6U full of R's

A place to discuss the brutal yellow evil we all love so much.

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neandrewthal
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Post by neandrewthal » Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:26 pm

Perhaps this thing could do the trick:

http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs63_psd.html

Image

Instead of the 5v part you could use the second relay for the second power supply.

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Post by Suburban Bather » Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:41 pm

TrashWaveform wrote:Also all your hot leads, commons, and grounds going into your power supplies can be tied into one plug if you intended using outlets on the same circuit. This would allow you to tie in an on and off switch too that can turn on/off all your PSUs at the same time. But if these are going into a protected power conditioner I suppose the way you have it set up will give it some slightly added protection.
Well, for right now both power cables are going into one power strip. Temporally my power conditioners are stowed away(still fussing about with getting my studio finished.) The power strip I speak of is also feeding power to an air conditioning window unit, laptop, and computer speakers/small sub. I have thought about the leads and grounds into one plug, but the plug per PSU seemed much easier to me. I have looked into the on/off switch solution, but I'd rather just worry about the power strip or conditioners going to my Metasonix rig. In my Metasonix case, each row has its own ground. I did not get any feedack/60 cycle hum problems. I really think that adding that DIY PSU and distribution board is the solution.

haricots wrote:do you ever feel the urge to lick those tubes?
Nah, I just wish that I would not burn my lips when I feel like showing my appreciation :lol: [/quote]

neandrewthal wrote:Perhaps this thing could do the trick:

http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs63_psd.html

Image

Instead of the 5v part you could use the second relay for the second power supply.
Thanks Drew, but like I've said before, this stuff is greek to me at the moment. I need full frontal pics with detailed descriptions :hihi:
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Post by metasonix » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:11 am

Thanks for buying all that stuff, SB. You're helping me to pay for endless crap (new washing machine this week--next week, a CV joint.).

I will recommend the 3.4 amp supply again, especially for that rack of yours.
If you have a space problem, small switching supplies could be used (these look suitable, for instance--very compact, would be okay if enclosed in a cabinet).

Here is the rule:

If a module draws 250 mA, assume you need more like 650-700 mA.
Because tube heaters are evil.

Switching supplies DO NOT HAVE ANY TRANSIENT CAPACITY. If you use switching supplies to run tube heaters, you MUST derate by a factor of 4. So if the normal load is 2 amps, you must use an 8-amp rated supply.

Modular World power supplies are okay for solid-state, but you have to upgrade for Metasonix. I've got a MW case, and I have no choice but to wedge a 3-amp supply into the damn thing--the existing supply won't run more than two R modules, plus some solid-state. Doepfer power supplies seem to have extra power-up capacity that most others don't.

It's possible to cut traces on the R boards and wire the heaters to a separate supply, but it's a big job and you'll still need a supply with the same capacity, so it doesn't buy you anything.

Use tubes that draw less power? They don't exist. I could use battery-radio tubes with direct-heated filaments, but they're scarce and usually don't have enough voltage gain to work in my circuits. Plus, those filaments are fragile and I"d be constantly sending people replacements.

Just remember, tubes suck. Tubes hate you. :deadbanana:

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Post by slovo » Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:08 am

Not that I'm dying to draw your engineering talents from something more awesome, like... a tube-powered VC vagina, but it seems like it might be good for your business to design a special power distro unit. Maybe it could be modeled after one of those rack-mounted power sequencers that turn things on 5 seconds after each other? I'm talking out my ass here, of course; I don't know what might go into all of this and I bet you're not excited about having to hold peoples' hands on this issue. But I also bet a lot of people are on the fence about buying more yellow due to power issues... or am I just underestimating the amount of work that would go into such a device?
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Post by TrashWaveform » Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:03 am

slovo wrote:Not that I'm dying to draw your engineering talents from something more awesome, like... a tube-powered VC vagina, but it seems like it might be good for your business to design a special power distro unit. Maybe it could be modeled after one of those rack-mounted power sequencers that turn things on 5 seconds after each other? I'm talking out my ass here, of course; I don't know what might go into all of this and I bet you're not excited about having to hold peoples' hands on this issue. But I also bet a lot of people are on the fence about buying more yellow due to power issues... or am I just underestimating the amount of work that would go into such a device?
I do not know why people keep asking Metasonix to fix this. It isn't their fault. Tube heaters are crazy power eaters but all tube gear is well. You just don't see this problem with other tube gear because nonmodular gear usually has their own supplies. Using a delay will only cause it to eventually over heat as mentioned in my linked post. If users want to do this right they need to understand the mA and get the proper PSUs to compensate.
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Post by slovo » Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:48 am

Settle down, sonny, some of us are trying to have a conversation. :yay:

...I understand what you're saying, though. I don't blame anyone. Just trying to help. :hmm:
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Post by Rod Serling Fan Club » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:48 am

That looks like a lot of fun, I’d love to try that out.

I think I’m going to try to put together 1 solid voice of tubiness that will be a mixture of metasonix and DIY. I’ve got an R-53 and intend to get an R-54 at some point. I’ve got 2 of Ken Stones tube VCA PCBs on the way. I have been talking to Lorin about working a phantastron into euro. Looks like it is very possible, I will just have to get a transformer and wire the phantastron directly to the incoming AC and he will need to cut down the component board.

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Post by TrashWaveform » Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:48 pm

slovo wrote:Settle down, sonny, some of us are trying to have a conversation. :yay:

...I understand what you're saying, though. I don't blame anyone. Just trying to help. :hmm:
I am chill. Just saying I don't think work arounds should be made by Metasonix to
accomidate cases that obviously need another or bigger supply.
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Post by slovo » Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:59 pm

TrashWaveform wrote:I am chill. Just saying I don't think work arounds should be made by Metasonix to
accomidate cases that obviously need another or bigger supply.
Fair enough! :guinness:
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Post by boramx » Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:24 pm

my mission 9 was quite full, including the one r53. it was sounding and running quite well.

the other day i went to a friend's balmy warehouse space (baltimore summer is brutal this year, and most years) and my whole modular just kinda cheesed out. i was surprised and disappointed since i hadn't had any such issues prior to that.

it may have been the inhospitable temperature in the space, i don't know. there have been other issues in that place with the circuits blowing when people run guitar amps and such - i don't think the electrical is so great.

but in any regard i knew i was pushing it with a full 9u case of modules including an "R" module. it's the new monorocket psu, which i've heard doesn't always hold up to it's specs.

i took the r53 out and everything was ok after that.

it's no joke that these things are thirsty for current.

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Post by Suburban Bather » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:50 pm

...
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Post by Suburban Bather » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:56 pm

boramx wrote: the other day i went to a friend's balmy warehouse space (baltimore summer is brutal this year, and most years) and my whole modular just kinda cheesed out. i was surprised and disappointed since i hadn't had any such issues prior to that.

it may have been the inhospitable temperature in the space, i don't know.
I know all about the B-more summertime heat in warehouses. Even when the sun goes down, it can still be brutal. Try candyflipping at a warehouse rave that is packed and only has a few industrial fans for air circulation. No A/C mind you. I'm amazed nobody died from a heat stroke. To make matters worse, you can't go outside. The private security is stopping anyone that appears to be rolling or tripping from going outside until the cops along with their mobile processing station leave.
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Post by TrashWaveform » Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:31 pm

slovo wrote:
TrashWaveform wrote:I am chill. Just saying I don't think work arounds should be made by Metasonix to
accomidate cases that obviously need another or bigger supply.
Fair enough! :guinness:
I am sober. Have another for me.
Suburban Bather wrote:
boramx wrote: the other day i went to a friend's balmy warehouse space (baltimore summer is brutal this year, and most years) and my whole modular just kinda cheesed out. i was surprised and disappointed since i hadn't had any such issues prior to that.

it may have been the inhospitable temperature in the space, i don't know.
I know all about the B-more summertime heat in warehouses. Even when the sun goes down, it can still be brutal. Try candyflipping at a warehouse rave that is packed and only has a few industrial fans for air circulation. No A/C mind you. I'm amazed nobody died from a heat stroke. To make matters worse, you can't go outside. The private security is stopping anyone that appears to be rolling or tripping from going outside until the cops along with their mobile processing station leave.
You are supposed to get naked to beat the heat.
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Post by dkcg » Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:43 pm

On a side note, I could not get both my R modules running reliably in my Lexington when I had it, only way was to practically give a bus to each module. My racks were fine, 3 rows, mostly lower powered non-digital modules, and 2 R modules, no problems with a 3A Condor power supply.

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Post by decaying.sine » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:05 pm

dkcg wrote:On a side note, I could not get both my R modules running reliably in my Lexington when I had it, only way was to practically give a bus to each module. My racks were fine, 3 rows, mostly lower powered non-digital modules, and 2 R modules, no problems with a 3A Condor power supply.
:eek:
Is each bus supplied by it's own 500mA supply? Is that what the deal is? That's a bummer.

Didn't we have a discussion about the possibility of +5 VDC for heating on the metasonix and Eric concluded that we'd all complain about having to get triple power supplies. I may be imaging that. I'd have no problem with that if it would work. Those little suckers are really cheap and easy to wire up. I might be imagining all of this though and feel to lazy to do the search :ripbanana:
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Post by zerosum » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:11 pm

Well, we have one R54, one R53, one R52, one R51 and one R60 prototype in the cheapeast ass doepfer case available(well I suppose the mini beauty case would be the cheapest available) which I believe is a 1200 mA power supply.

How the hell does it work? I don't know but it does. Doepfer uses a badass PSU? Magic?
It sure didn't work in the modularworld case :hihi: Two was the max :lol:
but in any regard i knew i was pushing it with a full 9u case of modules including an "R" module. it's the new monorocket psu, which i've heard doesn't always hold up to it's specs.

i took the r53 out and everything was ok after that.

it's no joke that these things are thirsty for current.
You should be fine with 1 R53 in a monorocket, there are others out there with 3, but it does depend on the combination of other modules.
Again, they only draw a bunch when they power up, then they drop back down.

R51=150 mA
R52=150mA
R53=200mA
R54=250mA

On power up the draw is atleast double that for each module.


Image

Very nice work! :tu:
Bummer about the power :cry:

Definitely get the larger power supply if it will fit.
Have you tried different combinations of connections to the power supplies yet?
Maybe try 2xR54's and 1XR-51 on one PSU and then the rest on another. :despair:

I think what's killing it is the two R-54's, they are the hungriest.

Good luck and send me an e-mail if you encounter anymore issues.

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Post by LorinP » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:26 pm

Here's how I've powered a couple Power One Supplies and a Phantastron within the same case:

Image

Notice a separate fuse on each supply. Power One and other supplies usually tell you which fuse to use. If there is failure along one supply line the fuse kicks in when it should. I don't suggest running supplies with a shared fuse -- they lose the safety features that they were designed with... For instance, in the above picture, don't use 1 2.5 amp fuse for everything (theoretically you could still blow a power one without popping the 2.5 amp fuse).

Also, a double pole switch is probably better. A single throw will work. Be sure and heat shrink and cover ALL points that have AC 110V (ouch).

All in all, it's not hard.

Eric is right, tubes run hot. So think bigger supply rather than smaller. As far as the Phantastron goes or my power boards, the wall-wart is replaceable with a 1-2Amp 9V transformer. I like the Part no. 149797 from Jameco. It's cheap & well contained. I also use toroidal transformers a lot. 2A is better than 1A -- the circuits will draw what they need (current wise) - better not to starve them.

Oh, and everyone who ever designs a good power supply builds in protection features. So make sure you're not overriding the features of the supply -- ie. Power Ones depend on that fuse, Phantastron has a fuse at the input and B+ output & a thermal protect.

Lorin

P.S. Don't hurt yourselves. If you haven't wired 110V AC mains then do it with someone who has -- it does hurt when it shocks you. But, don't be totally afraid, either, I've never seen a statistic for Synth DIY related deaths (and I've seen some REALLY dumb people do dumb things with electricity).

P.S. A Phantastron requires about .75A of heater current if people wondered. Sometimes it eats up more like 1Amp, though.

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Post by Suburban Bather » Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:07 pm

I'm just going to buy a busboard and build a 3U case. I have a Doepfer DIY Kit#1 PSU available. Previously, it powered 2 R-54's and a hand full of other euro modules with no problems. New 3U case for two R-54's and an R-60 will be cool.
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Post by wavehead » Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:41 pm

seems like the FOH power module might be a good solution for people needing more amps for their metasonix stuff... although I guess the complaint is that it takes up HP. I might be getting one for my MW case and will probably only be using one metasonix module by that point, I just think its important to have a lot of headroom in your power source (think Serge standards without the insane overpriced power options).

love the first sample in this thread... i have been thinking about starting off with one of the R series and would love to go into similar territory, but it seems like you need multiple metasonix in series to get there.

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Post by goiks » Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:50 pm

i didn't see it mentioned here, but ken stone's (http://www.cgs.synth.net/) power supply delay seems designed for the purpose of sequentially powering up groups of modules. the power supply delay page at his website is worth a read, and can be made to work for a 12v supply.

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Post by Suburban Bather » Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:57 pm

Finaly, I got my 6U case of R modules sorted :sb:

Third PSU is for two R-54's and an R-51. I don't know why I had to add an R-51 to that third PSU :despair: On the top row, its an R-51, 52, and 53. On the bottom row its, an R-52, and 53. Again, third PSU is for two R-54's and an R-51.
Image
Image
Image
Image






And a picture of one of my cats while I was working on this project :hihi:
Image

I'll post a recording later tonight :agonizer:
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Post by zerosum » Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:33 pm

:love: :yay: :nana:
Happy time! :yay:

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Post by Suburban Bather » Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:15 am

http://soundcloud.com/suburban-bather/hail-to-eric
Eric and Brian deserve a clap :yay:



Man am I craving for that wretch :agony:
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Post by zerosum » Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:16 am

This is that orchestral par tof the movie where everyone cry's because it is so Beautiful :lol: :hihi: :cry: :doh: :love: :lol:

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Post by Rod Serling Fan Club » Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:57 am

Suburban Bather wrote:
Man am I craving for that wretch :agony:
Seems like 2 of every eurorack module would be more powerful than the wretch (based on specs alone). I realize there are differences, the VCOs aren't them same, your EGs would have to be another manufacturer, etc. So I'm just curious what is appealing to you about the wretch over your current setup?

You really ought to consider adding yellow tolex to that case.

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