Why are all FH-1 triggers outputting as flams?

[macs4music]

Has this been resolved with the FH-2 does anyone know?

[os]

The FH-2 allows precise control over the open and closed gate/trigger levels so I don't expect any similar problems.

[macs4music]

Perfect!

[ipnoteca]

The FH-2 allows precise control over the open and closed gate/trigger levels so I don't expect any similar problems.

so i guess there will be ne no more improvement for the FH-1 correct?

[os]

It's possible but it's very hard to find the time to update the FH-1 at this point.

[skylab001]

It's possible but it's very hard to find the time to update the FH-1 at this point.

This is a bummer, I hope it will still get at least one more update. I’ve been hoping for a fix to this triggering issue for quite some time now as maths is the only envelope generator in my system. I don’t have a buffered mult so I guess I’m out of luck for now.

[Seaweed Sound]

I ran into this issue attempting to trigger a Maths with an FH-2. When Maths is triggered via a Keystep gate out directly it works fine with no double triggers. When Maths receives at its Trig In a gate from FH-2 (acting as a MIDI CV converter for the Keystep), then Maths double triggers (once upon gate ON and once upon gate OFF).

The Keystep has "clean" gates with very square edges:




The FH-2 is exhibiting some kind of Overshoot or Ringing at the gates edges:



It is the squiggly little blip at the falling edge of the FH2 gate (yellow signal) which causes Maths (blue signal) to double trigger upon releasing a key:



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Solutions:

1) Setting Output Smoothing to lowest value of 1 will eliminate the double triggering, however it is not optimal as it can cause a double attack portion of Maths upon successive jumps between the interpolated steps:



2) Best solution so far: by reducing the FH-2's Gate voltage level, the immediate jump between high/low states is smaller and this seems to reduce the "ring/overshoot" enough to not double trigger Maths. Set the Gate Output Range to be 0-10V and then set the Gate Levels to: Low=0, High=~4500. This will stop the double trigger and should deliver a high enough voltage (~2.8v) for most other modules:



Let me know if this works for you. There may be differences in tolerances between components so you may need to tweak the DAC high value. If you still have issue try setting the Gate Output Range to 0-1v. This was enough to trig Maths and avoid the double trigger.

Maybe something can be done in code to smooth/cleanup the gates (something faster than Smoothing=1 to prevent double attack). Hope this helps

[macs4music]

I really hope this solution works as it’s the main reason I’m getting an FH-2. Currently the only way I can use the FH-1 with any of the Make Noise Maths family is to go via another module to offset the gate at a 0 start and end level. Thank you for doing this, as it illustrates what is doing the double triggering.

[Naive Teen Idol]

Revive to say that double triggering on the FH-2 appears to be a problem with a number of Make Noise inputs, and it doesn't appear changing gate levels or smoothing does the trick. I'm experiencing this problem on more than just Maths -- but other Make Noise modules as well such as pinging the QPAS.

Os, I know you said elsewhere that you thought this was a problem on Make Noise’s end. But is it possible that the culprit is the FH-2 gates/triggers/clocks that have this "overshot" edge to them as posted above by Seaweed Sound? And if so, is this fixable? Not sure if it uses the same hardware, but the Disting mk4 doesn't give me this same problem with any of these modules. But I have a Shared System so am a little concerned about this behavior with a number of modules in my rack.

[os]

Neither I nor MakeNoise can retrospectively change your hardware.

I'm surprised if neither changing gate levels nor smoothing can resolve this, but if not, have you tried putting the signal through, say, a buffered mult?

If it came to it you could DIY a cable with an RC filter built into it.

[Naive Teen Idol]

Thanks, Os -- regarding your first point, of course not. And I’m sorry, I know this has been an ongoing gripe from some users. I was simply wondering whether you had explored any changes on the software side that might alter the shape of the FH-2 gate output, as, per the post above, it does appear that the FH-2 has an additional rising edge upon the gate release. Have you not found that to be the case in your own testing?

In my initial tests, changing the output level and gate types does not seem to fundamentally change the shape itself. The smoothing, even just at 1, seems to dull the rising edge as well, rendering it less stable for clocking purposes. The only workaround I've found is changing the gate length (I assume because the second rising edge is triggered virtually simultaneously to the initial one). That works for triggers but not actual gates or clocks, where the gate off triggers another gate. In addition, a comparator helps filter the second trigger out -- but that isn't really practical for 8 outputs.

I’m not sure if the hardware is the same in the FH-2, but as I mentioned I am not experiencing any of these issues with gates or triggers from the Disting mk 4 which made me wonder whether this might be addressable in a firmware update.

Were this only appearing in a small boutique manufacturer I might not bother raising it. But Make Noise is a pretty reputable and widely used manufacturer. So I was wondering if there was a potential fix. I am certainly happy to help test some of these modules if that would be useful for you.

[os]

The FH-2 and disting hardware are quite different. The disting outputs are basically audio (like the ES-3 etc.).

I really don't understand MakeNoise's input circuit. Every other module would normally look at levels to detect a trigger - so they would only trigger when the voltage went above 2.5V, say. I don't understand why MakeNoise's are sensitive to slope, whatever the actual voltage. Seems weird.

But as you say they're widely used, so we have to deal with it.

As I say, I reckon it would be possible to make up a special cable to use for your MakeNoise inputs. Not tried it myself though.

[os]

It occurs to me that using an FH-2 envelope rather than smoothing would give you independent control over the attack and decay shapes.

[Naive Teen Idol]

Thanks, Os – I will try that. How would you propose I configure that for, say, an output generating a Euclidean pattern?

Edit: Specifically, what I mean is configuring the output so that the Euclidean pulse triggers the envelope as opposed to pressing a MIDI key.

[os]

I looked into this in some detail and it turns out there's a simple modification to the FH-2 output circuit which removes the ringing.

It's a simple matter of changing some resistor values:

FH-2 board A: R7-14
FH-2 board B: R9-16

All are 100K resistors - the change is to reduce them to 10K.

All FH-2s built from now on will use the new values.

[Naive Teen Idol]

I looked into this in some detail and it turns out there's a simple modification to the FH-2 output circuit which removes the ringing.

It's a simple matter of changing some resistor values:

FH-2 board A: R7-14
FH-2 board B: R9-16

All are 100K resistors - the change is to reduce them to 10K.

All FH-2s built from now on will use the new values.

Thanks, Os -- is this something that can be addressed with the old modules?

[os]

The equivalent resistors on the FH-1 would be R9-24 on the upper board (board B).

[Naive Teen Idol]

Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I meant on the old FH-2’s – as in, the one I have.

[os]

Yes. You need to replace the resistors, as I said.

[Naive Teen Idol]

Ah, I suspected as much but wasn’t totally sure “changing values” meant it was a hardware fix vs. a software one.

Interestingly, I had been coming to thread to note that the double ringing also happens when you trigger ... the Disting! I was experimenting with the Resonator algorithm’s drum percussion trick and found the FH-2’s Euclidean generator’s default gate length also causes a double trigger there.

At any rate, thanks for getting to the bottom of this, Os. As I am not (yet) handy or wise I the way of hardware modifications, I may not attempt this. But I appreciate you taking the time to figure it out.