Klavis Twin Waves, some demo of the FM capabilities?

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julubudu
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Klavis Twin Waves, some demo of the FM capabilities?

Post by julubudu » Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:45 pm

Hi there!

This Klavis Twin Waves looks pretty interesting, with a very wise compromise between the number of features packed in a small size, and the interface usability.

Osc 1 is supposed to support linear FM, and being through-zero. I'm very curious to hear some FM on that module, especially in the TZ domain. To those who own it: any opinion on how it sounds in this particular combination?

I would be most grateful if someone would be as kind as to post or link to some demo of the FM capabilities of this promising little beast. :hail: It could be some simple modulations of osc 1 by some sine coming from osc 2, or any external clean sine, through a VCA.

Thanks, and sorry for my eventually broken english!

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matcsat
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Post by matcsat » Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:35 pm

Hi,

i attempted a video from your request.

[video][/video]
The first 40 seconds are silent.

Modules used:

- Klavis Twin Waves dual digital VCO/LFO
- Doepfer A-132-3 dual vca version 1
- Doepfer A-171-2 VCS
- Ladik U20 buffered multiple
- MFB dual LFO
- Xaoc Devices Sewastopol

Audio recorded with Tascam DR70D

Osc 1 FMed by osc 2 thru vca.
Both osc are simple sine.
When the modulator, osc 2, at high pitch it's noticeable a degradation of the FMed signal.
In the same context the osc 1 is free to cover the entire range.
There are pitch changes over certain FM deep.

Hope it answer your question.

Marco.

edit:
two important things: no musical purpose in the video and no attempt whatsoever of making bell sounds, just one osc fm another.

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julubudu
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Post by julubudu » Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:56 pm

Hi Marco,

Thank you very much for taking time shooting this video! :tu:

It's really clear, and it answers quite well my question.

As you pointed out, sounds like it becomes hoarse when osc 2 gets high pitched. I guess it comes from osc 1 FM algorithm, and that we would get the same effect with an external high pitched osc modulating osc 1.

Though not totally unpleasing, that's a bit annoying since it seems to prevent getting some of those clean and very metallic tones one can get with a high pitched modulating signal. Except that point, FM seems quite usable.

Thanks again,

Cheers,

Julien

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matcsat
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Post by matcsat » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:51 pm

Hi,
julubudu wrote:I guess it comes from osc 1 FM algorithm
My guess too, maybe addressable in future firmware update.
julubudu wrote:the same effect with an external high pitched osc modulating osc 1
i didn't captured it on camera but the behaviour is the same with other osc.
julubudu wrote:it seems to prevent getting some of those clean and very metallic tones one can get with a high pitched modulating signal
actually a few algorithms can get you in those territory.
This is the reason because i like this module and the limited extension of the FM doesn't bother me too much
julubudu wrote:Except that point, FM seems quite usable
Yes.
julubudu wrote:Thanks again
you're welcome.

Marco.

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Post by Zentek » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:34 am

matcsat wrote:Hi,
i attempted a video from your request.
Thank you for the video. :tu:

Eric
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julubudu
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Post by julubudu » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:04 am

Hi,

Thanks again for your answer, Marco. And thanks to Eric for coming to this topic.
matcsat wrote:
julubudu wrote:it seems to prevent getting some of those clean and very metallic tones one can get with a high pitched modulating signal
actually a few algorithms can get you in those territory.
Probably. Actually I'm more used to analog FM. I really enjoy my Dixie II/Doepfer A-110-4 combo to this respect. But I'm in need for more oscillators (and more FM) and Klavis is a pretty serious candidate!
matcsat wrote:
julubudu wrote:I guess it comes from osc 1 FM algorithm
My guess too, maybe addressable in future firmware update.
What do you think of it, Eric? Do you think it would be technically possible to address this limitation in some future firmware version?
By the way, congratulations for what seems to be a great module, with a very well thought interface. :yay:

Best,
Julien

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Conrad
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Post by Conrad » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:18 pm

The pitch definitely seems to increase a little bit with the FM index. Doesn't this kind of defeat the purpose of TZFM?

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matcsat
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Post by matcsat » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:42 pm

Hi,
Conrad wrote:The pitch definitely seems to increase a little bit with the FM index. Doesn't this kind of defeat the purpose of TZFM?
i have to clarify: the video i made was pre firmware upgrade.
And the new firmwares addressed that, plus other nice improvement.

The peculiar thing of TZFM is how it behave when receive negative voltage.

Marco.

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Post by matcsat » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:02 pm

Hi,

i probably put it too simply about TZFM.
Here a good reading.

And i borrow one navs's reply: "...Even a TZ VCO can be affected by pitching if the modulator is not symmetrical, meaning it is riding on or contains a DC offset. That is what causes the pitching artefacts..."

Hope it helps.

Marco.

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Post by Zentek » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:58 am

julubudu wrote:I guess it comes from osc 1 FM algorithm.
What do you think of it, Eric? Do you think it would be technically possible to address this limitation in some future firmware version?
By the way, congratulations for what seems to be a great module, with a very well thought interface. :yay:

Best,
Julien
It is some time now that we thought about a new implementation for the FM.
This is now done and will be available in a few days. :sb:
We've done something quite refined compared to the usual way.

In our version, called Bipolar Zero Crossing (BZX for friends), we span the frequency range from F to -F in a perfect balanced way around the zero F point, which is found at mid-voltage (positive and negative).
(The zero F point is where the oscillator is stopped.)

it means that at full CV (positive or negative), you reach exactly the frequency you initially started from, but cycling backwards.
It also implies that a bipolar modulation will reverse the wave direction twice, once when positive and once when negative.
This symmetrical frequency behavior eases tonal sound generation which can be tricky when doing through zero FM.

The code is done, we still need to update the manual, make some video, etc.
Please keep with us; it shouldn't be too long to get the firmware update 8-)
Last edited by Zentek on Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by matcsat » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:15 am

Hi,
Zentek wrote: ... we thought about a new implementation for the FM ...
now done and will be available in a few days ...
great news.

Marco.

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Post by Pighood » Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:56 am

:fap: :fap:
*phnert*

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Post by esotericmetal » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:25 am

This module just keeps getting better!

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Post by Pighood » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:28 am

So is it correct that the implementation in 1.16 does not need activation through a menu?
*phnert*

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Post by matcsat » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:36 am

Pighood wrote:So is it correct that the implementation in 1.16 does not need activation through a menu?
No,

it's one of the four possible roles of FM/AM input and you have to select one after long press of LFO/AM button.

Marco.

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Re:

Post by brandonlogic » Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:31 am

julubudu wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:56 pm

As you pointed out, sounds like it becomes hoarse when osc 2 gets high pitched. I guess it comes from osc 1 FM algorithm, and that we would get the same effect with an external high pitched osc modulating osc 1.

Though not totally unpleasing, that's a bit annoying since it seems to prevent getting some of those clean and very metallic tones one can get with a high pitched modulating signal. Except that point, FM seems quite usable.

Thanks again,

Cheers,

Julien
So this issue has been completely taken care of in the current firmware?

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Re: Re:

Post by Zentek » Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:40 am

brandonlogic wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:31 am
So this issue has been completely taken care of in the current firmware?
Several requirements are mentioned throughout the thread.
The code is currently at version 1.33; I would need a precisely defined request as to what to check in order to reply adequately. :hmm: :oops:
Please ask. Thank you :tu:
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Re: Klavis Twin Waves, some demo of the FM capabilities?

Post by Mabuse » Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:23 pm

any fm examples out there of the TW with the current firmware?

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Re: Klavis Twin Waves, some demo of the FM capabilities?

Post by johannes » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:51 pm

how far can one go with this module on its own in terms of fm?
cross modulation of vco 1 and 2?
basic 2 operator fm ala dx7?

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Re: Klavis Twin Waves, some demo of the FM capabilities?

Post by Zentek » Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:47 am

johannes wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:51 pm
how far can one go with this module on its own in terms of fm?
cross modulation of vco 1 and 2?
basic 2 operator fm ala dx7?
Part of the answer:



In the various examples, the FM is not used, thus still available for added fun 8-)
Instead, synchronization, time reversal and wave shaping are done from osc2 to osc1. :razz:
If needed, perfect pitch relation without altering the timbre is achieved by (internally) deriving the V/Oct for both osc from the osc1 input jack.

The video is quite old, with a now obsolete firmware. In the meantime, several synthesis algorithms were added or improved.

I still should do a video dedicated to FM. :confused:
Thank you for your interest :tu:
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Re: Klavis Twin Waves, some demo of the FM capabilities?

Post by johannes » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:19 am

thanks for your answer. hmmm… the videolink is not working for me. it says its not available.?
maybe its time for a new demo where you show fm on the TW (with current firmware). :hihi:
that would be really helpful.

btw. is exp fm avaiable on the TW via V.OCT 1 or 2?

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Re: Klavis Twin Waves, some demo of the FM capabilities?

Post by Zentek » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:28 am

johannes wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:19 am
hmmm… the videolink is not working for me. it says its not available.?
There is some unavoidable "validation" delay on Youtube.
Please try again in a few hours.
Thanks.
Klavis
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Re: Klavis Twin Waves, some demo of the FM capabilities?

Post by Zentek » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:39 am

johannes wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:19 am
Is exp fm avaiable on the TW via V.OCT 1 or 2?
VCO1 and 2 each have their own V/Oct input - thus exponential.
On the VCO1 FM input, you can select between BZX-FM (Bipolar through-zero-crossing FM - a Klavis invention 8-) ), or linear FM.
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Re: Klavis Twin Waves, some demo of the FM capabilities?

Post by johannes » Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:23 am

great. good to know!

iam very curious to hear your BZX-FM… :hyper:

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Re: Klavis Twin Waves, some demo of the FM capabilities?

Post by Pighood » Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:33 pm

The FM between oscillators sounds different than everything else in my rig....sputtery and juicy when both are in audio range, and spazzy when LFO FM's audio rate. Makes a chap wanna get a second one :fap:
*phnert*

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