Zadar as ADSR?

Cwejman, Livewire, TipTop Audio, Doepfer etc... Get your euro on!

Moderators: luketeaford, Joe., lisa, Kent

Post Reply
User avatar
msegarra
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:33 pm
Location: United States

Zadar as ADSR?

Post by msegarra » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:51 pm

I’m trying to figure out if I want to get the Zadar module but i guess my main sticking point is can it do adsr type envelopes![/list]

SavageMessiah
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 271
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:48 pm

Post by SavageMessiah » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:03 pm

More or less. You can set the hold point a little bit down from the peak on an appropriately shape and get something pretty ADSR like. You don't have individual control like on a dedicated ADSR though. I use it for this purpose all the time, I don't have a dedicated module for it and I tend to be too lazy to set up 4 segments of stages lol.

User avatar
mdoudoroff
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 3811
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:10 am
Location: New York City

Post by mdoudoroff » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:14 pm

No, Zadar is not an ADSR.

If you look at the shapes chart:
http://xaocdevices.com/manuals/xaoc_zadar_chart_2.0.pdf

You will see that the third and fourth shapes in the first row resemble a canonical ADSR envelope. You can distort these envelopes in various ways unique to ZADAR, and that includes with CV control. But that’s different from a parametric ADSR.

If you need a parametric ADSR, I recommend look at Klavis Quadigy. I have both Quadigy and Zadar, and for me they serve rather different purposes.

User avatar
msegarra
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:33 pm
Location: United States

Post by msegarra » Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:30 pm

mdoudoroff wrote:No, Zadar is not an ADSR.

If you look at the shapes chart:
http://xaocdevices.com/manuals/xaoc_zadar_chart_2.0.pdf

You will see that the third and fourth shapes in the first row resemble a canonical ADSR envelope. You can distort these envelopes in various ways unique to ZADAR, and that includes with CV control. But that’s different from a parametric ADSR.

If you need a parametric ADSR, I recommend look at Klavis Quadigy. I have both Quadigy and Zadar, and for me they serve rather different purposes.
Damn thanks I never heard of quadigy that might be my next envelope generator lol

GregIcky
Common Wiggler
Posts: 112
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:27 pm
Location: PNW

Post by GregIcky » Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:36 pm

Not a lot of info on the Quadigy. But that thing looks like the mother of all ADSR’s with the ability to loop as well.

User avatar
nios
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 274
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:32 pm
Location: lost in a dream

Post by nios » Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:22 pm

So Zadar does have several envelopes that look much like the form of a traditional ADSR, however you can't individually adjust the A/D/S/R but rather logarithmically squash/stretch the whole thing as one shape (which is how Zadar works overall). The beginning shapes are very simple and the ADSRs are somewhere in there. However because you can squish down either right or left hand side of a shape, you can in effect reduce/increase attack and release times. Same goes for any shape besides ADSR really, you can add a long tailed release or long attack on I think any of the curves it generates. Basically using it is like working with an AR envelope in fashion only it quickly spits out wild and inspiring CV that normally would take a lot of time and modules to patch up and would be far harder to manipulate elegantly.

Overall Zadar also can do literally hundreds of envelopes traditional ADSR never could and responds to CV in a more audible manner as well than the few ADSRs out there with CV over all stages (on which, besides attack/release lengths you only can really hear modulation going in on sustain). The obvious answer to me is to simply have it as well as at least one ADSR, so you aren't missing anything as Zadar plays like an AR.

GregIcky
Common Wiggler
Posts: 112
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:27 pm
Location: PNW

Post by GregIcky » Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:40 pm

I'm on the same envelope quest. I only have 24hp left NOT including Zadar. So only 10 left with it. I do like a lot about it, but with only 10hp left and no other envelopes I'm kinda stuck. I'd like at least a Dual ADSR but 10hp is pushing it. Any suggestions?

User avatar
nios
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 274
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:32 pm
Location: lost in a dream

Post by nios » Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:05 pm

It depends if you want a dual+ ADSR in 10hp - Doepfer just made such a module in 8hp, or if you want a more functional single ADSR. I like the Instruo Ceis a lot, which itself seems like a tweaked version of the Befaco VC ADSR as they both offer continuously-variable expo/log over the envelope, CV over all stages and gate outs for each stage (which is super cool/useful). Erica Synths makes both, with a dual ADSR model and a single but full-CV ADSR in 10HP, with the difference in their fully-CV ADSR from the others being in having attenuators for that CV but no end of stage gate outs - which may or may not be more useful depending on usage.

Alternatively if anyone was planning to get a Maths but hasn't yet, the Frap Tools Falistri is quite similar to it, however also can set its generators to ASR, which gets you far closer to the playability of an ADSR without needing a dedicated unit. It's by definition not the same of course, but does let you hang notes at-will which is hugely impactful. The IME Double Andore MkII is also Maths-like (not as much though) and also can do ASR, but comes with a built-in VCA for each generator, which could be useful in a compact case - however DA mkII is generally hard to find.

User avatar
circuitburst
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 395
Joined: Mon May 16, 2016 11:17 am
Location: California

Post by circuitburst » Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:36 pm

nios wrote:Overall Zadar also can do literally hundreds of envelopes traditional ADSR never could and responds to CV in a more audible manner as well than the few ADSRs out there with CV over all stages (on which, besides attack/release lengths you only can really hear modulation going in on sustain). The obvious answer to me is to simply have it as well as at least one ADSR, so you aren't missing anything as Zadar plays like an AR.
With Zadar's firmware update adding the sustain feature, can't Zadar be thought of as an ASR, where the Attack and Release stages are transient shapes before and after the sustain point?
"make the events occur that you want to occur" - the black dog

https://soundcloud.com/circuitburst
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/295055
:boat: World Map of Eurorack Module Manufacturers: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewe ... 9IMDP34-ao
World Map of Eurorack Module Physical Shops: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewe ... gfSeJ6wVIG

GregIcky
Common Wiggler
Posts: 112
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:27 pm
Location: PNW

Post by GregIcky » Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:52 pm

I'm curious on how you use Quadigy and Zadar? I can see where they would both be useful. I've got an A/R already (Pons Asinorum).

I sitting on a Zadar thinking of returning it for the Quadigy. I don't have maths either. I'm running out of space!

I've got 2 dual oscillators and was gonna get rid of my Doepfer 142-3 quad for the real estate. I've got yarns and wanted to use it for polyphony. Didn't realize that the Zadar won't sustain with a gate (keyboard)

That Doepfer dual would fit in my last 10hp (if I kept the Zadar) but then I am almost maxed out! And if I use the last 24hp and got maths, I'd still have no ADSR.

I know, I know SKIFF! But dang... that rabbit hole.... Does anyone ever "finish" their rack?

GregIcky
Common Wiggler
Posts: 112
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:27 pm
Location: PNW

Post by GregIcky » Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:58 pm

[/quote]
With Zadar's firmware update adding the sustain feature, can't Zadar be thought of as an ASR, where the Attack and Release stages are transient shapes before and after the sustain point?[/quote]


Does this mean that an update can make it sustain with a keyboard?????

SavageMessiah
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 271
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:48 pm

Post by SavageMessiah » Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:22 pm

GregIcky wrote:
With Zadar's firmware update adding the sustain feature, can't Zadar be thought of as an ASR, where the Attack and Release stages are transient shapes before and after the sustain point?

Does this mean that an update can make it sustain with a keyboard?????
Yes, and nios offered a much better explanation of what I meant when I said zadar is "more or less" and ADSR. I certainly use it that way.

GregIcky
Common Wiggler
Posts: 112
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:27 pm
Location: PNW

Post by GregIcky » Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:15 pm

Sorry, is there some place I can confirm this? I looked at the Xaoc site and searched the forums but can't find anyting about Zadar sustaining when a key is held. I'm about to return it, and that would be the deciding factor.

So to be clear, Zadar can sustain like a regular ADSR when a key is held on a midi controller if the firmware update is applied.

I don't see how tho. Is this a setting that they've added to their menu? Is it and on/off type of feature?

User avatar
Hovercraft
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1219
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:22 am
Location: DC

Post by Hovercraft » Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:30 pm

From the manual—

“ Press the sus/level encoder D to toggle be-tween sustain and level parameters. The sustain sets the point on the envelope to be held whenever a gate signal fed into trig input is high. The position is indicated with a vertical dashed line. note: to disable the sustain stage, simply move the sustain point to the very end of the envelope until the display reads off.”

GregIcky
Common Wiggler
Posts: 112
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:27 pm
Location: PNW

Post by GregIcky » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:01 pm

Hovercraft wrote:From the manual—

“ Press the sus/level encoder D to toggle be-tween sustain and level parameters. The sustain sets the point on the envelope to be held whenever a gate signal fed into trig input is high. The position is indicated with a vertical dashed line. note: to disable the sustain stage, simply move the sustain point to the very end of the envelope until the display reads off.”
Yeah, I have the manual. But that does NOT mean that when you hold down key on a midi keyboard that the "sustain" portion will sustain the entire length of the gate (key held = high). What that is referring to is the point where sustain starts. My experience is that it only sustains for a predetermined amount of time. It's basically a "triggered" envelope.

Holding down a key would dynamically have to change the sustain length and that length would change depending on how long you HOLD the key down, like a normal ADSR. But like md said above it is NOT an ADSR, it acts more like an AR and gate length basically has no effect.

I'm asking if the firmware update changed this? But it looks like the 2.0 manual is the new firmware manual.

So no, it doesn't change the Zadar into what I would like it to be.

It's seems really odd to me that they would not have a toggle feature that would simple turn on/off the sustain to either a predetermined length or a key-held length. Seems like a no-brainer with all the functionality it has built in. How hard could that be.

Unless someone can show me that I'm wrong, from what I can tell there in NO WAY to make Zadar behave like a "normal" ADSR and use to play a keyboard with.

User avatar
drewfx1
Common Wiggler
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue May 26, 2015 11:24 am

Post by drewfx1 » Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:26 am

GregIcky wrote:
Hovercraft wrote:From the manual—

“ Press the sus/level encoder D to toggle be-tween sustain and level parameters. The sustain sets the point on the envelope to be held whenever a gate signal fed into trig input is high. The position is indicated with a vertical dashed line. note: to disable the sustain stage, simply move the sustain point to the very end of the envelope until the display reads off.”
Yeah, I have the manual. But that does NOT mean that when you hold down key on a midi keyboard that the "sustain" portion will sustain the entire length of the gate (key held = high).
Yes it does. I use it that way by default.

SavageMessiah
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 271
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:48 pm

Post by SavageMessiah » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:21 pm

Yeah, it works exactly the way you want it to, I've used it that way plenty of times. When you set the sustain position you're picking where a normal sustain segment will be inserted into the shape. It works just like a normal ADSR or ASR, it sustains for the entire time the gate is high. The sustain level is the voltage of the envelope at the point where you insert the sustain.

GregIcky
Common Wiggler
Posts: 112
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:27 pm
Location: PNW

Post by GregIcky » Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:09 pm

I had a chance to try it out. The sustain “point” is off by default which means it’s all the way off the left side of the screen. If you push the encoder the dashed line shows up (kinda hard to see) like it mentions in the manual. Then you adjust where the sustain point will be (which also turns the feature on) on the vector shape.

Thank you all for chiming in on this! Now I’ve got a kick-ass device that I can wig out on for eternity!

Cheers!

Post Reply

Return to “Eurorack Modules”