WIGGLING 'LITE' IN GUEST MODE

[deke]

I have a serous problem. When I use my Maths, channel 1 and or 4, as an envelope, it sounds too darn good. I have a A-140 and a Pons Asinorum, but they just don't measure up to Maths. Maths makes my modules (Black Wavetable VCO, Plaits, Studio Electronics Oscillation) sound so amazingly good. Fast and snappy, slow and everything in between is just sooooooo much better. The other two kind of pale in comparison. As a result, I end up not using Maths for all the other things it can do, even as a nice simple source of modulation.

Am I missing something with my ADSR/AD modules? Should I get a used Intelijell Quadra for a similar quality and versatility? Another Maths (half joking) or a couple of Contours? Something else?

[pieter]

I get what you're saying about Maths' envelopes. I have a Quadra and Stages, too, and I'd say Stages comes closest to Maths. I make Quadra snappier using the response curve on the intellijel VCAs, but those are mini pots. Maths is just so damn playable!

[LunaticSound]

Since the Contour on O Coast sounds just as good as Maths to me, I just ordered the Contours Module as well.

[PietroC]

I Love my Maths
But A Double Andore MK2 is definitely my favorite DUAL EG / VCA Combo
Expensive but armed to the teeth
Each are different and i would never let go of either

I really enjoy the Optomix but Vactrols / LPG has a specific sound
DAMK2 brings me to where i need to be sound wise and a lot more versatile for my personal sonic ambitions

Got me thinking Never tried the Maths EG Out to DAMK2 CV/IN though
Thanks For the inspiration

Cheers Happy Hunting

[mritenburg]

Maths is awesome, but you should get to know your A-140. Talk about snappy envelopes! The 3 different timing settings allow for super-wide operation. Its not sexy or esoteric like a lot of the flashy newer euro brands, but what it does, it does extremely well. It’s actually one of my favorite euro envelopes.

[deke]

[deke]

[luketeaford]

I have the opposite opinion which is why bother with anything else? I have 4 Maths.

[mritenburg]

[resynthesize]

i have tried many different envelopes, and maths is still my favorite. nothing else has quite the same shape. check out the erogenous tones radar, that probably comes closest and is my main "utility" envelope generator.

[cptnal]

Just because Maths can be loads of different things doesn't mean it has to be all those things. Maths is my go-to envelope too for the reasons described. And what I like most about it is it has all the stuff right there to take a step further than being a plain envelope and to make it sing. You have a secondary modulation source, loads of attenuversion, clock division, etc., etc.... In other words it takes something that makes something else go from quiet-to-loud-and-quiet-again, and gives you something you can use to actually craft your sound.

Of course there's more than one way of achieving anything in this game, but my point is the idea that using Maths "just" for envelopes is a waste is a specious one.

[southberry]

I know what do you mean ... beyond all it can do , Maths is also my favorite enveloppe module. But I also have a A-140 ... which is better suited for "keyboard like" things. When I use a midi keyboard / touch pad to play, I prefer to patch an ADSR . You can do an ADSR with Maths but it's pointless for my pov ... When you play with my hands I always dial all the A/D/S/R parameters to find the sweet spot ... maybe a Contour can do it but if you already have a A_140 I think you don't really need it ...

My solution was to add a Function near my Maths ... it can be a third ENV channel when you send it into Maths ch 2 or 3
I can totally understand why you can have 3 Maths in a 9U system

[Arneb]

[EATyourGUITAR]

if I can find the right slew and the right 281 or DUSG clone and a min max circuit and a compact comparator then I can finally ditch maths. I never liked maths even though I like maths.

[deke]

[deke]

[starthief]

I've tried several envelopes in my modular journey, but I really feel like Make Noise nails it. Maths, Function, Contour, all three just feel perfect.

[droningspaghettimonster]

the new klavis quadigy has the most advanced control over shape/time i've seen in a envelope module, the interface is genius and the price very good. i've not received it yet but i'm hoping to make it replace my maths for other duties.

[lisa]

I’ve said it at least ten times before but these threads keep popping up so here we go (): Maths is a fine envelope generator but if you only use it for envelopes it’s rather expensive and big. There are better options.

[insoul8]

How do you guys feel about the Frap Tools Falistri when compared to Maths / DUSG / Rampage?

[deke]

[damase]

watching the verbos youtube videos opened me up to a few more uses of the sustain stage in their multi envelope... like to patch a periodic gate from sequencer in to sustain vca input, providing another groovy/rhythmic level shift that can be dialed in subtle

i did like maths for envelopes a lot as well but it is a jack of all trades and the multi envelope is focused on envelopes. so its less flexible but more immediate for getting interesting shapes in that context.

[lisa]

[suboptimal]

At one point I had four Maths. I still have two, and have experimented with lots of different EGs over the years in the meantime. I recently re-acquired a Double Andore mk1, which I've been deeply happy with as a significantly different EG than the Maths. Lots of useful and interesting shapes there, though it's significantly more complex due to the wavetable approach.

With EGs, the pairing with the VCA is vital. In my first time with the Double Andore I didn't appreciate the utility of having integrated and therefore matched VCAs. It's not strictly necessary - I have a bunch of Intellijel uVCAs and find I can dial in lots of variation with those and Maths, but there are times when this combination doesn't get as snappy as the DA can.

TLDR: Don't forget to explore VCAs.

[Rost + Licht]

I found that Maths is especially beautiful on "opening" sustained sounds like pads or morphagene drones from a closed snappy chord to an really sweet decay. Combined with an LPG (I use the Metasonix) it gets nicely round in tone and just pleasent to the ear. Something about the precise fast envolopes of maths makes everything your combine with it detailed it seems for me.

I havent explored the many possibilites besides basic Patching and Gate extraction that much with Maths yet. Does anyone have an idea for extracting information you can use somewhere else in the patch from an Envelope for lets say an abstract Techno element? Something in the sense of an Comparator.
Would like to combine it with my Stages and O&C so that there is a useful dialogue between those.

Any hints much appreciated!

[chachi]

yeah I feel the same way, love maths and function, and I feel wasteful using maths as just envelopes but it sounds so good. i guess i could just buy four Functions and then feel like i’m not wasting space and functionality. but then why not just have that functionality around just in case? at least that’s what i tell myself.

[EATyourGUITAR]

[mritenburg]

[Foghorn]

The only difference between Maths and most envelope generators is the Exponential/Linear knob.
What people are calling "snappy" is simply an exponential response.
Function has an Exponential/Linear knob on it as does the Joranalogue Contour module and I am sure that a few others do.
Most envelope generators unfortunately lean more towards linear response curves.
The 2hp envelope has an exponential/linear switch, but no variable curve knob.
Tinrs "Edgecutter" has a knob called curvature, which I believe is the same function as Make Noises Exponential/Linear knob.


Foghorn

[mother misty]

[felix le chat]

[Foghorn]

[EATyourGUITAR]

The log mode on an ADSR is not the same as log on maths. Caps will charge an discharge with a log curve but it changes when you are charging or discharging a cap. Log mode on maths is a reversible waveshaper. Every x maps to a unique f(x) and every f(f(x))' = x. You could in theory route an exponential curve out of one maths into another maths and perform a log function in the correct amount to get a linear slope from a non-linear one. ADSR will look like log attack and exponential release if we are using the same language we use to describe maths curves. Then to make it more confusing, there are all these permutations of log ADSR into Lin or exponential VCA.

Just remember that a contour can replace maths but a ADSR can NOT replace maths entirely unless you only need a small subset of what maths can do.

[EATyourGUITAR]

[pieter]

Caps don't charge with a log curve, but with an exponential curve (just inverted and offset).

I have never measured the "log" curve on maths, but I suspect it is also an inverted and offset exponential curve.

[EATyourGUITAR]

[EATyourGUITAR]

[pieter]

Most of what you say is correct, except the bit that they are logarithmic functions. They are exponential functions. See e.g. here: https://electronicspani.com/charging-and-discharging-of-capacitor/

[EATyourGUITAR]

[felix le chat]

[pieter]

The potential of a discharging capacitor C over a resistor R (starting from V0) is

V(t) = V0 exp(–t/RC) .

This is an exponential decay.

Similarly, the potential of a charging capacitor is

V(t) = V0 (1 – exp(–t/RC)) .

The logarithm is the inverse of the exponential function (defined over the positive numbers only, if you do not extend it further to all complex numbers via analytic continuation). The logarithmic function does not accurately describe the voltage of the charging/discharging capacitor.

[huffnPuff]

[pugix]

A few questions for those using Maths for envelopes.

1) Do you use both sections to get ADSR? Or each separately to get two AD envelopes?

2) What curves are you typically dialing in?

3) Do you self-patch the Maths to get different curves?

4) Especially: What VCAs are you using, and what are their response curves like?

Thanks,

[huffnPuff]

1) It works great this way but I seldom see the need. I don't play keys.
2) I dial to taste, often somewhere between exponential and linear. Whatever sounds good.
3) It extends the range either way. Or you could (cross) patch an offset which is useful when you need an extra long or short envelope.
4) Practically all the VCAs I currently have on my rack are linear so the curve shaping comes from the envelope but it doesn't have to be this way as is implied by the question.

The best sounding VCAs I currently have are the ones on the Cwejman mixer (fast, quiet and clean but distortion sounds very harsh) and the Twiggy (very fast and clean but somewhat lower output). They sound great with whatever envelope I happen to be using. I don't find that I need, in the context of my system, to carefuly match the envelope generator and the VCA.

[felix le chat]

[felix le chat]

double post sorry, please delete

[luketeaford]

[electricanada]

[EATyourGUITAR]

[deke]

[EATyourGUITAR]

if you ditch maths for two functions or two contour, you will possibly want to get this.

http://www.doepfer.de/A172.htm

and maybe this too

http://www.doepfer.de/A167.htm

to replace the middle bottom stuff on maths.

notice the A167 can be used as a comparator and a 2 input mixer +/-offset at the same time! but it also has the hysteresis that maths does not have.

the 172 you could mult the same signal to 1+2 and also 3+4 that way it disables the 0v unpatched inputs. then you have DIY doepfer maths.

[chachi]

[MvK]

I dont get why people say it's a waste to use Maths "only" for its envelopes. I think ENVs are among the most important parts of a modular.

[peripatitis]

[EATyourGUITAR]

[cptnal]

[starthief]

To share one of my favorites posts ever from Lines:




To me, Maths is a very good dual envelope generator and a decent unipolar LFO. But it can step up and do several other things when I need/want it to.

Same with Stages -- my primary use of it is for single segment LFOs and decay envelopes.

For me, the real waste would be to buy another envelope generator module just so I could hold Maths and Stages in reserve for grander things.

[Alliex]

[moremagic]

[deke]

Since I started this, all the replies helped me understand a few things. 1. It is okay to use a complex tool for simple things. 2. There is a fair amount of info on Maths that can lead a semi noob to feel pressured or question 1. 3. Envelopes are fundamental and if you like the results, so what if it comes from module a b or c. I took all the advice I could here and am now getting much better results with my Doepfer, am using the Pons for some things it is suited for, and happy with Maths for an envelope or even two.