Behringer System 55

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KSS
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:34 pm

Deos anyone else remember seeing Seb of Mos-Lab's post a few months back -I saw them on Matrixsynth, but it was reported on several sites- about his email from Uli Behringer, asking if he -Seb- was interested in coming to work together?

Was around the time Rob of AMSynth's reached out to Uli, and we know he's working with Behringer on the B2600.

Seb did not at that time say whether he did or did not end up working with Behringer. I am Facebook free so do not follow FB sites. Point is, if Mos-Lab's involved with these B55 modules, there's a pretty good chance they're going to be very good.

Anybody know if he ever posted a follow up?

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SynthBaron » Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:10 pm

Seb has had over a decade to refine his product to achieve the Moog sound using modern parts, so I wouldn't be surprised.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Stoneyards » Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:34 am

KSS wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:04 pm
Just read the entire thread, and since there's no easy way to quotes the many posts with inaccurate or misleading information, this will surely miss some of them. Am here to discuss the technical and performance aspects, my feeling about B otherwise is documented in other posts and threads. Am old enough to remember when all this was new technology, and am writing from direct experience...
This is the star comment in this thread, thank you. Highly informative.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Ceres » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:46 am

KSS wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:34 pm
Deos anyone else remember seeing Seb of Mos-Lab's post a few months back -I saw them on Matrixsynth, but it was reported on several sites- about his email from Uli Behringer, asking if he -Seb- was interested in coming to work together?

Was around the time Rob of AMSynth's reached out to Uli, and we know he's working with Behringer on the B2600.

Seb did not at that time say whether he did or did not end up working with Behringer. I am Facebook free so do not follow FB sites. Point is, if Mos-Lab's involved with these B55 modules, there's a pretty good chance they're going to be very good.

Anybody know if he ever posted a follow up?
It would be very promising if Seb is involved. It would also make sense to some extent why Behringer might keep S-Trigs since Seb sticks close to original designs. If they are really going for authenticity in sound and function to the original, I expect the oscillators would also output lower audio voltages (compared to euro) like the original and keep gain-staging the same as original throughout. I would seriously consider picking up a system IF they get it right and it sounds right.

Of course, the other side of keeping to original specs means it’s not going 1:1 compatible with euro. You’ll need to do trigger conversion and audio level conversion. For my interest if it’s a trade-off between sound and better euro compatibility, I’d take sound quality. After all, what’s the point in replicating a vintage system like this if you aren’t shooting for the original tone?
If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Bogus » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:36 am

How do you guys feel about the fact that an entire Behringer system 55 will likely cost as much as a single Moog system 55 module (if they sold them individually)

I'm already counting my pennies to build a mini Emerson :hihi:

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by msboude » Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:29 am

Bogus wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:36 am
How do you guys feel about the fact that an entire Behringer system 55 will likely cost as much as a single Moog system 55 module (if they sold them individually)

I'm already counting my pennies to build a mini Emerson :hihi:


Some people can afford a Ferrari, some can afford a Fiero.

There are many other cars to choose from as well.


Edit, myself personally would choose something different since I don't want a fake Ferrari and there are much nicer cars than a Fiero.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by EPTC » Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:38 am

I'll say this - I know this is likely not final form, but the sounds that start at :33 of this video are thinner sounding than five sheets of dried pasta.


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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by numan7 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:38 pm

EPTC wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:38 am
I'll say this - I know this is likely not final form, but the sounds that start at :33 of this video are thinner sounding than five sheets of dried pasta.

:confused: i didn't realize pasta had a sound. are they demonstrating high-pass filters (which is what i usually think of when someone says a sound is "thin") ? and do you mean something like capellini or more like linguini (big difference)?

(:hmm: ...wait! you wrote "sheets"... so is it lasagna then? i would expect those to sound more 'woody' rather than 'thin')

:) anyways could you please suggest to us how to patch what you think pasta sounds like, EPTC?


cheers
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by numan7 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:43 pm

numan7 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:38 pm
EPTC wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:38 am
I'll say this - I know this is likely not final form, but the sounds that start at :33 of this video are thinner sounding than five sheets of dried pasta.

:confused: i didn't realize pasta had a sound. are they demonstrating high-pass filters (which is what i usually think of when someone says a sound is "thin") ? and do you mean something like capellini or more like linguini (big difference)?

:hmm: ...but wait, you wrote "sheets"... so is it lasagna then (i would expect those to sound more 'woody' rather than 'thin')?

:) anyways could you please suggest to us how to patch what you think pasta sounds like, EPTC?


cheers
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by msboude » Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:48 pm

?:) anyways could you please suggest to us how to patch what you think pasta sounds like, EPTC?


It sounds like the Behringer in that video.. obviously! haha

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Kreis » Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:48 pm

EPTC wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:20 pm
polyroy wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:37 am
Is anyone making a fixed filter bank using inductors? In any format?
two great ones in 5U:

https://www.synth-werk.com/content/modules
http://www.cluboftheknobs.com/modules.html
The AJH Synth FFB914 (Eurorack Format) is inductor based!

https://www.schneidersladen.de/en/ajh-synth-ffb914.html

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by EPTC » Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:59 pm

Kreis wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:48 pm
The AJH Synth FFB914 (Eurorack Format) is inductor based!
https://www.schneidersladen.de/en/ajh-synth-ffb914.html
"Based" being an important word here. They admit to being based on inductors, not using them. I'm sure it's groovy, still. Just not inductors.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by EPTC » Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:05 pm

numan7 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:38 pm
:) anyways could you please suggest to us how to patch what you think pasta sounds like, EPTC?
Ha, well I'd suggest using the Behringer 55 vco's to patch into the Behringer filter.

I meant it sounded really thin. I was making dehydrated pasta as a figurative example. You know, nice fresh rolled pasta has a gooey dough like elastic pull to it. And then there's the dried linguini or dried lasagna you get in the grocery store. You can still eat that pasta but it's crunchy and dried out. You gotta boil it to get it soft, probably with some reverb.

That's sort of what that sound example sounds like to my ears. Thin cardboard packaged linguini. prego red sauce, no salt!

Where's the hum of life that you normally get when you hear these things?

Very similar simple patch here around :58 of this video below, compare to the Behringer video above - both are showing a high frequency turn of the dial.

This example, however, tickles my chest like pasta primavera, al dente - I mean these things literally make buildings rumble:


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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Kreis » Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:38 pm

EPTC wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:59 pm
Kreis wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:48 pm
The AJH Synth FFB914 (Eurorack Format) is inductor based!
https://www.schneidersladen.de/en/ajh-synth-ffb914.html
"Based" being an important word here. They admit to being based on inductors, not using them. I'm sure it's groovy, still. Just not inductors.
Hm, din't know that! It's indeed missleading then... :confused:

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by pelang » Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:48 pm

EPTC wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:59 pm
Kreis wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:48 pm
The AJH Synth FFB914 (Eurorack Format) is inductor based!
https://www.schneidersladen.de/en/ajh-synth-ffb914.html
"Based" being an important word here. They admit to being based on inductors, not using them. I'm sure it's groovy, still. Just not inductors.
from the AJH website:
For the FFB 914 we have used Gyrator based active inductor circuitry which exactly replicates the vintage passive inductor / capacitor based filter design - this is an important design element, because a major difference between the two topologies is that the phase change versus frequency is lower with L/C filters compared to Sallen Key R/C filters.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by EPTC » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:48 pm

pelang wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:48 pm
from the AJH website:
For the FFB 914 we have used Gyrator based active inductor circuitry which exactly replicates the vintage passive inductor / capacitor based filter design - this is an important design element, because a major difference between the two topologies is that the phase change versus frequency is lower with L/C filters compared to Sallen Key R/C filters.
I'm not sure if you're quoting to agree or refute that AJH aren't using actual wound coil inductors.

AJH makes great sounding stuff - but just for discussion, gyrators are described here as "simulated inductors": https://sound-au.com/articles/gyrator-filters.htm - I'm confident a basic sound can get close, in the same way Verbos' bark filter gets very close to the sound, but curious if a gyrator can overload and saturate like an electromagnetic coil.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SynthBaron » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:21 pm

The Behringer 921's sounded like 921's, from having owned them.

No CP3 in the module line-up though, just the IC-based CP3a, so there goes an important component of that Moog Modular sound that seems to be lacking as an overall mix of components here.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by pelang » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:36 pm

EPTC wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:48 pm
pelang wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:48 pm
from the AJH website:
For the FFB 914 we have used Gyrator based active inductor circuitry which exactly replicates the vintage passive inductor / capacitor based filter design - this is an important design element, because a major difference between the two topologies is that the phase change versus frequency is lower with L/C filters compared to Sallen Key R/C filters.
I'm not sure if you're quoting to agree or refute that AJH aren't using actual wound coil inductors.

AJH makes great sounding stuff - but just for discussion, gyrators are described here as "simulated inductors": https://sound-au.com/articles/gyrator-filters.htm - I'm confident a basic sound can get close, in the same way Verbos' bark filter gets very close to the sound, but curious if a gyrator can overload and saturate like an electromagnetic coil.
no, they don't use coils, of course. I was quoting from there website, as they don't claim they use actually coil inductors.
Btw: I do have a serge ResEQ, the Döpfer A128 Fixed filter bank and the FFB 914 which sounds best to my ears. But i can't compare it with a org. moog

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by EPTC » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:43 pm

ah - gotcha - rock n roll, pelang :coffee-cheers: - cheers!

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by galanter2 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:15 am

No coils? But it’s $600 nevertheless.

I’ll have to hear the $99 Behringer Moog clone first.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Bogus » Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:44 am

I'm of the contention that it's the producer not the gear that makes the sounds desirable. And you better believe I'd tear up on a behringer system 55

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by KSS » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:00 am

SynthBaron wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:26 pm
You'd probably have to have the rotary switch custom made for a product run. Whether that's worth it for Behringer or not remains to be seen. I think Mos-lab discontinued their 904C due to not being able to find a suitable replacement part once they ran out of stock:
The simple, effective and easy way to re-create that 5P3T switch for today is to use five PCB mounted DP3T slide switches, actuated by a disk with curved trapezoid slots. Shaft thru cannabalized pot bushing to disk. Turn shaft, disk engages radially mounted slide switches, effecting actuation and operataion of needed multi-pole switch. It can be a powerful method.
Need to confirm MBB or BBM switch timing, but past this concern it works well when parallel-to-panel PCB construction is used. (in the example given one of the poles of the 5th switch is unused.) edit to correct that 5 2p3T SW will be needed for classic clone.

Fairly simple DIY, and a doddle for a company with Behringer's resources.

Having typed all that, I *do* miss being able to go into a local electronics distributor or TV repair shop to pick up Build-a-pots and stack-a-switch modular components. Ah, those were the days! Though in this case even being able to source the old style stack-a-switch would not fit modern space constraints, while my method does! :tu:
Last edited by KSS on Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by SynthBaron » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:16 am

Here's the Arcenson 904c clone for comparison (http://www.arcenson.com/projects/Modula ... 04C_clone/):

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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by DJMaytag » Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:18 pm

ablearcher wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:15 pm
wait wait, back up a sec, someone mentioned it but lets go back to it...

Why the hell Are they bringing S-trig to eurorack??
Because that's what the Moog 55 used, and that's what the schematics were. Transistors were expensive then, so S-trig was a cheaper way to do it. Now Uli gets to make more profit because he can shave a penny or two off each module that uses an S-trig input/output.

It's stupid AF and is going to cause them a TON of headaches when people buy individual modules and try to put them in the existing Eurorack, or stick their modules into the open spots in a base Boog 55.
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Re: Behringer System 55

Post by Funch » Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:14 pm

Crimesofthecrown wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:37 am
Hates will say it was photoshopped.
did that happen?or is your post just a matter of B fans being obedient to the "cult of URI"?

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