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Any News from Intellijel?
MUFF WIGGLER Forum Index -> Eurorack Modules Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24  Next [all]
Author Any News from Intellijel?
Summa
Well I still have to see what Intellijel has to offer, but to me it's ALL about the basic functions that the tiles add to my system, I wouldn't want to have multiples, attenuators and definitely not FSR's taking up space inside my 3U space. Oh and the power connecters are fucking brilliant as you get three of them from one 16Pin bus. (Yes I sometimes actually run out of headers inside my cases).

Anyways I'm pretty sure PulpLogic could adapt to this new format by adjusting his PCB's and faceplates slightly.
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
DonaldCrunk wrote:
Why does a manufacturer brand new to the format get to decide that standard, with no consultation whatsover to existing manufacturers? Regardless of your feelings towards aesthetics or your 'trust' in IJ, do you think this is okay?


Wow, that's a pretty loaded question! Who says that Intellijel is "deciding the standard?" In fact, they made a decision to do what they did based on their own reasoning. Looked at a certain way, this could limit the number of cases sold, if people are really chafed about the different 1U specs, so rather than "defining the standard" they may just be limiting their market.

I believe they were just trying to have a standard that makes sense, something so sorely lacking in so many eurorack wares.
DonaldCrunk
Summa wrote:


Anyways I'm pretty sure PulpLogic could adapt to this new format by adjusting his PCB's and faceplates slightly.


he could - but i'm sure you know that 'adjusting' in this case doesn't mean just taking a dremel to all the existing inventory, but means all new PCBs, all new front panels - all new everything. What happens to the old tiles that no longer meet the new spec??? Might as well sink them in the ocean!!
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch
DonaldCrunk wrote:
Summa wrote:


Anyways I'm pretty sure PulpLogic could adapt to this new format by adjusting his PCB's and faceplates slightly.


he could - but i'm sure you know that 'adjusting' in this case doesn't mean just taking a dremel to all the existing inventory, but means all new PCBs, all new front panels - all new everything. What happens to the old tiles that no longer meet the new spec??? Might as well sink them in the ocean!!


Or sell them to the large number of eurorack users who will probably not buy the new cases.
Summa
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
DonaldCrunk wrote:
Summa wrote:


Anyways I'm pretty sure PulpLogic could adapt to this new format by adjusting his PCB's and faceplates slightly.


he could - but i'm sure you know that 'adjusting' in this case doesn't mean just taking a dremel to all the existing inventory, but means all new PCBs, all new front panels - all new everything. What happens to the old tiles that no longer meet the new spec??? Might as well sink them in the ocean!!


Or sell them to the large number of eurorack users who will probably not buy the new cases.


yup, that and how much stock are we talking about anyways? I'm up for a bunch of more tiles wink
I didn't mean adjusting the existing tile modules.
DonaldCrunk
Dr. Sketch-n-Etch wrote:
DonaldCrunk wrote:
Why does a manufacturer brand new to the format get to decide that standard, with no consultation whatsover to existing manufacturers? Regardless of your feelings towards aesthetics or your 'trust' in IJ, do you think this is okay?


Wow, that's a pretty loaded question! Who says that Intellijel is "deciding the standard?" In fact, they made a decision to do what they did based on their own reasoning. Looked at a certain way, this could limit the number of cases sold, if people are really chafed about the different 1U specs, so rather than "defining the standard" they may just be limiting their market.

I believe they were just trying to have a standard that makes sense, something so sorely lacking in so many eurorack wares.



No other 1u manufacturer that i've talked to yet has had any input on the standard, so i'm not sure who else might've been involved. Perhaps other larger manufacturers who may want to be involved in 1u in the future may have been involved. I have my suspicions. I will be asking around.

And absolutely, IJ can do what they want to do. However the sense that i get is that IJ seems to think his standard is superior, and is publishing his standard for other manufacturers to adopt. I'm sure you know exactly what that means for small manus - old inventory is now worthless. That's a big hit for someone in such a small, niche market - and margins on tiles are already teenie tiny.

having two 1u standards as-is is going to limit everyone's market. I think you guys are thinking that you have the heft to push thru the new standard because you've got the distro network and are already a fairly popular company - it's possible that's true. but at the end of the day, i'd rather be on the side of the little guys that helped form the market and created the market to begin with. IJ is absolutely welcome in that market. Or he can create his own format. So can Monome.

When Tony released the 1u CV buss, he didn't try to change the standard. Tiles fit perfectly in those cases. Because he appreciated that someone else came before him and set a standard, arbitrary though it seems to be.


at the end of the day, convincing you guys of anything is going to be a waste of time on my part. you guys already have inventory on the way, and this shit is already happening. but i don't want this standard change entirely on the shoulders of the little guys, and that seems to be what's happening.
exper
Well there's work around me that the end user can do. File down the panel width for instance, perhaps widening the screw holes. And I think someone makes a euro power to 1u power adapter so that helps as well. And if the manufacturers wanted to adapt the size and power differences for new tiles, then even better.

I admit, I hate plastic panels, but I can see where it helps with the DIY aspect of existing 1u design.

However, a more defined spec is needed to propel 1u into a more usage. As you mentioned, others are following the doepfer size specs as well, like Vermona. With their case, and intellijel's, there's a whole new realm open now.

I suspect that the original sizes used by erthenvar was more about fitting the brackets to the lunchbox case size. Instead of having a gap in the 3u+1u case, the probably just added the extra mm to the panels.
timothyjr
I'll likely mount some new Triatt like utility module like I mounted my ES-6; I hacked off a couple ends of blank tiles and mounted the ES-6 to those. Existing Intellijel 6hp modules won't fit (PCBs are too wide).

Mounted ES-6
windspirit
Pulp has mentioned that he never imagined 1U tiles taking off the way that they have and so there are some "quirks" with his design, like them not fitting with z-rails, only vector rails. You have to look at eurorack like the stock market, lots of different players with different incentives doing different stuff and maybe talking to eachother to work together or maybe not telling anyone to protect their idea.
intellijel
DonaldCrunk wrote:

And absolutely, IJ can do what they want to do. However the sense that i get is that IJ seems to think his standard is superior, and is publishing his standard for other manufacturers to adopt. I'm sure you know exactly what that means for small manus - old inventory is now worthless. That's a big hit for someone in such a small, niche market - and margins on tiles are already teenie tiny.


I knew there was a potential for some controversy with our choice of sizing for the 1U modules but we honestly had no ulterior motives behind this other than being the only practical way we could make them work with our design.

As far as following the lead of those who had come before us that is exactly what we did: we calculate sizes based on official 1U rack standards and Doepfer Eurorack measurements.

Given that 1U = 1.75" and a 1U tile panel is 1.7" that would only leave 0.025" for each rail lip (0.6mm!) and that is without accounting for size tolerances and extra spacing which is usually about +/-0.2mm

It was important for us that the 4U cases fit perfectly in a 4U rack space. This requirement drove all the other sizing.

We also looked at Doepfer 3U specs in terms of distance of panel holes relative to edge of 3U space, panel size vs. opening, rail thickness etc.

We also wanted to keep using the 5x2 pin headers for power so that the modules would be compatible with standard power supplies.

I actually think the idea on Tiles to use a mini header is very clever but it does not work for our modules since we have some that will be using the CV/gate bus and +5V rails.


re: cheap panels
If you look at the photos of our cases posted so far the 1U space is currently filled with panels made from PCBs. These are crazy cheap (an 8hp panel is only $10 for 10 of them from a place like itead.com) and you can put a bunch of complex hole/cutout shapes plus silk screened graphics. Surely this is better than hand drilled plastic? I would be happy to provide some template files for these modules if there was interest.
DonaldCrunk
exper wrote:
Well there's work around me that the end user can do. File down the panel width for instance, perhaps widening the screw holes. And I think someone makes a euro power to 1u power adapter so that helps as well. And if the manufacturers wanted to adapt the size and power differences for new tiles, then even better.


this is all well and good. if it's a width difference only between IJ 1u and existing tiles, then everyone is fine. i would even consider supporting a move to the new IJ standard (not that my support means much, but i can be loud as fuck on the internet if i want to be).

it's the height issue i'm concerned about. PCBs can't really be dremeled. IJ hasn't published his specs yet, but from what i've read earlier in this thread there is a fair possibility that existing tiles _cannot_ be made to fit in IJ's cases.


exper wrote:
However, a more defined spec is needed to propel 1u into a more usage. As you mentioned, others are following the doepfer size specs as well, like Vermona. With their case, and intellijel's, there's a whole new realm open now.

I suspect that the original sizes used by erthenvar was more about fitting the brackets to the lunchbox case size. Instead of having a gap in the 3u+1u case, the probably just added the extra mm to the panels.


you and i are in agreement in regards to a defined spec being accessible. the 1u spec used to exist on a blog page on Erthenvar's blog, however it got hacked and it didn't get put up anywhere else. It's just as specific as Doepfer's spec. For sure if you email Pulp Logic or Erthenvar or anyone who makes tiles i'm sure they'd be happy to share the existing spec.

I actually believe that 1u is not more prevalent because of the lack of cases supporting the 1u format, not the lack of a spec. there are plenty of manufacturer's making tiles, we just have no where to put them past a certain point. I have way more tiles than i have room for tiles in my little lunchbox for instance.


In regards to the height spec - you may be right! Pulp Logic may have to chime in about that, though i'm sure it's not advisable for him to get involved in this particular thread. Fortunately i'm a free agent, i can piss off anyone i want to. Hah.
intellijel
timothyjr wrote:
I'll likely mount some new Triatt like utility module like I mounted my ES-6; I hacked off a couple ends of blank tiles and mounted the ES-6 to those. Existing Intellijel 6hp modules won't fit (PCBs are too wide).

Mounted ES-6


There is 23mm of space so anything that is 2-4hp will fit no problem. 6hp is too wide since it is 30mm.
DonaldCrunk
Thank you for responding.

intellijel wrote:

I knew there was a potential for some controversy with our choice of sizing for the 1U modules but we honestly had no ulterior motives behind this other than being the only practical way we could make them work with our design.


It was important for us that the 4U cases fit perfectly in a 4U rack space. This requirement drove all the other sizing.


it is good to read this. this is certainly a much more palatable reason for the vertical height change.


intellijel wrote:
We also wanted to keep using the 5x2 pin headers for power so that the modules would be compatible with standard power supplies.


i have no problem with this, and would actually prefer it to the existing way of powering small tiles.



The reason i'm pushing this agenda so hard is not because i _don't_ want to see you enter 1u, it's quite the opposite. Upon seeing your cases i was very excited because i believe what the format needs right now is an easily accessible, relatively low cost and highly available case compatible with 1u. Everyone is going to want one. But with two standards, both you and existing manus are going to be eating a lot of returns from confused end users unless several things happen:

1. a roadmap to 1u format standardization - i think every existing manu in the format would be open to some degree of compromise and tighter standardization. though you have now created your own spec and have inventory on the way, surely you must see that it would be beneficial not only for the little guys but also for _your_ bottom line if everyone could play together nicely.

2. If compromise is not possible between the existing standard and your new one, then some sort of nomenclature separating the two formats needs to exist. I will tell you right now that none of the existing 1u manus i've spoken to are willing to dump their current inventory and remanufacture to meet your new spec, so if there needs to be 2 formats, then they need to be labeled differently and appropriate disclaimers applied. I think that is to everyone's advantage. I have no suggestions here.


I'm sure i don't have to tell you that not everyone in eurorack is a rocket scientist - there are going to be lots of questions and confusion going forward. My interests lie in preserving the ability of micro-manufacturers to enter the format and innovate, and making it easier for new end users to enter the format without stress.

again, i'm just an excitable, lowly end user that happens to know some folks and has been in the 1u format since the beginning. i want there to be a happy ending for everyone.
Kummer
I for one am exited about a big manufacturer offering 1U tiles. It sucks that the pulp logic ones won't fit, but if they adopt this new 1U size, it could be a boon for them as one of the only other 1U format makers. Think positive here! smile
SoundPool
very interested in these cases. I really like the look of the similar monome ones, but doing mostly DIY they are too shallow for a lot of things I would like to put in there, so its nice to see something similar in form but deeper. getting to choose what extra basic functional stuff I would put in the top row based on my system would be very handy too. any plans for some sort of cover for travel? even if it meant unpatching having some shallow extra cover to protect knobs and throwing one of these in a soft case would be exactly what I'm after for a new touring rig.
ac
intellijel wrote:
timothyjr wrote:
I'll likely mount some new Triatt like utility module like I mounted my ES-6; I hacked off a couple ends of blank tiles and mounted the ES-6 to those. Existing Intellijel 6hp modules won't fit (PCBs are too wide).

Mounted ES-6


There is 23mm of space so anything that is 2-4hp will fit no problem. 6hp is too wide since it is 30mm.


Good to know!
alaindusmith
About to buy a shapeshifter.... are the knobs actually horrible quality or are they supposed to be wiggly? And if so, do they ever break?
Daisuk
alaindusmith wrote:
About to buy a shapeshifter.... are the knobs actually horrible quality or are they supposed to be wiggly? And if so, do they ever break?


Not wiggly at all, they're rock solid. I wouldn't buy one with wiggly knobs.
alaindusmith
Daisuk wrote:
alaindusmith wrote:
About to buy a shapeshifter.... are the knobs actually horrible quality or are they supposed to be wiggly? And if so, do they ever break?


Not wiggly at all, they're rock solid. I wouldn't buy one with wiggly knobs.


Really? The one I tested in Schneidersladen had all of the small black CV trim knobs super wobbly and fragile feeling.....
Daisuk
alaindusmith wrote:
Daisuk wrote:
alaindusmith wrote:
About to buy a shapeshifter.... are the knobs actually horrible quality or are they supposed to be wiggly? And if so, do they ever break?


Not wiggly at all, they're rock solid. I wouldn't buy one with wiggly knobs.


Really? The one I tested in Schneidersladen had all of the small black CV trim knobs super wobbly and fragile feeling.....


Oh, I thought you said "knobs". The trimmer pots are maybe a tad more wobbly than the knobs, but the ones on mine certainly don't feel fragile or particularly wobbly.
alaindusmith
Daisuk wrote:
alaindusmith wrote:
Daisuk wrote:
alaindusmith wrote:
About to buy a shapeshifter.... are the knobs actually horrible quality or are they supposed to be wiggly? And if so, do they ever break?


Not wiggly at all, they're rock solid. I wouldn't buy one with wiggly knobs.


Really? The one I tested in Schneidersladen had all of the small black CV trim knobs super wobbly and fragile feeling.....


Oh, I thought you said "knobs". The trimmer pots are maybe a tad more wobbly than the knobs, but the ones on mine certainly don't feel fragile or particularly wobbly.



Maybe the demo very just got a bit F'ed up in the shop. Was just a bit unkeen to spend 600 of my hard earned euros on one single module with wobbly knobs. But now we've got the build quality concern out of the way, would you say the thing is the holy grail OSC and well worth the fairly high price tag? During my 30 minutes try out in the shop I couldn't figure out how it worked. But once one has acquired his PhD from the university of intelligen, and can actually use it, is it totally dope and irreplaceable?
exper
Nothing to worry about. I have a ton of those on my Intellijel modules. Not one has failed. Besides, they're not overly tweak able knobs. More like set and forget depending on patch.
Daisuk
alaindusmith wrote:
Daisuk wrote:
alaindusmith wrote:
Daisuk wrote:
alaindusmith wrote:
About to buy a shapeshifter.... are the knobs actually horrible quality or are they supposed to be wiggly? And if so, do they ever break?


Not wiggly at all, they're rock solid. I wouldn't buy one with wiggly knobs.


Really? The one I tested in Schneidersladen had all of the small black CV trim knobs super wobbly and fragile feeling.....


Oh, I thought you said "knobs". The trimmer pots are maybe a tad more wobbly than the knobs, but the ones on mine certainly don't feel fragile or particularly wobbly.



Maybe the demo very just got a bit F'ed up in the shop. Was just a bit unkeen to spend 600 of my hard earned euros on one single module with wobbly knobs. But now we've got the build quality concern out of the way, would you say the thing is the holy grail OSC and well worth the fairly high price tag? During my 30 minutes try out in the shop I couldn't figure out how it worked. But once one has acquired his PhD from the university of intelligen, and can actually use it, is it totally dope and irreplaceable?


Absolutely. Best osc in eurorack by a mile, in my opinion. Can't recommend it enough. thumbs up
alaindusmith
OK so will defo buy the shapeshifter then. I know I will love it but don't understand it yet but am prepared to give this one module a lot more of my time. But the way, I am about to buy an entire new system. If you want, please give your opinion on my new modules: https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=151237
phosfiend
Very off topic as I'm chomping at the bit for more case info, but I have TWO shapeshifters in my modest 9U system, just effing bonkers what it can do.
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