4ms & Matthias Puech — Tapographic Delay

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mikmanner
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Post by mikmanner » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:56 pm

A little tapo demo:

[video][/video]

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Post by Hi5 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:54 pm

Recently got one of these. Loving it and was afraid my Rainmaker would make it redundant but definitely not the case.
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Goiks: A eurorack setup is a contemporary folk instrument. Relatively accessible and portable. Largely by, of and for the people.

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Post by joskery » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:38 pm

Hi!

Anyone else have the same problem with quantization?

That is, when I turn the modulation to maximum (amounts slightly less than full CW sound nicer to me than a little more than fully CCW), the quantization goes off grid. I can't record a quantized tapography for the life of me. Turn modulation fully CCW, and everything's fine.

EDIT: Right, I think I see where the problem is – the LFO is way off to one extreme, but static, as per the manual. Any way to get the modulation to be slower than in the CCW range?

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Post by StateAzure » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:28 am

Just got one, and I think it's broken. Waiting for an answer from 4ms. After a while of messing around, I completely lose all audio from the outputs. I'm still very new to it, only had it an hour, so it could be user error? But just in the last 10 mins I figured out how to replicate the issue every single time.

Basically, if I select Preset 5, it breaks the audio out. All the lights still work etc like it is outputting audio, but it's dead. Try selecting previous presets does nothing to bring it back, except for a reboot.

:waah: This thing is incredibly fun when it's working!

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Post by StateAzure » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:53 am

I think I've fixed it. Updated to latest firmware (not sure if it needed updating). Problem still there. So I went through and reset/deleted all banks and that finally fixed the issue!

Phew, thought I was going to be sending this one back. It wasn't just Preset 5 on Bank A that was breaking it, also Preset 1 on Bank B broke the audio.

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Post by gpbelcher » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:28 pm

mikmanner wrote:I have a problem with the gate out on the tapo, it doesn't stay in sync. I've a phone recording of the problem here:

[video][/video]

Everything is coming off the same clock source but as you can hear the gate out on the tapo drifts after a while. At the end of the video I trigger the entity with the same clock through the voltage block and you can hear it's perfectly synced.

Experiencing this same issue. I have my system running off a master clock from Pams new workout, and I record taps in from Pams as well. At first the Gate Out is perfectly in sync then slowly drifts way out. Sometimes I can use the "Time" knob to nudge it back in sync but it's tricky and makes the delays go crazy. Anyone have a solution for this?
I find it hard to change tap patterns in sync as well - Would be nice if quantize mode also quantized pattern changing.

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Post by joskery » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:08 pm

I’d encourage reporting to 4ms, too (you’ve probably already done it, but just saying).

I wish the modulation could be tweaked a bit, there’s a bit too much ’crazy’ behind that knob.

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Post by mikmanner » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:30 pm

I mailed 4ms a couple months back about the gate out sync issue, haven’t had a response yet, hope a fix is coming in an update :)

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Post by dhoinjo » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:27 am

4mspedals wrote:The "timer" starts counting as soon as you switch to ADD. So if you flip to ADD, wait two seconds, and tap once, then it'll add that tap on the end (two seconds after the previous last tap).

However, if you flip to "ADD" and don't actually add another tap, then no changes will be made to your tapography.
Mine doesn't behave that way. If I flip the switch on the last tap and then add some taps, they should be placed where I play them at that time, right? If I flip it at the last tap, wait two seconds and tap once more, it should add a tap two seconds after the last one, right?
Mine places the taps somewhere between the others. But not as if I were in insert mode. Let me explain what I have to do in order to add at the end (and is almost impossible to do) I have to wait for the red led, flick the switch at the exact same moment the red led goes on, wait until the end and then tap. So the add function starts timing from the moment I flick the switch indeed. But it doesn't add it to the end, it adds taps after the beginning. Super frustrating. I tried downloading the firmware. Nothing changed. I bought this module two days ago, second hand. Is this normal behaviour? I need to know fast. Because if I want to return it, I can't wait a week.

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Post by dhoinjo » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:52 pm

No one having issues with the add switch?

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Post by dhoinjo » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:01 pm

mqtthiqs wrote:
taylor12k wrote:in terms of adding onto the end.. does it matter when you hit it? in other words, do you need to wait until the last tap sounds and THEN try to hit it? (i could see it being difficult to determine where the "last" tap is).. or, is there some calculation happening to determine how much space is added no matter when you make the ADD tap?
Hi Taylor,
Just to complete what Dan said earlier (only a few weeks late):
It does matter when you hit the sensor, but your intuition of this "when" being related to the sound you hear is incorrect. Remember that the input can be anything: percussive, in which case you would indeed hear a tap "sound", but also continuous (a drone), in which case there is no particular time when a tap "sounds". Think of what the module does, in first approximation, just as duplicating and layering n copies of the input sound shifted in time, just as you would do with Protools.

There is an internal "stopwatch" that counts time to determine where to place new taps; it starts when you first hit the sensor after a Clear (time zero, the dry sound); subsequent taps will introduce taps shifted by the time indicated by the stopwatch. This stopwatch just counts up when you are on ADD, or loops around the last tap when you are on INS or OFF. There are two visual cues to see where the chronometer is: 1/ the LED "bargraph" blinks blue each time it goes past an inserted tap and 2/ the red "Tap" LED flashes each time the chronometer loops back to zero.

Is it clearer? Page 13 of the manual explains this in a more detail if needed.
If all of this is correct, then I must have a broken unit.

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Post by mikmanner » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:30 am

dhoinjo wrote:
4mspedals wrote:The "timer" starts counting as soon as you switch to ADD. So if you flip to ADD, wait two seconds, and tap once, then it'll add that tap on the end (two seconds after the previous last tap).

However, if you flip to "ADD" and don't actually add another tap, then no changes will be made to your tapography.
Mine doesn't behave that way. If I flip the switch on the last tap and then add some taps, they should be placed where I play them at that time, right? If I flip it at the last tap, wait two seconds and tap once more, it should add a tap two seconds after the last one, right?
Mine places the taps somewhere between the others. But not as if I were in insert mode. Let me explain what I have to do in order to add at the end (and is almost impossible to do) I have to wait for the red led, flick the switch at the exact same moment the red led goes on, wait until the end and then tap. So the add function starts timing from the moment I flick the switch indeed. But it doesn't add it to the end, it adds taps after the beginning. Super frustrating. I tried downloading the firmware. Nothing changed. I bought this module two days ago, second hand. Is this normal behaviour? I need to know fast. Because if I want to return it, I can't wait a week.
Mine does this too, I think it’s because the initial typography length is set when there’s no taps, so you add within that length set out by the first tap sequence recorded?

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Post by dhoinjo » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:44 am

mikmanner wrote:
dhoinjo wrote:
4mspedals wrote:The "timer" starts counting as soon as you switch to ADD. So if you flip to ADD, wait two seconds, and tap once, then it'll add that tap on the end (two seconds after the previous last tap).

However, if you flip to "ADD" and don't actually add another tap, then no changes will be made to your tapography.
Mine doesn't behave that way. If I flip the switch on the last tap and then add some taps, they should be placed where I play them at that time, right? If I flip it at the last tap, wait two seconds and tap once more, it should add a tap two seconds after the last one, right?
Mine places the taps somewhere between the others. But not as if I were in insert mode. Let me explain what I have to do in order to add at the end (and is almost impossible to do) I have to wait for the red led, flick the switch at the exact same moment the red led goes on, wait until the end and then tap. So the add function starts timing from the moment I flick the switch indeed. But it doesn't add it to the end, it adds taps after the beginning. Super frustrating. I tried downloading the firmware. Nothing changed. I bought this module two days ago, second hand. Is this normal behaviour? I need to know fast. Because if I want to return it, I can't wait a week.
Mine does this too, I think it’s because the initial typography length is set when there’s no taps, so you add within that length set out by the first tap sequence recorded?
That doesn't make sense if the manual is correct. Maybe the manual is wrong. Or maybe I don't read it right. But 4ms clearly states that the timer starts counting when you flick the switch until you tap and that that time gets added at the end. If this is wrong, I'd like an explanation how it actually works. Mine certainly doesn't work like that. And yours neither apparently. Anyone else willing to chime in?

No reaction from support so far.

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dhoinjo
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Post by dhoinjo » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:48 am

To be clear on this: how it should work if I understand correctly is that the length is determined by the time between the first and the last tap. I switch to "add", tap a couple of times and I switch the switch back to "off". I switch it back to "add", wait two seconds and tap. That tap should be added two seconds after the sequence end. Mine is added two seconds after the sequence starts, so somewhere in between the other taps. That seems like a bug or some other kind of weird behaviour to me.

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Post by dhoinjo » Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:01 am

Actually, checked again, it's a little more complicated: If I flick the "add" switch, it starts timing from when the cycle passes the start for the first time until the new tap. That time gets added to the end. Super complicated to add something you had in mind.

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Post by Pailo » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:26 am

Timing starts after the first TAP when cleared and switched up into ADD mode.
Then another tap and another tap. Then switch down.

Its two taps. One for the "Tapo Tap Begin" and then Two that are they delay.

Its about pressing the sensor not flicking the switch.

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Post by dhoinjo » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:08 pm

Pailo wrote:Timing starts after the first TAP when cleared and switched up into ADD mode.
Then another tap and another tap. Then switch down.

Its two taps. One for the "Tapo Tap Begin" and then Two that are they delay.

Its about pressing the sensor not flicking the switch.
4ms says in this thread: to add taps afterwards, the time starts from the moment you flick th switch until you tap the first time. That time determines how long after the first series of taps the new ones will be added.

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Post by Superaction80 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:30 pm

mqtthiqs wrote:
Superaction80 wrote:
Well yes, simpler *is* easier :) If you just tap the sensor twice (one for the dry signal, one for the tap), you'll get the classic, single-tap delay you are used to (e.g. one side of the DLD, Clouds in looping delay, Chronoblob etc.).

Here is a quick, functional demo using Plaits and Marbles as sources of rhythm, melody and percussive sound. I insert a single tap with a gentle low-pass filter, and let Feedback do its repetition work; you see, it does exactly what you are used to. After a while I insert a second one to make things a bit more interesting and for a fuller stereo field. Finally I increase Feedback beyond unity gain to make it bloom into a natural, low pass filtered saturation tone.

[video][/video]

Does it answer your question Superaction80?
FYI I have had one for three months now and I love it. It’s fun and playable and I’m always immediately happy with the results.

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Post by dhoinjo » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:44 pm

don't see how this answers my question. I'm just wondering if mine is working properly. Anyway. No answer from 4ms, and no one here apparently can answer if the "add" mode on theirs works as described in the manual (and earlier in this thread.)

again:
4mspedals wrote:
The "timer" starts counting as soon as you switch to ADD. So if you flip to ADD, wait two seconds, and tap once, then it'll add that tap on the end (two seconds after the previous last tap).

However, if you flip to "ADD" and don't actually add another tap, then no changes will be made to your tapography.

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Post by lisa » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:57 pm

It’s a digital module. It can’t have a different behaviour from other units, in the way you are describing. It does what the software tell it to do. They all have the same software (more or less).

I have one but to be honest I haven’t really understod how it works so I can’t tell you why it behaves the way it does. Sorry. :oops:
You go too high too early! Although the pattern represents a variety of objects to many cultures - a plow, wagon, coffin, skunk, camel, shark, canoe, bushel, sickle, even a hog's jaw. If the date was a dance, it'd be a tango. It wasn't romantic. Rise, red as the dawn. Ungodly and full of digital dirt. Make Noise 0-coast and Soulsby Atmegatron heavy.


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Post by dhoinjo » Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:53 am

lisa wrote:It’s a digital module. It can’t have a different behaviour from other units, in the way you are describing. It does what the software tell it to do. They all have the same software (more or less).

I have one but to be honest I haven’t really understod how it works so I can’t tell you why it behaves the way it does. Sorry. :oops:
So are you saying that yours behaves in the same way as I described earlier? That would mean that the software doesn't function as described here in the thread. Which isn't necessarily a problem. I just need to know. I'm about to send it back and order another one but it is really hard to conclude anything without feedback from 4ms. Are they usually this slow to respond? I wrote them 6 days ago.

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Post by lisa » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:33 am

When I choose Add the taps are placed after the last tap that I already entered (the ”tape loop” becomes longer). So it isn’t behaving they way you are describing. But again, your unit can’t be faulty in a way that changes how the software operates.

Can you do a simple movie to show how it is set up and how it behaves? No sound needed! Start with a cleared ”tape”. Add two taps. Switch back to OFF. Switch to ADD again and add a few more taps. Done.
You go too high too early! Although the pattern represents a variety of objects to many cultures - a plow, wagon, coffin, skunk, camel, shark, canoe, bushel, sickle, even a hog's jaw. If the date was a dance, it'd be a tango. It wasn't romantic. Rise, red as the dawn. Ungodly and full of digital dirt. Make Noise 0-coast and Soulsby Atmegatron heavy.


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Post by jackpf » Sun May 05, 2019 1:45 pm

mqtthiqs wrote:Some delays, like the DLD, use rapid crossfading to reduce this effect: for a short amount of time, they keep two taps in the delay: the old location, fading out, and the new location, fading in. For this short amount of time there is therefore twice the amount of work to do; that's fine for the DLD, but the Tapo potentially has 32 taps to add up, which leaves no CPU cycles for doing double the work. During development I had the dilemma of either halving the available taps to 16 and to leave room for these transition crossfades, or keep the 32 taps, and have these "discontinuities" happening only in Sync mode (which are not exactly clicks btw, but have a certain character to them). I preferred the second option because to me, that's what makes the Tapo special, not the synced delay aspect. Does that make sense?
Hi mqtthiqs, just as a thought that it would be great to have this option of crossfading and sacrificing the taps. For example, I'm trying to modulate the delay time without the tape bending effect (so in sync mode) and I'm getting some unpleasant sounding clicks on each new value.

I also notice these clicks when triggering a new tapography in sync mode. I guess this is only a problem in sync mode, but unfortunately this is a mode I use quite often!

Apart from this, great experience with the module so far - really well designed!

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Post by ddoyen » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:38 pm

is it normal to not be able to get the velocity to register above 5 lit LEDs when you are manually tapping a pattern? If I use an external gate and cv into the velocity input, I can get it to go up to the last LED but no matter how hard I hit the pad, it wont go above 5.

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Re: 4ms & Matthias Puech — Tapographic Delay

Post by SuppleWhat » Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:01 pm

I have noticed that the fully "dry" output is quite distorted compared to the input signal. Anyone else experiencing that?

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