High-end audio in-out module?

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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by Foghorn » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:53 am

I have also used an old transformer (passive) DI box as the intermediary between Euro and the sound system.
That worked very good, as the hot Euro signal was attenuated by the transformers but became a nice warm, fuzzy sound.
The output was still a little hot at 2-1/2 volts (better than 10 volts) but went into the digital EQ on the front end of the sound system with no problems.
.
I should also say I have fried 2 DEQ 2496 units with the hot Euro signal (Beh deserves it) and finally gave up on them.

Moral of the story, attenuate-attenuate, but do it passively.

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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by pelang » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:33 am

If you wouldn't have a PassEQ with transformers i would use something like this (could be easily build as passive DIY eurorack unit)
https://www.lundahltransformers.com/product/sib15/
Lundahls_Transformers_SIB15_3.jpg
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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by LunaticSound » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:08 pm

maxl0rd wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:05 am
It’s loaded terminology of course, but this context might clarify a few things.

“Professional” equipment is largely the way it is to solve the problems that people have moving voltages effectively around a large studio or venue. This is a different problem than recording a euro rack on a small table.

One of those common problems is that the output of something is too hot for the next thing in the chain, and the solution you want there is called an inline pad, aka resistors. That will always be the most transparent solution.

If your interface has high impedance (instrument) inputs, and you are only using a few feet of cable, then padding your output down and going into that from almost any module should give good results. It demands less current from the last op amp in the output module.

If you are a good distance from the recorder, or in an especially hostile electromagnetic environment, then an output transformer is your friend. You exchange some level for isolation, and then make it up on the other end. The advantage of an actual transformer balanced “output module” here is that a well designed product will have level matched for you in a reasonable way. If you just patch into a random DI box, you may saturate it easily.

After that, there probably aren’t many products left to consider if you set the bar for pro at “drives a few hundred feet of cable into a low impedance input at least as well as a small mackie”.
Thank you.
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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by KEVINSORBO » Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:48 pm

interesting points.
So I guess so far the 3 contenders for top of the line input output modules would be :
1- Vermona TAI-4
2- ACL Audio Interface
3- GRP SYNTHESIZER EURORACK STEREO OUTPUT (Which has VU meters, but its inputs and outputs are not even 1/4inch??

https://www.schneidersladen.de/media/ca ... _31242.jpg
https://d2wclktjr2mmlu.cloudfront.net/m ... ace_01.jpg
https://www.kmraudio.com/media/catalog/ ... module.jpg
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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by ege.gonul » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:01 pm

Neve RNDI-S! It sounds sick! Be sure to get Bubblesound Reducer too reduce still too hot modular levels for soundcards.

I found a draft in my notes i guess about this topic so just pasting here this very boring off the topic note without editing (sorry for grammar mistakes, I am just tired): If any gentleman is reading this and kind enough to give some info about some pre-amps, I will be delighted. My modular signal to DAW for all channels is converting modular level to balanced signal through a first, transformer-based DI (say TAI-4 or RNDI) and then record that balanced signal with a proper sound-card. I got Apollo x4, and it sounds good with Unison preamps, which uses a field-programmable analog array (FPAA) to build input circuits of analog preamps to change impedance dynamically with resistors and capacitors (only input stages). Unison is kind of okay but not a game-changer, and sound is not a significant improvement over Babyface Pro, and it is just a little bit more detailed. Anyway, my question is, is it a wise idea to add another preamp before the soundcard? Say, WA-412 for drums or 1073 for the kick. Would it be overkill? I am just afraid that many preamps will squash the signals, and my modular will sound like a Cali surf rocker band. Also, I am greeding preamps like CAPI28, but at most, I will add a single preamp to the chain, I am wondering about would it create an excellent aggressive sound for say drum-based modular sound (without much boxy sound)? Anyway, my motto from childhood was always "too much is never enough," and i was constantly hearing sentences with the word "exaggerate" in it from my mother esp if school discipline and cops are after me (no violence but lots of property damage and cries of teachers), and sometimes childhood friends bring up stories and sometimes i couldnt believe or even remember i did those things thats why i will definitely not make a children, and also my mother always kept repeating "never have a children" its like no1 constant advice she gave to me, and she still repeats it weekly in a sarcastic way, but for Euro setup, I have to limit my this "no such thing as too much" urge for keeping Euro case compact for live performance. But in this recording-chain case, it is something which can stay at home, but in terms of sound, I don't want to get into mud again (say like VSTs). Anyway, it is not something urgent, and if anyone sees this even after a couple of months later and says, "it's wise" or just "wise." (or "unwise") It would be lovely. I willbbe stop looking at Muffwiggler. For me, all internet can be narrowed down to the section of "Modular News" at ModularGrids and Cirklon forum. Plus Bandcamp and SC once a week and CDM, RA News, Gear News once a year. My motto these days is "extreme minimalism is a form of excess.". I got so much work to do because of this stupid girl messing up my life knowingly/unknowingly, and now I have to pay debts to the school because, for the last month, every day was anxiety after anxiety with zero meaningful work because of light ptsd symptoms from acts of pure evil acts of exexgirl. I am glad its over and got no remorse and no chance of something happening like this again. Not sure if the relationship is over but no to little talk until August, that's for sure. Not everyone has pure intentions and suck love like a leech and give nothing back when one needs terribly, and on top of it, they prefer to give someone else. So fucking angry with myself anyway, it's only one month it could've been worse, and it ended with a definite resolution with no future setbacks. And zero bad feelings immediate afterwards because it was torture every day, and now I am free as a bird. And I love phantom ghost feeling in this utter solitude; fog has its depth, and you wouldn't believe the synchs, it's like 100 times stronger, and with no internet or no girl (which can only fill their own cup), for the past 3 days I am feeling like signal is much clearer and just enjoying the current medium which is based on street & signs. I prefer to stay like this because I am addicted to the magic and symbolism currently and afraid of magic would be gone with different mediums, but main pushing force of this is work of music i guess. I have to retreat to silence before mercury gathers its full power, but feeling like you got a skill to form presence whenever you have the urge/idea, so please be my guest and sorry if I had strong feelings in the past, I am just a problem child excited about a roundtable with et friends, and the only thing I got is a fine scope and a pipe. Back to the filledtopic, amm, and I don't like SSL sounds I guess (at least the eq), analog mixing is a must and not sure how hexmix sounds good with tl074, and master eq was not working, and I sent it to repair and now bass eq of two channels are not working. Buying 1k of modules everyweek for the last 6 weeks, and it is fun but i have to cut this stuff immediatly, coz for me only
Problem of modular is whenever u got new stuff esp with core stuff, all system gets confused and i always want it to be the best so i arrange it to the extreme and with live playing option parameter in function its like bobby fischer in play. These days i think how would it be to go pure analog, feeling like i experienced only 2 percent of it with this setup, 11 is my fav number these days. Anyway microing herb vapes are good, paper is heavy, if u have sleep problem like me just get sleep supplement version mindlabpro, running is everything, best high compatible with dance, 40percrnt of my happiness comes from this single activity. Whatelse, i got a tourette syndrome flat mate for the past 2 years, making so much noise, dirty, hating that guy, he is sneezing 90db atm but good as a sample source but he is kind and does best to understand me and i act the same way, but i stopped cooking at home coz i think he is putting detergant in my food, ok i am not crazy although it seems like it, but in real life, i am the most normal guy ever (but meaning is not in anyway "usual"), anyway at least friends said this to me, and i never hide anything even a single feeling from anyone but i learned hiding trick after this girl, which was like her main skill, (not a bad thing to have, it gives depths and mystery but not helpful skill if trust is not stable in the relationship, and with hardproofs of minor crimes existing), anyway i got the craziest experience seeking urge, raving was a good fit, or baikal acid i dont know, for the past 10 years i am living inhumane school just distrbed my ever playing fun part, but it is still pretty at its place, whatelse preamps and console. In signal chain noise to signal ratio is important.

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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by ege.gonul » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:06 pm

Also TAI-4 is good, any DI would work, oh also Meng Qi Please exist is really good, if you find it grab it, i use it to get headphone amps to modular, i believe it removes it headphone watt power, since it has a transformer. It sounds good from headphones out of a soundcard but I only use it for basic individual sounds, like noise source, because of heaphone amp outputs have this high power output with weird impedances, and i need an extra DAC.

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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by KEVINSORBO » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:27 pm

Dude " ege.gonul", that long reply just above was definitely a reading experience.
Your line of thought is similar to a wogglebug on an extreme setting.
It makes me interested to listen to what music you might make.

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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by BasariStudios » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:11 pm

In my humble opinion High End Audio IO and Eurorack can not go in the same sentence.
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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by andybizarre » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:41 am

BasariStudios wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:11 pm
In my humble opinion High End Audio IO and Eurorack can not go in the same sentence.
Why is that? With proper case planning and module selection one can definetely get studio-grade sonics out of the rack. Lately I did a DIY build of my case with a large linear PSU, busbars and ACL Eve-1 busboards, and within this case my TAI-4 straight into the Apogee converter gives me 100db of dynamics. When I patch an clean type, open (=fully offset) VCA (Intellijel QuadVCA) into the TAI-4, I still get about 95db. That is an improvement of about 20db over my messy case situation I had before (lots of small cases with switching type PSUs, flying or Doepfer busboards). My grounding issues have gone as well. Couldn`t be happier.

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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by LunaticSound » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:53 am

KEVINSORBO wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:27 pm
Dude " ege.gonul", that long reply just above was definitely a reading experience.
Your line of thought is similar to a wogglebug on an extreme setting.
It makes me interested to listen to what music you might make.
Indeed!
WTB: ARC ANN

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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by Aiyn Zahev » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:46 am

The Tai-4 is a great module. It’s practical and it does add a little something to the sound. My target for my modular isn’t the highest fidelity I can get, I have that in software, I’m aiming for something more interesting then perfect.

However, while I like what the transformers do in general, it’s also true that deep bass frequencies are affected. I’ve noticed that kicks will lose a little weight.

I think a good combo would be the TAI-4 and the non-transformer module twin-out too, if you’re concerned about very low end.

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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by KEVINSORBO » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:19 am

Aiyn Zahev wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:46 am
The Tai-4 is a great module. It’s practical and it does add a little something to the sound. My target for my modular isn’t the highest fidelity I can get, I have that in software, I’m aiming for something more interesting then perfect.

However, while I like what the transformers do in general, it’s also true that deep bass frequencies are affected. I’ve noticed that kicks will lose a little weight.

I think a good combo would be the TAI-4 and the non-transformer module twin-out too, if you’re concerned about very low end.
Did you actually notice and can measure this? How do you actually mean it? If you dont push the transformers did you notice by a frequency analyser or any other form of metering that you lose low end? Can you please confirm this is a fact as it does change things.
To be honest I doubt this to be true unless you push them to extreme.. I dont think with such a device you will lose any low end if you do a basic adjustment (no pushing, clipping etc).
Thanks

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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by damase » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:07 am

LunaticSound wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:53 am
KEVINSORBO wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:27 pm
Dude " ege.gonul", that long reply just above was definitely a reading experience.
Your line of thought is similar to a wogglebug on an extreme setting.
It makes me interested to listen to what music you might make.
Indeed!
haha. came for sound opinions on output transformers... got... whatever this can be called :lol: . nothin but love though it was a good read

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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by damase » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:10 am

Aiyn Zahev wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:46 am
. I’ve noticed that kicks will lose a little weight.
is this only when you push the levels too hot? lots of distortions start to lose low end and transient when pushed, can be useful... just wondering if at regular levels the kick drum sound normal with tai-4

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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by StillNotWorking » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:00 am

If you want to sum your modular to stereo with some hi-end studio mojo one way to do it could be to pick up a used summing mixer.

10-15 years ago a popular trend where to sum out of the box. A lot of analog summing boxes appeared on the marked from simple passive resistor network to expensive clones of Neve and other vintage console desk's internal summing circuits to add some coloration.

As more knowledge has emerged with regards to summing in the box these devices has become obsolete in many studios and are often going for cheap. Second hand marked disperse also from those still in marked to buy analog summers often focus more on modern color boxes.

Most often these summing mixers consist of 8 or 16 ballanced stereo inputs with level scaled to come from your typical DAC outputs. Interface could simply be a passive 3.5mm jack panel to 25 pin d-Sub on your modular.

Going this route you soon find it also would be nice with mute buttons, ballance and level controls on your modular. Which of course could be implemented with loads of VCA's and a few switches.
looking for service manual for the Clavia ddrum AT or ddrum III

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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by andybizarre » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:46 am

KEVINSORBO wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:19 am
Aiyn Zahev wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:46 am
The Tai-4 is a great module. It’s practical and it does add a little something to the sound. My target for my modular isn’t the highest fidelity I can get, I have that in software, I’m aiming for something more interesting then perfect.

However, while I like what the transformers do in general, it’s also true that deep bass frequencies are affected. I’ve noticed that kicks will lose a little weight.

I think a good combo would be the TAI-4 and the non-transformer module twin-out too, if you’re concerned about very low end.
Did you actually notice and can measure this? How do you actually mean it? If you dont push the transformers did you notice by a frequency analyser or any other form of metering that you lose low end? Can you please confirm this is a fact as it does change things.
To be honest I doubt this to be true unless you push them to extreme.. I dont think with such a device you will lose any low end if you do a basic adjustment (no pushing, clipping etc).
Thanks
If you patch a nice clean Dixie sine wave in the TAI-4, it`ll sound buzzy as soon as the red indicator LED on the TAI-4 starts blinking. With full Euro audio level this usually begins in the lowest gain setting. However, with harmonically rich or mixed stem material this won`t be noticable except in the higher gain settings. I sometimes use the Vermona as an effect - I patch it as an insert from my studio patchbay, with inputs direct to outputs. Driven hard, the transformers saturate heavily and cause a combined gain reduction of about 6db. Self patched it`s a compressor on its own. :cloud:

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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by KEVINSORBO » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:01 am

KEVINSORBO wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:19 am
Aiyn Zahev wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:46 am
The Tai-4 is a great module. It’s practical and it does add a little something to the sound. My target for my modular isn’t the highest fidelity I can get, I have that in software, I’m aiming for something more interesting then perfect.

However, while I like what the transformers do in general, it’s also true that deep bass frequencies are affected. I’ve noticed that kicks will lose a little weight.

I think a good combo would be the TAI-4 and the non-transformer module twin-out too, if you’re concerned about very low end.
Did you actually notice and can measure this? How do you actually mean it? If you dont push the transformers did you notice by a frequency analyser or any other form of metering that you lose low end? Can you please confirm this is a fact as it does change things.
To be honest I doubt this to be true unless you push them to extreme.. I dont think with such a device you will lose any low end if you do a basic adjustment (no pushing, clipping etc).
Thanks



Thanks for that input.
So in your experience with it, if I use the TAI-2 and gain stage it correctly so that it wont go red, could I still keep the roundness of the low end of e.g that sine wave, keep the sound intact and not break it with the transformers?
I am mainly interested in keeping the sound as intact and colourless as possible, just have a sturdy good output. I have the overstayer modular channel after the chain for driving things.
I just want to get out in stereo xlr from the eurorack :) Would the TAI-2 let me gain stage it to achieve that?

Best

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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by Aiyn Zahev » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:12 pm

I guess i can take a look at measurements , but now that I think of it I think I was clipping the audio a bit. On a side note if you do clip it you get really nice loudness.

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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by mishka » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:49 pm

Ok. As i‘m also interested in an output module i‘d like to add two not already mentioned modules.

https://github.com/whimsicalraps/RIP_DIY

http://www.addacsystem.com/en/products/ ... /addac800x

As the topic says ‚high end‘ i think those two could fit in here. As one is a diy only i don‘t know. But what about the addac? Ideas? Hands on experiences?

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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by mishka » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:55 pm

Ok. They do not fit because they only have outputs... but add a

https://joranalogue.com/collections/eur ... /receive-2

and they should. Dream team?
Last edited by mishka on Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by KEVINSORBO » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:10 pm

mishka wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:55 pm
Ok. They do not fit because they only have outputs... but add a

https://joranalogue.com/collections/eur ... transmit-2

and they should. Dream team?
Very true
Together with this :
Joranalogue Receive 2 Eurorack Input Module (Rx2)

But these two Joranalogue designs if you add them up they cost more than the vermona :(

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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by khyber » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:39 pm

Two separate modules, but I always liked the look of Befaco's Instrument interface V4 and Output V3

Image
Image

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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by mishka » Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:43 pm

Of course you are right. But as always the best comes at a cost.

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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by KEVINSORBO » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:03 am

mishka wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:43 pm
Of course you are right. But as always the best comes at a cost.
That pretty much true in general, you get what you pay for.
But would you say the Joranalogue is higher quality then the Vermona?
I would think they re in the same league and would lean towards the vermona been slightly more pro... But thats just an assumption on my end :)

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Re: High-end audio in-out module?

Post by hawkfuzz » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:42 am

They both work, get the cheaper. I don't think it's anything you'll notice other than how much you paid.
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