AD, AR or ADSR ?

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Jturbide
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AD, AR or ADSR ?

Post by Jturbide » Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:59 pm

Hey guys, this might be a stupid question and the answer might be obvious but..
As I said in a few post, I will be building a modular synth to create some ambient/drones/soundscapes.. think Tim Hecker, Abul Mogard, Grassow, Koner etc..
ex:

I wondered, is there a kind of envelope generator that fits better for that kind of music? AD, AR, ADSR? I thought I'd buy a Q109 but then I kinda thought, what about a buchla or serge clone? like a DUSG or a 281 for example.. at the moment I kinda lean toward the AD,AR type...don't know why.. but what do I know? :roll:

I've been told to get alot of LFOs, so I don't plan on getting like 3-4 envelopes because I won't have much space for that ..probably like 2 so I want to chose it wisely

JohnLRice

Post by JohnLRice » Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:35 pm

Thanks for the Abul Mogard link, nice stuff I hadn't heard before! :party:

If you are going to be playing sustained things like the Mogard, especially if you are doing it from a keyboard, you'll mostly want ADSR's. I think ADSRs are more versatile because you can do AD/AR with them if you want, the only downside I can see is that an ADSR takes up almost twice as much space because it has twice and many knobs.

There are envelope generators that are ASR - Attack Sustain Release (not to be confused with the other ASR - Analog Shift Register) and one of those night suit you well too although an ADSR would still be better I think.

I'm not sure if there is one in MU but Intellijel makes a really nice quad EG that can do AD, ASR and looping/LFO called the Quadra. Some one should make a 5U version:

4 x function generators
Selectable mode:
* 1. ad (attack – decay)
* 2. ahr (attack – hold(sustain) – release)
* 3. cycle (ad envelope loops)
linear or exponential curve

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Not to dwell on Eurorack but here's a good discussion on the subject that is relevant except the modules discussed aren't 5U of course:
viewtopic.php?p=1347997

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Post by drob842 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:41 pm

I would recommend ADSR. I think you will find that EGs are useful for many functions, far beyond the "traditional" amplitude control of VCAs. More stages in the EG will allow for some more complex modulation, which is why I recommend ADSR. I'm constantly using EGs for pitch, filter modulation, LFO rate and depth, etc.

That being said, most of Hecker's sound is software and Koner is all about reverb. They are two of my favorite artists, and I love my modulars, but most of what I've done that is was inspired by Hecker was achieved with tools like Max/MSP. I'm the first person to tell people to go modular, but if you're on a budget, you'd probably be better served by mastering some in-the-box solutions. Hecker was all about Reaktor for awhile, maybe still is, but I haven't read any recent interviews.

Good luck!

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Post by ppkstat » Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:09 pm

Also consider getting at least one voltage controlled envelope they can be very useful. Space can be an issue though.

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Post by Synthbuilder » Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:45 am

JohnLRice wrote:I'm not sure if there is one in MU but Intellijel makes a really nice quad EG that can do AD, ASR and looping/LFO called the Quadra. Some one should make a 5U version...
Not quad but my VRG can do this and under voltage control:

http://www.oakleysound.com/vrg.htm

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Ready made versions available from Krisp1.

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Post by alternating.bit » Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:40 am

ppkstat wrote:Also consider getting at least one voltage controlled envelope they can be very useful. Space can be an issue though.
+1

I'm lucky to have one 2nd hand Dotcom ADSR that someone modded so it has one VC input... nice deal :miley:

I also have one from SSL, good and versatile one too.

http://steamsynth.com/shop/moog-unit-mo ... generator/

And speaking of saving space also note worthy is Oakley's looping ADSR's which contain built in VCA's and other features.

http://www.krisp1.com/store/index.php?m ... ucts_id=71

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Post by ppkstat » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:37 am

The Oakley VRG must be among the best Oakley modules available especially for small systems. It has the added benefit of having an lfo which is probably useful to you.

How much space do you have available? You can fit 1x VC-ADSR and 1x ADSR in 3U (or whatever MU equivalent) or 2xADSR and something like a VRG in the last slot.

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Post by Jturbide » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:39 am

Thanks guys :tu:

For now my case is 32 space and I'm waiting for a Q106,Q141,Q150 and probably a Q109 or multiple... still trying to decide if I will go with a Q109 or something else.. The DUSG and 281 appealed to me but you guys all agree that ADSR would be the best for me so..

This is what I plan to get.. well something like that: (didn't include envelopes)

https://www.modulargrid.net/d/racks/image/459918.jpg

I was also curious about that octal vca. Would it be a good bet for me ? Would I have enough mixers or whatever you need to control them vcas without knobs ?

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Post by coyoteous » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:00 pm

I say both, all, etc. (also, remember you can use a slew/lag or even just a gate)... dotcom ADSR to start.

The Moon dual ADRS envelope gives the cycling, as well (though mine and others' are mode temperamental).

I really like my Oakley/Krisp1 VRG, too... just it and the O/K1 noise/filters make a funky noise machine.
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Post by Mirolab » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:01 pm

One of my favorite modulators is the Corsynth C106 VC-AD. It's Dual A-D envelopes that are voltage controllable. You can adjust the Attack & Decay curves as well as modulate their rates independently. They are loopable, so they are effective as LFOs, again with infinitely adjustable curve shapes. Plus look at all triggering options (end triggers!). Two AD's in 2 spaces might not seem space efficient, but this is a multi-trick module at a very nice price!

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Post by Jturbide » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:22 pm

^Yeah that corsynth does look great! I updated the modulargrid plan on my previous post (switched the FFB for PM resonator and added EGs)

coyoteous: yeah both is indeed the best option but I'm limited on space and budget.. still have manage to plan something (I think) good on modulargrid (previous post)

any thoughts on the octal vca and what to use to control it?
(Does my plan looks good or do I miss something)

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Post by Flareless » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:39 pm

I really love my Oakley ADSR/VCA. Two great features in a 1MU module plus the EG is very fast (when desired) and it has some cool looping options.

The Postman EG from Hexinverter is also pretty cool for an AR EG as it contains 4 EGs. Very useful!


The System X ADSR from Frequency central is also an excellent EG with both fast and slow options. At least one of mine finds its way into almost every patch I make. Only 1 function for 1MU but still a damn fine module!
Last edited by Flareless on Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by coyoteous » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:33 am

There he goes with that U thing again... oh, well.

I've wanted at least one Oakley ADSR/VCA for a long time, but it seems not to be in the cards for me as Krisp1 MU secondhand.

Let quite a few go by, and when I tried for a few after that, it's the only module someone else got before me, like every dang time (three or four).

Have two Oakley Quad VCA/VC-mixers, one MU and one MOTM format, that are excellent.

That SSL octal VCA is intriguing and impressive... surely the best bang-for- buck in MU VCAs, but I have no personal experience with it.

I do have two of Doug's fine 1200 VCOs, though.
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Post by Flareless » Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:43 am

coyoteous wrote:There he goes with that U thing again... oh, well.
Ooops :doh: Corrected it!

Too many years in the rack mounted computer industry I guess.

mu.... MU..... MU.... MU.... MU

K... I think I got it :tu:
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Post by tongebirge » Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:46 am

I have a Hexinverter Postman in MU.
It Is Perfect for Drum or Percussion Sounds.

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Post by Jturbide » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:07 am

tongebirge wrote:It Is Perfect for Drum or Percussion Sounds.
not really what I'm looking for but thanks..
coyoteous wrote: That SSL octal VCA is intriguing and impressive... surely the best bang-for- buck in MU VCAs, but I have no personal experience with it.
Cool, I might get one at some point. Just not quite sure of what I need as ''cv in'' to control them.. because I guess if I don't have 8 source to control each of them then I couldn't use them all... and in a relatively small setup like mine it could cost alot of space .... :despair:

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Post by coyoteous » Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:50 am

Jturbide: CV in for VCAs is most often an envelope generator for me... sometimes an LFO or mix of DC/sub-audio, or even CVs to scale other CVs.

DC CVs might be a sequencer row output, for example... generally it can be anything you'd want to control volume (as accents, too).

You can also make complex timbres with audio-rate amplitude modulation (AM)... like balanced/ring modulation, but with the carrier and modulator.
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Post by PrimateSynthesis » Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:44 pm

A versatile EG available in 5U is the Encore UEG. It can make very complex envelopes. It can also be used as an LFO or step sequencer. What makes it unique is that it has a Time CV. So the entire length of the envelope can be scaled with one voltage, without changing its amplitudes. So it's a good choice for small systems.
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Post by coyoteous » Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:14 pm

Flareless wrote:
coyoteous wrote:There he goes with that U thing again... oh, well.
Ooops :doh: Corrected it!

Too many years in the rack mounted computer industry I guess.

mu.... MU..... MU.... MU.... MU

K... I think I got it :tu:
Missed this before... sorry about that, think I need to retire from the U police.

Noticed Gert from Moon uses that for MU lateral spacing, too... so, who am I to correct the Moon master (or yoU, for that matter).

I'll try to just stick with that it's really only a vertical standard, anyway... but, I'll still avoid it altogether for horizontal, and use the discussed alternatives to do my part to avoid confusion.
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Post by Just me » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:16 am

I'm patiently waiting for the new STG EG to make its debut. Then, a few of my others will show up in BST.
It just occurred to me that I have EG's from 4 different venders in my system right now. Moon, Dot-com, SSL and Hordijk.
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Post by Jturbide » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:53 am

Hey thanks everyone for your advices and tips :D

I went with a CGS114 DUSG (calel condit panel). Which is kinda against what you guys suggested me but it looks super versatile. I'm waiting for Rich to build it and ship it to me, I am really excited about this module :hyper:

I will definitely get some ADSR envelopes later, but now I need to get some VCAs and mixer.. and some basic stuff. (kinda considering the Thomas White triple LPG) 8-)

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Post by bwhittington » Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:08 pm

I only just got the Corsynth Dual Looping VC AD this weekend, but it certainly warrants a look given your interests. It comes close to 281/DUSG functionality in 5U. Not exactly the same but similar with +/-'s both ways. As mentioned above, it has some nice i/o with two outputs for adding/subtracting the waveforms, and trigger switches for longer or more complex shapes.

I also have a pair of Oakley VRG's which are similarly snappy and have slightly different features. I've had them for a long time and they work well also, of course. Both are flexible and add a lot of other utility to a small system.With both modules, I might suggest keeping a Multiples module close to better approximate banana jack patching. At least to me, the modules kind of beg for it so they can be patched together and still have outputs free.

Even if you mainly want to use AD shapes, you might enjoy a full ADSR in your arsenal from time to time. Particularly since they can also do AD, and the Dotcom ones are usually only $75 used. VC ADSR's are nice too, but in reality the VC AD's cover much of that ground.

I guess I'm a little addicted to envelopes, but I suggest giving yourself a few extras to play with. Mixing two or more can create some really great results.

EDIT: Missed your last post. The CGS DUSG is a great pick as well. :tu:

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Re: AD, AR or ADSR ?

Post by Putte » Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:28 pm

I´ve got a similar question…. sort of….. AD, AR or more ADSR:s?
My cabinets are six spaces from being filled, which then means 132U + 6 for power on the backside. Among these 132 are:
-9 .com Q109
-1 krisp1 VC-ADSR-VCA
-3 krisp1 ADSR-VCA
-1 SSL model 1230

In other words, there are fourteen ADSR:S in my system. but I calculated on filling half of the empty six spaces with Q109:s. As you can imagine, I´d rather save some of those spaces and get something else. Now, the thing is, I mostly use my modular for lead sounds and bass (MIDI bass pedals), but also for some sequencing (often quite fast and short tones). Typically, the Q109:s are set TO A=0, D=1-3, S=0, R=0. So, I could probably do with some AD envelope generators. But, what about a cheap solution, the mentioned LWSS Postman, a quad Attack/Release EG?. It could fit my needs in just 1U, but it´d be AR instead.

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Re: AD, AR or ADSR ?

Post by baleen » Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:32 pm

a Thing I Learned via Eurorack is that i don't need ADSR as much as every other synth I've owned/played has led me to believe.

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Re: AD, AR or ADSR ?

Post by MrNezumi » Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:58 pm

Corsynth’s new envelope generator. 2 spaces, 4/6 envelopes and they all do looping.

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