WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

[mdoudoroff]

Like my handy mixer comparison and sequencer comparison, I’m starting a sampler comparison:

https://doudoroff.com/samplers/

2019-09-24 kicked the DLD back down to the bottom of the page; other corrections
2019-09-22 by request, broke table in two: one for those that capture audio, and one for those that just play
2019-09-19 added (tentatively) Modcan CV Record, Supercell, Microcell and ISD, plus more edits
2019-09-17 added (tentatively) Clouds, more edits/augmentations
2019-09-16 added (nascent) latency column, corrections
2019-09-15 added 4ms DLD; many corrections and details
2019-09-14 added VPME, Doepfer and Ladik modules, ongoing basic corrections
2019-09-13 added Mungo g0, filled in more cells
2019-08-26 super rough first draft

I will endeavor to keep the comparison up-to-date and relevant over the long haul.

Cheers,
Martin

[Orange]

Cool!
What about adding max. sampletime/sample length ?

[Jaypee]

I know it s not strictly a sampler but since I saw the word 'granular' and since we can play/load samples, maybe you can add g0?

Thanks

[mdoudoroff]

[coolshirtdotjpg]

The Bitbox should also note that it can be 4 individual mono outs as well as two stereo outs. Also, wouldn't really call the Sample Slicer virtual tape. Not exactly sure what I'd call it, but it's sort of in it's own category since it automatically slices samples into 16 clock pulses.

[atte]

The 301 can record 6 (mono-) tracks at once with the 6-track recorder. Inputs can come from the outside or internally or a mixture.

All recordings units + 6-track recorder, record both audio and cv (IIRC), in 48kHz (or 96kHz if you're on the 96k firmware, which I never tried).

EDIT: And it has 16 (not 12) assignable CV ins (A+B+C+D+IN)

[mdoudoroff]

Thanks coolshirtdotjpg and atte: I have incorporated your corrections to the best of my ability.

I’ve also added a new column about clocked recording (one of Funky40’s suggestions), and adjusted the comparison to more clearly present the information about recording.

Keep the suggestions and corrections coming!

[novim]

The 4MS STS has End-of-Sample trigger outputs that I found especially interesting when I had one (and that I miss, now that I don't). An obvious use in a dual sampler is to have the two channels continuously triggering each other as they progress through their sample banks. But I particularly enjoyed modulating sample start and length, while using the EOS outs to clock an entire generative patch that expands and contracts, Krellishly.

I'd be curious if any other sampler modules have EOS outs. It's such a creatively useful feature. Fits so nicely with 4MS' clocky line. The STS is also a damned good sampler, btw. Powerful and straightforward.

[coolshirtdotjpg]

[mosorensen]

Thanks a lot for putting this together along with all your other work for the community.

Disting Mk4 can play 2 simultaneous samples (modes I7 and I8; used to be my drums).

NerdSeq can play 4 simultaneous samples (two tracks, two samples each), and it doesn't do any audio recording (it records CV and midi, no audio). Two mono outputs is exactly right.

[mcpepe]

You could expand the non-eurorack samplers with the Synthstrom Deluge. It is a full featured sampler and plays well with modular (2 CV outs, 4 gate outs, 1 clock in)

[sutekina bipu-on]

you forgot the OG! http://www.doepfer.de/a112.htm

one could also count the ladik romplay as an option under the "file player".

also could add the analogue systems rs290 which i always wanted to try, and vpme drum voice.

[mdoudoroff]

Thank you for the corrections and suggestions, novim, mosorensen, mcpepe, and sutekina bipu-on. I’ve tried to integrate them.

I’ve added and defined a new “type”—audio buffer—that I think captures the nature of modules like Tyme Sefari, Sampleslicer and the A-112.

I added the Ladik under duress. Technically, you can replace the EEPROM, but we’re getting close to WMD Chimera territory!

I’ve noted the RS-290 in the “other modules of interest”; I may yet add it to the comparison, but I can think of more than one reason not to.

[ookrsia]

This is great!


Noticed two things:

-4MS Dual Looping Delay misspelled: 4ms Dual Loopoing Delay

-4MS Dual Looping Delay link goes to 4MS Wav Recorder, this is the right link I think: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/4ms-company-dual-looping-delay



Just curious: I do not have a 4MS Dual Looping Delay so there might be something I do not know about it as a looper, but why does Magneto get to the list and not the Dual Looping Delay?


Edit: As I am currently looking for a certain kind of sampler, one info which would be useful for me right now, which is not in this list is: Can the module play the audio files at different speed (slowed down or streched)?

[Buttons ARE toys]

I love this! Thanks for putting in the work.

A few notes for the Reflex Liveloop:

- Sample rate is variable on both recording and playback, so you can record samples anywhere between 48kHz and 1.5kHz

- Max recording time is dependent on sample rate and the max recording time at 1.5kHz is 93.2 minutes

- Recording can indeed be clocked externally

- CV support for sample rate/pitch, slice selection, EQ band level, sample start and end points, sample length and position, granule size and granular playback rate/direction, and stutter mode settings

- The flash board expansion (not a separate module, it's a PCB that connects to the back) includes an 8 slot non-volatile memory that stores pretty much all settings at the moment you save including the recording, slice markers, effects settings, and sequence data.

- In additional notes you could include that it's capable of automatic peak slicing, has an onboard slice sequencer that can output its own clock signal, and the flash expander board also adds full MIDI control via TRS.

[slumberjack]

Nice work!

[mdoudoroff]

Another day, another update! Filled in lots more details. Thank you Buttons ARE toys for the Reflex info—I knew it was a kitchen sink module, and it was so overwhelming I didn’t even know where to start.

[col]

Eurotrash_mkII by mxmxmx

Also, it might be worth doing a column for latency, very important for one-shot, drum sample playing.

[Funky40]

[DruidTek]

The Load Runner is by Pulse Synthesizers (not Tin Shed Modular) and has 90 seconds of sample length.

Bitbox has 8 assignable EXT CV ins, and each cell is 4-voice polyphonic

[airfrankenstein]

I've had a relatively limited palette of samplers but for me it's important they all have a live recording input : began with a gieskes voice rec 2, then a dopefer a-112, a Ginko synthese sampleslicer afterwards, and currently a 4MS STS. In terms of functions and straightforwardness the 4MS is above the rest and yet I'm not drawn to use it. I find the bank system cumbersome, though nothing obliges me to use more than one bank. And setting start and end points on longer loops is not so easy despite the scrub function.
Ultimately I like the sampleslicer's interface best. Unfortunatel I don't think the maker is in a position where he can offer a better price :
a sampleslicer MK2 costs around 200 euros, while the MK1 can be found at about 150 used, not much of a match for the STS which can currently be had in Europe for about 350 euros and is a dual sample recorder with better resolution.
I had my eye on the squid salmple but watching the demos made me realise what I am actually looking for is a phrase sampler with adjustable start and end points, cv pitch control and an "end out trigger" priced below 150.

[kineticturtle]

[airfrankenstein]

Thanks for undertaking this endeavor mdoudoroff.

to me it seems that you've covered most of the columns. maybe the terms used could be clearer.

memory : volatile/non-volatile in addition to storage capacity
the capacity to recording one sample while another plays

for me a sampler implies the ability to record samples on the fly
as opposed to a sample player

In my ongoing quest for the perfect fit I've concluded, as is often the case with eurorack, that most every device is legit but where they differ is they way they allow you to work with sound material, so the logic behind the engineering as it's expressed through the interface is important. but that won't fit in your comparison...

[SyndieBot2000XL]

Very cool list.

I don’t see the Noise Reap ISD Sampler on here: https://noisereap.com/product/isd-sampler/

[Mungo]

[atrostor]

It’s not quite clear to me why Clouds doesn’t belong in this comparison.

[dubonaire]

[tiger001]

the Percussa SSP records 32bit float, 48/96/192Khz multichannel audio, so from 1 to 16 channels through hardware inputs, dc coupled
or 1-24 channels dc coupled through USB (with the first 16 mirrored/mixed from the HW)

it doesn't do trigged recordings

it has 8 assignable dc coupled (mono) outputs and 24 dc coupled outputs through USB (with first 8 mirrored/mixed from the HW outs)

the granular also takes live input or file(s)

[dekemcculo]

Grandpa can load two samples at a time, but can only one goes to the output at any one time. Simultaneous playback is not possible as the most recently triggered will choke the other, unlike the Squid sample which I think will play both samples 1 and 2 mixed together at the first output (I don't have a squid, but I do have a grandpa)

thanks for doing this martin

[mdoudoroff]

Wow, thank you all for the great feedback and corrections! I’ve updated the comparison best I can, and added a column for triggered latency (thanks, col). Lots of missing data there, but I nabbed all the information I could easily google.

dekemcculo, do you have a typical latency measurement for the grandpa?

tiger001, I’m quite surprised the SSP can’t do clocked/triggered recording!

SyndieBot2000XL, I added the ISD Sampler to the “of interest” list the bottom, because that’s where it seems to me to belong; I can be convinced otherwise.

airfrankenstein, I totally get it and will ponder; if I can narrow the comparison a bit (get rid of more outliers) then maybe we can be more precise?

Funky40, I’m open to jettisoning some outliers in order to focus the comparison more, but which ones?

[atrostor]

[mdoudoroff]

[continuum]

ONE -
16 or 24 bit WAV files up to 96kHz.
Sample playback rate 8kHz-96kHz.
FATFS SD Card up to 256 files.
File length limited by FATFS format.

[davidh]

super interesting will check the samplers I know/own

is it possible to have an option to sort samplers by column values, sort by price, simul sample, record length, quality etc. ?

[BaloErets]

Great initiative mdoudoroff. Couple of mentions if notes if relevant to others;

- Morphagene has an end of splice/sample output (much like the 4ms STS)
- the 4ms DLD has sort of an "End of Loop" output per channel.

As for if the DLD should be on the list, I agree it's tricky. In my eyes, a Looper sets its length by the user related to the length of the recording/loop. The DLD sets it's length by the delay time and the user has to adjust what they record to fit within it, so I have difficulties seeing it as a Looper.

It's more like a delay that has the ability to loop pre-recorded material.

[davidh]

latency of nebulae 2 is slow around 45ms, I mean when you trig it to use it like a drum, which make it a bad choice for a drum module

the trig input is still usable to sync a loop by ear and then play with the start

[MarcelP]

[sutekina bipu-on]

I'm with MarcelP here, I consider anything that can hold and play back a sample of audio to be a sampler, why bother trying to sort everything in boxes? Probably best to leave all the questionable ones in some sort of "not specifically intended to be a sampler but does sample" category, i'd be using the info in the chart to sort them out by usefulness for sampling anyway.

[dubonaire]

Not that I really care all that much, but I think you are changing the definition of a sampler, which has generally meant something that you store recordings on for playback later, to include sound processing which uses a buffer to temporarily store the sound for processing. That's why it's called a buffer, and not memory or storage. In digital technology, the term buffer has a precise meaning. You could arguably call a digital delay a sampler because it also buffers the incoming signal. Even an analogue delay holds the signal in a capacitor, so is that a sampler too?

Why bother to put everything in boxes? Because it helps people to understand what a device does. It's one way we make sense of the world, by not calling everything a fish, for example.

[tiger001]

[MarcelP]

[dubonaire]

[mdoudoroff]

Another day, another update! Big thank you continuum and those who emailed me with additional specs.

I have tentatively added Clouds to the comparison to see how it sits. If it seems to belong, then I will add Supercell, Microcell, and—I guess—one example of uClouds. If it doesn’t belong, then there are options:

1) revert to my initial inclination and just list Clouds as “of interest” at the bottom (and probably do the same with a few other modules in the table that don’t quite fit)

2) break the table up into multiple tables, one for file players, one for samplers that record, and maybe ones for granular and virtual tape; in which case, a few modules might appear in multiple tables with different columns of info

davidh: even if there was a sane way to sort a table on a web page by a column, much of the data isn’t consistent enough, and overall, there isn’t enough data volume to make sorting worthwhile.

[Neo]

Great resource, thanks for making that.

I measured my Disting mkIII at around 1ms for triggering samples

[tron23]

[jwm]

mdoudoroff i'd def add the modcan cv record to this

edits:

-i would also argue that the ISD would fit into the audio buffer category

-while there is mention of the tyme sefari expander, it might be worth mentioning that said expander allows for stereo operation (which is potentially good info for people looking into mono vs stereo)

[Tomorrow Sounds Good]

Thanks for the list gonna grab a Squid Salmple

[mdoudoroff]

Ok! I’ve updated the comparison again and added Supercell, Microcell, ISD and the Modcan VC Recorder. Also input a few more corrections. And thank you Neo and jwm.

The comparison is approaching peak breadth, at least in terms of the diversity of modules included. I suppose this is honorable in that it leads the reader to consider radically different options from whatever assumptions they brought with them. It certainly celebrates the diversity of Eurorack that no other modular format can come anywhere close to.

I’m not convinced lumping them all together is the best move, but I don’t have a compelling strategy, yet, for breaking them up. Will ponder.

Can one of you ER-301 jockeys weigh in on whether/how one does clocked recording on that unit, and what its triggered sample playing latency is like in practice?

[desolationjones]

Reported ER-301 latency is 8ms @ 48kHz, 5ms @ 96kHz, and 4ms for the experimental "low latency" firmware.

There are numerous clocked or triggered recording options. It's too much to list. But suffice to say that there are real punch-in/punch-out looper units, clocked varispeed playback, tap tempo, trigger behavior options, and loop mode options. Most of the functions can also be used to address sliced samples during playback. However, there is no way to automatically slice samples upon recording. There is granular pitch shifting but there is no "time stretch" playback unit yet for maintaining a constant pitch while changing playback speed.

[spilthyfred]

Glad to see the Radio Music on the list!

[continuum]

I would suggest using the same units for all measurements like latency. Some people might think microseconds and ms are the same unit.

[mdoudoroff]

Thanks for the info, desolationjones.

Agreed, continuum. Fixed.

[dekemcculo]

mdoudoroff sorry I don't think I have the tools to measure grandpa's latency — the "anecdotally some" seems obviously true, but anecdotally I haven't found it to be noticeable or problematic

one cool thing is a high gate makes it loop, meaning the "attack release" settings basically become an ASR based on the gate length. Not sure if it's relevant to your list really, but something I didn't know before getting it and now that I've written it I might as well keep it here lol

[MvK]

thanks mdoudoroff for that list. I want my first eurorack sampler this winter and this helps a lot.

[continuum]

[airfrankenstein]

Perhaps the question would be "Does clouds work well enough as a sampler (in looping delay mode for example) for it to be considered as one?"
It can record incoming audio as opposed to a sample player.

[Jaypee]

The trigger latency column is everything to me. Thank you!!!

[airfrankenstein]

@mdoudoroff

maybe divide into sample-players and samplers with live recording capabilites

[mdoudoroff]

Ok, I went ahead and split the comparison in two: top table is the modules that capture/record audio, bottom table is just players.

Does this help?

[sutekina bipu-on]

Hey mdoudoroff,

I think the current layout with a table for capture/recorder and a table for players is great.

Much like Jaypee I am about the trigger latency column. I think the only one i have on the list without measurements is the A-112; i'll get that and any others i can do asap.

...damn, 8ms on the nutella. That sucks!

[Funky40]

Much Thanks mdoudoroff for this work !
very helpful

[sutekina bipu-on]

Hey, was the tesseract nutella tsunami tested or is that the latency figure from the product page? The 8ms figure is from the Tsunami Super Wav Trigger product page, however the latest firmware for the Tsunami board itself notes that it's removed some code which limited how often the trigger inputs were scanned. I would think that would benefit latency greatly. I gotta get my unit updated and then I will get it done when I also measure the latency of my A-112.

[Gyroscope]

Man, I had forgotten about that GXN. I hope it's released some day.

[Buttons ARE toys]

Not sure if you want to add this all to the Reflex Liveloop entry or not, but I just noticed the exact record times at common sample rates are listed on the modular grid page.

174 seconds @ 48Ks/s 16 bit >CD Quality
248 seconds @ 24Ks/s 16 bit >FM Radio Quality
11.6 minutes @ 12Ks/s 16 bit >AM Radio Quality
23.2 minutes @ 6Ks/s 16 bit Retro Sampler Quality
46.4 minutes @ 3Ks/s 16 bit Min Voice Quality
92.8 minutes @ 1.5Ks/s 16 bit LFO, Wave making Quality

[jwm]

so right now, disting mk4 is listed under 'sample players', but technically, as of fw v4.8, it does record (and said recording can be played back, though it requires switching algos, which is a little cumbersome...)

food for thought is all.

[mdoudoroff]

I just booted the DLD off the main comparison and back to the list at the bottom, which, I am convinced, is where it belongs.

Buttons ARE toys: that’s a bit too much detail, but I tweaked the cell the clarify the extreme range of the device.

jwm: funnily, the Disting had some recording data in the beginning, but then I lost track of it; this is partly where nomenclature causes problems, as ES calls it an “audio recording” feature, not a “sampling” feature. I note that Disting’s sample rate is a little odd. Is Disting really suitable as a (recording) sampler, or is this really more a feature like the 4ms WAV Recorder?

[jwm]

[Funky40]

[mdoudoroff]

Funky40, I think the DC coupling question is adequately covered in the notes column. Just search the page on "DC" and you’ll quickly find all the modules.

Reflex is AC-coupled, although the “idiot’s guide” discusses recording “moving” CV.

[Severed head]

[bemushroomed]

Disting Mk4 does not have 1ms latency, it's more like 8 in my tests, the test is correct when it comes to Bitbox though, it's around 5, it's ahead of Disting mk4 in my tests..

Haven't updated to latest FW on my Disting though, but afaik sample latency has not been touched..

[Cinema Perdu]

not sure if these 2 belong in the list.. but they can function as a player/recorder


https://www.modulargrid.net/e/4ms-company-wav-recorder

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/alyseum-record

[mdoudoroff]

[mdoudoroff]