sounds. I'm not worried about that stuff because I can fix it, I'm happy that I didn't break it during assembly (I actually soldered an IC socket the wrong way but later sticked in the IC correctly)

Monobass wrote:
Nice work el Nacho.


no man you are the one who's done the nice work!

love the module. really like how it sits in my rack. but I have to go out on such a nice day. Will listen to some recordings of the spring in the sun nanners
Liquidyzer
Finished my build at the weekend, wouldn't say it's the easiest module I've made (seemed harder than the lXR drum machine I made a few weeks ago!) but fully functioning with a medium brick, will try out a spring tank as soon as I have the space.

Just trying to calibrate it but turning the screw on the blue tuner doesn't seem to do much? Any tips?
jgb
Liquidyzer wrote:
Just trying to calibrate it but turning the screw on the blue tuner doesn't seem to do much? Any tips?


Calibration is for the spring tank level when using a real tank, not needed with the digital brick.
Liquidyzer
jgb wrote:
Liquidyzer wrote:
Just trying to calibrate it but turning the screw on the blue tuner doesn't seem to do much? Any tips?


Calibration is for the spring tank level when using a real tank, not needed with the digital brick.


thumbs up
apoisontree
Hello,

does soemone have the detailed current draw on the +12 and -12v rails?
The manual gives the general power consumption (25ma with the spring, 75ma with the brick).
I'm planning on adding the module into a CrowBX kit and I might need another transformer.


Also, if I understand correctly, the extension module will add 2 plugs (dry out, 100% wet out), 1 switch (spring tank/digital brick) and 1 pot (feedback), is that correct?
Any info on the release date?

Thanks for your help.
Monobass
Just got the latest revision of expander boards through so we'll see how it goes.

It adds:

Analog/Digital switch (tank or brick)
100% wet output
Feedback loop with FX insert - send, return
Feedback loop phase invert switch

it's unashamedly an experimental drone monster SlayerBadger!
jgb
Oooooh, want!
apoisontree
Will there be a pot on the expansion to control the level of feedback ?
Monobass
apoisontree wrote:
Will there be a pot on the expansion to control the level of feedback ?


yup, two pots to control both the feedback and the blend with the wet signal.
Nantonos
Got around to making an RCA breakout panel for my case, soldered on a pair of PCB RCA jacks onto the music thing rear PCB. There are two short RCA-terminated flying leads from the back of the case breakout, which go to the music thing.

The reverb works, hum and hiss are acceptably low, but as others have noted the level decreases substantially as you go from dry to wet.

I haven't tried removing C1 or reducing it to a smaller value, as was suggested in the thread. The level drop seems similar when sending bass notes to the reverb or treble notes, so I don't think it is caused by low pass filtering.

I'm not hearing clipping distortion, so I will try the trimmer adjustment to increase drive to the spring.

Having a front-panel switch to go between brick and spring is very convenient.
PJ303
Hi all,

I've built mine (my first Eurorack module looking a little lonely) but I seem to have an issue and his want to check expected behaviour.

With the mix control set fully wet I still get dry signal at the output.
Is this normal/expected?
Tombola
PJ303 wrote:

With the mix control set fully wet I still get dry signal at the output.
Is this normal/expected?


Are you testing in the x-fader mode, or the spring reverb mode?

Which vactrol did you use, and which value for R7?
PJ303
Tombola wrote:
PJ303 wrote:

With the mix control set fully wet I still get dry signal at the output.
Is this normal/expected?


Are you testing in the x-fader mode, or the spring reverb mode?

Which vactrol did you use, and which value for R7?


I'm using a VTL5C3 and 47k as per the kit/instructions I did notice that the output jack socket was touching the ground expansion socket at the edge, bending I back seemed to help somewhat.
I've tested using the tank return (i.e. disconnecting) and also plugging a dummy lead into the x-fade in. I should note some of my leads are stereo type - I need to get some mono mini-jacks in case it's using some ring/sleeve connections to make the circuit.

Testing with the dummy input I recorded a -12dB drop moving from full dry to full wet.
Does the control knob have any effect with no CV input?
Any idea how to tell if I've fried the vactrol?

Thanks.
Tombola
PJ303 wrote:

I've tested using the tank return (i.e. disconnecting) and also plugging a dummy lead into the x-fade in. Testing with the dummy input I recorded a -12dB drop moving from full dry to full wet.
Any idea how to tell if I've fried the vactrol?




I first saw the crossfade circuit in this module in the Buchla Easel/208 where it controls the complex oscillator waveshape by fading between the sine and the waveshaped sine. (Apparently it originated in older vactrol datasheets)

It is a super simple circuit - really just the LDR in the vactrol and R7 - everything else is just buffering and control.

It doesn't fade down one signal while fading up another - you'd need two vactrols to do that. Instead, it uses the changing vactrol resistance to divert the output from one signal to another, a bit like a potentiometer.

So it's a crossfade, not a VCA - it will never 'close' with no input, but it will fade between two live inputs of roughly equal amplitude with acceptable levels of bleed.

Testing it with one live input and one dead/dummy input doesn't work - it will just give you a slight voltage drop.

Try it with two outputs from an oscillator - i.e. a square in the main input, a sine in the X-fade input (or whatever waveforms you choose). You should be able to hear reasonably smooth cross-fading between the two waveforms - sine vs square should sound pretty much like a low pass filter, as the many harmonics of the square fade away into the few (if any) harmonics of the sine. But there is no filtering happening, just cross-fading. That's how it works in the Easel.

David Brown has some analysis and tweaks on the Crossfade circuit
algo
The Accutronics 9EB2C1B Reverb Tank 17" Long is out of stock, would the TAD 9EB2C1B do the job?
Nordcore
algo wrote:
The Accutronics 9EB2C1B Reverb Tank 17" Long is out of stock, would the TAD 9EB2C1B do the job?


Sound and suspension might be a little different, but the tank has the same specs. It will work properly in the circuit and it will fit the same case/mounting.
algo
Thanks Nordcore, going to give the TAD a go smile
Nantonos
algo wrote:
The Accutronics 9EB2C1B Reverb Tank 17" Long is out of stock, would the TAD 9EB2C1B do the job?


Yes. I'm using the Tube Amp Doctor 9EB2C1B.
mystico
Anyone built one with the small blue accutronics tank yet?

Keen to know how it sounds.
jbi
I want to add a dual reverb to my 5U modular. Anyone got an fpd file that I can hack for the panel ?
Thanks, John
sduck
jbi wrote:
I want to add a dual reverb to my 5U modular. Anyone got an fpd file that I can hack for the panel ?
Thanks, John


Maybe this one? You can see my version of this back on page 35 of this thread
jbi
That looks perfect sduck, thanks
John
Tombola
mystico wrote:
Anyone built one with the small blue accutronics tank yet?

Keen to know how it sounds.


I built this stereo unit, which looks cool and sounds pretty OK - the aluminium box gives it the basic hum screening it lacks with the plastic enclosure

Downside for me was that it doesn't sound as good as the big long boxes (less hi-fi, narrower frequency range, less 'rich') and it feeds back really hard - just left on a shelf with normal room monitor volume - That's nothing to do with the tanks themselves, but the way I mounted them without any isolation - normal tanks have all the spring isolation built in.

robboten
Built mine now. Using 8BB3C1B and the doepfer tank 3BB2C1B (bought wrong pin-out digital tank). Sounds quite good but the dry won't go dry at all (too much reverb at all down). Trimpot gets it down a bit but with the cost of the wet signal, still not dry however. Any ideas where to start?

EDIT:
Doh... found it. I had soldered r16/r17 turned 90 degress. No wonder it didn't work as planned. Now all is well! Time for some tuning. Thanks for making this!
cleaninglady
Has anyone drawn up a stripboard diagram for building this one ?

I mean the type that graphically shows all the components and connections. I know this circumvents actually selling your product Tombola , I hope you don't mind my asking this here.

I just like to do simple stripboard stuff , especially in 4hp. w00t
snaper
cleaninglady wrote:
Has anyone drawn up a stripboard diagram for building this one ?

I mean the type that graphically shows all the components and connections. I know this circumvents actually selling your product Tombola , I hope you don't mind my asking this here.

I just like to do simple stripboard stuff , especially in 4hp. w00t

There is a stripboard layout for the "simple" reverb driver.
Thinking about building that one cause I have a vintage tank for it :S
cleaninglady
snaper wrote:

There is a stripboard layout for the "simple" reverb driver.
Thinking about building that one cause I have a vintage tank for it :S


Do you have a link for that snaper ?
EMwhite
Does anybody have any comments on a good 'performing' LED for this project? I say 'performing' because the LED that I used on the two that I built was, I think, part of a cart that I borrowed from someplace.

As it turned out, I was (as others have been) less than happy with the Mix of the cross-fader and after blowing an LED by shorting it like a dummy, I found that the Vactrol would not work anymore which made me think that forward voltage or some other aspect of the LED (mA consumption?) is in someway responsible for the vactrol affecting Mix. I've read a lot of comments about how it was difficult to get 100% wet, and yes I know there is a wet output.

In my case it could also be something I did wrong but I'm sure I'm not alone. The somewhat sad part is that I bought 6 sets of board with grand ideas of integrating into an Oberheim project, an MU CP Panel project etc and am only satisfied enough with the basic reverb.

I built Tom's prototype last year and it has massive drive and recover to the extent that it easily cranks into sonic madness, is negatively effected by EMF noise; that is expected.

Any comments would be helpful; I've asked about this in the past but don't recall seeing any feedback. If I bought the full kit and did it in the Euro panel, perhaps it would be better; I'm pretty good about picking components from Mouser and building but a bit lost for an answer on what should be a fairly simple issue.

Thank you in advance.
Monobass
sduck summed it up nicely here

sduck wrote:
Out of the box the mix control doesn't go 100% wet. This is apparently the result of a design compromise - you can have a mix control that fades in the reverb nice and evenly, but doesn't go 100% wet, or you can have it go to 100% (or closer to 100%) wet, but the fade range is much smaller and harder to control. You can change how this works by the value of R11 - it's 2.2K stock, but if you lower it the led in the vactrol (and the outboard one) light up more, which affects the mix. I experimented with lower values, but unless you're planning on using the X-fade function a lot, having better control over the mix wins out (for me at least), so I went back to the 2.2K.


if you want CV control of wet/dry then stick with the current design, if it's more important to you to have a manual crossfade between dry and fully wet then mix somewhere else.

There is a third way, you could use something like the J3RK Xfade board to do a fully wet/dry mix which is also CV controllable.

http://www.thonk.co.uk/shop/j3rk-fad3r-crossfadepan-panel-and-pcb-sets  /

As you can see though, that would have doubled the size and cost of of the Music Thing Spring Reverb.

EMwhite
Thanks, Steve; I 'll give that a go and report back.

I was fairly certain that it was something simple and a trade off, just wouldn't know what values to use/try. I've got the components here to build two more anew and will look to do so this weekend.

FYI: I still have the 2nd set of sockets that I either need to ship back to you or donate/ship to somebody in the U.S. that have ordered. (you were good enough to ship me the 2nd set and then the 1st set showed up via Brian). Send me a PM and let me know what to do with them pls.
snaper
cleaninglady wrote:
snaper wrote:

There is a stripboard layout for the "simple" reverb driver.
Thinking about building that one cause I have a vintage tank for it :S


Do you have a link for that snaper ?


https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36048&start=all&post days=0&postorder=asc

At the end and the middle of the thread.
southphillysynths
Just got this during the sale, and whipped it up this afternoon, in testing led lights and responds with the wet/dry knob but no signal at all and no kick from reverb springs if I hit the tank.

Any ideas? hmmm.....

Edit: reflowed, and checked polarity on everything, I can't think of anything wrong. Also bent up the jacks so they wouldn't short to the board...

Edit: Edit: So I forgot C1 very frustrating very frustrating very frustrating very frustrating very frustrating very frustrating very frustrating

Now that that is in I'm getting signal through and reverb sound, it's very quite and it sounds like there is white noise mixed in with the signal, distorting the output. It sounds like the reverb is self oscillating somehow?
Monobass
southphillysynths do you have a Thonk panel? With RCA's on front or back?
southphillysynths
Yep I have the back mount music thing panel.
Monobass
ok pics of both sides of both boards would help now. What you're describing sounds like issues that people had with both the jacks not being modified (which you have done, but double check) but also when then is somehow a short between the ground/sleeves of the RCA jacks... what tank are you using exactly? If you have a multimeter can you check if there is continuity across both the RCA grounds on the module, but also on your tank.
southphillysynths
So I have an acoustatronics tank I grabbed from my guitar amp.







So one more extremely stupid question... how do I check continuity? Check resistance between the contacts?
sammy123
For continuity usually digital multimeters will have a setting that beeps when there is continuity. On my Extech I select the diode setting and then press a select button to switch to continuity mode.
Monobass
Does the tank have a name or serial number?

You can also kind of test continuity with the ohm meter. You'd expect it to be either a very high value... or the same as the meter displays when the probes aren't on anything and aren't touching.

But we might be able to do this from the tank name or serial.
southphillysynths
Serial number is 4eb2c1b.

I think I have continuity with the tank, nothing shows up when I tested the tank across all ohm ranges.

Same with the module jacks on the module...
Monobass
southphillysynths wrote:
Serial number is 4eb2c1b.

I think I have continuity with the tank, nothing shows up when I tested the tank across all ohm ranges.

Same with the module jacks on the module...


4eb2c1b should be fine

Sorry but I'm not really sure what you've tested exactly and what results you've got though.. can you elaborate?

If you check continuity across the outer part of the two RCA jacks soldered to the PCB what result do you get?
southphillysynths
If I set my dvm to diode or resistance, I don't get a reading from the tank meaning it is ok right?

I just tested the jacks and on the pcb and I do get a reading of about 960 on the diode setting, meaning that something is wrong there right?
Monobass
southphillysynths wrote:
If I set my dvm to diode or resistance, I don't get a reading from the tank meaning it is ok right?

I just tested the jacks and on the pcb and I do get a reading of about 960 on the diode setting, meaning that something is wrong there right?


but testing where exactly on the tank and jacks?
southphillysynths
I get a reading on the outside of the jacks on the pcb and not inside. I get no reading on either part of the jacks on the tank.
Monobass
southphillysynths wrote:
I get a reading on the outside of the jacks on the pcb and not inside. I get no reading on either part of the jacks on the tank.


ok gotcha, so you have a short somewhere on your PCB I think, you should see zero continuity or infinite resistance between the outsides of the RCA/phono jacks on PCB.

I won't be able to reference my module until sometime tomorrow now.. but do you see continuity between either of the RCA jack shrouds and the main module ground? (i.e. middle six pins on the power connector)
southphillysynths
I'm getting a reading between the outside of the right RCA on the pcb and the ground on the power connector. Do I need to reflow that joint? Does this mean the jacks aren't grounded properly?
panomega
Tombola wrote:
zardoz wrote:
Has anyone tried using the blue Accutronics tank the Metasonix R-56 uses?


I have a couple - they work OK, sound OK, but I'm not sure you can buy them anywhere but direct from Accutronics.

Two downsides - they seem to pick up more hum than traditional tanks, perhaps because they are entirely plastic so don't have the shielding, and they need to be carefully mounted to avoid feedback, because they don't have the spring isolators you see in traditional tanks. I had two mounted in a hammond box (for shielding) sat on a shelf, and they'd feedback at pretty low levels.

One upside: skiffable real spring reverb:



Hello Tombola, just got two of those blue tanks. On the picture we can not see how you fixed them to the board. Green, red, black wire to ?
Did you solder some mâle plugs to the board?
How are those plugs called in electronics parts shops?
Thanks
panomega
panomega wrote:
Tombola wrote:
zardoz wrote:
Has anyone tried using the blue Accutronics tank the Metasonix R-56 uses?


I have a couple - they work OK, sound OK, but I'm not sure you can buy them anywhere but direct from Accutronics.

Two downsides - they seem to pick up more hum than traditional tanks, perhaps because they are entirely plastic so don't have the shielding, and they need to be carefully mounted to avoid feedback, because they don't have the spring isolators you see in traditional tanks. I had two mounted in a hammond box (for shielding) sat on a shelf, and they'd feedback at pretty low levels.

One upside: skiffable real spring reverb:



Hello Tombola, just got two of those blue tanks. On the picture we can not see how you fixed them to the board. Green, red, black wire to ?
Did you solder some mâle plugs to the board?
How are those plugs called in electronics parts shops?
Thanks


Got it & everything's work fine!
Igor Berlin
will the big Intellijel tank work? It's a Accutronics 9BB2C1B.
KNYST
Monobass wrote:
Just got the latest revision of expander boards through so we'll see how it goes.

It adds:

Analog/Digital switch (tank or brick)
100% wet output
Feedback loop with FX insert - send, return
Feedback loop phase invert switch

it's unashamedly an experimental drone monster SlayerBadger!

This expander can't come soon enough love
Any news?

Cheers
livefreela
that's the one dude - if the the joint is touching the jack body you're shorting it out. see if you can flow that down so there's no short. it's really tight in there. EDIT whoops, didn't see you sorted it out, sorry!
KNYST
KNYST wrote:
Monobass wrote:
Just got the latest revision of expander boards through so we'll see how it goes.

It adds:

Analog/Digital switch (tank or brick)
100% wet output
Feedback loop with FX insert - send, return
Feedback loop phase invert switch

it's unashamedly an experimental drone monster SlayerBadger!

This expander can't come soon enough love
Any news?

Cheers


WANT! Dead Banana
337is
I too, am eager for expander! It's peanut butter jelly time!
moonbase3
Hello fellow wigglers,

I'd love to pick your amazing brains to see if you guys can find the fix.

I've been having fun with the spring for quite a few months and suddenly, it stopped working after I added Mikrophonie and Manhattan Analog VCA. I may have done something wrong when I was testing the VCA as I saw a little spark during the calibration and the spring module was right next to it but anyway, here's what I found.

Everything except "TILT" works as it should be. The tilt now acts as a very steep fixed frequency High-pass filter when it's turned CW and when turned CCW, there are no output at all. It just doesn't pass below certain frequency (which I presume is the centre frequency of the tilt EQ). Pretty much nothing except really high frequency has been sent to the tank so the reverb coming back from the tank is almost non-existent.

I've tried taking off all the new module I added and I've checked and reflowed all the soldered points but no luck.

Could anyone suggest what to do please? Many thank you in advance!
oootini
anyone - what kind of switch do i need to change between the tank and brick? spdt on - on , spdt on -off -on?
medbot
I believe it should be a spdt on-on, at least that's what mine is. I've had my module for several months now with both the tank and the brick and I don't think I've used the brick once, am I alone on that? It sounds good, but the big spring tank just sounds so much sweeter. It'd be cool to have the switch go between different sized tanks instead of the brick, I wonder how tough that'd be to set up.
oootini
brick is ok i think! has it's place.

i've added a spdt on-on switch and now the tank isn't working at all. very strange. the switch to the tank works fine.

i found a quote from tom earlier in the thread saying the switch needed was a on-off-on switch, so not sure now if the on-on i have is right or not...
oootini
or if i've wired it incorrectly. can't see how i could have three lugs on the switch , three pins. middle lug to the middle pin. no?
Starspawn
Yes, and on/on is right.
Switches are simple, middle is one side and switch chooses between either end as the other side.
Tombola
moonbase3 wrote:
I saw a little spark during the calibration


It's hard to tell what you might have blown up.

One quick easy test would be to replace the op amp chips + before you do that use a multimeter to check that the correct voltages are coming through to the op amps
Tombola
oootini wrote:

i found a quote from tom earlier in the thread saying the switch needed was a on-off-on switch, so not sure now if the on-on i have is right or not...


Re: Switches, I think for this you need an ON-NONE-ON - i.e. a two position switch
Tombola
medbot wrote:
It'd be cool to have the switch go between different sized tanks instead of the brick, I wonder how tough that'd be to set up.


The switching wouldn't be particularly difficult (ideally you'd switch all four lines too and from the tank at once - using a 4PDT switch).

You might find the different output levels from different tanks made it a bit hard to use.
moonbase3
Thanks Tombola! I'll try to get the reading. Hope it's just a chip.


Tombola wrote:
moonbase3 wrote:
I saw a little spark during the calibration


It's hard to tell what you might have blown up.

One quick easy test would be to replace the op amp chips + before you do that use a multimeter to check that the correct voltages are coming through to the op amps
thelizard
KNYST wrote:
KNYST wrote:
Monobass wrote:
Just got the latest revision of expander boards through so we'll see how it goes.

It adds:

Analog/Digital switch (tank or brick)
100% wet output
Feedback loop with FX insert - send, return
Feedback loop phase invert switch

it's unashamedly an experimental drone monster SlayerBadger!

This expander can't come soon enough love
Any news?

Cheers


WANT! Dead Banana


Agreed! Any news on the expander?
Hemmerlinj
I've made my own expander for 2 Spring Reverb modules. I used a Pittsburgh Modular mult that I wasn't using. I broke off the top half of the board on the mult and installed the switches in the empty holes on the plate. I want to add a breakout for the reverb tanks, but only have 2 more holes. I was thinking of trying an 1/8 inch TRS plug to Stereo RCA. I guess the send and receive for each tank would have to share the negative(or is it a ground) lead. Not sure if this is possible with this circuit. I'm not the best with trouble shooting and hacking circuits. Only good at following directions to build them.

Any thoughts?
Tombola
Hemmerlinj wrote:
I guess the send and receive for each tank would have to share the negative(or is it a ground) lead. Not sure if this is possible with this circuit.


That probably won't work well - you really need 4 wires going to the reverb tank, not 3.
Nantonos
Power draw is listed as
Quote:
Power consumption: Around 25 ma (spring) or
75ma (brick)


With just the spring, does that mean 25mA on -12V as well?

With the brick, which is a 5V device, the extra 50mA is on +12V only so -12V is still 25mA?

(Asking for ModularGrid goodness)
clive.grace
Hi there, I made a mistake with the Music Thing Spring reverb and fitted the Vacrrol the wrong way around (it was late, I was tired...never fitted a vactrol before)

...Anyway rather than cut the wire, flip it over and solder wire to wire I removed it from the board and pulled the pcb trace right at the edge of the board, I cannot see where the traces lead to so I was wondering if some kind soul could tell me where to pick up the broken tracks from both pins?

Picture file added
wired
I'm joining this party soon. Thanks Tom & Thonk Rockin' Banana!
Starspawn
@Clive
The full documentation is online
http://musicthing.co.uk/modular/?page_id=579

Schematic says diodes are in series, so from the cathode (-) on led to anode (+) on vactrol. Cathode on vactrol is connected to top of near 3904.
Then on other side, one leg is connected to the xfade in, while the other is connected to the point where R7 before audio in buffer point, pin 12 of IC1D (TL074) and a 1NF cap going to ground meet.

Not so sure which is which of the two on the other side, but youll surely see it on the PCB.
ac
Just had a quick build of the reverb module, but maybe a little too quick: it's not quite working.

Audio passes from the In to the Out without any reverb, controls make no difference. I started by adjusting the trimmer on the back, with no change. Also, I built it with the brick and not the tank.

The LED doesn't light either but I can confirm that it's not in backwards, by probing it with a little bit of voltage. The vactrol is also positioned correctly. I wonder though if it's related to the 3904:

Tombola wrote:

The LED and vactrol are controlled by the 3904, with R11 going to ground and the ends of R31, R33 and R10 providing the summed control voltage from the knob and CV inputs. If the LED never lights, then something is likely significantly wrong.

Have you checked the orientation of the vactrol? - I guess that would really confuse the circuit if it was the wrong way round.


My kit from Thonk came with a second 3904 but I think there was only one location to use one, is this part sensitive enough that it may be damaged enough on installation that a second one was included with the kit? How could I test to see if it's okay?

I wonder where to look next. Any ideas?

Thanks!
Andy
Starspawn
Did you use the jumper for choosing brick?
thelizard
ac wrote:
Just had a quick build of the reverb module, but maybe a little too quick: it's not quite working.

Audio passes from the In to the Out without any reverb, controls make no difference. I started by adjusting the trimmer on the back, with no change. Also, I built it with the brick and not the tank.

The LED doesn't light either but I can confirm that it's not in backwards, by probing it with a little bit of voltage. The vactrol is also positioned correctly. I wonder though if it's related to the 3904:

Tombola wrote:

The LED and vactrol are controlled by the 3904, with R11 going to ground and the ends of R31, R33 and R10 providing the summed control voltage from the knob and CV inputs. If the LED never lights, then something is likely significantly wrong.

Have you checked the orientation of the vactrol? - I guess that would really confuse the circuit if it was the wrong way round.


My kit from Thonk came with a second 3904 but I think there was only one location to use one, is this part sensitive enough that it may be damaged enough on installation that a second one was included with the kit? How could I test to see if it's okay?

I wonder where to look next. Any ideas?

Thanks!
Andy


One is a 3904, the other is a voltage regulator for the brick. They look very similar. You may have put the wrong one in each spot.
ac
Starspawn wrote:
Did you use the jumper for choosing brick?


Yep, I tried the jumper in all combinations.


thelizard wrote:

One is a 3904, the other is a voltage regulator for the brick. They look very similar. You may have put the wrong one in each spot.


My kit actually came with two 3904's and one 78L05, I just double checked and the two that I soldered to the boards were the correct ones but I have an extra 3904 from the kit.
Lachlan C.
Just finished the kit from Thonk (via rhythm active in AUS) on the weekend.



I'm yet to test out but will be using a 8EB2C1B tank.

Thanks Tom and Thonk!
Monobass
Hi Andy,

Sorry for the confusion, I accidentally shipped some kits with two 3904s instead of one.

I have a crazy day of shipping ahead of me, but I'll take a look at what you wrote later.

Checking that you don't have continuity between +12v and gnd, -12v and gnd would be a good start. It sounds like you might have an accidental short somewhere to me.

good clear photos of both sides of both PCBs will get us to a solution quickest probably.

Steve
Thonk
ac
Okay thanks for the clarification on the 3904, I'll start checking for shorts.
ac
It really was just a short, I got things working and I'll be more careful next time smile Thanks again Steve and Tom
clive.grace
Finished mine with signature ally knobs and White LED (slight overhang to the xfade knob but that's ok, plenty of builds have nothing there)


Monday morning starts with echooooooo by c-g., on Flickr

Backlog lowered by one. 8 partially built and 8 bare PCBs to go.
mwvm
It's a beautiful module!!!

2 hour build worth it. Guinness ftw!
Logite
how do i know the tilt pot is working? i put the output up to my scope and turned it a few times, it doesnt seem to really do anything :p

im not sure what really to do here
sduck
run some noise into the unit, turn up mix knob all the way, or use the dedicated reverb out if you've implemented it, and twist the tilt EQ pot. There should be a really noticeable change. If not, double check your wiring, check for solder bridges and cold solders, the usual.
Logite
for some reason i didnt have the ne5532 soldered just pinned

..what the hell
cleaninglady
Has anyone used this with the 8EB2C1B ?

Can anyone compare the response between 8EB2C1B and
the recommended 9EB2C1B spring unit ?
wired
Love my Music Thing Spring Reverb, I've built one with both reverbs (digital brick and analog spring). Is so much better sounding than the A199 thumbs up thumbs up

Thanks for this one, looking forward to other projects/modules Guinness ftw!
snaper
I've built 2 too.
One for a big tank, one for a small blue smile
MikkelM
Have just started to build this, and figured out that my reverb-tank has an 10 ohm input impedance. Reading the documentation this will cause problems, so is there a way to increase the input impedance?

Ahh! has now found a big NO in the middle of this thread..
Monobass
cleaninglady wrote:
Has anyone used this with the 8EB2C1B ?

Can anyone compare the response between 8EB2C1B and
the recommended 9EB2C1B spring unit ?


I think the 8EB21C1B is very similar or identical to the one shipped with the Doepfer unit? If so then I honestly found the difference between the two tanks you mention incredibly subtle and would happily use either as if they were the same tank.
AndreasKlang
Wow! So happy! These kinds of threads was exactly what i hoped to find here! Great work! smile
MikkelM
Ahhh! Glad the forum is up. Here was all the info I was looking for.

Has changed R11 to 1K instead of 2.2K and has got (for me) a way better crossfading effect. I also changed the TL072 in the spring driver circuit to an 5532, and has a good result driving an Belton RBL3AB3C1B. LLLOOOOOOONG reverb.

Cheers

Mikkel
ray
I used the RV-9EB2C1B 9EB2C1B sold by TAD.
Sounds great and has the perfect width (about 40 cm) for a standard eurorack.
Tombola
MikkelM wrote:
Ahhh! Glad the forum is up. Here was all the info I was looking for.

Has changed R11 to 1K instead of 2.2K and has got (for me) a way better crossfading effect. I also changed the TL072 in the spring driver circuit to an 5532, and has a good result driving an Belton RBL3AB3C1B. LLLOOOOOOONG reverb.

Cheers

Mikkel


Copied this to relevant thread in the issue list: https://github.com/TomWhitwell/SpringReverb/issues/4
Tombola
Logite wrote:
how do i know the tilt pot is working? i put the output up to my scope and turned it a few times, it doesnt seem to really do anything :p

im not sure what really to do here


It's pretty obvious if it's working - turn the top pot to maximum wet with the spring in place, and you should be able to hear a pretty clear tone shift between bass boost / flat / top boost as you turn the pot
Trihoma
HI! I finished the module and everything works fine except the dry/wet crossfader. I tried not to overheat it, but may be I destroed the vactrol? may be something else?
lms.ktp
Tombola wrote:
Logite wrote:
how do i know the tilt pot is working? i put the output up to my scope and turned it a few times, it doesnt seem to really do anything :p

im not sure what really to do here


It's pretty obvious if it's working - turn the top pot to maximum wet with the spring in place, and you should be able to hear a pretty clear tone shift between bass boost / flat / top boost as you turn the pot


Does it work with the brick, too? It seems that I do have a similar problem as the pot does not change a lot if anything confused
Tombola
lms.ktp wrote:
Tombola wrote:
Logite wrote:
how do i know the tilt pot is working? i put the output up to my scope and turned it a few times, it doesnt seem to really do anything :p

im not sure what really to do here


It's pretty obvious if it's working - turn the top pot to maximum wet with the spring in place, and you should be able to hear a pretty clear tone shift between bass boost / flat / top boost as you turn the pot


Does it work with the brick, too? It seems that I do have a similar problem as the pot does not change a lot if anything confused


Yes, it works with the brick.

The sound you're pushing through would have to have some high/low frequency content - i.e. not a sine wave - that's why sduck suggests testing with white noise, if you have it available in your system.
lms.ktp
Thank you for clarification! Works like a charm SlayerBadger!
robbert
Any news on when that expander comes out?
monads
Finished mine about a week ago! Works perfect and sounds good. I went with the brick option and 6 pin female header so I can swap them out 8_)
muckmires
I built mine with the brick and couldn't be happier! When I get
the room, I'll get a tank and see what that sounds like.
Great project!
algo
In my late night haste I broke one of the stereo 3.5mm jacks zombie . Where can I find a replacement?

monads
Thonk sells them! So you can order the jacks/nuts. Too bad you're not US based, or else I'd send you some.
algo
Oh yeah, not sure how I missed them! Will use the rest for my benjolin thumbs up
algo
Another component I need to replace after my night of wreckage! Is this http://uk.farnell.com/harwin/m20-7820546/socket-pcb-0-1-5way/dp/799194 0 the same as the 5 pin female socket on step 12 of thonk instructions?
batchas
EDIT: deleted. I will make a more specific thread for my question.
batchas
I got no signal at the output of the Accutronics 9EB2C1B reverb tank.
If I scope the 3 pins of the white cinch a the input of the tank, the input signal is present on the 3 pins!
Any suggestion?


On the board, the signal is coming out on snd_ring, no on snd_tip. Is it normal?
batchas
Ooh.. I get a reverb signal on the wet_out!
batchas
batchas wrote:
I got no signal at the output of the Accutronics 9EB2C1B reverb tank.
If I scope the 3 pins of the white cinch a the input of the tank, the input signal is present on the 3 pins!
Any suggestion?


On the board, the signal is coming out on snd_ring, no on snd_tip. Is it normal?

All seems ok so. I found out what my prob was. I did not expected the reverb signal out to come on the 3.5" plug pad (in green here). I expected the signal out on the pad at the extremity of the board (red).
I'm using bananas, that's why I connected automatically to the extremity pads.


EDIT: I think I'm writing some nonsense and that the pin at the extremity should be ok. The Mix pin should be the output, controlled by the Dry/Wet pot I think and I guess I don't get any signal here because my vactrol is not placed like it should (Macron). The Dry/Wet pot does not fade the reverb signal when turned CW. So I'm gonna check this vactrol story.
skander
Hello batchas,

I did the same mistake... very frustrating
Also, I don't know if it can help you, but the x-fade is a switched jack, so if you need both, the crossfader and the reverb function of this module with banana jack, I think you need to add a manual switch.
batchas
skander wrote:
Hello batchas,

I did the same mistake... very frustrating
Also, I don't know if it can help you, but the x-fade is a switched jack, so if you need both, the crossfader and the reverb function of this module with banana jack, I think you need to add a manual switch.

Thanx thumbs up

I get no reverb at the mix out and it confuses me. I'll read tomorrow more in detail this thread and the meanings of the different of the in/outs + normalizations going on here.
ym2612
Folks using a small blue tank, do you have any demos? And does anybody know how the Springray attaches to the small tank? I have a kit on the way, and I'm wondering whether I should just strip the included wires and solder them up to RCA plugs.
ym2612
To answer my own question: It looks like the pads on the PCB for the front-panel RCA connectors are spaced at 2.54mm, which is perfect for soldering in Molex MTA connectors for the small spring cables. I'll try that.
batchas
I changed the vactrols for VCTL3. Same result. I got all working except that the blend is not working. I am using bananas and I'd be very thankful if someone could explain how to get an output where I can hear the blend from dry to wet.

On the board I can connect to a pin where I get the reverb out (in green), or to another where I get the EQ out ("mix out").

But no out with Blend. If I turn the Blend pot, the LED goes from off to light on, so the Blend pot + LED seems ok. I only miss the output where I can hear what the pot does.
batchas
So I read 2/3rd of the thread (!). And did not find the solution.
I know now that MIX OUT should be like I thought the wet-to-dry output.

I read that taylor12k had the same prob if I understand well:
@ taylor12k: did you find the solution to your prob?


Does anyone has a clue where I should look at if everything's work except the wet-to-dry OUT? Any component?
I have only TL072 + 1 x TL074 in my build. I changed them 3 times, so I don't think these are the issue.

I'm gonna trace this evening the all circtuit. Maybe you have a tip specific to the wet-to-dry out and where I should look at...
Vacrols are new so this can't be the issue either.
I'm gonna build also he second one and see how it does.

Could the banana be a prob? I mean a lack of normalization somewhere maybe?

THANX IN ADVANCE!
Tombola
batchas wrote:


Could the banana be a prob? I mean a lack of normalization somewhere maybe?

THANX IN ADVANCE!


There is a crucial bit of normalisation - it should be obvious in the block diagram in the documentation.

http://musicthing.co.uk/modular/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Spring_2_1_ Documentation.pdf



X-fade In is a switched jack that routes either the reverb, or an external input, to the Vactrol crossfader.

That sounds like it is your problem. You'd need a switch, or to sacrifice external x-fade in.
mwvm
I put this in my valve amp fx return and it sounded beautiful.

Thinking of building one just for my amp.

How much tweaking is required for a +- 4.5v rail realisation?
batchas
Tombola wrote:
it should be obvious in the block diagram in the documentation.

http://musicthing.co.uk/modular/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Spring_2_1_ Documentation.pdf

It should yeah.
Thank you for your help thumbs up
Now I know I can stop swap or unsolder all components like an idiot.
batchas
I should have thought that the X-FADE input needs normalization, so that when nothing is plugged in, the signal coming from the reverb is flowing and a the contrary the signal is broken when something is plugged into.
I only thought: oh.. I have nothing plugged in, why is it nor working?
Tsss...

Anyway! Thanks again Tombola!

Banana or no banana, that is the question.
nullpunkt
Here is mine...





Love it. Sounds good with the brick!
batchas
the83 wrote:
Just finished my first build yesterday. Loving this guy so far. Here's my first jam with it.

[s]http://soundcloud.com/theronhumiston/spring-music[/s]

It's pretty noisy with a tank mounted inside of my case. I'm going to build two more for my other case—those two will get external tanks.

It sounds awesome (not only the reverb)!

It was asked before, but I could not find the answer: what tank are you using in your jam the83?
batchas
Oh yeah! Something I forgot to ask too here:
I never used the polyfuse before. I had 2 only for my first reverb build.
Is there anything standard I could take as replacement on my 2nd build?
Tombola
batchas wrote:
Oh yeah! Something I forgot to ask too here:
I never used the polyfuse before. I had 2 only for my first reverb build.
Is there anything standard I could take as replacement on my 2nd build?


You can just use a wire in place of the fuse - you will lose reverse polarity protection, so you can also skip the big diodes in the power section.

DON'T replace the diodes with wire, just leave them empty!
makers
Tombola wrote:
makers wrote:
One of us had a small spring tank in the bottom of a Bento Box. I had a large external tank sitting on my table beside pedals and mixer, etc. I used a one axis of a joystick to mix Wet and Dry. Loads of Fun.

Thanks again for an excellent DIY opportunity!


Good to know it worked OK in a live environment - I've never tested it beyond turning up the speakers a bit in my workshop/shed. That little unit you can see in the PDF documentation - two little blue springs in a hammond box - is completely un-isolated so feeds back at the first possible opportunity, but the big tanks are much more forgiving.


I've been meaning to update this post.

In late January I performed in a 220 seat auditorium. I had one 9" tank out on the table. I definitely had feedback problems with that set-up in the larger venue. I also had a 16" tank inside a Monorocket style case- no feedback problems there.
robbert
I need some help with the module and the digital brick.

How would I attach the digital brick if I have that "female header" soldered? Solder it, too? Then why have this female header in the first place? Unfortunately the doc shows no picture of this :despair: and I am clueless :oops:

Thx :tu:
SMonk
I have managed to break my module somehow. It was working fine for months, but yesterday, for no apparent reason, the input started to misbehave. Anything sent through the x-fade jack sounds fine, but the in jack makes everything loud and extremely noisy. Does anyone have any idea what might have happened (and how to fix it)?

Since it happens to anything going through the in jack, both with and without something plugged into the x-fade jack, i'm guessing it's not something in the actual reverb circuit. Could i have fried the vactrol, or one of the IC's?
batchas
SMonk wrote:
I have managed to break my module somehow. It was working fine for months, but yesterday, for no apparent reason, the input started to misbehave. Anything sent through the x-fade jack sounds fine, but the in jack makes everything loud and extremely noisy. Does anyone have any idea what might have happened (and how to fix it)?

Since it happens to anything going through the in jack, both with and without something plugged into the x-fade jack, i'm guessing it's not something in the actual reverb circuit. Could i have fried the vactrol, or one of the IC's?

Did you check the trimmer in the back?
Is it possible that the trimmer setting changed, by touching it or swapping modules in your case maybe?

You could notice the screw position (to set it back if it has no influence after turning it) and turn the screw CCW. Does it affects the output?
SMonk
batchas wrote:
Did you check the trimmer in the back?
Is it possible that the trimmer setting changed, by touching it or swapping modules in your case maybe?

You could notice the screw position (to set it back if it has no influence after turning it) and turn the screw CCW. Does it affects the output?


Turns out it was the TL074 that had been fried somehow. Replaced it, and now everything works again.
Nantonos
robbert wrote:
I need some help with the module and the digital brick.

How would I attach the digital brick if I have that "female header" soldered? Solder it, too? Then why have this female header in the first place? Unfortunately the doc shows no picture of this seriously, i just don't get it and I am clueless oops


The pins on the brick will slot into the female header (no soldering). That is what I did on mine.
ym2612
Finished my build, and it's working great, though I wish shops like AH and Rhythm Active would list explicitly which panel color was in the kit. I ended up with one black and one white, when I really wanted aluminum. I need to make sure to buy Music Thing kits when they're readily available from Thonk.

Anyway, I hooked up the small blue tank using Molex connectors that I soldered into the contacts for the front panel jacks. These fit perfectly, but they don't hold the tank cables particularly securely:

http://www.newark.com/molex/22-11-2022/wire-board-connector-header-2/d p/55H9825

And the little blue tank sounds great! I'm really pleased with it and with the sound of the module, after the murkiness of the A-199. The sound is distinct and clear. And I'm glad the crossfader is available to be patched as a separate vactrol VCA of sorts.

I used the little tank on this patch:

[s]http://soundcloud.com/ym2612/patch-march-17[/s]
Tombola
ym2612 wrote:


I used the little tank on this patch:

[s]http://soundcloud.com/ym2612/patch-march-17[/s]


R2D2!
batchas
Noobie question about polyfuses:

As I'd like to place an order at Tayda today and profit from the current discount, I thought I'd replace the wires/jumpers I have in place of the polyfuses with the right components.

On one side, I think the exact values for the polyfuses shouldn't really matter, as they are here to protect the circuit from inverting polarity while connecting to power, and on the other hand I'm not even 100% sure if these one will be really ok, compared to Mouser polyfuses from the BOM.

Other ones are available at Tayda, maybe you see a better choice you could recommend?

Thank you very much in advance for your help!
batchas
batchas wrote:
Noobie question about polyfuses...

I'll order them and see.
Blootaka
Got my kit in the mail today and I'm very excited!

I was wondering though, some of the parts in the Thonk kit are labeled Spring, Brick, Spring Only, Brick Only.

They each seam to have their own spot. I'm possibly going to have a switch later to switch between the spring and brick tank so I'm guessing it's safe to just solder these all on?
jgb
Yep, solder everything. Works fine. smile
Blootaka
Thank you! Soldered everything up, worked right away!

Very nice!!
Bogus
I'm getting a couole of these pre built shortly and already would like to add a voltage controlled switch jack for flipping between the spring and emulation. Has anyone tried that yet or know how to build a simple circuit to do that with this module?
Dicky
Hi guys,

I really need some help. Built two - one is perfect - the other powers up (led), passes dry signal, and cross faded well (with cv too) but there's no reverb..

Haven't mixed up the transisters, the tanks/cables are fine and soldering looks reasonably ok (definitely rushed more than the first though).

How can I diagnose the problem?
Dicky
..I tried re-flowing everything and now it's gone mental.. Even without a tank plugged in the wet signal is a heavily distorted and noisey v seriously, i just don't get it ersion of the dry input. seriously, i just don't get it
thelizard
Dicky wrote:
..I tried re-flowing everything and now it's gone mental.. Even without a tank plugged in the wet signal is a heavily distorted and noisey v seriously, i just don't get it ersion of the dry input. seriously, i just don't get it


Have you adjusted the trimmer on the back? When it's low, there's no reverb in the mix. When it's high, there's tons of distortion/clipping.
Dicky
Hi, thanks. I tried adjusting the trimmer, doesn't seem to do anything. It seems weird there's any wet signal at all without a tank plugged in.. Is this normal?
Tombola
Dicky wrote:
..I tried re-flowing everything and now it's gone mental.. Even without a tank plugged in the wet signal is a heavily distorted and noisey v seriously, i just don't get it ersion of the dry input. seriously, i just don't get it


That suggests it's definitely a soldering problem - check for bad joints + check orientation of ICs and transistors. Don't bother testing it without the spring - it's an integral part of the circuit and you'll get very weird behaviour when it's not connected.
Tombola
In case you missed it over in the Euro forum, here's a (untested) post about the possibility of using the brick connections as a stompbox interface...

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1885293#1885293
ben jah men
Hey Dicky. I'm having a similar problem. Did you get yours sorted?

If I lift the spring tank and drop it 5mm or so I get a short burst of noise distortion.. but other than that it seems nothing is coming from the tank.

hmmm.....

orientation wise.. the little dot on the small IC's goes towards the printed notch on the PCB's yes?

And if I (absurdly) soldered in the IC socket backwards.. but have the IC facing correctly that shouldn't have any effect correct?
Monobass
ben jah men wrote:
And if I (absurdly) soldered in the IC socket backwards.. but have the IC facing correctly that shouldn't have any effect correct?


ben jah men, the orientation of the socket doesn't matter.. other than making it more likely you'll put it in the wrong way in the future smile

ben jah men wrote:
orientation wise.. the little dot on the small IC's goes towards the printed notch on the PCB's yes?


Yes that's right, did you not follow the build doc?

http://thonk.co.uk/documents/springreverb/Spring_Reverb_v0.91.pdf

If you are having operation problems then take particular note of steps 14 and 35 as those can be show stoppers.. and it does sound like perhaps you have a short to ground somewhere.

If you're not getting anywhere then next stage is to post good photos of both sides of both your PCBs, well lit & in focus.
ben jah men
d'oh!

Wow. Nope.. Sure didn't see that build doc. I built mine off of what was included in the user guide.

The good news is that it sounds like I may only need to take the jacks off and clip that tab. Same for the Pots.

The vactrol rests ON the OCB? A mm gap is a bad thing yes?
Monobass
as long as the vactrol is in the right way round you should be fine, the requirement for it to be flat to the PCB is more about getting the panel on, it's fine if the panel touches it also.

Did you buy from Thonk? You should have got a link to the build doc in your order completed email.
ben jah men
I ordered from Control. I went to the link supplied.. Which was just the website for the module. Scrolled down and I must have not looked hard enough.
AlanP
Sounds like you need to audioprobe the circuit, start from the audio in jack and work your way through the circuit till you find where your signal dies.
337is
Monobass wrote:
Just got the latest revision of expander boards through so we'll see how it goes.

It adds:

Analog/Digital switch (tank or brick)
100% wet output
Feedback loop with FX insert - send, return
Feedback loop phase invert switch

it's unashamedly an experimental drone monster SlayerBadger!


I'm still hoping that this will become a reality. Any word on a possible release?
dirkwiggler
337is wrote:
Monobass wrote:
Just got the latest revision of expander boards through so we'll see how it goes.

It adds:

Analog/Digital switch (tank or brick)
100% wet output
Feedback loop with FX insert - send, return
Feedback loop phase invert switch

it's unashamedly an experimental drone monster SlayerBadger!


I'm still hoping that this will become a reality. Any word on a possible release?


Also very keen for this we're not worthy
Mr. Enjin
Question, I got most everything for this but didn't realize until after I ordered a missing pot from Mouser that the pots in the Thonk BOM have a wider collar that don't fit through the holes in the PCB faceplate from Thonk.
Is it as simple as drilling the hole out a little bit?
I've never used pcb faceplates before and the holes are tinned through from front to back. I just want to know if that's for grounding the pots properly or just to make it look all nice and shiny with a better finish?
Tombola
Mr. Enjin wrote:

Is it as simple as drilling the hole out a little bit?


Yes, that's all there is to it
Mr. Enjin
thumbs up cool
listentoaheartbeat
Here's a 14 HP panel for two Springs created with FrontDesign. The RCA jacks for the tanks are mounted to the panel. The holes have a 10 mm diameter to fit the following insulated connectors (I trimmed the front insulation since it overlapped with the labels, and I mounted the solder lug for ground a little differently to avoid contact with the panel):

CBGIS RT - RCA jack, built-in insulated, gold plated. with ring
CBGIS SW - RCA jack, built-in, insulated, gold plated. with color ring

FPD file attached. I ordered it at Schaeffer, paid a little more than 30€.



jamsk
2 springs verbs in one! That's just greedy! hihi Awesome job applause
sempervirent
Nice work listentoaheartbeat, and good find on the insulated plugs too, that's what put me off of doing an aluminum panel for the Spring Reverb.
listentoaheartbeat
jamsk wrote:
2 springs verbs in one! That's just greedy! hihi Awesome job applause


sempervirent wrote:
Nice work listentoaheartbeat, and good find on the insulated plugs too, that's what put me off of doing an aluminum panel for the Spring Reverb.


Thanks! I may add a couple normalizations to this one, and at some point I want to build a bigger one with extras, for example an envelope follower fed from the additional 100% wet output that is available on the rear PCB. Also want to do something fun with the post EQ / pre reverb output, not sure what though.
jamsk
I am also interested in doing something with the wet out and the post eq out. I made a panel, is it as simple as adding jacks to those outputs and also grounds?
bc3
Ok, so first off I will come clean and admit I accidentally soldered the male 10 pin header on the wrong side of the PCB, ugh. Not the easiest thing to remove but got it placed on the correct side of the PCB. Powered up the module and everything appeared fine for a few minutes until I noticed (and heard) a popping sound and smelled smoke which was coming from the 10 pin male header eek!

I assumed there was possibly some bridging on the male header since it was kind of a mess to remove it. Ended up ordering a new 10 pin male header and made sure all the holes on the PCB for the header were clean and did not see anything out of the normal when installing the new header. Hooked everything back up, turned it on and got the same exact behavior as before. Fine for a few minutes, the burning smell, popping sound, and you can see a spark underneath the red stripe side of the male header.

Any ideas on what else I should check and could the issue be coming from somewhere else besides the male header? Thanks!
bc3





Pictures for troubleshooting... thx-
Tombola
bc3 wrote:

Any ideas on what else I should check and could the issue be coming from somewhere else besides the male header? Thanks!


Well, it sounds like your problem is probably the male header!

The circuit around there is very simple and visible on the PCB - the 6 ground pins in the middle all go to the ground plane on the back of the board, the pairs of +12v and -12v pins go to their respective fuses.

Use a multimeter to check connectivity and resistance between +12v and GND, -12v and GND, and -12v and +12v.

You might also remove both the chips and measure the voltages on the pins according to the TL072 datasheet.
bc3
Thanks Tom and will do this weekend! Hopefully it will be something easy to fix wink
jamsk
Did anyone get a stereo out from the brick woking?
I'm interested in doing this. radiokoala mentioned way back about finding the pin on the op amp to give another out but looking at the schem wouldnt this just create a copy of the mono? Forgive me if i'm wrong. If this method doesn't work would just making a double of the circuit that goes to wet out work?(but 2 of them , 1 from each out on the brick). Would adding that affect the rest of the circuit?
Thanks
Jamsk
bc3
Tombola wrote:
bc3 wrote:

Any ideas on what else I should check and could the issue be coming from somewhere else besides the male header? Thanks!


Well, it sounds like your problem is probably the male header!

The circuit around there is very simple and visible on the PCB - the 6 ground pins in the middle all go to the ground plane on the back of the board, the pairs of +12v and -12v pins go to their respective fuses.

Use a multimeter to check connectivity and resistance between +12v and GND, -12v and GND, and -12v and +12v.

You might also remove both the chips and measure the voltages on the pins according to the TL072 datasheet.


I assume I should NOT have continuity between -12V and ground correct? I am not getting continuity between +12V and ground so I assume this is the same for -12V? So I am getting random, yes random continuity between -12V and ground when probing at the 10 pin male header (removed the header again see photos). Yes the circuit looks very simple and I followed the flow and do not see where anything could be possibly grounding out. It seems strange though that sometimes when I test for continuity between -12V and ground I get a signal and sometimes I do not. At this point I'm not sure what else to check and am afraid I might have fried the PCB where the male header goes trying to remove it a few times?


Tombola
jamsk wrote:
Did anyone get a stereo out from the brick woking?


You'd need two versions of the blend/vactrol circuit, and some way to calibrate them so they worked equally (so the stereo balance doesn't fly about as you change CV)

It might be easier to start again with a non-CV controllable version and a double pot.
Tombola
bc3 wrote:
I might have fried the PCB where the male header goes trying to remove it a few times


Sounds like it, I'm afraid. Sparks = arcing = metal melting and moving where it shouldn't be. I once had a tube amp where the charred PCB itself was somehow causing a short.
bc3
Man that is what I am thinking as well. I will get in touch with Thonk and see if I can order a replacement PCB. Thanks again-
CliffordMilk
I finished this build a couple of days ago and need to do some trouble shooting. I have built the module using a digital brick and have the jumper set to brick. However, when I turn the wet/dry pot, the only change to the sound is a slight decrease in volume. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Any ideas that might save me precious time would be much appreciated.
Tombola
CliffordMilk wrote:
I finished this build a couple of days ago and need to do some trouble shooting. I have built the module using a digital brick and have the jumper set to brick. However, when I turn the wet/dry pot, the only change to the sound is a slight decrease in volume. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Any ideas that might save me precious time would be much appreciated.


Hi, sorry to hear that, it could be quite a few things - check all the solder joints are where they should be (I sometimes miss a pin) and all the chips & transistors are the right way around. If you have a multimeter, check the chips & the brick are getting the right voltages according to their datasheets
CliffordMilk
Thanks Tom, I know it's something simple so will do a thorough check along that signal path tonight.
jgb
Hi!

I have been thinking of using the stereo out from the brick instead of mixing it to mono and letting it run through the rest of the module.

Has anyone done this? Ie, no need for the crossfader and such, just getting the sound out on two jacks. Ideally keeping the normal functionality with mixing to mono and sending to crossfader.
Brad
Finally finished my build last night. Using the Accutronics brick and everything works and sounds great.

One (perhaps silly) question -- does the trimmer do anything when you use a brick instead of a spring? I played with the trimmer for a while but could not hear any differences in the sound.

Thanks.
Tombola
No, the trimmer does nothing for the Brick - the output is predictable, so it didn't need a trimmer. You don't need to build that part of the circuit.
Mefistophelees
Hi,

I got one of these from Thonk July last year and finally got around to building it.

Doesn't appear to be functioning quite right though.
I've tested with a couple of Accutronics tanks.

There seems to be either no signal or a very distorted one.
On closer inspection I appear to be getting approximately 7volts DC on the output.

Calibration doesn't seem to have any effect on this.
I've looked at the PCBs and the soldering looks OK.

The only think I can think is there were some resistors marked brick and other tank. I followed the Thonk build doc (v0.91) but it didn't mention these so I just put in what the doc said.

Any ideas?
jgb
jgb wrote:
Hi!

I have been thinking of using the stereo out from the brick instead of mixing it to mono and letting it run through the rest of the module.

Has anyone done this? Ie, no need for the crossfader and such, just getting the sound out on two jacks. Ideally keeping the normal functionality with mixing to mono and sending to crossfader.


Noone?
unrecordings
Hello all,
After it's been sat part finished for nearly two years, I've finally got to finishing my MOTM format build and I've ended up in a real pickle. I tested the boards and found that the NE5532 was dead. After replacing that I've come to the conclusion that my (Accutronics) reverb tank is also dead. On the tank I'm unable to measure a resistance across the output, whereas it should be just a few ohms - is this correct ?

edit to add: xfade circuit seems to be working, there's a signal coming out of the send connection on the board, and tapping the tank does not generate any signal

edit again: okay figured it out. firstly I wasn't measuring the tank correctly, so that seems fine. secondly, as I'm converting this build for MOTM, I didn't notice the NC connection on the XFade input and there isn't a dedicated pad for it on the control board.

Will post a nice picture when i've got it properly sussed (so glad it's a simple problem)
CliffordMilk
Hello Everyone,

I'd like to ask for a little troubleshooting help too, if that's OK. I'm getting no reverb on the output at all, it's just a little quieter. However, when I tap the brick, I can hear a reverberated signal. The tank I'm using is an Accutronics Blue tank input 150 output 1500. I souldered phono connectors to the cables.

I had previously tried with a brick and had the same issue.

Any ideas? The board seems fine. I'm stumped.
Tombola
CliffordMilk - it will be a bad connection or wonky component somewhere on the send path - check the 5532?
drwiener
Brad wrote:
Finally finished my build last night. Using the Accutronics brick and everything works and sounds great.

One (perhaps silly) question -- does the trimmer do anything when you use a brick instead of a spring? I played with the trimmer for a while but could not hear any differences in the sound.

Thanks.


thanks for asking - just had the same issue... calibration does nothing wink
i wanted the distortion wink
CliffordMilk
Thanks Tom. I seem to be getting there now. Final question: the output impedance of my tank is 1500. Would you recommend changing the values of r4 and r6? If so, could you take a guess at more appropriate values?

Thanks again for your help smile
Tombola
CliffordMilk wrote:
Thanks Tom. I seem to be getting there now. Final question: the output impedance of my tank is 1500. Would you recommend changing the values of r4 and r6? If so, could you take a guess at more appropriate values?

Thanks again for your help smile


I'm away from laptop now, but everything I know re: impedance is in the documentation: http://musicthing.co.uk/modular/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Spring_2_1_ Documentation.pdf
drwiener
I used the BTDR-3V digital Tank and added a dual pot in one of the holes for adjustable reverb time, and it works just fine!
jamsk
Cool mod!
Could you let me know what pot you used and a quick wiring sketch?
Thanks
Jamsk
drwiener
jamsk wrote:
Cool mod!
Could you let me know what pot you used and a quick wiring sketch?
Thanks
Jamsk


Alpha 9-PC-DCON-10k lin

thats the pot and the wiring is found on the parts diagram

http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/images/File/BTDR-3%20DIGI-LOG%20REVERB%20 MODULE.pdf

Would anyone know how to add CV control to said potti?
jamsk
Hi,
Thanks for the info. This might help you add cv.
http://www.synthrotek.com/vac-pak-cv-to-variable-resistance-a-circuit- benders-dream/
Waves
Hey there, I just built up my Spring with the brick and it seems to work alright, except the wet signal is very short. Almost like a short reverberated repeat, as if the time of the reverb is short. Doesn't sound long and ringy like in the demos I have seen. I tried doing the calibration procedure, but any way I turn the trimpot it sounds the same. So the CV input also only effects the reverb to this extent as well. I thought the trimpot might have been bad...but I tested it and it's fine. Anyone have this problem? Could it be the brick? Any direction here would be helpful. Thanks
drwiener
so an update is that this mod works better now only using pin 7 and 8 on the reverb tank wink

drwiener wrote:
jamsk wrote:
Cool mod!
Could you let me know what pot you used and a quick wiring sketch?
Thanks
Jamsk


Alpha 9-PC-DCON-10k lin

thats the pot and the wiring is found on the parts diagram

http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/images/File/BTDR-3%20DIGI-LOG%20REVERB%20 MODULE.pdf

Would anyone know how to add CV control to said potti?
woodster
Waves wrote:
Hey there, I just built up my Spring with the brick and it seems to work alright, except the wet signal is very short. Almost like a short reverberated repeat, as if the time of the reverb is short. Doesn't sound long and ringy like in the demos I have seen. I tried doing the calibration procedure, but any way I turn the trimpot it sounds the same. So the CV input also only effects the reverb to this extent as well. I thought the trimpot might have been bad...but I tested it and it's fine. Anyone have this problem? Could it be the brick? Any direction here would be helpful. Thanks


Which Brick did you get, Short, Medium or Long?
The trim pot is probably fine, If I remember correctly it doesn't do anything for the brick, just when using a real spring tank.
bloke_zero
unrecordings wrote:
I'm converting this build for MOTM, I didn't notice the NC connection on the XFade input and there isn't a dedicated pad for it on the control board.

Will post a nice picture when i've got it properly sussed (so glad it's a simple problem)


I'm hoping this is my problem too! Same project - converted to MOTM. I get a good signal from the unbuffered wet out (sounds dreamy!), but sort of a thick phasey sound from the mix output. I'll add in my missing connection - I didn't really clock that was like a separate circuit - time to read the build document properly! I'm hoping that I've not fried anything. Dead Banana
unrecordings
This picture may or may not be of help:

http://unrecordings.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/it-lives-part-three.html

I can whip it out and take a better photo if you get stuck
(I'm using a tank rather than brick)

It was a pretty simple conversion, just the NC connection tripped me up
strat-1
How is your spring tank mounted in your modular ?
Mine is mounted like this :

bloke_zero
unrecordings wrote:
This picture may or may not be of help:

http://unrecordings.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/it-lives-part-three.html

I can whip it out and take a better photo if you get stuck
(I'm using a tank rather than brick)

It was a pretty simple conversion, just the NC connection tripped me up


No that is perfect thanks! I tried the unbuffered wet out into the crossfade in and it all worked as expected so that picture is the final piece of the puzzle. Well, that and how to mount it on the faceplate. This has been my first foray into converting a euro to MOTM and it's been pretty painless - the thonk instructions were top notch.
bloke_zero
strat-1 wrote:
How is your spring tank mounted in your modular ?
Mine is mounted like this :



Nice, I'm thinking like this
memes_33
hey all- i got a second hand spring reverb with a brick installed recently, and am very perplexed by how quiet the 100% wet setting is. i compared it to another one i have with a medium tank- the tank version was much louder with the same signal.

in an attempt to see if the module itself was suffering from anything, i quickly wired some RCA jacks to the brick version, changed the jumper setting to "spring", and connected the RCAs to the medium tank i had. i got the same loudness level as i did from the other module hooked up to the tank. so it just seems the brick is very quiet.

has anyone else experienced this? if i turn things up enough to hear the 100% wet signal, turning to 100% dry is WAY too loud for anything. i know there is some signal loss inherent with the brick AND spring, but i thought they would be a little more uniform between the two in regards to output volume. is my brick bricked? (its the medium decay one).

its been quite some time since i bought this, so it might be inappropriate to request a return at this point.
solidstatedisaster
Tombola

I just built the Spring Reverb kit, and everything went smoothly, except there is no spring reverb effect. The tank works fine, and all the continuity seems fine, but there is not reverb effect. When I turn the mix pot to a completely saturated signal, the only thing that happens is the sound gets a tad bit quieter. Not sure what is wrong. Any tips would be helpful.

Thanks
L_v_
Hello everyone. I also need a some troubleshooting help. I am on my third build of the the music thing spring purchased from Thonk. The first two went smoothly but the third is not working correctly. I'm getting no LED light at all and only a dry signal will pass through, the dry wet knob has no effect. Any suggestions would be appreciated!
L_v_
My led leads were reversed. All is well!
HellRaiser
Noob here....

What do I need for this and what is the Brick? Do I need both Spring Tank and Brick. I'm just looking for an easy project after a small VCA, LFO and VCO build and like the sound from this. Saw this on Thonk and thought it looks just the ticket but unsure about the above.

Thanks guys
Grumskiz
There are two ways to build this module:

Using a spring reverb tank ("oldschool"). These tanks are fairly large. They were/are used in organs, guitar amps and synthesizers of course. You should be able to find pictures.
Reverb tanks have a unique sound. They will work well with certain waveforms and frequencies, but not very well with others. It sounds like the kind of reverb you experience in bathrooms, in my opinion.
One downside of spring reverb tanks is that they pick up noise fairly easily. I had to mount mine about half a meter away from the powersupply that I use in my modular or it would pick up sound from the transformer.
The reverb tank is connected to the module via cinch cables.

The other option is using a digital reverb potted module. Think of it as an oversized IC that is connected to the module directly. Some people call it "brick", because well it is just a plastic brick with a couple of pins coming out of it.
Upsides are that the "brick" requires much less space and is not as noisy. The reverb effect you get is actually very nice, but lacks some of the charm of a spring reverb.

You can see pictures of both tanks and the brick in this thread and how they connect to the module.

I have built both variations and like them a lot, but I have a very large modular that is not meant to be carried around, so space was not much of an issue. If you are building a skiff/portable system, you might want to look into the brick. Mounting the reverb tank in a skiff might be very difficult. Another option is to keep it seperate from the case and run long wires to it, but that means you will have to carry around the reverb tank.

So to conclude: You don't need both, but you could build the module and easily exchange between the two options with a few alterations. It has even be suggested that you could use a switch to change on the fly, but that would require some modding and I don't know if anyone has tried it.
Tombola
HellRaiser wrote:
Noob here....

What do I need for this and what is the Brick? Do I need both Spring Tank and Brick. I'm just looking for an easy project after a small VCA, LFO and VCO build and like the sound from this. Saw this on Thonk and thought it looks just the ticket but unsure about the above.

Thanks guys


Thanks for such a great answer Grumskiz

Documentation is here: http://musicthing.co.uk/modular/?page_id=579
HellRaiser
Amazing!! Thanks so much for you easy to follow and detailed answer!!! A brick might be the way I go then. Im just trying to get my head around it all and keep running into things like this and sometimes its hard to get an answer that doesn't lead to more questions!!!

Thanks again!!!
i.murray.fraser
I just ordered this from Thonk. Shipping to Canada. I wonder how long that'll take. I opted for the brick from tubesandmore.com. I'm excited to build it. I'm pretty new to both modular and DIY, but I've built two other modules so far, without issue.
303ish
Im looking forward to build one... I wish there was a front RCA option in aluminium.

Noob question: Can I use it to process live level audio? Like a drum machine or a mixer send?
ben jah men
Tombola wrote:
CliffordMilk - it will be a bad connection or wonky component somewhere on the send path - check the 5532?


Can you describe how 'you' would "check the 5532"?

Apologies for not knowing :(
maccadelic
Will there be any more PCB only sets released? I'm keen to build one, but would rather source my own parts.
blt
I populated the board with normal ceramic disc capacitors before I noticed the BOM called out multilayer. Does this matter? I read somewhere that they may be more microphonic, not sure if that is a concern in this circuit.
keninverse
blt wrote:
I populated the board with normal ceramic disc capacitors before I noticed the BOM called out multilayer. Does this matter? I read somewhere that they may be more microphonic, not sure if that is a concern in this circuit.


I just looked at the schematic and it looks like C6 and C7 would be best if poly and maybe C1. Ceramic discs in those values are a little difficult to source. Did you really use big ceramics here? In the end who really cares if you think it sounds good. Pass some audio through it and see if you really notice and if you can't really hear anything then just leave the ceramics in there.
batchas
I finally got the panel for my moduleModule version with reverb tank for the buchla 200e system.


It was my first test with Schaeffer in Germany (I mean my first try with engraved and not silkscreened panel). Now I know, when looking at the imperfections or the small mistkes I did here, what I should take care of for the 4U panels I might do with the same printing process.

It is nearly impossible to get a decent reverb and a clean signal when I trim it.
If the signal is clean, not distorted, the reverb is much too low.
I guess it has to do with the difference between signals on the Eurorack and on the Buchla 200e systems.
I am wondering is someone had an idea which component I could swap to get the signal not so dirty and more appropriate for the Buchla format?[/img]
PWM
Some input attenuation could be needed. I don't know what level Buchla signals are at.(?)
Sounds like you're driving too hot.

Nice panel btw!
batchas
PWM wrote:
Some input attenuation could be needed. I don't know what level Buchla signals are at.(?)
Sounds like you're driving too hot.

Nice panel btw!

THANK YOU!

Yeah. While I was writing this post, I realised I first should compare both signals.

I am going to google and I'll ask in another thread if needed.
Again: thanx thumbs up
batchas
PWM wrote:
Some input attenuation could be needed.

Should I increase R19? Is it the right way it should be done, to attenuate the incoming audio signal?

batchas
batchas wrote:
It is nearly impossible to get a decent reverb and a clean signal when I trim it.
If the signal is clean, not distorted, the reverb is much too low.
I guess it has to do with the difference between signals on the Eurorack and on the Buchla 200e systems.

It's funny, cause normally an audio signal coming from an eurorack module needs to be attenuated when it enters a buchla module.
But here I am sending a buchla audio signal into a eurorack module (I mean I only changed the panel for a buchla standard, not the circuit).
So this is something I don't understand. I'd have thought the buchla signal would do just fine (as being lower than a standard eurorack audio signal).
If someone could explain. There's obviously still a lot I need to learn about audio signal.

EDIT:
Oh! Maybe it's because it runs on +/- 15v instead of +/- 12v???

BTW:
Doepfer audio signals = 10V peak-to-peak
Buchla audio signals = 1V peak-to-peak
PWM
So your feeding it 6V extra, this can cause problems (don't know the schematics of this particular spring reverb).

The extra 6V sounds more likely to be the problem here, after reading the voltage difference on signals between Doepfer and Buchla, your signal probably needs amping.
PWM
You're using a spring tank, or the BTDR-2?
rhinatch
Mmmh isn't it the opposite ? The signal sent to the reverb may be too weak, isn't it ? Euro outputs are stronger than buchla, but putting a buchla level in a euro-module may force the reverb to work too hard, no? So it would produce noise…
I would think you need to amplify the incoming signal, then to attenuate the reverb module output, but maybe I'm wrong (I'm not qualified at all). For example, you need to amplify 258j's outputs too use it in euroland.
But the problem could also be the +-15V in place of 12.

And by the way I really like your panel !
batchas
PWM wrote:
You're using a spring tank, or the BTDR-2?

I use a spring tank (the accutronics one recommended by Tombola).

BTW: I will try sending a signal from a eurorack module as soon as I'm able to.
So I'll know if it's the audio signal coming from Buchla or the power supply difference which is at the origin of the reverbed sound distortion.
batchas
rhinatch wrote:
Mmmh isn't it the opposite ? The signal sent to the reverb may be too weak, isn't it ?

Exactly. And I am surprized the sound is distorted, as I imagined a signal is distorted when it is too loud, not the contrary.
batchas
batchas wrote:
BTW: I will try sending a signal from a eurorack module as soon as I'm able to.

If I remember well there's not such a distortion when I send a signal coming from the eurorack.
If so, it's not the power supply difference which is the problem.

I'll confirm soon.
PWM
nevermind.
BananaPlug
Given that...
Quote:
Doepfer audio signals = 10V peak-to-peak
Buchla audio signals = 1V peak-to-peak

The signal into the spring is going to be 1/10 what was expected, which has the effect of making the background noise seem ten times larger. I think you ought to try replacing the 10K R20 with 100K. You may have to attenuate the output to get back to the 1Vpp level you're used to but the result should be cleaner.
Quote:
The actual reverb tank is a passive module.

Yes but the large amount of amplification of the puny signal picked up at the end of the spring is not passive.
PWM
BananaPlug wrote:
Given that...
Quote:
Doepfer audio signals = 10V peak-to-peak
Buchla audio signals = 1V peak-to-peak

The signal into the spring is going to be 1/10 what was expected, which has the effect of making the background noise seem ten times larger. I think you ought to try replacing the 10K R20 with 100K. You may have to attenuate the output to get back to the 1Vpp level you're used to but the result should be cleaner.
Quote:
The actual reverb tank is a passive module.

Yes but the large amount of amplification of the puny signal picked up at the end of the spring is not passive.



Good point!

And sorry for ruining my earlier post.. Not used to wiggle on a smartphone, something went terribly wrong.
rhinatch
@ batchas : i just remember that djangosfire built a music thing reverb for his buchla system which works well, maybe you can ask him too..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzDQAeDgVTQ
(i didn't managed to put the vid directly)
batchas
PWM wrote:
And sorry for ruining my earlier post.. Not used to wiggle on a smartphone, something went terribly wrong.

Oh I was wondering. Feeling better now reading what happened about it.
I wanted to tell you thow much I appreciate your help here. THANK YOU!

@BananaPlug: good point indeed.
Will check asap this too (and R20).
batchas
rhinatch wrote:
@ batchas : i just remember that djangosfire built a music thing reverb for his buchla system which works well, maybe you can ask him too..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzDQAeDgVTQ
(i didn't managed to put the vid directly)

Thank you. Yeah. We had some messages exchange back then together about it.
PWM
batchas wrote:
PWM wrote:
And sorry for ruining my earlier post.. Not used to wiggle on a smartphone, something went terribly wrong.

Oh I was wondering. Feeling better now reading what happened about it.
I wanted to tell you thow much I appreciate your help here. THANK YOU!



You're very welcome!
Posting on any forum with a smartphone must be kept simple.. smile
batchas
So... I finally finished the project(s) for the Buchla system. I didn’t go directly to the solution. Had to solder/unsolder again. Next time I’ll know from start what to do best.
When I replaced the 10k resistor at R20, the value had to be lower (100K for instance was huge!) to lower the distortion (which of course also lowers the volume of the incoming signal). I tried with all kind of values below 10k and was not really satisfied.
I got very good result when I actually put back 10k at R20 and tested with a pot in place of R19, to find the resistance which would give the best results.
I then realised that the distortion was higher when I tested the 200 clones, than when I tested the 200e modules! Much mich higher with a 259 than with a 259e or 261e (even lower than these with Zoe MK2).
To resume: It turned out that the best result on the Buchla, with different trimming settings, was 27K instead of 10k at R19.

EDIT:
I added "buchla" everywhere needed, to avoid confusion for people building for eurorack or other formats.
ym2612
I now have two of these. One is a Thonk kit from about a year ago, and the other kit was just barely purchased at Control. The wet/dry response seems massively different between the two. The newer build seems to go more wet than the older one, and to get a balanced stereo image with full wet on the old unit, I have to set the mix on the new unit to somewhere around 50%. Is this down to vactrol variation, or were there other component changes that might have affected this?
Monobass
hi ym2612

how do you mean 'barely purchased'? Was it a Thonk branded kit?

There haven't been any differences in the spring kits, have you tried zeroing in on your issues a little by swapping the back boards and seeing what affect it has?
search64
Pretty sure he means "barely used" smile

Say Steve, btw... Any reasons you don't carry the tanks? Would save me from ordering at two vendors. Which I hate.

Oh and lastly, I have an extra vactrol, a VTL5c4. Would that work on this, and what would the difference be (also, would you need to change any resistor values?)?
ym2612
Recently, as in I purchased the kit this past week. I compared two versions of the build doc and didn't find any component differences, so either I've got something in the wrong place, or it's due to variations in the vactrol/LED.

I'll try swapping the back boards.
Monobass
I don't really have the storage space right now to buy the tanks in volume.

I'm not entirely sure what it would be like with the slower VTL5C4 actually, I think it could mainly mean that CV control would be very sluggish.
search64
Makes sense. Thanks!
ym2612
Here's a follow-up. I checked the resistance across the LDR terminals of the vactrols on both spring modules at 0%, 50%, and 100% wet mixture. The newer vactrol gave me 7Kohms at 100%, giving a wetter mix, but the older vactrol gave me 17K. I tried out some different values and eventually soldered a 2.2K in parallel with the existing 2.2K at R11, bringing R11 down to 1.1k (I didn't have that exact value available). With that, the 100% mixture is pretty pretty close between the two units.

A trimmer at R11 would be lovely, for tweaking wet/dry mixture based on the vactrol's response and for balancing stereo applications.
Lulu
Hello everybody!

This is my first post here because i was able to get to work my other projects alone.
Today i soldered the Reverb-Kit (From Thonks). My reverb tank works fine, i can hear it on the "WET_OUT" on the 2nd pcb - but the Vactrol-Crossfader-Part doesn't work at all.

The LED does not light up and the output is the dry signal. I checked the resistance of the vatrol, and it stays at 46k ohm all the time when i turn the "Blend-Knob" from 7 to 5 o clock (The Voltages for on the Diode-part of the vactrol seems to change).

When I insert a sound to the Crossfade Input, I can barley hear it, but it becomes quite loud, when i bypass the resistor of the vactrol.
I think there is maybe something wrong with the vactrol.

I spend the last four houres comparing my pcb to the schematic but just couldn't make out what the mistake is.

What should i do next? Order another Vactrol and switch it out?

I'd be happy if you guys had any ideas or suggestions for finding the mistake.

Thanks in advance,
Lulu
Monobass
Hey Lulu, can you post pictures of both sides of both PCBs please?

Cheers

Steve
search64
It works! I love it! Makes everything sound so much better smile Did have to find a good spot to fit the spring tank, but I managed to stick it somewhere near the top as far away from the power supply (although I didn't test whether I could hear any buzzing anywhere else).

I'm finding more and more that I love all sorts of feedback patching (ResEQ! Dead Banana) and this module is perfect for that.
Lulu




I hope these fotos are ok!
PWM
Try to reflow your solder joints. I see quit a lot that didn't got thru to the other side of the PCB.
Lulu
Indeed there was a single cold joint. It's working now!

After having been able to finish all the difficult stuff without bigger problems (4ms PEG, hexinverter Midi2cv etc.) i obviously become unobservant. d'oh!
Ironically, this was the first project in which the guide explicitly emphasises the importance of good joints. Typical me.

Thanks for the help everybody!
search64
Nice! This is just an R*S VCF Q and the Spring Reverb in a feedback patch, with the filters bandpass out to determine the pitch of the feedback:

[s]https://soundcloud.com/jorgen-van-de-burgt/feedback1[/s]
eclectics
Starting building my spring reverb today from the Thonk kit, but there was no 1nf capacitor, though there is a 100pf cap provided which isn't referenced in the build doco. I'm guessing using this won't give my reverb special undocumented magic powers?

I can just buy a cap of course, but doesn't it figure that I put in a largish order without said caps to 2 suppliers just last night?

I guess I need to have better component stock on hand.
Monobass
Hi eclectics,

Does it not have this sticker on the bag?



Cheers

Steve (Thonk)
eclectics
d'oh! oops

Oh, I have to read as well as solder! very frustrating

I reread the build doco like 4 times looking to see if I'd overlooked something, making sure it didn't reference the 100pf somewhere else, then read through this thread from Sept 2015 (when I got the kit) to see if there was something there, but I didn't read beyond the 100pf value on the label...

Dead Banana

Thanks.

Dead Banana

There's no shortage of appropriate emoticons at least...
Monobass
Guinness ftw! Guinness ftw! hihi

basically the history behind this is that the 1n value was introducing a subtle low pass filter on the dry output. changing this to a 100pf removed this issue.
DMR
Could anyone provide the dimensions or part number for the plastic washer that comes in the kit, to make the alpha pot the same height as the jacks?
Monobass
It's an M8 Form A washer to DIN standard that I ship in Thonk kits

inner diameter 8.4mm
outer diameter 16mm
Thickness 1.6mm

part number 1491T54
DMR
Monobass wrote:
It's an M8 Form A washer to DIN standard that I ship in Thonk kits

inner diameter 8.4mm
outer diameter 16mm
Thickness 1.6mm

part number 1491T54


thanks!
lcf
Any news about the expander please??

EDIT: or does someone has a fpd file to share that would have been designed with a switch?
bournio
lcf wrote:
Any news about the expander please??


Are you sure you posted this on the right thread? I don't think the spring reverb has space for an expander.
lcf
bournio wrote:
lcf wrote:
Any news about the expander please??


Are you sure you posted this on the right thread? I don't think the spring reverb has space for an expander.

No it's not the wrong thread. If you read the whole thread you'll understand.
bournio
Oh I see.

Sounds handy.
KNYST
I finally added a switch between spring tank and digital brick smile

It's definitely possible to cram a miniature switch in there, but you need to bend the solder lugs. Behold:


smithknows
Howdy.
I started a thread seeking help with a Spring build. It was suggested I post here.
My initial post:
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=162691
Hey guys.
I've built a bunch of kits of varying difficulty with success and have started sourcing my own parts for PCB projects, going well.

But, for the life of me, I can not figure out why my Music Thing Spring won't work. Could you dudes help me troubleshoot?

PCB/Panel from Thonk. Sourced my own parts. Built 2. Both have the same problem.

Audio passes just fine but it will not send audio to the spring.
Touching the spring produces sound.

I've double checked all parts and polarities.
Swapped opamps
New fuses

I just don't know enough about circuits to know what the likely culprit might be.

Any thoughts? Thanks.


Over the last couple days I've checked the continuity between the RCAs and IC4. Also swapped out some resistors at R7 to see if the vactrol might be the culprit.
I just don't know enough to know where to look.
Any help would be very much appreciated.
PWM
Do you have a scope? Tracing the signal to where it stops would've been my next step.
You could do this with an audio lead connected to your amp/computer, but you have to be careful with that.
Monobass
Smithknows, did you modify the mini jacks as suggested in build manual to avoid shorts and also make sure the RCA grounds are not being bridged?

https://thonk.co.uk/documents/springreverb/Spring_Reverb_v0.91.pdf

Also you need to make sure your tank is compatible

http://musicthing.co.uk/modular/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Spring_2_1_ Documentation.pdf
smithknows
Monobass, Thanks for the reply.

Yep. I did get those mini jacks out of the way.

And I have the recommended Accutronics medium and large tanks.

I just realized I may have used an oddball vactrol. I got this from Synthrotek.
http://store.synthrotek.com/Vactrol

I don't know what the purpose of the vactrol is in the circuit. Is that something that could stop signal from going to the spring?

I tried a couple different resistor values with no change.

Thanks for the help.
Monobass
The Vactrol is in the cross-fade circuit so while it won't stop it getting to the tank it might stop you hearing the reverb... you could try tapping the wet output on the PCB directly to see if it's getting to the tank. It's on the rear PCB.
fuzzbass
There are two sides to the circuit, and the crossfade side can be easily tested, apart from the reverb circuitry. If you connect some alternate audio source into the x-fade input, can you crossfade between that and the main audio input? Do you see the panel LED tracking the crossfade point? Apply an LFO to the CV in and test crossfading there. If all this works, that eliminates 3/4 of the circuit, including the vactrol.
fuzzbass
If you got this far, you must have a DMM. Here is a DMM test for the EQ/Reverb Send part of the circuit.

If you look at the schematic, at the bits around IC2, you might notice that at least while the EQ control is at minimum, the audio path is DC coupled. It should be possible to feed DC voltage into the audio input, and measure it at the reverb send.

I set up a test with my Spring, the reverb pan disconnected, and the tilt control at 0. I slowly raised +5V in the audio input, and measured the reverb out ramp up from 0 to +800mV, using the DMM. As I increased the tilt control, the caps in the EQ circuit started to block the DC and the reverb send dropped to 0V, as expected.
smithknows
Fuzzbass, Thank you.
I will give this a shot as soon as I can.
fuzzbass
We should let the other thread die. Your fix should happen here so other builders will see it.

I think your 9BB tank is fine. I use a 9EB, both are fine according to the build doc. Did you get a chance to try the tests I suggested above?
smithknows
Hello Fuzzbass
Thanks for waiting. Busy week. I finally have time to do some testing here.
First test is good. The x fade seems to be working just fine. LFO works.

I'm not sure I follow exactly this DC voltage test. I'll try my best.
Thank you.
smithknows
Ok. Here's what happened.
I put a 5v offset from shades into the audio in.
Couldn't get any measurement from the RCA jacks.
Measured voltage at the audio out.

So, something is keeping signal or voltage from getting to the RCAs?
But what could it be?

Man, I guess I've been lucky with all the builds I've done. I haven't had much to troubleshoot. They usually just work. This one has got me.

I hope we can figure it out.
Tombola
Ignore me, hadn't read the rest of the thread...
fuzzbass
smithknows wrote:
Ok. Here's what happened.
I put a 5v offset from shades into the audio in.
Couldn't get any measurement from the RCA jacks.
Measured voltage at the audio out.

So, something is keeping signal or voltage from getting to the RCAs?
But what could it be?

Man, I guess I've been lucky with all the builds I've done. I haven't had much to troubleshoot. They usually just work. This one has got me.

I hope we can figure it out.

Sorry I went off on holiday right about the time you posted. I'll look at this tonite when I'm back at the hotel.
fuzzbass
I'm away from my gear right now. IC2 (NE5532) and associated resistors and caps are suspect. You could just try replacing the chip. If you want to dig deeper, you can test for positive voltage at all the inputs and outputs of the chip: in A (2), out A (1), in B (6), out B (7).
Teusa Rass
I have just finished mine, and what I get out of it is just spring reverb noise when I tap on the old Hammond tank,- same with the old Fender tank.

What I am afraid of:
Have I possibly fried the inputs coils of both tanks by checking
with my DVM?
First I measured about 150 Ohms,
but later possibly just the going through (unattending).
I checked everything else on my module, following the docs.

Any hint would be gratefully taken.
smithknows
Well shoot! I just don't know. I think I've hit my troubleshooting threshold.
I have 2 of these broken things.
I'm happy to give them to anybody that wants to cover shipping.
I'm sure somebody can figure it out pretty easily if they are hands on.

PM me if you want them.
[UPDATE] The Springs have been claimed.
Teusa Rass
"PM me if you want them".
Thanks for the offer, but

my question was if I destroed the input coil by
beeping it through,- just to avoid future mistakes.
First I measured 150 Ohm, and later after
unwantintingly sending 9V through with my DVM,
it was zero. So

thanks for the answer
tioJim
Evening

Is there any way of using Accutronics AB tanks with this? I'm quite happy to buy the correct tank otherwise but it's just a pity as I've had a 8AB2A1B hanging around the workshop for God knows how long!

Thanks
Jim
ijed
tioJim wrote:
Evening

Is there any way of using Accutronics AB tanks with this? I'm quite happy to buy the correct tank otherwise but it's just a pity as I've had a 8AB2A1B hanging around the workshop for God knows how long!

Thanks
Jim


Check the build docs and schematics - It lists adjustments for different tanks
http://musicthing.co.uk/modular/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Spring_2_1_ Documentation.pdf

http://musicthing.co.uk/modular/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Spring_2_1_ Schematic.pdf

Looks like you need to swap the 2.2k for 470ohm in the spring drive circuit
tioJim
ijed wrote:
tioJim wrote:
Evening

Is there any way of using Accutronics AB tanks with this? I'm quite happy to buy the correct tank otherwise but it's just a pity as I've had a 8AB2A1B hanging around the workshop for God knows how long!

Thanks
Jim


Check the build docs and schematics - It lists adjustments for different tanks
http://musicthing.co.uk/modular/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Spring_2_1_ Documentation.pdf

http://musicthing.co.uk/modular/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Spring_2_1_ Schematic.pdf

Looks like you need to swap the 2.2k for 470ohm in the spring drive circuit


Yup saw the build doc tho I did miss the schem. The 8AB2A1B is only 10Ω on the input. Docs say probably too little current in the TL072 for very low impedances. The 8AB2A1B is input grounded/output grounded. The circuit needs input isolated/output grounded afaik. I wondered if either of these issues can be worked around
golana
Hei!

Built some, and love mine.
I've added a deported trimmer (with a bourns multiturn pot) and a tank selector, works perfectly.

Still I have some questions:

The "DRY" side filters high frequencies a little, is there a simple way to reduce that?
There is a significant amount of bleed in the crossfader. Pure wet is something around 70/80% wet. Can this be adjusted?

Anyway, super project, easy build, good sound.
tioJim
Is it okay to run this module without the tank plugged in? I'm waiting on my tank but want to play around with the crossfader.
golana
tioJim wrote:
Is it okay to run this module without the tank plugged in? I'm waiting on my tank but want to play around with the crossfader.


Yes you can run it without any tank plugged in.
sagetone
Hi all,

I received my MT Spring DIY yesterday. Only Panel A was available from the dealer, so I'll install the RCA tank sockets on the back. I plan to also install the digital brick, and want to add a toggle switch for easy switching back and forth.

There are quite a few mentions of toggle switches in this thread. It looks like many of them pertain to Panel B, which looks like it has different front control spacing than Panel A.

So, question - if you installed a toggle switch, and you have Panel A, where did you install it? It looks like there might be room/clearance just above the CV jack, or to the lower right of the Dry/Wet.

Thanks for your help,

Todd
synthetek
sagetone wrote:


So, question - if you installed a toggle switch, and you have Panel A, where did you install it? It looks like there might be room/clearance just above the CV jack, or to the lower right of the Dry/Wet.

Thanks for your help,

Todd


I put it above the CV Jack. I have compared both panels and the space there is the same.

sagetone
Thanks Synthetek!
qfactor
Hi,
I was given a MOD 4FB3A1B Tank, recently and excitedly (without first doing any research here ) d'oh! went ahead and bought the Music Thing Spring Reverb kit from Thonk.

Now after having built and completed the kit, AND found that it doesn't work, only did I look this thread up, seriously, i just don't get it and think that my inherited Tank, MOD4FB3A1B, may not be compatible to the circuit?? Dead Banana

Is it possible to modify the circuit components to make this tank work? Otherwise, I think I've just built a X-fader!! d'oh!

help
sagetone
Hi qfactor,

I'm no expert in this area, but let me suggest a few things.

On page 3 of the Spring documentation, in the gray box, it says "Tested spring specs are: Input: 150Ω to 800Ω, Output: 2,250Ω to 2,575Ω". Your MOD tank has "Input Impedance 1475 Ohms, Output Impedance 2250 Ohms". So output is within range, but not input, at least as far as TESTED springs is concerned.

Now check out page 4 of the Spring documentation, sections E and B on the left. At the end of section E, it says "Very high impedances might require swapping the 10k trimmer for a 100k trimmer". So you might try that.

And, I would certainly like for others to weigh in on this as well, to get other opinions.

Good luck, let us know your progress!

Todd
tioJim
Hello

Love the sound of this thing but, I have a large volume difference between 100% dry signal and 100% wet signal. I don't think it's just a perceived volume either.

Is this a feature or a bug?! smile

Thanks
Jim
woodster
Neither a feature nor a bug.
Every Spring Reverb I've ever encountered has had an inherent volume drop when switched in.
It's just the nature of the beast I think.
tioJim
woodster wrote:
Neither a feature nor a bug.
Every Spring Reverb I've ever encountered has had an inherent volume drop when switched in.
It's just the nature of the beast I think.


ok cool thanks
qfactor
Hey thanks for the suggestion, Todd.
I did read thru all those docs you mentioned, but didn't think the trimmer bit would have that much of a difference so I went for the 22k/47k change of R6 (which did nothing) d'oh!

As the trimmer was the last thing I could try and after seeing your thread reminding me of this, I went ahead and changed the 10k to a 100k trimmer, and you know what?? It got the tank working!! nanners

So there you go! The trimmer does make things work if the impedance is a mismatch from the original!

As for the difference in level of the dry and wet, mine's the same too. thumbs up :(


sagetone wrote:
Hi qfactor,

I'm no expert in this area, but let me suggest a few things.

On page 3 of the Spring documentation, in the gray box, it says "Tested spring specs are: Input: 150Ω to 800Ω, Output: 2,250Ω to 2,575Ω". Your MOD tank has "Input Impedance 1475 Ohms, Output Impedance 2250 Ohms". So output is within range, but not input, at least as far as TESTED springs is concerned.

Now check out page 4 of the Spring documentation, sections E and B on the left. At the end of section E, it says "Very high impedances might require swapping the 10k trimmer for a 100k trimmer". So you might try that.

And, I would certainly like for others to weigh in on this as well, to get other opinions.

Good luck, let us know your progress!

Todd
sagetone
Awesome! Glad to know that worked qfactor.

And yep, have the same issue with dry vs. wet levels not matching. I've only had mine for a couple weeks. Also have a tank and brick with front panel switch. Adjusting the trimmer has been tricky to accommodate both the tank and brick. I probably need to go back in and make another pass at it, now that I have had it for awhile and am understanding what each of the modes sounds like.
qfactor
Here's a picture of my completed module with the tank thumbs up

sagetone
Nice!!
billieblaze
Kind of beating up this old thread some more. I've got some signs of life on mine.. I'm using the BTDR-2H and VTLC53.. jumper is set right, replaced all opamps and gave it a few general once overs..

In + Out, i get only the input sound, and what sounds like a very faint delay.. Plug in a CV source and I'm getting reverby sounds out and LED is lighting.. X-fade seems ok with a cv source in..

Any thoughts out there?
synthetek
billieblaze wrote:
Kind of beating up this old thread some more. I've got some signs of life on mine.. I'm using the BTDR-2H and VTLC53.. jumper is set right, replaced all opamps and gave it a few general once overs..

In + Out, i get only the input sound, and what sounds like a very faint delay.. Plug in a CV source and I'm getting reverby sounds out and LED is lighting.. X-fade seems ok with a cv source in..

Any thoughts out there?


Have any pics of the boards?
billieblaze
Absolutely!
billieblaze
SMDH...

bad 50k wet / dry pot..
atari5200
Just built a module with a tank and a brick, tank works perfectly but I'm getting no reverb from the brick....
When I switch to the Brick it passes sound when I turn up the wet/dry pot, but there is a volume drop. It is the same volume drop that I get when I blend the wet/dry with the tank, so I guess that's normal? So it's passing signal, however there's just no reverb.... I swapped my op-amps between the tank & brick sections of the back PCB, no change, so that's not it. My resistors all look good, and since it's passing signal I can't imagine there's a short anywhere.
I bought my brick new from mammoth, but I was confidant that it would work so I soldered it right in rather than using headers. Is there a way to check that it's actually a functioning brick? I am using the BTDR-2H "Long" Brick.
Waves
woodster wrote:
Waves wrote:
Hey there, I just built up my Spring with the brick and it seems to work alright, except the wet signal is very short. Almost like a short reverberated repeat, as if the time of the reverb is short. Doesn't sound long and ringy like in the demos I have seen. I tried doing the calibration procedure, but any way I turn the trimpot it sounds the same. So the CV input also only effects the reverb to this extent as well. I thought the trimpot might have been bad...but I tested it and it's fine. Anyone have this problem? Could it be the brick? Any direction here would be helpful. Thanks


Which Brick did you get, Short, Medium or Long?
The trim pot is probably fine, If I remember correctly it doesn't do anything for the brick, just when using a real spring tank.


Just saw this, I figured that is why the trimpot didn't seem to work.
Also, it's the "medium" brick- 2.5 seconds
Works as it should now.

Does anyone know how much reverberation time can be achieved with a tank instead of the brick without distorting?
Does the gain trimpot have a direct effect on the length/feedback of the reverb or just on the loudness?
auerhahn
Hi.
I can't get my module to work.
At first I had the usual "no wet signal - only gets quieter" problem. The crossfader option worked. While measuring around I noticed a connection between GND and REVERB_RETURN on the reverb board, figured that's where my wet signal went. I solved it - now there's a wet signal on my OUT. But suddenly there's also some tone coming out, constant pitch, sounds a little feedback-like. It's always there when MIX is turned to WET, even with no input and no spring tank connected.
What could it be?
auerhahn
auerhahn wrote:
Hi.
I can't get my module to work.
At first I had the usual "no wet signal - only gets quieter" problem. The crossfader option worked. While measuring around I noticed a connection between GND and REVERB_RETURN on the reverb board, figured that's where my wet signal went. I solved it - now there's a wet signal on my OUT. But suddenly there's also some tone coming out, constant pitch, sounds a little feedback-like. It's always there when MIX is turned to WET, even with no input and no spring tank connected.
What could it be?


If I remove the jumper on the back and take the wet signal directly, its is perfectly clear. The beep on the output disappears too.
The crossfade mode works alle the time.
auerhahn
auerhahn wrote:

If I remove the jumper on the back and take the wet signal directly, its is perfectly clear. The beep on the output disappears too.
The crossfade mode works alle the time.


While trying to narrow the error down to a specific place in the schematics, it seems to me like both parts, the crossfader and the reverb unit, are working fine seperately and the "feedback-sound" only appears when they are connected. Maybe a ground problem? still can't figure this out...
synthetek
Waves wrote:

Just saw this, I figured that is why the trimpot didn't seem to work.
Also, it's the "medium" brick- 2.5 seconds
Works as it should now


What did you do to get the brick to work? mine works fine with the tank but the brick sounds more like a weird delay.
indigoid
Tombola wrote:
Dogue wrote:
Not sure if this has been answered in the 66 pages, but:

Can anyone suggest either a US source for the kit or a PCB manufacturer? Thonk is out of stock of the RCA jack front panel kit, and an admittedly quick check in Eagle using OSH Park's DRC turned up a bunch of errors.


Yes, you wouldn't be able to do it in OSH Park because he can't do plated slots - and all the jack sockets plated slots. Also, the Gerbers are a bit huge, because of the logos, that seems to choke their (very cool otherwise) online system.

You can order the whole set from Seeedstudio (where I get them, and I think where Thonk gets his done) - the last set of prototypes I ordered were 5 each of 2 x pcbs and 2 x types of panels = $130 inc shipping. Just remember to tell them NOT to put their serial number in the top silkscreen layer on the panels.


Thanks so much for this advice Tombola, was just checking before posting a new thread to ask about (almost) exactly this. After cross-checking the Eagle board file, Seeed's Eagle CAM file and Seeed's PCB specification, it looks like the jacks should indeed work, but I was hoping to find someone else confirming it. Seeed's my usual PCB source, so this is excellent.

I was contemplating editing the design to use Thonkiconns instead, but I have a big pile of the jacks you used sitting unused because I didn't want to waste lots of time and junk boards trying to get the Eagle part right. Also I am running out of Thonkiconns. You may have just saved me a whole bunch of hassle with my own projects.

Thanks again, and thanks for sharing your awesome designs. spinning
Bamboombaps
auerhahn wrote:
auerhahn wrote:

If I remove the jumper on the back and take the wet signal directly, its is perfectly clear. The beep on the output disappears too.
The crossfade mode works alle the time.


While trying to narrow the error down to a specific place in the schematics, it seems to me like both parts, the crossfader and the reverb unit, are working fine seperately and the "feedback-sound" only appears when they are connected. Maybe a ground problem? still can't figure this out...


FWIW i am having exactly the same issue it sounds like Dead Banana
indigoid
I did correct a few DRC issues when generating gerbers for this project recently. One of them was a trace running far too close to a pin on the NE5532. It may be that this resulted in this trace being connected to a pin that it should not have been?
williamcarthief
Welp. I completed the build. The LED was responding appropriately. I hooked up the tank and got some reverb on the signal. The cv appeared to work. The tilt appeared to work though it was very subtle. There was quite a bit of distortion on the wet signal, whether the tank was hooked up or not, and the trimmer didn't seem to make a difference no matter how much I turned it in either direction. I searched this thread and found a link to the doc which describes the build process, something I had not yet seen, and I noticed step 14 where it instructs to clip part off the jacks and did that. Then I reflowed all the joints.

Now I plug it all in and turn it on and the LED doesn't work. No reverb. Signal flows through and it is slightly distorted no matter where the knobs are, no difference between wet and dry settings. CV does nothing on the CV inputs. Not sure what I've done here. I don't think I lingered too long reflowing the vactrol joints but I wasn't paying particular attention, do those fry easily?

Any thoughts?
indigoid
You might have one of the resistors around one of the opamps — particularly on the back PCB — wrong. It's a PITA but I recommend very carefully checking everything on the back PCB, and maybe the front PCB too. One wrong resistor could dramatically change the gain on one of the opamp circuits...

If you can't find the schematic easily, install Eagle and load up the files provided on the Music Thing website

Sorry I can't be more helpful; I'm on a train right now

Where did your PCBs come from?
indigoid
Also make sure you used the correct resistor for your vactrol type. If it's not one of the two suggested vactrols (NSL32SR3 or VTsomething, per the build notes) you may need to experiment a bit
atari5200
I'm curious if the module I just built is working within spec or if I need to adjust something.

I get no reverb at all until my Wet/Dry control is at about 9:00, from then on it seems to work as expected but I have a vague memory of the last module I built having more of an effect earlier in the rotation. Is this normal? Is there anything i can do to increase the range? It's not a huge deal but it's a fairly large dead spot...

Also, and this may or may not be related, I get a fair amount of bleed on the "wet" end when I use the crossfader. I know this is to be expected to some degree but I'm wondering if I can mitigate this a bit.

I'm using a VTL5C3 vactrol and the 47K resistor specified in the build docs. I'm also using the superbright" LED specified in the docs as well.
indigoid
atari5200 wrote:
I'm also using the superbright" LED


is it red? (it probably should be)
rosch
I've had mine waiting to be tested for 2 years or so after building, with the long accutronics tank.

Man this is a fantastic reverb. First I thought it wasn't working but it was just a crap cinch cable that I had. I'm tempted to make another one with a different tank.

atari5200
indigoid wrote:
atari5200 wrote:
I'm also using the superbright" LED


is it red? (it probably should be)


Nope, it's this one as spec'd on the BOM
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/VCC/VAOL-3LWY4/?qs=io7aH2hdVh7EI6v wg%252bnTZg%3D%3D
jbid55
Can anyone help find suitable replacements for the obsolete parts in the BOM? I'm a bit stupid when it comes to circuit components and finding replacements.
indigoid
jbid55 wrote:
Can anyone help find suitable replacements for the obsolete parts in the BOM? I'm a bit stupid when it comes to circuit components and finding replacements.


which parts?

I built my Springs (two, thus far...) from stock I mostly already had lying around on the bench

All of the parts are jellybean things that shouldn't be obsolete anytime soon. If a manufacturer has ditched them, look at a different manufacturer. In fact, maybe stop looking at specific manufacturers entirely and just look at parts that match those key specs:

- basic component type (resistor, ceramic cap, film cap, etc)
- package type (eg. though-hole resistor with axial legs, capacitor with radial legs spaced 5mm apart, 3mm through-hole red LED, transistor in TO-92 package)
- for resistors: resistance
- for capacitors: capacitance + voltage rating
- for transistors: best to stick with what was specified (eg. 2n3904), as otherwise you can get trapped by non-matching pinouts

Also keep in mind that you don't need every part in the BOM. You only need the parts for the variant you want to build. Eg. if you want to use a real spring tank and don't intend to use the Accutronics reverb brick, you don't need the 78L05 regulator, or any other parts shown in that area on the back PCB.
Whelm
@jbid55

Do you mean the vactrol? You can find it at Small Bear, if so. I've just recently sourced all the parts. Got nearly all of it from Tayda with a few parts from Mouser and Small Bear.

EDIT: Oh, just looked at the BOM.

Yu can find those red-texted items very easily. 1N4001 is a common diode, here's a link to another one: http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=y2kkmE52mdNtNRrsA1y lQg%3d%3d

You don't need to source the specific make and model in the BOM.

Mouser, while generally a huge PITA to navigate, is nice enough to also provide a link for alternatives next to each unavailable item in that BOM.
jbid55
indigoid wrote:
jbid55 wrote:
Can anyone help find suitable replacements for the obsolete parts in the BOM? I'm a bit stupid when it comes to circuit components and finding replacements.


which parts?

I built my Springs (two, thus far...) from stock I mostly already had lying around on the bench

All of the parts are jellybean things that shouldn't be obsolete anytime soon. If a manufacturer has ditched them, look at a different manufacturer. In fact, maybe stop looking at specific manufacturers entirely and just look at parts that match those key specs:

- basic component type (resistor, ceramic cap, film cap, etc)
- package type (eg. though-hole resistor with axial legs, capacitor with radial legs spaced 5mm apart, 3mm through-hole red LED, transistor in TO-92 package)
- for resistors: resistance
- for capacitors: capacitance + voltage rating
- for transistors: best to stick with what was specified (eg. 2n3904), as otherwise you can get trapped by non-matching pinouts

Also keep in mind that you don't need every part in the BOM. You only need the parts for the variant you want to build. Eg. if you want to use a real spring tank and don't intend to use the Accutronics reverb brick, you don't need the 78L05 regulator, or any other parts shown in that area on the back PCB.


Thanks thats super helpful! How important is tolerance? Because that's one thing I've been getting caught up on in terms of finding replacements for multiple builds.

For the Spring Reverb, this 22pF cap in particular had me stumped. I don't focus on brands at all, but when trying to find a similar specd part, I came up with nothing.

I found replacements for the following, but not 100% sure on those either:
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=REA2R2M1JBK-0511Pvir tualkey21980000virtualkey140-REA2R2M1JBK0511P
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=DSF050J333virtualkey 59850000virtualkey598-DSF050J333
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=1N4001virtualkey5121 0000virtualkey512-1N4001

Whelm wrote:
@jbid55

Do you mean the vactrol? You can find it at Small Bear, if so. I've just recently sourced all the parts. Got nearly all of it from Tayda with a few parts from Mouser and Small Bear.

EDIT: Oh, just looked at the BOM.

Yu can find those red-texted items very easily. 1N4001 is a common diode, here's a link to another one: http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=y2kkmE52mdNtNRrsA1y lQg%3d%3d

You don't need to source the specific make and model in the BOM.

Mouser, while generally a huge PITA to navigate, is nice enough to also provide a link for alternatives next to each unavailable item in that BOM.


Thanks! Yeah, those red texted posts are whats giving me trouble. I actually have the vactrol already which I bought ahead of time in a bulk shipment.
jbid55
So would these replacements work?

22pF Cap
Replacing this with any of these

2.2uF Cap
Replacing this with this


.033uF Cap
Replacing this with this
Whelm
jbid55 wrote:
So would these replacements work?

22pF Cap
Replacing this with any of these

2.2uF Cap
Replacing this with this


.033uF Cap
Replacing this with this


Yep. 50v is, I believe, the standard for ceramic disk capacitors, so you just need to make sure you're matching the value. This page is useful for that purpose: http://aisynthesis.com/capacitor-conversion/

For resistors, 1/4 watt metal film resistors with 1% tolerance are what you generally want, although I think some BOMs call for 1/8th watt (I'm not really sure if it would make much a difference though).
indigoid
For resistors I'd actually check the dimensions in the datasheet. Some 1/4 watt resistors are in surprisingly large packages. And even some of the 1/6 watt resistors I have here were a bit tight in spots on the Spring PCBs, though they did fit.

You can pretty much always get by with the wrong dimensions, but too much of that and things can look pretty ugly

Also recommend substantial care in installing the electrolytic caps on both PCBs — remember that the PCBs need to mate together and so you don't want them sticking up too far. I made this mistake on my first Spring build and had to fix it (heated the pads, pulled them up a bit, then laid them down flat against the PCB)
jbid55
Thanks again guys. Super helpful. Just ordered all the parts and I'm excited to start a new project.
atari5200
Just bumping this to see if anyone can confirm my module is functioning within spec- seems a little off to me but I'm not sure what to do about it.... However since it's using a vactrol I know some variation is expected so if this tracks with other user's experience I guess I'm good to go.

hmmm.....

Basically I get no reverb blend until 9:00. It works as expected after that point but that seems like an awfully large dead spot. Adjusting the trimmer doesn't really help with the blending as it starts distorting on the "wet" end before it makes any difference to the point where the reverb starts to blend in.
Whelm